I have a chip on my shoulder, but not in my card!

[umfundi]

On a recent trip to Europe (the Netherlands) I found I could not use a credit card to buy an inter-city train ticket, because none of my cards have an embedded chip. It took some scrambling to find the cash.

Now, I have called my credit card providers to see if I can get a card with a chip. AMEX said no. M/C said yes, but walked me through what was suspiciously like an application for a new card.

What is the advice for US credit card holders to get chip-enabled cards to use in Europe?

Keith

[Archie Sinclair]

I don't think you're going to be able to get a card with a chip ("EMV") without getting a new card. I doubt that it is worth it.

The major card companies say they will be rolling out EMV on a large scale in the United States sometime in the future. But that is probably years from now, and it may never happen due to opposition from American retailers.

[livesoft]

The solution is to buy a train ticket from a clerk in the ticket office and not from a chip-only machine/kiosk.

[Tabulator]

Even though I have a credit card from Chase with a chip in it, I don't think it is actually the same thing. So whenever I travel abroad I never assume the card will work all the time. All one can do is get a card with a chip, and be ready for even that card to fail sometimes. On one hand it is frustrating that Visa and MasterCard can't unify their standards globally. On the other hand, we should be thankful that our cards work at all in other countries.

[umfundi]

The solution is to buy a train ticket from a clerk in the ticket office and not from a chip-only machine/kiosk.

I did. The clerk was also chip only.

That's how I found out why my card would not work in the machine.

Keith

[livesoft]

What country and between which 2 cities? I have to wonder if the clerk was pulling your leg and being unfriendly.

[Gnirk]

We could use a swipe card (this is what the Europeans call our non-chip credit cards) with the ticket person in London, but not at the machines.
We were told many times that Americans really don't have any security with their credit cards. In Europe and the UK, cards with chips also require a pin, and the waiters used a small hand-held machine at our table to scan my daughter's chip card, and then she entered her pin; her card never leaves her sight. In Paris, they brought their "swipe machines" to the table when we used our American credit cards.

[umfundi]

Even though I have a credit card from Chase with a chip in it, I don't think it is actually the same thing. So whenever I travel abroad I never assume the card will work all the time. All one can do is get a card with a chip, and be ready for even that card to fail sometimes. On one hand it is frustrating that Visa and MasterCard can't unify their standards globally. On the other hand, we should be thankful that our cards work at all in other countries.

Sorry. Classify me among the customers who are pissed off that it does not work.

And, please: Don't even get me started on cell phones. Or, region coded DVDs, ...

On the flip side, did you notice that the ketchup ("tomato sauce") is so much better over there?

Keith

[expat]

BofA recently sent me a chip enabled card however there is no PIN (you have to sign instead) so it might not work at the ticket kiosks.

[umfundi]

What country and between which 2 cities? I have to wonder if the clerk was pulling your leg and being unfriendly.

Netherlands. Schipol to the Hague. A month ago.

I couldn't figure out why the machine would not accept my card, so I went to the counter. There was no sign at the machine, but there was a small sign at the counter that credit cards had to have chips.

Keith

[umfundi]

BofA recently sent me a chip enabled card however there is no PIN (you have to sign instead) so it might not work at the ticket kiosks.

I called AMEX / Costco. They said, no can do.

I called MasterCard/BofA. They are sending me a card with a chip and a PIN.

I did not try Visa.

Keith

[mikeast]

I live in Europe ( for 2 years now) and I don't have a card with a chip in it. If I can't use a credit card, I just get cash out of the
nearest ATM.

[umfundi]

We could use a swipe card (this is what the Europeans call our non-chip credit cards) with the ticket person in London, but not at the machines.
We were told many times that Americans really don't have any security with their credit cards. In Europe and the UK, cards with chips also require a pin, and the waiters used a small hand-held machine at our table to scan my daughter's chip card, and then she entered her pin; her card never leaves her sight. In Paris, they brought their "swipe machines" to the table when we used our American credit cards.

Same thing in South Africa. They swipe the card once and then print the receipt on a small hand-held device in full view.

Except for the ketchup, I do not have an opinion on which is best. Please just give me a solution that works in both places.

Keith

[kramer]

Can one pay at the machine with cash?

Does the clerk accept cash (although that requires waiting in line)?

[umfundi]

Can one pay at the machine with cash?

Does the clerk accept cash (although that requires waiting in line)?

Yes.

Yes. Except there is a surcharge for using the clerk.

I was not ready to use cash, and was confused about why my credit card was refused by the machine. This thread is not about my complaint about that experience, it is about my search for a card that will work in the future.

Keith

[umfundi]

I don't think you're going to be able to get a card with a chip ("EMV") without getting a new card. I doubt that it is worth it.

The major card companies say they will be rolling out EMV on a large scale in the United States sometime in the future. But that is probably years from now, and it may never happen due to opposition from American retailers.

Why the opposition? I am not asking that they speak Dutch, just that they take my credit card.

Keith

[aurora]

We encountered the same problem when we were in the Loire Valley in France. We needed gas and had great difficulty finding a gas station that would accept our card and most of the gas stations in the area had no attendants to swipe our card.

We have subsequently obtained a chip and pin card from the Local Govt Credit Union in NC. Not sure this would be of assistance to you since they have restrictive membership requirements but that card has come in handy for our trips to Europe.

[interplanetjanet]

The major card companies say they will be rolling out EMV on a large scale in the United States sometime in the future. But that is probably years from now, and it may never happen due to opposition from American retailers.

It is interesting to me that the considerable majority of recently deployed credit/debit card terminals I have encountered in the USA appear EMV-capable - that is not to say that the infrastructure is in place to support them (it is not) but many of the actual equipment manufacturers find it easier to produce global units than to keep producing multiple terminal versions. The EMV card slot is usually on the bottom, frequently blocked off by a small removable piece of plastic that matches the housing.

I live in a reasonably civilized but not tech-crazed section of California. I have run across some statistics in the past on the average time between terminal replacement, I cannot find them now but they were shorter than I expected (<5 years).

[etarini]

I, too, want to find a card with both a magstripe (for U.S. use) and a chip-and-PIN for overseas use. I know that there are several cards available with chip-and-signature, but without a pin; those will not work for unattended purchases, like parking lots, rail/subway passes, gas stations, etc. Certainly, magstripe cards are widely, if begrudgingly, accepted in stores and restaurants, but as far as I can tell, in the absence of the pin, the chip-and-signature simply substitutes the chip proximity for the magstripe swipe.

I'd be willing to get a chip-and-pin card just for travel, even if there's an annual fee, since I'm already hooked on my two rewards cards (Delta Amex Platinum and American Airlines MasterCard Platinum).

We're visiting friends in England in May and although we haven't yet been in a situation where our magstripe card was rejected, we also haven't encountered unattended kiosks or machines. We'd rather not carry wads of cash if we can avoid it.

Does anyone have a combo magstripe/chip-and-PIN card from a U.S. card issuer?

Eric

[richard]

The only US issuers I know of with genuine chip & pin cards are credit unions, SDFCU and Andrews FCU. (There are others which are not open to the general public)

A list of chip cards is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... xdUE#gid=0 See http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html

[Cyclone]

I took an in-house class at the bank where I work recently, and I think we were told that chip-and-pin cards will be introduced to the United States starting in 2013. But I wasn't paying complete attention because I don't work with credit cards (at the bank), so maybe I didn't hear that right.

[richard]

BofA recently sent me a chip enabled card however there is no PIN (you have to sign instead) so it might not work at the ticket kiosks.

I called AMEX / Costco. They said, no can do.

I called MasterCard/BofA. They are sending me a card with a chip and a PIN.

Amex is rolling out chip cards. I'm not sure of the schedule.

Every report I've seen says BofA only issues chip & signature, not genuine chip & pin. According to BofA's credit card web page, none of their MC cards have chips. https://www.bankofamerica.com/credit-ca ... t-cards.go Please keep us posted.

[umfundi]

Please keep us posted.

So, I called all my credit card issuers. The only one that said they had a card with a chip was Bank of America. Then, they asked if I wanted a PIN. I'll let you know when it arrives.

The card I have is Bank of America MasterCard "Worldpoints". The phone number on the back of the card is 1-800-250-6628.

Among the "No" replies were Delta Airlines Amex, B of A debit M/C, and US Air M/C.

Keith

[Valuethinker]

I don't think you're going to be able to get a card with a chip ("EMV") without getting a new card. I doubt that it is worth it.

The major card companies say they will be rolling out EMV on a large scale in the United States sometime in the future. But that is probably years from now, and it may never happen due to opposition from American retailers.

Why the opposition? I am not asking that they speak Dutch, just that they take my credit card.

Keith

Because the retailers would have to pay for the terminals.

Also there may be liability shifting going on here between CC company and retailer. Certainly when CHIP and PIN came in, I know that the consumer picked up more liability for a fraudulent transaction-- at least that was the case here (UK).

[Sidney]

We encountered the same problem when we were in the Loire Valley in France. We needed gas and had great difficulty finding a gas station that would accept our card and most of the gas stations in the area had no attendants to swipe our card.

We have subsequently obtained a chip and pin card from the Local Govt Credit Union in NC. Not sure this would be of assistance to you since they have restrictive membership requirements but that card has come in handy for our trips to Europe.

Last time I was over for an extended trip (2009) there were a lot of smaller train stations that had no clerks. Machine only, chip required. As you stated, increasingly, it is getting difficult to find gas stations (also parking facilities) that are attended.

I think the CC companies will have to capitulate on this eventually. People should keep asking for it (and at the same time, tweak the banks about getting a modern transaction system so we can eliminate checks).

[richard]

So, I called all my credit card issuers. The only one that said they had a card with a chip was Bank of America. Then, they asked if I wanted a PIN. I'll let you know when it arrives.

The card I have is Bank of America MasterCard "Worldpoints". The phone number on the back of the card is 1-800-250-6628.

Among the "No" replies were Delta Airlines Amex, B of A debit M/C, and US Air M/C.

Most chip & signature cards have a pin for cash withdrawals from ATMs. This is not the same as genuine chip & pin cards. Given that you need a pin for chip & pin cards (and BofAs web page and the training of many phone agents), I'd guess they will send you a chip & signature, but the agent could be right. The only way to tell is to use it in a place that requires a chip & pin card.

Chip & signature is more useful overseas than a card without a chip, but not as good as a chip & pin card that works at unattended stations.

[richard]

Also there may be liability shifting going on here between CC company and retailer. Certainly when CHIP and PIN came in, I know that the consumer picked up more liability for a fraudulent transaction-- at least that was the case here (UK).

Consumer liability is a matter of law, not the decision of the card issuers, at least in the US.

I had thought they changed the law in the UK (after lobbying from banks and assurances there was no chance of fraud with chip & pin), but am not sure.

Retailer liability is generally lower for chip & pin, as a matter of contract between retailers and CC companies. That's one reason for hostility to mag stripe cards.

[umfundi]

I think the CC companies will have to capitulate on this eventually. People should keep asking for it.

If you've had an issue, call your credit card company. Mine seemed surprised that I could not use the card even when there was an attendant. Tell them you can get such a card from Bank of America.

I suspect competition will get them to fold pretty quickly

[Puakinekine]

The solution is to buy a train ticket from a clerk in the ticket office and not from a chip-only machine/kiosk.

We have run into situations several times where there are no ticket office clerks available. Last week in the main station in Buenos Aires we rode the train for free as there was no one to take cash and our card did not work in the machine. The guard at the turnstiles, after hearing our predicament, just let us through.

This also happened to us on the Copenhagen metro/subway several years ago, but without the friendly guard. It was a totally automated station. Finally, someone told us that we could buy tickets at the newstand/candy store upstairs and across the street. So, we and the kids trudged back up the stairs into the rain, crossed the busy street and got the tickets.

Then there was the time in Madrid.....

[jebmke]

I liked the chip and PIN Visa I had in Belgium. You could load small amount ("pocket money") on the chip that would work without the PIN so you could use it for small stuff like vending machines and parking meters without your PIN. Use the PIN for debit/CC and no PIN for pocket money stored on the chip.

[Epsilon Delta]

Even though I have a credit card from Chase with a chip in it, I don't think it is actually the same thing. So whenever I travel abroad I never assume the card will work all the time. All one can do is get a card with a chip, and be ready for even that card to fail sometimes. On one hand it is frustrating that Visa and MasterCard can't unify their standards globally. On the other hand, we should be thankful that our cards work at all in other countries.

Visa and MasterCard have unified global standards. The Europeans are not following them.

[Watty]

British Airways has Visa credit cards with the chip.

There is an annual fee but they usually have a pretty good sign up bonus.

[Mudpuppy]

FYI, once you get a chip in your card, make sure to get a Faraday cage in your wallet, lest you fall afoul of a criminal walking around a highly populated place with a device to "scan" all unprotected chips. It's not a major issue yet (unless you're in Las Vegas during DefCon/BlackHat week), but it's very easy to guard against with a Faraday cage wallet or card sleeve: http://www.google.com/search?q=faraday+cage+wallet

I have no advice for the shoulder chip

[madbrain]

FYI, once you get a chip in your card, make sure to get a Faraday cage in your wallet, lest you fall afoul of a criminal walking around a highly populated place with a device to "scan" all unprotected chips. It's not a major issue yet (unless you're in Las Vegas during DefCon/BlackHat week), but it's very easy to guard against with a Faraday cage wallet or card sleeve: http://www.google.com/search?q=faraday+cage+wallet

I have no advice for the shoulder chip

You must be talking about different kinds of chips. The chips in european credit cards are not wireless, they need to be plugged in to a terminal in order to get power to operate.

[madbrain]

Even though I have a credit card from Chase with a chip in it, I don't think it is actually the same thing. So whenever I travel abroad I never assume the card will work all the time. All one can do is get a card with a chip, and be ready for even that card to fail sometimes. On one hand it is frustrating that Visa and MasterCard can't unify their standards globally. On the other hand, we should be thankful that our cards work at all in other countries.

Visa and MasterCard have unified global standards. The Europeans are not following them.

Funny you would say that, since european credit cards have had chips in them for, oh, the better part of 20 years. The first bank card I ever had, in France, in 1994, had one.

I think the issue has more to do with the patents around smartcard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card

The first international EMV specifications didn't even exist until 1998 . Looks like it has been revised in 2000 and 2004.
Wikipedia actually says that :

"With the exception of a few countries such as the United States EMV-compliant cards and equipment are widespread. Typically, a country's national payment association, in coordination with MasterCard International, Visa International, American Express and JCB, jointly plan and implement EMV systems."

One of the major obstacles in the US is not just the cost of the terminals but of the cards . This means no more cards without annual fees. The US card issuers would not go for it.

[Mudpuppy]

FYI, once you get a chip in your card, make sure to get a Faraday cage in your wallet, lest you fall afoul of a criminal walking around a highly populated place with a device to "scan" all unprotected chips. It's not a major issue yet (unless you're in Las Vegas during DefCon/BlackHat week), but it's very easy to guard against with a Faraday cage wallet or card sleeve: http://www.google.com/search?q=faraday+cage+wallet

I have no advice for the shoulder chip

You must be talking about different kinds of chips. The chips in european credit cards are not wireless, they need to be plugged in to a terminal in order to get power to operate.

I refer primarily to all of the "near field communication"/RFID chips that one can get in cards these days, which is much more likely to be what the OP will end up getting in the USA than an EMV chip. Call me a pessimist, but I doubt that BofA can actually manage to get the right "chip" in the card.

[Epsilon Delta]

Even though I have a credit card from Chase with a chip in it, I don't think it is actually the same thing. So whenever I travel abroad I never assume the card will work all the time. All one can do is get a card with a chip, and be ready for even that card to fail sometimes. On one hand it is frustrating that Visa and MasterCard can't unify their standards globally. On the other hand, we should be thankful that our cards work at all in other countries.

Visa and MasterCard have unified global standards. The Europeans are not following them.

Funny you would say that, since european credit cards have had chips in them for, oh, the better part of 20 years. The first bank card I ever had, in France, in 1994, had one.

I think the issue has more to do with the patents around smartcard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card

The first international EMV specifications didn't even exist until 1998 . Looks like it has been revised in 2000 and 2004.
Wikipedia actually says that :

"With the exception of a few countries such as the United States EMV-compliant cards and equipment are widespread. Typically, a country's national payment association, in coordination with MasterCard International, Visa International, American Express and JCB, jointly plan and implement EMV systems."

One of the major obstacles in the US is not just the cost of the terminals but of the cards . This means no more cards without annual fees. The US card issuers would not go for it.

It's not that there aren't standards for smart cards. It's that there are standards that require merchants to accept magnetic swipe cards. Those are the standards that Europeans choose to ignore.

[umfundi]

I have no advice for the shoulder chip

Well, that's just it.

When I started this thread, I was thinking to myself: "You are about to learn more about this topic than you ever wanted to know."

Just give me the card, already!

Keith

[6miths]

We've had the chip and NFC/RFID cards in Canada for a couple of years and the cards also have the swipe strip. The NFC feature is really nice for small purchases as you just tap the card on the terminal and that is it. We have a cash back Visa as our primary card and the bank waives the annual fees.

[roymeo]

I definitely always keep my credit cards in a Faraday cage when in Europe.



http://omegarecoil.com/?p=122

[JupiterJones]

I lamented the lack of US chip-and-pin too, after a recent trip to Europe. Although truthfully, it was a only a problem exactly once (buying train tickets from a terminal... luckily we had the Euro to pay cash instead.)

But couldn't one simply get a credit card from a European bank? Perhaps opening up a bank account over there if necessary? Or would that be more trouble/cost than it's worth?

JJ

[richard]

But couldn't one simply get a credit card from a European bank? Perhaps opening up a bank account over there if necessary? Or would that be more trouble/cost than it's worth?

It's usually very hard, if not impossible, to open a bank account in a jurisdiction in which you are not a resident. There are lots of anti-terrorism, anti-money laundering, know your customer laws that make opening a new bank account difficult. For a credit card, you would need confirmation of income and foreign source income won't necessarily satisfy them.

At best, you're likely to need to leave a substantial balance or pay high fees, from what I've heard.

[29palms]

I found a chip on my chocolate cookie, so it is now a chocolate chip cookie.

[c.Alvin]

It is not that difficult to get a card with chip, if you are willing to join the Andrews Federal Credit Union. You do not have to be a federal employee. Anyone can join.


"The GlobeTrek Visa® Rewards Card is designed to work anywhere Visa® is accepted. It also comes standard with some amazing benefits, like the integrated Chip & PIN technology that uses a secure four-digit PIN for your transactions."


http://www.andrewsfcu.org/credit_cards_and_loans/credit_cards.html


Enjoy,
c.Alvin

[umfundi]

I received a new BofA "World" credit card today. It is in every respect outwardly identical to my previous card. Everything printed on the card is identical.

Nothing on the enclosed instructions indicated it is different than a regular US swipe and sign card, with an ATM PIN.

I suppose I'll get a PIN in the mail in a few days. We shall see.

Keith

[TheGreyingDuke]

My recently updated USBank Flex Perks card, renewed in July, 2012, has and EVM chip, but as far as I know, no PIN is enabled (I will check with them tomorrow.)

https://www.usbank.com/splash/credit-ca ... s-emv.html

I still have this card as it is the offspring of the original Quicken card; since it books a revenue ticket with the airlines, I can sometimes get a flight with it when the other cards come a cropper.

It does cost me $49 a year, but I have found it a useful adjunct to my fee-free Capital one card.

[Mudpuppy]

I received a new BofA "World" credit card today. It is in every respect outwardly identical to my previous card. Everything printed on the card is identical.

Nothing on the enclosed instructions indicated it is different than a regular US swipe and sign card, with an ATM PIN.

I suppose I'll get a PIN in the mail in a few days. We shall see.

Keith

If you don't see the EMV circuit interface on the card (see this picture for a reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smartcard3.png), then it sounds like you got a contactless (NFC) card (e.g. a tap-and-pay card). It might still work with EMV systems if it is the PayPass technology (which is EMV-compatible), but only if the point-of-sale unit supports tap-and-pay.

If it is a contactless card, definitely get a Faraday cage wallet or card sleeve to keep that NFC chip quiet until you want to use it.

[VictoriaF]

The only US issuers I know of with genuine chip & pin cards are credit unions, SDFCU and Andrews FCU. (There are others which are not open to the general public)

A list of chip cards is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... xdUE#gid=0 See http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-c ... ature.html

SDFCU as a source of chip & pin cards is also mentioned in the thread about the State Department Federal Credit Union. One does not need to be a State Department employee to join SDFCU.

If it is a contactless card, definitely get a Faraday cage wallet or card sleeve to keep that NFC chip quiet until you want to use it.

The same is true for the new passports with chips. Amazon.com has several relevant products, e.g., Pacsafe Luggage Rfidsafe 50 Passport and Credit Card Protector.

Victoria

[gofigure]

He could speak french in russian
He lived vicariously through himself
He once held a staring contest with his reflection and on the third day he won
His personality was so magnetic he couldn't carry a credit card

He is the world's most interesting man.

[talzara]

American Express tried to popularize smartcards in the US in the early 2000s, particularly with their Blue credit card line. They couldn't get any traction with it. They then decided to back RFID.

Smartcards face a number of obstacles to adoption in the US that they don't face in Europe.

(1) An established payment infrastructure based on magstripes. Payment cards did not really take off in Europe until the late 1990s. Thus, they were able to skip the magstripe technology, to some extent.

(2) Many more payment cards per person. PINs become much less convenient as card count increases. In 2011, the EU averaged 1.44 payment cards per capita (1). In 2009, the US averaged 5.8 payment cards per capita (2)!

(3) A demonstrated and enduring consumer preference for non-PIN transactions. In 2006, there were 16 billion signature debit transactions, 21.7 billion credit card, and 9.4 billion PIN debit (3). This is a ratio of 4-to-1. Recall also that Visa and MasterCard deliberately encouraged consumers to use signature debit, seeing it as their competitive advantage against the ATM POS networks.

---

Sources:

1. http://www.ipso.ie/?action=statistics&s ... icRef=EU05 and confirmed by card count statistics for individual countries, e.g., at http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/quickview.do?S ... 0.20.Z0Z.Z
   
2. Census Bureau: 509 million debit cards and 1,245 million credit cards in the US in 2009. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 2s1187.pdf
   
3. http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bull ... efault.htm