College Debt: Be Careful

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hazlitt777
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College Debt: Be Careful

Post by hazlitt777 »

They can dock your social security check if you haven't already paid off your student loans, or those for which you cosigned. This article brings home the point and may be good for some of our family, friends and acquaintances to read.

http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1184.html

http://www.smartmoney.com/borrow/studen ... 292084111/

Any further thoughts on this topic? I never thought people wouldn't have their loans paid off by the time they retired, but I actually just came to know some in there early 60s still paying. Scarey.
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JupiterJones
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by JupiterJones »

hazlitt777 wrote: I never thought people wouldn't have their loans paid off by the time they retired, but I actually just came to know some in there early 60s still paying. Scarey.
Sad, but true. I know some people who have just resigned themselves to having debt payments (car, student loan, etc.) pretty much for life. They've just come to see it as as regular, normal living expense, like the electrical bill. They don't see a problem with it and don't have much of a desire to change the fact.

:oops:

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hazlitt777
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by hazlitt777 »

a sobering article. How does one go about obtaining a good education but not overpaying?

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... t-for-life
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

Just piling on with linked articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/busin ... ncies.html
“I couldn’t believe the accumulated wealth they represent — for our industry [debt collection],” the consultant, Jerry Ashton, wrote in a column for a trade publication, InsideARM.com. “It was lip-smacking.”
The series on College Debt starts here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/busin ... -debt.html
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market timer
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by market timer »

Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by timmy »

.....
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

timmy wrote:...
4. Delay school start by one (plus) year and use the time to work and save – Maybe take classes at the community college in the meantime.
...
As detailed in the NYTimes series on college debt, several of the students with defaulted loans got those loans to attend community college with no job prospects afterwards.

The comments here on this thread pretty much match the comments readers made to those articles, so folks may wish to read them.

I suppose a solution is to have a new web forum: "Can I afford this college loan?" where potential debtors can ask that question. A sibling forum would be for lenders "Should we give this person a student loan?" The forum could be Suze Orman-esque with lots of loans denied and folks slapped with a dose of reality.
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staythecourse
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by staythecourse »

Someone brought up my biggest pet peave/ rant. The scam I call college education in this country. I am amazed the debt folks get into to get degrees in things that they should know have no way of paying for their education. Degrees in music, drama, art history, etc... are not going to pay off debt of 100k+ PLUS interest.

I think it will be a matter of time when folks figure out that many degrees through traditional colleges and the debt one takes on is a complete scam.

i'm not sure taking on debt of being a doctor alone is worth it unless one goes into a high paying specialty. Some young doctor couple posted on here a couple months back asking for advice and I did not have the heart to post I don't think they EVER will get out of debt until late in the careers due to the huge debt and low incomes their specialties provide.

I think parents need to be more responsible and tell their children if you want to get x degree that won't make much of a living DON'T compound the problem by going into debt as well. The answers are either change vocations OR find a cheap way to do it, i,e. community college then to public universities.

Good luck.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Leesbro63 »

market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
Interesting concept. Related to that universities should be required to own some of the student debt. If students can't make payments, the U should be on the hook for some of it.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Wagnerjb »

Leesbro63 wrote:
market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
Related to that universities should be required to own some of the student debt. If students can't make payments, the U should be on the hook for some of it.
I respectfully disagree. I pay "full price" for my two children to attend college, and as such I am paying to subsidize many children who are going for free, or at a reduced price. By having the U own some student debt, that just adds another tax to me when the students walk away from their obligations.

No thanks.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by jimbojones »

Wagnerjb wrote:
Leesbro63 wrote:
market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
Related to that universities should be required to own some of the student debt. If students can't make payments, the U should be on the hook for some of it.
I respectfully disagree. I pay "full price" for my two children to attend college, and as such I am paying to subsidize many children who are going for free, or at a reduced price. By having the U own some student debt, that just adds another tax to me when the students walk away from their obligations.

No thanks.
My university used to guarantee the loans of international students. They recently realized it wasn't a good deal due to the high default rate of the internationals. Going forward, they will offer more grants and scholarships instead. Of course, all of this is subsidized by the full-tuition-rate paying domestic students.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) is trying to address student loan issues and other issues related to students. For example,
- On 29 August 2012, the CFPB has posted a blog entry Research updates on private student loans.
- On 31 August 2012, the CFPB has posted a blog entry Student Banking 101.

The CFPB also addresses issues related to the elderly and the population at large. They welcome public participation. Washington Post recently had an article Who leaves Comedy Central to work for the government? about the young and hip spirit of the new agency.

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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Leesbro63 »

Wagnerjb wrote:
Leesbro63 wrote:
market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
Related to that universities should be required to own some of the student debt. If students can't make payments, the U should be on the hook for some of it.
I respectfully disagree. I pay "full price" for my two children to attend college, and as such I am paying to subsidize many children who are going for free, or at a reduced price. By having the U own some student debt, that just adds another tax to me when the students walk away from their obligations.

No thanks.
I just spent $200,000+ for my daughter's name-brand university education. My son is in 12th grade and I'm looking at similar. So I get it. But if universities had skin in the loan game, they'd be less likely to accept kids into programs unlikely to pay back. Both healthcare costs and education costs have spun out of control due to "skin in the game" problems.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by nisiprius »

market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
You are assuming that the function of a university is to facilitate post-graduate earnings. I do not agree with that assumption. What you are describing is "training," not "education." Reward universities for maximizing the short-term earnings achievements of graduates and in a few years the nation will face a critical shortage of poets, dreamers, and rabble-rousers.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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staythecourse wrote:Someone brought up my biggest pet peave/ rant. The scam I call college education in this country. I am amazed the debt folks get into to get degrees in things that they should know have no way of paying for their education. Degrees in music, drama, art history, etc... are not going to pay off debt . . . .
So, only those born wealthy should be able to study many of the things that make life worth living?

I've been through this rant before, so I won't repeat it all, but: the terms of student loans amount to debt peonage.

The whole program is a great subsidized piggy bank for the loan makers masquerading as responsibility. Before you get all POed at those feckless borrowers who can't handle their debt, consider that the system is designed to make it beneficial to the schools to get loans listed as "defaulted" rather than to try to arrange repayment. Back when there were phone books, they didn't even have to open one to try to find a so-called "skipped" borrower. Scam!!

Also, if you read the article, you will find many/most of the people who get into this trap went to profit-making "colleges" that (falsely) promise jobs in currently hot industries. Learn computers!!! Sign here!!! The "entrepreneurs" who run these scams should be prosecuted rather than sheltered in subsidized loans with iron-clad repayment terms.

I am paying student loans. My next birthday is 70 - that's seven-oh. I defended a dissertation in Humanities at age 57. Given the level of discrimination against older workers, it's an open question whether spending the money on vocational ed (Learn C++!!) would have paid off any better, but I like what I do which is worth the price of admission to the club.

Just for the heck of it, compare the default rates for those silly, impractical people who graduate with something like an MFA in Dance from Hunter College and those hard-nosed realists who (usually do not) graduate with a cert in IT-something from Entrepreneur.edu. I'll bet on the artists!

Vic
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by legio XX »

nisiprius wrote:You are assuming that the function of a university is to facilitate post-graduate earnings. I do not agree with that assumption. What you are describing is "training," not "education." Reward universities for maximizing the short-term earnings achievements of graduates and in a few years the nation will face a critical shortage of poets, dreamers, and rabble-rousers.
Bravo Nisi!

Vic
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by btenny »

More parents need to help there kids say NO to student loans and stupid degrees and so forth. The issue is just poor decision making on many peoples part. Just like high cost mutual funds and high cost advisors, poor choices. My kids both went to college and I paid for in-state tuition. This was in the 1990s so this was a good amount of money but it did not break my retirement plans. However I did have to bribe one child to stay in-state and not go to a similar school out of state. Both the out of state schools were over $28K per year back then so a 4 year degree was $120K or so. Very big money that would have definitely impacted my retirement plans. There was a discussion of loans but they were not pursued at my insistance.

I also see a neighbor who is putting both his kids thru $30K per year grad school. One child is in his mid 20s and seems to me to be milking Dad (I know the kids) as he could get a good job tomorrow but would rather go to easy grad school. Plus if he went to work his job would likely pay for his MS degree for free. The other kid is getting a MA degree to go with her useless BA degree. The dad is mowing lawns and cleaning houses and managing other peoples rental properties to pay their loan payments and tuition. He is 60ish and was previously retired. This will teach his kids nothing but dependency IMO........

There is just no explaining some peoples choices and if they have to live with these poor choices I guess this is OK....
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by VictoriaF »

legio XX wrote:
nisiprius wrote:You are assuming that the function of a university is to facilitate post-graduate earnings. I do not agree with that assumption. What you are describing is "training," not "education." Reward universities for maximizing the short-term earnings achievements of graduates and in a few years the nation will face a critical shortage of poets, dreamers, and rabble-rousers.
Bravo Nisi!

Vic
legio XX wrote:I am paying student loans. My next birthday is 70 - that's seven-oh. I defended a dissertation in Humanities at age 57.
Bravo Vic!

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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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History is replete with artists, musicians, poets, dancers, actors, and writers who didn't go to college and/or died penniless and in debt. So I don't think going to college has anything major to do with these things.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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I think a lot of these discussions overlook something fundamental: colleges aren't trying to reduce tuition costs. As a thought experiment, if you were charged with reducing tuition costs, what would you do? Here is my list, which is largely based on the book Higher Education?

1. Close down all the athletic programs. Sell off the stadiums, sports facilities for students, fire all the staff that maintain them and run them. We're sorry, but due to the the cost of providing our core mission becoming untenable, we must stop providing the "extras".

2. End tenure. While it's true that many of those old, expensive professors might be worth the cost of multiple younger professors, that's probably not true for every case. We're sorry, but we simply can't afford to enter into these types of labor contracts anymore.

3. Be smarter about space. Both universities I was at expanded (physically) while I was there. But they already had lots of lush, beautiful courtyards that they could have built in. Instead of purchasing new land, just build on what you have and pass the savings onto tuition.

Others have already mentioned it, but there is a structural reason why colleges are not incentivized to reduce tuition: students can "afford" any tuition price because the government will guarantee a loan for it. The colleges get paid no matter what. Note that this is the same system that was (and still is) present in the housing market, where the government was guaranteeing all mortgage loans. A loan originator doesn't need to care if you can pay if the government will guarantee the loan. Peter Schiff expands on this reasoning in The Real Crash.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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Booper wrote:2. End tenure. While it's true that many of those old, expensive professors might be worth the cost of multiple younger professors, that's probably not true for every case. We're sorry, but we simply can't afford to enter into these types of labor contracts anymore.
Tenure is not a labor contract, or at least, it is not a typical labor contract. Tenure enables a professor to focus on his research, write papers and books, review papers and books written by others, organize conferences, and be engaged in other activities that don't lend themselves to measurements.

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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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I find parents to be part of the problem of crushing college loan debt. They want their kids to attend a "name" school, and those are very expensive. That concept is way overblown. Or if the kid wants a top name school, they don't quibble. No wonder schools keep raising tuition and fees at a breakneck pace - the customers don't seem to care.

Schools pile on staff positions to be "relevant." UC San Diego has a Vice Chancellor for equity, diversity, and inclusion, a Chancellor’s Diversity Office, an associate vice chancellor for faculty equity, an assistant vice chancellor for diversity, graduate diversity coordinators, a staff diversity liaison, an undergraduate student diversity liaison, a graduate student diversity liaison, a chief diversity officer, a director of development for diversity initiatives, not to mention the Office of Academic Diversity and Equal Opportunity and the directors of the Cross-Cultural Center, the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Resource Center, and the Women’s Center. Bet all that doesn't come cheap. How do all those people stay busy every day? Meanwhile the UC President says they have cut to the bone and need more money.

Someday there will be a university that focuses on education without the luxurious dorms and meaningless fluff staff positions, and will turn out well-educated graduates at a third the cost of the typical school.

It's well beyond time for students and parents to focus on cost-effective education and let the schools that are out of control see a loss of enrollment. I am happy to hire a high achiever from a less-than-prestigious university who has worked his/her way through school over a so-so graduate of an Ivy League school, knowing that 90% of Harvard seniors graduate with honors anyway. I can tell who is going to be motivated and it's not based on where their degree is from.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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Vic and Nisi I'm sorry that you feel that way. Everything I read says we need to drastically redirect our education systems NOW to more math, science and technology to have any hope of competing in the world. Our poor choices of college majors and high expenses for these poor choices are killing our economy. Here is study of university education in many leading countries around the world. We are way down the list of countries in percentage of these degrees that will provide for our futures.....

http://rabareview.com/2011/04/20/colleg ... -of-majors

Here are a few quotes from the article and the associated study..

In fact, looking at the percentage of degrees by field of study across the world, education in America is clearly trailing in engineering, math, and science. 30% of German students graduate with a science or engineering degree, 28% of French, 25% of Japanese students do the same. In America, only 16% of college students graduate with a degree in any science, math, or engineering field of any kind. The world average is 23%, that’s sad.

Many students are turned off by engineering for this very reason, it isn’t fun. A large part of education in America is about having fun.

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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by staythecourse »

legio XX wrote:I am paying student loans. My next birthday is 70 - that's seven-oh. I defended a dissertation in Humanities at age 57. Given the level of discrimination against older workers, it's an open question whether spending the money on vocational ed (Learn C++!!) would have paid off any better, but I like what I do which is worth the price of admission to the club.
I'm sorry, but I see that as a violation of a key concept of financial responsibilty of limiting one's debt as much as you can. Taking on debt to get more education to further one's career prospects is great. Taking on debt to get an education in something that gets one to pay debt past age 70 just does not make sense. No way around it.

What if you were disabled in a car crash at age 60?? You would have happily defaulted on payments vs. cut into your retirement accounts to pay off a debt you didn't even need. If you want to learn about humanities great.... just buy a book and read about it. That is NOT a job it is a hobby. There are reasons humanities, art, drama, etc.. die poor they are NOT supposed to make a living on it which is fine if you have the wealth to not have to pay off debt.

I see no difference between this financial irresponsibility then a couple buying a house they can't afford. Don't confuse outcome with strategy.

Good luck.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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prudent wrote: Schools pile on staff positions to be "relevant." UC San Diego has a Vice Chancellor for equity, diversity, and inclusion, a Chancellor’s Diversity Office, an associate vice chancellor for faculty equity, an assistant vice chancellor for diversity, graduate diversity coordinators, a staff diversity liaison, an undergraduate student diversity liaison, a graduate student diversity liaison, a chief diversity officer, a director of development for diversity initiatives, not to mention the Office of Academic Diversity and Equal Opportunity and the directors of the Cross-Cultural Center, the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Resource Center, and the Women’s Center. Bet all that doesn't come cheap. How do all those people stay busy every day? Meanwhile the UC President says they have cut to the bone and need more money.
My daughter is leaving for UC SD in 2 weeks. This does not make me feel good for paying 31K the 1st year of her college. Per Parkinson's Law, I am sure they will find something meaningful to fill their day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law

"Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion."
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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Leesbro63 wrote:
market timer wrote:Universities should be given a 0-20% equity share in the first 10 years of post-graduate earnings (negotiated at the time of admission) with a policy of no loans, no tuition, no bribes, and no parental extortion. We'd solve the student loan problem and improve the labor skills / labor demand mismatch in one admissions cycle.
Interesting concept. Related to that universities should be required to own some of the student debt. If students can't make payments, the U should be on the hook for some of it.
Universities that have too many students defaulting on federal student loans can lose their entire federal student support (loans and grants) already. That's part of the current system, although perhaps not exercised as often as some would like.
Leesbro63 wrote:I just spent $200,000+ for my daughter's name-brand university education. My son is in 12th grade and I'm looking at similar. So I get it. But if universities had skin in the loan game, they'd be less likely to accept kids into programs unlikely to pay back. Both healthcare costs and education costs have spun out of control due to "skin in the game" problems.
a) That price tag is associated with name-brand universities, not universities in general. A public university education for 4 years still is under 6 figures in most states; less if the first 2 years are at a community college. It's particularly cheap if you can keep them at home, because room & board is sometimes as much as (or more than) tuition in some areas, and out-of-state tuition is something to be avoided for most people. b) "Skin in the game" is no guarantee of anything, much less of reasonable costs.
Booper wrote:1. Close down all the athletic programs. Sell off the stadiums, sports facilities for students, fire all the staff that maintain them and run them. We're sorry, but due to the the cost of providing our core mission becoming untenable, we must stop providing the "extras".
They don't have to close them down and sell them off. However, making them self-supporting (e.g. all maintenance, equipment, coaching, and staff costs paid out of moneys raised by the athletics program via sales and fundraising) would be a good first step. The advantage for those schools with prestigious athletics programs is "self-supporting" might actually be "profit-making". Meanwhile, those without prestigious athletics programs will not be continually forking money into athletics in the hopes they will become profit-making at some nebulous point in the future.
Booper wrote:2. End tenure. While it's true that many of those old, expensive professors might be worth the cost of multiple younger professors, that's probably not true for every case. We're sorry, but we simply can't afford to enter into these types of labor contracts anymore.
I constantly see this in a variety of educational debates and I just don't get it. Why is there such a hatred (and complete misunderstanding) of what tenure means in academia? It does not mean "expensive". It does not mean "bad teacher can't be fired". It doesn't mean "we have to pay the old guy until he croaks or finally retires". It's just another way of designating seniority, e.g. establishing an order of lay-off that cannot just be changed at the whim of an administrator.

In California, a tenured professor can still be laid off during budget troubles. The only contractual protections during lay-offs that are provided by tenure in California's two university systems is to force the administration to provide actual proof of budgetary troubles, which I suppose irks those in the business realm who just want the ability to fire at will for no cause whatsoever, and to follow an order of seniority, which also probably irks the fire-at-will crowd. And a tenured professor can be fired out-right if they break certain rules, regulations, and/or codes of conduct, with the only contractual protection being the right to file a grievance (which any faculty member has the right to file, whether they are tenured or not).
Booper wrote:3. Be smarter about space. Both universities I was at expanded (physically) while I was there. But they already had lots of lush, beautiful courtyards that they could have built in. Instead of purchasing new land, just build on what you have and pass the savings onto tuition.
Do you know they purchased new land? Often times, a university has a wide amount of acreage that they are not currently using, so they lease it out to local businesses on either short-term leases (land they might want back in a few decades for expansion) or long-term leases (land they aren't planning to use for half a century or more). You can't just assume that a university which expands into a prior office-space area just purchased that land. They might have decided to not renew a lease of land they already owned. The land grants given to some universities, particularly in California, are quite huge in many cases.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by legio XX »

btenny wrote:Vic and Nisi I'm sorry that you feel that way. Everything I read says we need to drastically redirect our education systems NOW to more math, science and technology to have any hope of competing in the world. Our poor choices of college majors and high expenses for these poor choices . . .
It's not a zero-sum situation. Allowing those whose gift is for the arts or literature to pursue that will not deprive the world of a great mathematician - who might not be able to find a job anyway. I'm all for better education in the sciences. I just don't see "two cultures" as a war zone.

A good many people in the sciences are also being forced out of their fields due to lack of support for the kind of basic research that may or may not pay off down the road. I do not lack respect for engineering or computers, but I think the current sound bite of "Technology!" is just another education bubble - like "Russian!" post-Sputnik. The basic level of education is abysmal, and turning all those illiterates toward the sciences will not result in productive scientists. We need people who are literate and numerate to a much higher degree - and a bit more understanding of the value, as opposed to the price the market will bear, of both skills. It is already happening that people who got a quick marketable skill fix are out of work and unemployable - and possibly in debt up to their eyeballs.

Concerning the die-young-and-broke model for artists: Not appealing. A lot of solid education in the arts takes place on campus these days because the working artists get paying jobs teaching. That's why kids go to school to major in something like dance. And their parents will be happy because they have a real degree from a real college.

Way back when, they used to talk about the value of a liberal arts education. The idea was that if you could understand Chaucer and Dante (and a year of calculus!) and had the discipline to become moderately competent in at least one foreign language you could pretty much deal with whatever the real world would throw at you. Now they apparently want breathing plug-ins. And today's plug-in is tomorrow's long-term unemployed.

Can we split the difference?

Vic
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

On the subject of STEM education: The US can have as many scientists and engineers as it wants simply by hiring from foreign countries. Can you guess what the percentage of US citizens is in US STEM graduate schools? :)
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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staythecourse wrote: I'm sorry, but I see that as a violation of a key concept of financial responsibilty of limiting one's debt as much as you can. Taking on debt to get more education to further one's career prospects is great. Taking on debt to get an education in something that gets one to pay debt past age 70 just does not make sense. . . . . If you want to learn about humanities great.... just buy a book and read about it. That is NOT a job it is a hobby.
Buy a book and read about it? Would you say that about fractals or cosmology? This represents such a degree of ignorance that I don't know where to begin.

Let me try: In order to even begin research I had to acquire - and pass comps in - three foreign languages (beyond the one I had to pass for the BA way back when). Then I had to do the research and write the book (a dissertation is book-length). It might not make sense to you, but it makes sense to my peer group who honored one of my recent articles with an award for an outstanding article by - get this - "a junior scholar." Not having a full-time tenure-track position qualifies me as "junior" grey hair and all. It does take a sense of humor . . . .

A "hobby?"

It might not make sense to you, but I wouldn't trade it for your 401-K which is no doubt much fatter than mine. Whooppee!

Vic
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

But legio XX, you are living proof of the edict that one should work a few years before going into debt to pay for a college degree? Good on you!
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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I agree that the college costs are high. I refused to pay full tuition for my daughter to go to biomedical engineering at Jonhs Hopkins or Duke two years ago. Instead she went to U of Wisconsin, Madison at 30% of the cost (state U). She is doing well and recently won a student research scholarship from a company which manufactures lab reagents/supplies. Six scholarships were given and 2 of the co winners were from MIT and Duke. Only time will tell if my decision was wrong but I do believe that a good student can do well at a decent state U.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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livesoft wrote:On the subject of STEM education: The US can have as many scientists and engineers as it wants simply by hiring from foreign countries. Can you guess what the percentage of US citizens is in US STEM graduate schools? :)
Approximately the same percentage as you'll find studying in the university library on a Friday night.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Leesbro63 »

Somewhat tangential but mentioned above: Sports. It's become an odd thing that big time big money entertainment (mainly college football but also basketball and other sports) has been grafted onto academia. The two really are not related. Oddly, for most universities, the teams bring in net money. So getting away from the Taj-Mahal stadiums really has no bearing on lower education costs and in fact might cause costs to rise. But as the whole Penn State (I went there, for full disclosure) tragedy has spotlighted, the relationship between sports/big money entertainment and education is awkward at best.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by legio XX »

ram wrote:I agree that the college costs are high. I refused to pay full tuition for my daughter to go to biomedical engineering at Jonhs Hopkins or Duke two years ago. Instead she went to U of Wisconsin, Madison at 30% of the cost (state U). She is doing well and recently won a student research scholarship from a company which manufactures lab reagents/supplies. Six scholarships were given and 2 of the co winners were from MIT and Duke. Only time will tell if my decision was wrong but I do believe that a good student can do well at a decent state U.
Hey, congratulations! Not an easy school to get into, and I would bet that program is very competitive. You must have done several somethings right!

Vic
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

Sports provides plenty of jobs for many folks who might otherwise have no jobs (sportscasters, journalists, color commentators, medical professional, line painters, ticket collectors, food vendors, tatoo artists, etc, etc), so Sports is not to be discounted.

Sports teaches many things to the folks who participate in them. For example, my kids had to sell Team Calendars door-to-door. What a great learning experience that is directly related to what they might have to do have after they graduate from college with STEM degrees.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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prudent wrote:I find parents to be part of the problem of crushing college loan debt. They want their kids to attend a "name" school, and those are very expensive. That concept is way overblown. Or if the kid wants a top name school, they don't quibble. No wonder schools keep raising tuition and fees at a breakneck pace - the customers don't seem to care.
It's not quite that simple. Often parents just don't know. Either because they are financially illiterate themselves (and Bogleheads probably has 33% of posts about illerate adults, so it's epidemic) or, like in my case, a generation is a long time. I'm 52 and the whole cost/value equation for college has changed drastically since I went. But if the student loans did not exist, colleges would have to find different ways to price themselves. The availabiity of "free" loans is the problem ("free" quotes because that's how it appears to an 18 year old and to many of their parents)
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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Sorry Livesoft but hiring foreign students to work in the STEM area is not the panecia solution. These people miss their families and homes and most will eventually return to their home countries. Only 7% of the India students currently enrolled as graduate students plan to stay in America long term. They will take their skills and our jobs with them...... See below.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/few-i ... -u-s/29073

Plus there are the cultural issue of how a foreign student does things differently than a US born and raised student that make them a poor fit for many types of jobs. Think US cell phone game developer or fast food tablet software person, etc. Plus many cannot fill lots of US jobs for other of reasons like security clearances or language skills (sales positions), etc..

I was big advocate of using foreign facilites and people way back when to solve our labor crisis in the semiconducter area back in the 1970s. Well we moved some assembly first to Mexico and then to Malaysia and now to China. Everyone knows how that has worked out for the US. Not good. What do you expect if we use foreign students for our STEM needs long term?????

Bill
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

btenny wrote:Sorry Livesoft ....but hiring foreign students to work in the STEM area is not the panecia solution. These people miss their families and homes and most will eventually return to their home countries. Only 7% of the India students currently enrolled as graduate students plan to stay in America long term. They will take their skills and our jobs with them...... See below.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/few-i ... -u-s/29073
You have mis-read that blog post. "plan to stay in America long-term" is clearly not the same as what is found in the executive summary of the survey:
The results of this new survey of nearly 1,000 Indians who are currently undertaking, or have completed, graduate study in the US suggest that a great opportunity exists to attract this group back to India: only 8% of the sample strongly prefer to remain in the US, with the remainder either planning to return to India (preferably after some work experience abroad) or undecided.
Actually, see Figure IV.1 in the survey. Only 21% of respondents show a preference for going back or being back. And this is just Indian, so does not include all the other countries in the world (of which there are many!).
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Jack »

btenny wrote:Sorry Livesoft but hiring foreign students to work in the STEM area is not the panecia solution. These people miss their families and homes and most will eventually return to their home countries. Only 7% of the India students currently enrolled as graduate students plan to stay in America long term.
I think you are missing lifesoft's point. The reason more students don't go into STEM vocations is that they rationally see that it isn't worth it financially. Employers cast them aside whenever times get tough and replace them with an endless supply of cheaper foreign scientists and engineers. Students can see that STEMs are no different than garment workers in a race to the bottom with cheaper foreign labor. Instead, just like the poets and artists you deride, current STEM students go into the field because they are drawn to it, not because it is lucrative. If you think it is important to have more American STEM graduates, then you will have to pay the appropriate market wages to attract them. The markets are telling us that we don't need more U.S. STEM graduates -- that cheaper foreign STEM graduates are sufficient. If there was a need for more, the markets would be raising wages, but they are not.

And foreign scientists and engineers do not have to reside in the U.S. to work for U.S. companies, just like garment workers.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

Jack wrote:If you think it is important to have more American STEM graduates, then you will have to pay the appropriate market wages to attract them.
Or pay non-STEM graduates even less. :) One has to have careers available, too. Or perhaps pay STEM graduates enough that they can retire in their 30's like some sports figures.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Jerilynn »

prudent wrote:
Someday there will be a university that focuses on education without the luxurious dorms and meaningless fluff staff positions, and will turn out well-educated graduates at a third the cost of the typical school.

Wal-mart University? It actually might work.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by Jerilynn »

nisiprius wrote: Reward universities for maximizing the short-term earnings achievements of graduates and in a few years the nation will face a critical shortage of poets, dreamers, and rabble-rousers.

If that happens we can probably import all the poets and dreamers we want, no?
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

The college debt bubble seems eerily similar to the housing debt bubble. In the housing bubble, nearly everyone believed that housing was a safe investment, because it had always been the case... until it wasn't. Easy money only compounded the issue.

Likewise most people seem to believe that all schools are worth the price of tuition. For some it may be the case, and for some it may not. One thing is for sure, as tuition continues to grow (along with the easy money of student loans) and new graduate wages stagnate with higher unemployment, the risk that this bubble approaches the housing bubble grows. And when it comes to housing, at least bankruptcy is a way to flush the debt out of the system and start over... those with large student loans won't be so lucky.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by livesoft »

Yes, these articles about the college debt bubble are important to alert parents and students about the pitfalls. Unfortunately, many of the people who would benefit the most from reading such articles are probably not going to come across such articles in the normal course of events. I'm not even sure that high school guidance counselors are on to this. Sure, some are, but not all of them.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by czeckers »

I'll be 68 when I pay off medical school. However, at 1.35%, I am not in too much of a hurry.

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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

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And here I thought this thread was going to be related to social security. Silly me.
They can dock your social security check if you haven't already paid off your student loans, or those for which you cosigned.
Any comments about collecting through social security? Should social security only be used to collect from poets? Oh, that's right, poets don't get paid, so they won't be receiving social security.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by tainted-meat »

sscritic wrote:And here I thought this thread was going to be related to social security. Silly me.
They can dock your social security check if you haven't already paid off your student loans, or those for which you cosigned.
Any comments about collecting through social security? Should social security only be used to collect from poets? Oh, that's right, poets don't get paid, so they won't be receiving social security.
That comment made me laugh because it is true. 8-)
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by robocop »

TAINTED-MEAT wrote:
sscritic wrote:And here I thought this thread was going to be related to social security. Silly me.
They can dock your social security check if you haven't already paid off your student loans, or those for which you cosigned.
Any comments about collecting through social security? Should social security only be used to collect from poets? Oh, that's right, poets don't get paid, so they won't be receiving social security.
That comment made me laugh because it is true. 8-)
Maya Angelou would beg to differ. I love all the stereotypes that say we should just get rid of certain majors. I double majored- one of my majors was in a hard science, and one was in what is often categorized as a frivolous liberal arts major.

The thing is, I directly contribute my 'frivolous' liberal arts major to my ability to get (and more importantly, keep) a good job in a very tough market. It forced me to focus for 4 years on my writing, which is an extremely valuable skill in the workforce.
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by anakinskywalker »

btenny wrote:Vic and Nisi I'm sorry that you feel that way. Everything I read says we need to drastically redirect our education systems NOW to more math, science and technology to have any hope of competing in the world. Our poor choices of college majors and high expenses for these poor choices are killing our economy. Here is study of university education in many leading countries around the world. We are way down the list of countries in percentage of these degrees that will provide for our futures.....

http://rabareview.com/2011/04/20/colleg ... -of-majors

Here are a few quotes from the article and the associated study..

In fact, looking at the percentage of degrees by field of study across the world, education in America is clearly trailing in engineering, math, and science. 30% of German students graduate with a science or engineering degree, 28% of French, 25% of Japanese students do the same. In America, only 16% of college students graduate with a degree in any science, math, or engineering field of any kind. The world average is 23%, that’s sad.

Many students are turned off by engineering for this very reason, it isn’t fun. A large part of education in America is about having fun.

Bill
I don't agree that engineering is not fun. Science is no less fun than any humanities field.

And I find it offensive how the self-declared "Humanities Experts" seem to think that they -- the Humanities majors -- alone have learned anything about Humanities. I have a Ph.D. in Computer Science and I also know more about literature, history, civics, geography, law, economics, and most other Humanities subjects than most Humanities majors I have seen. And I have seen many many many.

What you know is all about how much grey matter you have in your brain. It has little to do with what subject you majored in in college.

I agree 100% with Bill that America needs to focus more on science education if it wants to retain the place it was lucky to get at the end of the second World War when the rest of the world was stupid enough to blow itself up and send its smartest folks (Einstein Fermi Oppenheimer Godel and suchlike) to America. I don't agree with Vic/Nisi that Humanities majors have any exclusive license on writing good literature or rabble-rousing. I'm a Computer Scientist and I bet I write better literature than 99.9999% or more of Humanities majors. I know I'm smarter than 99.9999% of Humanity.

Anakin
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Re: College Debt: Be Careful

Post by staythecourse »

btenny wrote:More parents need to help there kids say NO to student loans and stupid degrees and so forth. The issue is just poor decision making on many peoples part. Just like high cost mutual funds and high cost advisors, poor choices. My kids both went to college and I paid for in-state tuition. This was in the 1990s so this was a good amount of money but it did not break my retirement plans. However I did have to bribe one child to stay in-state and not go to a similar school out of state. Both the out of state schools were over $28K per year back then so a 4 year degree was $120K or so. Very big money that would have definitely impacted my retirement plans. There was a discussion of loans but they were not pursued at my insistance.

I also see a neighbor who is putting both his kids thru $30K per year grad school. One child is in his mid 20s and seems to me to be milking Dad (I know the kids) as he could get a good job tomorrow but would rather go to easy grad school. Plus if he went to work his job would likely pay for his MS degree for free. The other kid is getting a MA degree to go with her useless BA degree. The dad is mowing lawns and cleaning houses and managing other peoples rental properties to pay their loan payments and tuition. He is 60ish and was previously retired. This will teach his kids nothing but dependency IMO........

There is just no explaining some peoples choices and if they have to live with these poor choices I guess this is OK....
Bill
Agreed 100%.

Taking a loan out and adding debt for something that will not help you make more money to pay off that debt in the future is a bad financial move. Spending the extra money to go and get a degree at place x when you could get the same degree at place y is no different then someone investing in a SP500 fund for ER of 1.5% vs. another for 0.10%. The only reason, just like picking the higher cost fund, to pick the more expensive school is if one thinks it will open more doors in the future. That is at least debateable.

I trained at Harvard and there is an old saying there "The only folks who are impressed with Harvard are ones who have either never been there or those who have never left there."

The pervasiveness of financial irresponsibilty continues to surprise and astound me.

Good luck.
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