Bank of America and ATM problem

[nonnie]

My most recent BofA statement included an ATM deposit I did NOT make. It was a check made out to someone I did not know. I called BofA to tell them of the error and they told me it was impossible-- I MUST have made the deposit, there was no way an ATM machine with the proper ATM card could make a deposit to the wrong account. I escalated several times and they kept asking me the same dumb questions, "did I get a receipt when I made the deposit?" (I DIDN'T MAKE THE DEPOSIT), "was my ATM card returned" even-- "how did I know I didn't make the deposit" uh, I can look at the deposit online and see the check isn't made out to me???? I kept trying to tell them I wanted them to take money back, take money out of my account to no avail.

I've been a BofA customer for more than 20 years but because I've moved in the last six months and "they don't know me"--they want me to come into a branch, show them ID, give them a signature sample, etc.-- before they will reverse the deposit. I've started this thing now--almost 45 minutes on the phone-- and I guess I have to finish it but branches aren't convenient and it just irks the heck out of me.

Has anyone ever had an ATM deposit error like this? I have an idea how it happened and it really scares me. I went to the ATM, tried to make a deposit, it couldn't "read" my check (NOT THE CHECK IN QUESTION) and spit it out several times. The line inside was too long and so I walked away. Somehow, because of that attempted transaction, on that day, Jim Smith's deposit (the person after me? the person before me?) was credited to my account. Am I over-reacting by being concerned about this--the fact that it DID happen and the fact that BofA says it's impossible for it to happen?
Nonnie

[jghassell]

If it were me, I would say you've done your part. They will discover the error eventually. You have tried to rectify it but the bottom line is that this is mot your problem; they are making it most inconvenient to fix. Just wait, don't spend the money, and let them work it out.

[sscritic]

I'll play. Person A starts a deposit, gets frustrated when the checks aren't accepted, and walks away without hitting "Cancel." Person B who can't read (or reads too quickly) arrives and makes a deposit.

I will test this theory out tonight by going to 15 different ATMs and starting a check deposit and walking away. How much do you think I can collect?

[stan1]

I'll play. Person A starts a deposit, gets frustrated when the checks aren't accepted, and walks away without hitting "Cancel." Person B who can't read (or reads too quickly) arrives and makes a deposit.

I will test this theory out tonight by going to 15 different ATMs and starting a check deposit and walking away. How much do you think I can collect?

I think Person A would have to walk away without his ATM card, although maybe you have 15 cards?

[sscritic]

I think Person A would have to walk away without his ATM card, although maybe you have 15 cards?

Thank you for playing along, but modern BofA ATMs use the in-n-out card technique. Your card is out before you enter your PIN.

[JamesSFO]

No, BofA ATMs return the card BEFORE you enter your PIN...

[runner9]

I'd send an e-mail to some BOA e-mail address (customer service, CEO, someone) so you have written proof you contacted them, then as someone said, forget about it but don't spend the money.

[nonnie]

I'll play. Person A starts a deposit, gets frustrated when the checks aren't accepted, and walks away without hitting "Cancel." Person B who can't read (or reads too quickly) arrives and makes a deposit.

I will test this theory out tonight by going to 15 different ATMs and starting a check deposit and walking away. How much do you think I can collect?

I hit cancel, my ATM card was returned and when I left the screen had the welcome message-- "shove your ATM card into the slot" or whatever it is--I think that's automatic when one's ATM card is returned (and I presume that's why BofA told me what happened is "impossible." Does your theory suppose that Person B is so busy they don't put their ATM card into the machine and Person A so careless they didn't get theirs back--a perfect storm?

Nonnie

[sscritic]

nonnie :

Your ATM is not like mine. Just as you swipe your debit card when you buy something, you have to "swipe" your debit card at my ATM. Swiping involves a quick motion. My gas card works the same way: "insert and remove quickly." Putting a card in and leaving it sit there is not "swiping" at my ATM.

I have to remove my ATM card before I enter my PIN, before I tell the machine what I want to do, before anything. I don't have to cancel to get my card back.

[WatchinU]

about a week ago, the BofA ATM took my card and never returned it. The ATM seemed to work for the person in front of me. For some reason the ATM went through a lengthy reboot process. after about 20 mins, I still did not have my card nor could I make a transaction. I called the phone number posted. All they could do is cancel my card and send me another one. I kept asking about what happened to my card. They claimed the ATM would shred it. I don't know for sure. It bothers me but I know that they canceled that card.

There are criminal elements committing fraud everyday. They attempt to make fake cards to pull out $ from other people's accounts. I'm not exactly sure how they steal enough info to do it but it does happen. Perhaps that deposit was a test of whether it works. or perhaps this was some type of cyber hacking event.

Please change all your passwords and pin immediately. You may even want to cancel your current ATM/debit card and ask for a new one to be sent just in case. some may think these steps are not warranted but why take a risk?

[Default User BR]

I'm not exactly sure how they steal enough info to do it but it does happen. Perhaps that deposit was a test of whether it works. or perhaps this was some type of cyber hacking event.

It would be a pretty dumb criminal to deposit money to check whether the info had been stolen, rather than, say, withdrawing money.


Brian

[Mudpuppy]

I'd send an e-mail to some BOA e-mail address (customer service, CEO, someone) so you have written proof you contacted them, then as someone said, forget about it but don't spend the money.

I'd agree with this. Send an email or an old fashioned letter disputing the deposit and do not spend the money. If they reply back that you need to go in person, just say you are not near a branch and it is inconvenient for you to go to a branch and this is their error to fix, not your error to fix. They will eventually figure it out when the person who made the deposit complains that it was not posted to his/her account.

As to how it happened, perhaps the ATM malfunctioned and did not properly cancel the transaction even though you hit cancel, the card was returned and the ATM screen went back to the welcome screen. Internally, it could have still retained some of the state about your canceled deposit attempt that got triggered the next time someone tried to make a deposit at the ATM. Hopefully, the person who made the deposit kept his/her receipt (which as you noticed, BofA call reps are seemingly programmed to ask for) and it will help track down what happened. I doubt BofA would ever let any of the parties involved know about the cause though. They'll just correct the transaction and leave you wondering what happened.

[wander]

It will stay in your account until the bank remove it (without even tell you) when then recognize it. I think the customer service can view your account just as you can see it online.

[nonnie]

Thanks for all the suggestions, stories and theories. (BTW, BofA told me that they "couldn't see the same screen I did" but refused to tell me if they could see a copy of the check which was deposited and when I suggested they contact the account holder they acted as though it was equivilent to treason--"ma'am, we can't give you any personal information"--I hadn't asked for any. The more I think about it the more I think they *did* think I might have been trying some sort of scam.) The check was only $125. I googled the fellow whose name was on the check-- an unusual name-- and he's of retirement age and used to work for a bank so hopefully he kept his receipt which has *my* account number on it-nothing anyone I give a check to doesn't have although it also would have my account balance-- under $1,000.

Apparently, since it "couldn't have happened" according to BofA-- it really could have been worse. What if the next person was making a withdrawal? How on earth would I prove I didn't do it or get the cash? I just can't imagine how many hours it would take me to convince BofA to pull the tape, watch it and determine I didn't pull any $20 bills from the machine. I know there isn't a human being reviewing all deposits but it also makes me wonder what the limit *is* for that--how large a "forbidden" second party check-- which this was--would get through on a deposit?

Finally, I sure hope when the rightful owner of the check tries to get the deposit in his account that he doesn't have to go through what I did and that they don't give up any of *my* personal information "are you sure you don't know ____" or "you must have used the wrong ATM card" ... If he doesn't have a copy of his deposit I cannot imagine how he would ever get credit for the deposit. if it's not gone from my account by the first of the year, I'll break down and visit a branch. With my luck they'll tell me--"it couldn't have happened."

Nonnie

[29palms]

Most ATM's are pretty accurate, and they continue to baffle me on just how little they make mistakes, but it happened to me once. Right here at a local credit union, I withdrew money from ATM, and got a reciept saying the amount I withdrew. Like 200 dollars, only the machine never spit any money out. I called the credit union, and told them about it, they told me to come in and show my receipt. I did and they said that they would investigate it. Sure enough, they must have figured out the deal and gave me my 200 dollars. First and last time this ever happened to me. This was maybe 10 years ago.
Your case is very wierd. I hope they figure out what actually happened.

[scrabbler1]

Two ATM stores from many years ago:

(1) My cousin used an ATM at a supermarket but it ate his card and shut itself down (I was with him at the time). This was on a weekend so he could not call anyone to retrieve it. He was not cheated out of any money, luckily. He did get his card back eventually.

(2) I had some minor trouble at a supermarket ATM not long after my cousin's experience (different ATM). It was not giving me any cash so I was able to prevent the transaction but it did not return my card until I actually "did" something, so I requested an account balance which correctly did not reflect the cash I had asked for (and returned my car). On the way back home I stopped off at my bank (Nat West, before it became Fleet and BOA) to tell them what happened and he rep checked my recent account activity which reflected only the balance inquiry and no cash withdrawal.

Still, taken together, both experiences scared me a little, but not enough to stop using ATMs, just those at supermarkets (no fees levied 20+ years ago).

[Breezy]

Call me an alarmist, but the fact is that someone accessed your bank account. From there, you can speculate all you want about whether it was an knowingly or unknowingly, an ATM accident, fraud, etc., and you can be thankful it was a deposit vs. a withdrawal, but personally, I would close the account -- especially if this truly was done via an ATM. I can see it accidentally happening in person at a branch more easily than this, but in a fraud situation, it could have been a test to see if the account could be accessed at all, and future access might be for large withdrawals. (Plenty of people might choose not to report an incorrect deposit.)

I had someone fraudulently use my cc about a year ago, and the cc company caught it. I never would have noticed the under $5 charge. The cc company was on it within an hour, because it is THEIR liability. Whose liability would it be in your situation if it had been a withdrawal, or if it is next time a withdrawal, and how long would it take you to get it straightened out?

[runner9]

I'm not exactly sure how they steal enough info to do it but it does happen. Perhaps that deposit was a test of whether it works. or perhaps this was some type of cyber hacking event.

It would be a pretty dumb criminal to deposit money to check whether the info had been stolen, rather than, say, withdrawing money.


Brian

Back to this thought again...

[nisiprius]

Call me an alarmist, but the fact is that someone accessed your bank account. From there, you can speculate all you want about whether it was an knowingly or unknowingly, an ATM accident, fraud, etc., and you can be thankful it was a deposit vs. a withdrawal, but personally, I would close the account -- especially if this truly was done via an ATM.

I sort of agree. Or, at least, it's a "fish-or-cut-bait" question. If you're worried, the obvious solution is to withdraw most of the money from your Bank of America account and deposit it somewhere else. Then close the BoA problem account when convenient.

The point is, you have two course. Course one, close the account, with the predictable medium effort and nuisance that entails--and the problem is solved. Let it go, and you have a high probability that the problem solves itself effortlessly, but also a small possibility of endless hassle and nuisance and worry.

Having said that let me confess: in real life I would probably just let it go and see what happened, unless there was more money in the account than I wanted to risk losing, even temporarily.

Nonnie, I do think I'm afraid it's time for you to go into what I call "full-bore recordkeeping mode," meaning finding a big Manilla envelope into which to drop every scrap of paper that relates to the incident. Make screen printouts of the relevant screens and the check image--dare I say this, "while you can still make them" (in case transactions or details vanish later). Start keeping a log of whom you talked to when and what they said (and asking them every time for their name and/or a "reference number" for the transaction.). And reconstruct from memory what's happened and the date it happened.

[fareastwarriors]

My most recent BofA statement included an ATM deposit I did NOT make. It was a check made out to someone I did not know. I called BofA to tell them of the error and they told me it was impossible-- I MUST have made the deposit, there was no way an ATM machine with the proper ATM card could make a deposit to the wrong account. I escalated several times and they kept asking me the same dumb questions, "did I get a receipt when I made the deposit?" (I DIDN'T MAKE THE DEPOSIT), "was my ATM card returned" even-- "how did I know I didn't make the deposit" uh, I can look at the deposit online and see the check isn't made out to me???? I kept trying to tell them I wanted them to take money back, take money out of my account to no avail.

I've been a BofA customer for more than 20 years but because I've moved in the last six months and "they don't know me"--they want me to come into a branch, show them ID, give them a signature sample, etc.-- before they will reverse the deposit. I've started this thing now--almost 45 minutes on the phone-- and I guess I have to finish it but branches aren't convenient and it just irks the heck out of me.

Has anyone ever had an ATM deposit error like this? I have an idea how it happened and it really scares me. I went to the ATM, tried to make a deposit, it couldn't "read" my check (NOT THE CHECK IN QUESTION) and spit it out several times. The line inside was too long and so I walked away. Somehow, because of that attempted transaction, on that day, Jim Smith's deposit (the person after me? the person before me?) was credited to my account. Am I over-reacting by being concerned about this--the fact that it DID happen and the fact that BofA says it's impossible for it to happen?
Nonnie

I never had a big problem with BofA. There are few times where I went inside the branch (Bay Area). The staff at my branch at great. They are nice and friendly. It makes me feel bad to use the ATM outside sometimes!

But stuff happens, sometimes there are many hoops to jump through to get things resolved. These mega banks are not known for great customer service...

But good luck, just keep going up the chain. It will be resolved eventually.


(interesting note in your post, I thought everyone hates BofA but everytime I go there are lines!)

[nisiprius]

I thought everyone hates BofA but everytime I go there are lines!)

Every time I go to the Department of Motor Vehicles there are lines, I guess that means people must like it...

[Default User BR]

I thought everyone hates BofA but everytime I go there are lines!)

Every time I go to the Department of Motor Vehicles there are lines, I guess that means people must like it...

If there were a lot of different options[1] for doing that business, then you'd have a point. Generally all you have are a number of different offices[2] of the same entity, not a competitor.

1. Many states now have online options for taking care of some functions, although that doesn't generally favor the procrastinators among us.

2. In Missouri, the offices are privately managed although handed out by the state Department of Revenue. So there can be significant variation. In my case, there is one very close where you stand in line. One further away has lots of chairs where you take a number and sit until they call you. The wait at the latter tends to be longer, but more comfortable.


Brian

[sscritic]

I thought everyone hates BofA but everytime I go there are lines!)

Every time I go to the Department of Motor Vehicles there are lines, I guess that means people must like it...

There is a video online shot in one particular mall this weekend with a spit screen showing the Apple Store and the Microsoft Store and the numbers of people in each. I mention it only because I like to watch food fights, and nothing gets the bogleheads going more than a comparison of Apple and Microsoft.

[fareastwarriors]

I thought everyone hates BofA but everytime I go there are lines!)

Every time I go to the Department of Motor Vehicles there are lines, I guess that means people must like it...

People have no choice but to go to DMV for their paperwork/license. But banking? come on, there are everywhere...unless you live in a rural area.

[sscritic]

Let me try again.

I wonder if this ATM runs a Microsoft OS or an Apple OS. That might explain things.

[Curlyq]

Once, a $1,000 cash deposit was made into my BoA account via ATM. I did not make this deposit and called BoA to point out the error. They said they would look into it. Eventually, I tranferred the $1,000 to my savings account. It's still there after about five years, so I'm going to transfer it to my emergency fund and forget about it. I never did hear back from BoA nor did I ever suspect someone was fraudulently trying to access my account.

[SimonJester]

Let me try again.

I wonder if this ATM runs a Microsoft OS or an Apple OS. That might explain things.

Few years back when blue screen of death were more common, Ive seen a coin counting machine, gas pump, and ATM all with Windows blue screen of deaths.

[sscritic]

Few years back when blue screen of death were more common, Ive seen a coin counting machine, gas pump, and ATM all with Windows blue screen of deaths.

From what I have read, a lot of ATMs used to run on IBM's OS/2.

[from December, 2005] At the turn of the millennium, ATM deployers began working toward, or at least thinking about, transitioning their fleets from OS/2 to Windows.
...
At the end of 2004, 70 percent of all new ATMs shipped throughout the world were Windows-based, said Martin Macmillan, chief executive of London-based ATM software specialist Level Four. As manufacturers make the shift, deployers, ready or not, will follow suit.

NCR and Diebold, which dominate the FI ATM market in the United States, are expected to stop shipping ATMs with OS/2 at the end of the first quarter of 2006. Carrie Kandes, a Diebold spokesperson, estimates that 90 percent of Diebold's global shipments are now Windows-based ATMs. However, an estimated 50 percent of Diebold's FI-installed U.S. ATMs are still operating on OS/2.

http://www.atmmarketplace.com/article/1 ... 2-farewell

I guess we know whom to blame for nonnie's ATM problems.

[fareastwarriors]

Few years back when blue screen of death were more common, Ive seen a coin counting machine, gas pump, and ATM all with Windows blue screen of deaths.

From what I have read, a lot of ATMs used to run on IBM's OS/2.

[from December, 2005] At the turn of the millennium, ATM deployers began working toward, or at least thinking about, transitioning their fleets from OS/2 to Windows.
...
At the end of 2004, 70 percent of all new ATMs shipped throughout the world were Windows-based, said Martin Macmillan, chief executive of London-based ATM software specialist Level Four. As manufacturers make the shift, deployers, ready or not, will follow suit.

NCR and Diebold, which dominate the FI ATM market in the United States, are expected to stop shipping ATMs with OS/2 at the end of the first quarter of 2006. Carrie Kandes, a Diebold spokesperson, estimates that 90 percent of Diebold's global shipments are now Windows-based ATMs. However, an estimated 50 percent of Diebold's FI-installed U.S. ATMs are still operating on OS/2.

http://www.atmmarketplace.com/article/1 ... 2-farewell

I guess we know whom to blame for nonnie's ATM problems.

Ctrl-Alt-Delete please.

[nonnie]

I guess we know whom to blame for nonnie's ATM problems.

Hey there chain yanker-- or is it goat herder (I've got mine hidden away so you can't get 'em) Guess Diebold was too busy with all that election stuff although as I understand it they're mostly out of that business.
Didja do the 15 "leave my account open" transactions yet? How much did you get? I do have to admit that one of these days I'm going to take the time to go to an ATM (BTW, I've never seen a BofA ATM in any state with a "slider"-- only the swallowing ones-- if even for a minute) put in a blank check, hope it's rejected and then stand there and see how long it takes for the machine to shut down-- or go back to the Welcome screen.

One thing that makes me curious is that it seems as though most folks assume there's an ATM car that comes along and fills up the machines instead of them being accessed from inside the bank. If a machine ever ate my card or I didn't get enough $20 bills-- I'd be inside that branch so fast.... although I'm sure they'd tell me they don't have access to the drawer where the "eaten" ATM cards are kept.

Nonnie

[nonnie]

Nonnie, I do think I'm afraid it's time for you to go into what I call "full-bore recordkeeping mode," meaning finding a big Manilla envelope into which to drop every scrap of paper that relates to the incident. Make screen printouts of the relevant screens and the check image--dare I say this, "while you can still make them" (in case transactions or details vanish later). Start keeping a log of whom you talked to when and what they said (and asking them every time for their name and/or a "reference number" for the transaction.). And reconstruct from memory what's happened and the date it happened.

The VERY first thing I did was a screen capture of the check-- that's how I know the guy's name and where the check came from etc-- I don't know if it's strange or not that it's a "Farmers Group Settlement" class action refund. This kind of stuff happens to me nearly every month--"This has never happened before" - "Our system won't allow it" "no on else has ever reported that bug"-- and it always turns out that it DID happen (a dozen years or so ago it happened with Vanguard)--so I ALWAYS keep documentation. (Several months ago we went to Wells Fargo to get my name on my partners' account and get a free safe deposit box--it took forEVER-- like 45 minutes and when we came out we had a ticket on the car from their "private" parking lot security company for "parking too long." Another hour making phone calls, writing letters, protesting). I've even asked for permission to record calls.

I have close to half a dozen accounts tied to my BofA including Social Security, Treasury Direct--jeez,brings back memories of my nearly 2 year struggle with SSA and Form 521--and it would be a hassle to change. The main reason I'm only not leaning toward changing is I've used their Bill Pay successfully for many years and it's the best I've found-- another hassle to start that all over with another source. Alliant CU bill pay really sucks and takes forever. (And if I didn't change banks when my presonal BofA banker opened an American Express account in my name...) I'm looking into Schwab Bill Pay as that is another option I have.

I think it probably is a good idea to call a branch and make an appointment with a manager and try to get this straightened out. After all this discussion I really don't want the money even sitting there-- the only reason I was waiting was because I didn't want to spend any more time on it and I was curious to see if it would resolve by itself --hopefully the guy discovering it and getting his money back--which would make me feel a little better about machine error and not fraud.

Nonnie

[Mudpuppy]

One thing that makes me curious is that it seems as though most folks assume there's an ATM car that comes along and fills up the machines instead of them being accessed from inside the bank. If a machine ever ate my card or I didn't get enough $20 bills-- I'd be inside that branch so fast.... although I'm sure they'd tell me they don't have access to the drawer where the "eaten" ATM cards are kept.

My dad has a very bad habit of forgetting his PIN and having his cards eaten by ATMs. From this, I can tell you that someone at the branch does have access to the ATM (and in fact accesses it each business day to verify the previous day's deposits), but that person is not always available. Sometimes, it's just easier for the branch to cancel the previous ATM card and issue a new one.

[sscritic]

My dad has a very bad habit of forgetting his PIN and having his cards eaten by ATMs. From this, I can tell you that someone at the branch does have access to the ATM (and in fact accesses it each business day to verify the previous day's deposits), but that person is not always available. Sometimes, it's just easier for the branch to cancel the previous ATM card and issue a new one.

In spite of the close resemblance, I am not Mudpuppy's father, but I have left my card in an ATM. I was told that if you came in then, they could retrieve your card, but if it was still there at night they would cancel the card and issue a new one. (Or something close to that.)

I would think that a manager would always have access, but that may not be true.

[nisiprius]

I am not Mudpuppy's father either, but I am very glad that so many ATM machines now have an external swipe thingy so that the card never leaves your hand--and that the ones with the traditional slot that sucks the card in have mostly been reprogrammed so that they immediately spit it out again, confronting you with an immediate need to do something with the card, such as put it back in your wallet.

If I had a nickel for every time I walked out of an ATM booth wondering why the silly machine was beeping, I'd have twenty or thirty cents by now.