Tesla S

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Re: Tesla S

Postby Valuethinker » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:25 am

Diogenes wrote:Nice to see the Tesla prospective owners excited about spending that kind of money. Reminds me of the Delorean days.

Using no gasoline does not of course make car "green", where does the electricity come from anyway? Clearly not 'green.'.


Diogenes was a seeker of truth. You have not sought truth.

What is annoying, in the days of Google, is that people like you keep posting this old trope without doing 10 seconds checking. You have not bothered to research your view.

In 3 seconds I found this site, with no more searching than that:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/ele ... ssions.php

Of course this has been thought of. Of course this has been debated. Of course the National Energy Laboratories plus other analysts have looked into this. The UK government has written 150 page reports on all this (google CCC electric cars).

So just for the record:

- it depends where you live in the USA - if you live in the Pacific NW your electricity is essentially clean (hydro electric). Other areas it varies

- even if you live in the Midwest or South, where coal is 50%+ of all electricity (and can be 80-90%) (it's now in the 40s in the USA as a whole, due to the shift to gas for electricity generation) you still get a 'win' on emissions relative to an internal combustion engine-- that's reflected in the mpg figures, and in the emission figures that are given with, for example, every car sold in the UK (they are available in the USA but UK law requires them to be published on the sticker, and company car taxes are linked to the level of emissions)

MPG is actually not a bad proxy and the EPA gives figures c. 100mpg for an electric car like the Nissan Leaf. Remember an ICE has c. 28% efficiency. A gas fired power station has 55%, transmission losses are usually 7-8%, and electric motors are 80%+ efficient. There is power loss in batteries, however, over time. Even a coal fired station is in the low 40s (modern one). Nuclear, wind and hydro electric the thermal conversion efficiency is of course irrelevant (you only care about output).

The argument about subsidies etc. is a bigger one and not to be addressed here.

I only wish to deal in the facts of the matter, and the ease of doing that research in the days of the internets.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby semperlux » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:32 am

I drove the Tesla the other day it it was one of the most exhilarating experiences I've had driving ! The full on torque right at the beginning makes this a fun driver's car. It is very well designed, and extremely smooth & quiet to drive. I would recommend anyone to test drive it before putting it down. Also, the bonus of being able to ride solo in the car pool lane justifies some of the cost for me. I have a per diem gig where I drive about 150 miles round trip, sometimes during peak rush hour so that alone saves me about 1/2 hour. Oh, and it's the one sports car which I don't have to switch neutral, first gear, neutral, first gear constantly in traffic. :D I hope they succeed. About time an American car company came out on top in the automotive industry. Plus it is made in America, so more jobs for Americans.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby inbox788 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:02 am

thirdman wrote:When he pulled up for me to get in, the door handles were hidden. He had to roll down the window and tell me to touch the door handle, and voila it came out. That seems unnecessary, but it was neat.

Unnecessary? Absolutely necessary from an aerodynamic POV.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby sschullo » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:12 am

indexfundfan wrote:I have the Leaf and after 18k miles and 16 months, I haven't detected any battery capacity loss.

But battery life could be a big issue in hot climates (think Phoenix). There have been reported early battery capacity losses on the MyNissanLeaf forum:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 11714df407


I also had the Leaf for 18 months and have 11K miles. Lost about 15% of battery capacity, so far. Live in Palm Springs area. The battery warranty has been upgraded so when a third of the battery capacity is lost, they will bring it back up to about 80%.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby travellight » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:25 pm

I test drove the Tesla S and thought it was great but not so much better than other cars I have driven.... but then, I am a car enthusiast and was used to high performance cars. I ultimately went frugal and had a hard time paying retail and being an early adopter. I may buy this car in 3-4 years when I see what the used market value is and see if battery technology improves significantly.

I also love the HOV lane factor and that was a huge motivator for me. I did not like the mandatory $850 service that I think should have been free for first 3-5 years like other luxury cars. I may have misunderstood but I don't think it was included. At the time I was looking at it, the bricked battery issue was left on the consumer and was a concern as well. I think they have softened their position on this.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Diogenes » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:53 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Diogenes wrote:Nice to see the Tesla prospective owners excited about spending that kind of money. Reminds me of the Delorean days.

Using no gasoline does not of course make car "green", where does the electricity come from anyway? Clearly not 'green.'.


Diogenes was a seeker of truth. You have not sought truth.

What is annoying, in the days of Google, is that people like you keep posting this old trope without doing 10 seconds checking. You have not bothered to research your view.

In 3 seconds I found this site, with no more searching than that:

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/ele ... ssions.php

Of course this has been thought of. Of course this has been debated. Of course the National Energy Laboratories plus other analysts have looked into this. The UK government has written 150 page reports on all this (google CCC electric cars).

So just for the record:

- it depends where you live in the USA - if you live in the Pacific NW your electricity is essentially clean (hydro electric). Other areas it varies

- even if you live in the Midwest or South, where coal is 50%+ of all electricity (and can be 80-90%) (it's now in the 40s in the USA as a whole, due to the shift to gas for electricity generation) you still get a 'win' on emissions relative to an internal combustion engine-- that's reflected in the mpg figures, and in the emission figures that are given with, for example, every car sold in the UK (they are available in the USA but UK law requires them to be published on the sticker, and company car taxes are linked to the level of emissions)

MPG is actually not a bad proxy and the EPA gives figures c. 100mpg for an electric car like the Nissan Leaf. Remember an ICE has c. 28% efficiency. A gas fired power station has 55%, transmission losses are usually 7-8%, and electric motors are 80%+ efficient. There is power loss in batteries, however, over time. Even a coal fired station is in the low 40s (modern one). Nuclear, wind and hydro electric the thermal conversion efficiency is of course irrelevant (you only care about output).

The argument about subsidies etc. is a bigger one and not to be addressed here.

I only wish to deal in the facts of the matter, and the ease of doing that research in the days of the internets.


ValueThinker, you are not giving 'value' to this conversation. Most Teslas in the NW are showing up in Seattle, the largest metro area and are serviced by Puget Sound Energy. PSE provides only about half of the electric power they need from hydroelectric (I called them), 32 percent is from coal power purchased from elsewhere. What you found out in 'three seconds on the internet' was apparently false. If you searched an extra few seconds your would find the same info on their site. Coal accounts for nearly 50 percent of electricity nationwide (confirmed also by your quoted link). Hydroelectric power is only 6 percent of the electricity in the United States, so doubtful most Tesla owners will be using it. So nationwide if you use electricity you are burning coal half the time at least.

The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until the price comes down significantly (without a taxpayer subsidy), it can be charged as easily in 5 minutes (not the current 10 hours) in Seattle OR stopping off while passing through Crescent City, and has a range of 450 miles+ (instead of the recent Car and Driver tested 211 miles for the Tesla S http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... est-review). Oh, and until it is not federally backed and does not depend on sales to some that feel they are saving the planet because it uses no gasoline. That is a red herring and a sales gimmick. We are all for new technology and the Tesla looks sharp, but lets be clear what it is not.

_D_
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Re: Tesla S

Postby jdb » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Diogenes reply totally misses the point about Tesla Model S and shows how one must experience driving the car before dissing it. The car is in my opinion and many others the best handling and simply most fun four door sedan ever produced. Forget about environment issues, it is just a wonderful car to drive. The fact that I refuel every night in garage for probably less than $3 electrical charge is pure bonus, as is fact that this is American technology that has produced best vehicle in world.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby lightheir » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Without cars like the Tesla, there is no future for better environmentally friendly cars in the near (or likely long) term. Sure, it's far, far from the be-all-end-all of cars, but it was never supposed to be and isn't being marketed as such.

The complaints about the Tesla remind me a lot of the brouhaha around the Prius. SO many critics came out of the woodwork (many more than against the Tesla in fact) about how non-green it was, how it was a waste of engineering, how the batteries would 'die', and how it would contribute nothing to useful car technology or to a better environment.

It's now widely accepted as a top-selling, reliable car, and was definitely THE model on which the whole hybrid movement has been based. And again, while it's far, far from perfect/ideal, it's an order of magnitude better in terms of steps in the right direction for environmental awareness and technology than the trend that was going on when the Prius entered the market - bigger, heavier, and more gas guzzling SUVs.

I haven't looked up the figures as well, but I'm also betting that even if the Tesla is charging on 50% coal-based energy production in the US, it's still going to come out a good deal ahead in terms of emissions compared to a standard combustion engine.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Epsilon Delta » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:12 pm

Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby semperlux » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:04 pm

jdb wrote:Diogenes reply totally misses the point about Tesla Model S and shows how one must experience driving the car before dissing it. The car is in my opinion and many others the best handling and simply most fun four door sedan ever produced. Forget about environment issues, it is just a wonderful car to drive. The fact that I refuel every night in garage for probably less than $3 electrical charge is pure bonus, as is fact that this is American technology that has produced best vehicle in world.


It's all good jdb. Less people who drive it, more special it feels for those who do. ICE drivers don't know what they're missing. And I agree with you that one should never put down something unless one has tried it, experienced it, or used it.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby semperlux » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:12 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


Also, who routinely drives 450+ miles a day? Let's say someone who has a long commute of 100 miles each way, that's still only 200 miles per day, and even then very few people have that kind of commute.

And on those rare occasions when one wants to go on a road trip & drive >450 miles per day, one could just as easily rent a vehicle that does that.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:37 pm

Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


I'm amazed there are still naysayers at this stage, mostly this is because they haven't done their research. Their numbers are dwindling.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby matjen » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:47 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:
Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


I'm amazed there are still naysayers at this stage, mostly this is because they haven't done their research. Their numbers are dwindling.


Uh, isn't the obvious point being made that 100% of ICE cars have basically unlimited range with the occasional 5 minute refuel? It's not that they can all literally go 450 miles without stopping. A Tesla S looks to be a fine car but it takes hours to charge I believe.

Taking a good car on a road trip is a great pleasure and owning a $100,000 car that can't go on a road trip is a minus any way you look at it. In my life there have been entire years where I had long distance relationships or loved ones in nursing homes that required multiple trips a month over 300-450 miles.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby TomatoTomahto » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 pm

I just looked at the deposit for the X. $40,000 is quite pricey. My wife isn't completely convinced about the Tesla to begin with, and a deposit that large (for a year or two before delivery) is going to require quite a bit of discussion. I guess it's fully refundable though :D
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:22 pm

matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:
Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


I'm amazed there are still naysayers at this stage, mostly this is because they haven't done their research. Their numbers are dwindling.


Uh, isn't the obvious point being made that 100% of ICE cars have basically unlimited range with the occasional 5 minute refuel? It's not that they can all literally go 450 miles without stopping. A Tesla S looks to be a fine car but it takes hours to charge I believe.


You are proving my point. Have you researched the expansion of the super chargers and the charging time to use one? It appears that you don't know much of anything about it.

Any car I have purchased in the past, the furthest thing from my mind was "unlimited range with an occasional five minute refuel". Mostly it's about day to day use and reliability, costs of upkeep, the look and feel of the vehicle, safety, etc.

What you are also failing to see is the inconvenience of stopping for gas on the way to or from work, week in and week out, as opposed to just heading home to plug in and charge while you sleep.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby matjen » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:31 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:
matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:
Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


I'm amazed there are still naysayers at this stage, mostly this is because they haven't done their research. Their numbers are dwindling.


Uh, isn't the obvious point being made that 100% of ICE cars have basically unlimited range with the occasional 5 minute refuel? It's not that they can all literally go 450 miles without stopping. A Tesla S looks to be a fine car but it takes hours to charge I believe.


You are proving my point. Have you researched the expansion of the super chargers and the charging time to use one? It appears that you don't know much of anything about it.

Any car I have purchased in the past, the furthest thing from my mind was "unlimited range with an occasional five minute refuel". Mostly it's about day to day use and reliability, costs of upkeep, the look and feel of the vehicle, safety, etc.

What you are also failing to see is the inconvenience of stopping for gas on the way to or from work, week in and week out, as opposed to just heading home to plug in and charge while you sleep.


It appears that according to Tesla there are 12-13 stations in the entire US and only one in the entire Midwest. What is your point? What do you know about them that Tesla doesn't? Already I see that they predicted 27 open by summer of 2013 but there are only 12-13. Moreover, even if there was one it would be 30 minutes to recharge. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Diogenes » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:39 pm

matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:
Epsilon Delta wrote:
Diogenes wrote:The Tesla will remain the 'latest thing for the 1 percent' until ... and has a range of 450 miles+
_D_

It's a constant amusement that the detractors insist that electric cars must be able to do something that over 90% of the cars on the road can't.


I'm amazed there are still naysayers at this stage, mostly this is because they haven't done their research. Their numbers are dwindling.


Uh, isn't the obvious point being made that 100% of ICE cars have basically unlimited range with the occasional 5 minute refuel? It's not that they can all literally go 450 miles without stopping. A Tesla S looks to be a fine car but it takes hours to charge I believe.

Taking a good car on a road trip is a great pleasure and owning a $100,000 car that can't go on a road trip is a minus any way you look at it. In my life there have been entire years where I had long distance relationships or loved ones in nursing homes that required multiple trips a month over 300-450 miles.


+1 exactly. It is naturally OK to buy the Tesla if you like it and wish to pay. Driving it is not the point. I'm sure I would like the ride. If you live and commute exclusively in the city and have the scratch and wish to be an early adopter - go for it.
By the protests to any opposing viewpoints, it appears that some here have already driven it and are now looking to justify a pending purchase to themselves, or perhaps have placed that deposit and are nervous about the long wait. Your mind is made up, but you are still the very small minority. The rest are waiting and evaluating. I remember the Delorean - it was also billed as the change all even though it was gas powered - try to find one on the road now. It is very hard for a new small car company to survive - especially if it cannot serve most people's needs - regardless of government support.

For those of us one car families, we need to think of having a vehicle that we can drive a few hundred miles, refuel in 5 minutes and drive a few hundred more, when we need to. The Tesla is not that and thus is clearly not the car for the majority of families at the moment, even those in the luxury market. I also have a problem making my neighbor pay for my decision by buying anything subsidized by the government via credits or loans.
We will see if they are still selling in 2-3 years or have lost the leap to the next better technology that serves the 90 percent. When it does, electric or otherwise, that will be the real success story.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby sambb » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:54 pm

I drove it, and I liked the S. For about 40-50k. Not 90k.
I dont see how it is more fun than a combination of lower priced cars.
Fast, yes. Cool tech, absolutely. 90k worth? With completely unknown resale (unless you trade every 3 years which is financially a total loser situation), it seems like a nice luxury.

Would you buy a 5year old used tesla? How would you value it, when the touchscreen is out of warranty and the battery works at 40-50%?

Seems like a nice car for the type of person that doesnt mind trading 90k cars every 2-3 years, and cost is not an issue. I dont fall in that category.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:34 pm

Diogenes wrote:\
By the protests to any opposing viewpoints, it appears that some here have already driven it and are now looking to justify a pending purchase to themselves, or perhaps have placed that deposit and are nervous about the long wait. Your mind is made up, but you are still the very small minority. The rest are waiting and evaluating. I remember the Delorean - it was also billed as the change all even though it was gas powered - try to find one on the road now. It is very hard for a new small car company to survive - especially if it cannot serve most people's needs - regardless of government support.

We will see if they are still selling in 2-3 years or have lost the leap to the next better technology that serves the 90 percent. When it does, electric or otherwise, that will be the real success story.


I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.

Then someone else comments on "having to replace a battery after 3 years because it's lost 50% of its capacity". The batteries have an 8 year warranty.

I think it's fair to say that for some people, even the minor inconvenience is not worth the hassle or the price point is too high, don't want to be an "early adopter", etc. Those things I can understand. But at least know what you are talking about before you knock the car.

And I've heard the Delorean reference over and over. I don't get it. I wasn't very old when the Delorean came out, but exactly what part of the Delorean was a game changer of a vehicle? Other than perhaps its body style? It just seems like a ridiculous comparison to make. Did the Delorean ever score 99 on Consumer Reports? Did it ever outsell comparable vehicles from Audi, Mercedes, etc for an entire quarter?

Edit: A decade ago people had a lot of ignorant arguments about the Prius too, as to why it wouldn't sell, wouldn't last, wouldn't do well at resale, battery costs would be exorbitant and cars would be worthless when they needed a new battery, etc. Each and every one of those were absolutely false.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby matjen » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:49 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.


Just so we are absolutely clear, I don't take kindly to being called ignorant. My statement about it taking "hours" to charge was based on memory and is 100% correct. You are the one who is not being factual DFWinvestor. There are CURRENTLY 13 of these super stations in the whole country. That is a fact. Only in those stations do you get below an hour. The whole hours charging statement was made in the context of being able to drive distance when you want to and WHERE you want to which is one of the major reasons for having a car. Unlike you, I back up what I say with a link to the facts. Please don't call me ignorant. So for those who are interested here are the facts: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#charging So you are right that in the midwest if I go to Normal, IL it will take less than an hour to charge a Tesla. Everywhere else it won't. Who is ignorant?

A standard outlet will take you 6 hours. So if you plan on driving wherever you want with one of these things then count on that. I am in agreement that it will get better and I hope it does.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:55 pm

matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.


Just so we are absolutely clear, I don't take kindly to being called ignorant. My statement about it taking "hours" to charge was based on memory and is 100% correct. You are the one who is not being factual DFWinvestor. There are CURRENTLY 13 of these super stations in the whole country. That is a fact. Only in those stations do you get below an hour. The whole hours charging statement was made in the context of being able to drive distance when you want to and WHERE you want to which is one of the major reasons for having a car. Unlike you, I back up what I say with a link to the facts. Please don't call me ignorant. So for those who are interested here are the facts: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#charging So you are right that in the midwest if I go to Normal, IL it will take less than an hour to charge a Tesla. Everywhere else it won't. Who is ignorant?

A standard outlet will take you 6 hours. So if you plan on driving wherever you want with one of these things then count on that. I am in agreement that it will get better and I hope it does.


What you said was ignorant in my opinion. I'm sorry that struck a nerve with you. Most people don't use a standard outlet at home---you can buy a high voltage one that charges quicker.

In the context you mentioned this, you specifically referenced taking long road trips and stopping for five minutes for gas as compared to charging. In this situation, you would use a supercharger if one is available. No one is going to plug in to a standard electrical outlet in the middle of a road trip. So if the supercharger stations aren't going to be convenient for any and all lengthy trips you plan to take, you may want to consider another vehicle.

Perhaps you should have read that link before your initial post, and not after.

Edit: And if you read your link closely you would see there will be 27 by the end of the summer, and coast to coast travel this winter.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby matjen » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:16 am

DFWinvestor wrote:
matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.


Just so we are absolutely clear, I don't take kindly to being called ignorant. My statement about it taking "hours" to charge was based on memory and is 100% correct. You are the one who is not being factual DFWinvestor. There are CURRENTLY 13 of these super stations in the whole country. That is a fact. Only in those stations do you get below an hour. The whole hours charging statement was made in the context of being able to drive distance when you want to and WHERE you want to which is one of the major reasons for having a car. Unlike you, I back up what I say with a link to the facts. Please don't call me ignorant. So for those who are interested here are the facts: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#charging So you are right that in the midwest if I go to Normal, IL it will take less than an hour to charge a Tesla. Everywhere else it won't. Who is ignorant?

A standard outlet will take you 6 hours. So if you plan on driving wherever you want with one of these things then count on that. I am in agreement that it will get better and I hope it does.


What you said was ignorant in my opinion. I'm sorry that struck a nerve with you. Most people don't use a standard outlet at home---you can buy a high voltage one that charges quicker.

In the context you mentioned this, you specifically referenced taking long road trips and stopping for five minutes for gas as compared to charging. In this situation, you would use a supercharger if one is available. No one is going to plug in to a standard electrical outlet in the middle of a road trip. So if the supercharger stations aren't going to be convenient for any and all lengthy trips you plan to take, you may want to consider another vehicle.

Perhaps you should have read that link before your initial post, and not after.

Edit: And if you read your link closely you would see there will be 27 by the end of the summer, and coast to coast travel this winter.


Uh, what you just admitted is the point of my original post. That is a weakness with the Tesla. It is near useless from a road trip/freedom perspective. I live in Chicago. Here in Chicago people drive up into Wisconsin or along the coast of Michigan or to Detroit or to Indianapolis or Cleveland. Or to St. Louis. The supercharger in Normal,IL will help with one of those places. That is a valid fact not an opinion. It may get better but people don't plan their vacations or weekend drives around where supercharger stations are. It isn't ignorant to point that out and saying DUH, someone would use another car (which is what you just said above) is EXACTLY the darn point. It is a weakness in the Tesla. I don't buy 100K cars to not use them.

Moreover, I did read the link (though not before my first comment) and my second comment even referred to there supposedly being 27 but only having 13 now. Did this slip by you "Already I see that they predicted 27 open by summer of 2013 but there are only 12-13." Let's see if there are 27 by late Sept. Let's see where they are. Your repeating marketing pablum isn't a fact. I'm sure in the future you will be able to drive across country from a couple of particular places to a couple of other particular places along a particular route. That is not my idea of exploring the country in a car.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:37 am

matjen wrote:
Uh, what you just admitted is the point of my original post. That is a weakness with the Tesla. It is near useless from a road trip/freedom perspective. I live in Chicago. Here in Chicago people drive up into Wisconsin or along the coast of Michigan or to Detroit or to Indianapolis or Cleveland. Or to St. Louis. The supercharger in Normal,IL will help with one of those places. That is a valid fact not an opinion. It may get better but people don't plan their vacations or weekend drives around where supercharger stations are. It isn't ignorant to point that out and saying DUH, someone would use another car (which is what you just said above) is EXACTLY the darn point. It is a weakness in the Tesla. I don't buy 100K cars to not use them.

Moreover, I did read the link (though not before my first comment) and my second comment even referred to there supposedly being 27 but only having 13 now. Did this slip by you "Already I see that they predicted 27 open by summer of 2013 but there are only 12-13." Let's see if there are 27 by late Sept. Let's see where they are. Your repeating marketing pablum isn't a fact. I'm sure in the future you will be able to drive across country from a couple of particular places to a couple of other particular places along a particular route. That is not my idea of exploring the country in a car.


Let me just apologize for touching a nerve. I can certainly understand---the car is not for everyone, and if you take enough road trips that it wouldn't work for you, then you probably shouldn't buy one.

I'd encourage you to go to your link yet again, look at the supercharger map, and scroll on the bottom (time line projection) to 2015. I challenge you to find anywhere on the map you couldn't reach by car from where you live using the (free) superchargers.

I think what strikes a nerve with some of us who are huge fans of this company is the fact that many people seem to genuinely want to see the company fail----I'm not saying you fall into that category. But I've heard a lot of ignorance from a lot of people who haven't researched the car one bit, make some ignorant statements about why it will never succeed, and don't know the first thing about it. Not saying this is you but I've heard it enough times that I am a bit weary of the talking points which are often off target/ill informed.

It's not a perfect vehicle for any and all consumers. No other car on the market is either. But it's revolutionary in many ways. I've long been waiting on a car that had luxury, performance, and was environmentally friendly. Many cars have 2 of the 3, but none had it all until now.

edit: Here is the link, yours is a different page on their website: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
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Re: Tesla S

Postby stoptothink » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:43 am

DFWinvestor wrote:
matjen wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.


Just so we are absolutely clear, I don't take kindly to being called ignorant. My statement about it taking "hours" to charge was based on memory and is 100% correct. You are the one who is not being factual DFWinvestor. There are CURRENTLY 13 of these super stations in the whole country. That is a fact. Only in those stations do you get below an hour. The whole hours charging statement was made in the context of being able to drive distance when you want to and WHERE you want to which is one of the major reasons for having a car. Unlike you, I back up what I say with a link to the facts. Please don't call me ignorant. So for those who are interested here are the facts: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#charging So you are right that in the midwest if I go to Normal, IL it will take less than an hour to charge a Tesla. Everywhere else it won't. Who is ignorant?

A standard outlet will take you 6 hours. So if you plan on driving wherever you want with one of these things then count on that. I am in agreement that it will get better and I hope it does.


What you said was ignorant in my opinion. I'm sorry that struck a nerve with you. Most people don't use a standard outlet at home---you can buy a high voltage one that charges quicker.

In the context you mentioned this, you specifically referenced taking long road trips and stopping for five minutes for gas as compared to charging. In this situation, you would use a supercharger if one is available. No one is going to plug in to a standard electrical outlet in the middle of a road trip. So if the supercharger stations aren't going to be convenient for any and all lengthy trips you plan to take, you may want to consider another vehicle.

Perhaps you should have read that link before your initial post, and not after.

Edit: And if you read your link closely you would see there will be 27 by the end of the summer, and coast to coast travel this winter.


Don't have a dog in this fight at all, but why do you keep proving his point and then calling him ignorant? Currently it is extremely inconvenient as a means to travel extended distances (450+ miles). With 12 current supercharging stations in the entire country how can you even dispute that? How important that is to each consumer is obviously subjective, but he has a very valid and factually-based point. Just admit it is currently a downside (that is highly likely to be improved in the near future) and get on with the discussion.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby matjen » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:47 am

Apology accepted but you continually are referring to the future as if it is a fact and it isn't. I want this car to succeed. I have nothing against it. I would never buy a car with the "hope" that these things come on in a timely fashion (if they are important to you). You could be 2-4 years into the ownership before it gets to some of these areas outside of the coasts or major cities.

So along these lines, it appears they put out a PR blast that claimed triple the number of superchargers by the end of June. I believe they had 8 at the time. They have 13 now. Not even close.

May 30 PR: http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/ ... -free-long

Tesla Board discussion on disappointment: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... out/page12
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:10 am

matjen wrote:Apology accepted but you continually are referring to the future as if it is a fact and it isn't. I want this car to succeed. I have nothing against it. I would never buy a car with the "hope" that these things come on in a timely fashion (if they are important to you). You could be 4 years into the ownership before it gets to some of these areas outside of the coasts or major cities.

So along these lines, it appears they put out a PR blast that claimed triple the number of superchargers by the end of June. I believe they had 8 at the time. They have 13 now. Not even close.

May 30 PR: http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/ ... -free-long

Tesla Board discussion on disappointment: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... out/page12


For me this doesn't really impact my decision to buy the vehicle. I don't doubt Musk will be able to get this done in time, but yes it is a big undertaking and they may not meet their initial time line. Who knows. I think the Gen III which is supposed to be much less expensive and mass marketed, when that arrives on the market it will be much more important to have the supercharger network cross country. I think that is consistent with the 2015 plans. In the meantime it will be a good marketing tool if they have a cross country route in place, even if there are still a lot of areas that need to be filled in.

From a purely financial perspective I think they will be able to come up with the revenue for the network. Each costs around 250K. They were able to raise enough capital earlier this year to pay back a govt loan of close to 1/2 billion (through selling additional stock). Before they paid off the govt loan, when Musk announced they would, a lot of people said, "I'll believe that when I see it, until then it's just speculation."

I can't imagine all the logistics involved in finding a suitable piece of land for the superchargers (in the right locations as well), permits/infrastructure, deals with local businesses to use part of their parking lots, etc. I'm sure there will be some delays in the process, but I believe they will get there. In the meantime I would still buy one because for 99.9% of my driving, I would be charging at home.

From a pure business perspective there are a lot of fascinating things to follow with this company right now.
-Car Dealership Associations trying to ban Tesla sales in certain states. Direct to consumer sales are not allowed in many states, although most people hate the car dealership experience and Tesla's sales model has worked well for them. Petition to the White House with over 100,000 signatures from people who want to block the auto dealership lobbyists from being able to restrict consumer access
-New model coming to market next year (crossover). Will it sell as well as the Model S?
-Overseas markets just being explored. Hong Kong reportedly has hundreds of orders already http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-0 ... -kong.html
-Development of the Gen III---when will it be available?
-Partnerships with other major automakers

Whether you think you will ever buy one or not, it is pretty fascinating to follow right now from a business perspective, and it's not something we often see.......
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Re: Tesla S

Postby jdb » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:01 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:I just looked at the deposit for the X. $40,000 is quite pricey. My wife isn't completely convinced about the Tesla to begin with, and a deposit that large (for a year or two before delivery) is going to require quite a bit of discussion. I guess it's fully refundable though :D

Hi TomatoTomahto. Looks like interesting discussion site. Glad that you are looking at Model X, should be amazing with AWD and falcon wing doors and seating for 7. The first 1000 cars will be special edition signature versions and do require $40K deposits. However regular production vehicles only require $5K deposits which are refundable, I know since put deposit down last year and we are looking forward to delivery in 2015. My wife will then be able to drive the Model S every day which she loves, we now have rule that whichever of us has longer drive that day gets the Tesla since electrical cost is nominal compared to gas for our ICE car.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby TomatoTomahto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:24 am

jdb wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:I just looked at the deposit for the X. $40,000 is quite pricey. My wife isn't completely convinced about the Tesla to begin with, and a deposit that large (for a year or two before delivery) is going to require quite a bit of discussion. I guess it's fully refundable though :D

Hi TomatoTomahto. Looks like interesting discussion site. Glad that you are looking at Model X, should be amazing with AWD and falcon wing doors and seating for 7. The first 1000 cars will be special edition signature versions and do require $40K deposits. However regular production vehicles only require $5K deposits which are refundable, I know since put deposit down last year and that way my wife will drive the
model s every day which she loves, we now have rule that whichever of us has longer drive gets the Tesla since cost is nominal compared to gas for the Lexus 460LS which is our ICE car.

I know my wife's soft spot for acceleration and luxury. I find my normally aspirated Range Rover plenty fast enough, but she loves her Supercharged one which is silly quick. Hers cost enough that the sticker price of the Tesla isn't territory that is unknown to us. I don't care about "signature" status, but she will want every performance feature available, whether it's necessary or not. Since it's one of her few failings, I don't choose to fight that battle :D

Do you know when IIHS crash tests are scheduled for the S model? I need to Google around about its crumple zones; I imagine it was a very different engineering challenge without a large ICE.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby jdb » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:04 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
jdb wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:I just looked at the deposit for the X. $40,000 is quite pricey. My wife isn't completely convinced about the Tesla to begin with, and a deposit that large (for a year or two before delivery) is going to require quite a bit of discussion. I guess it's fully refundable though :D

Hi TomatoTomahto. Looks like interesting discussion site. Glad that you are looking at Model X, should be amazing with AWD and falcon wing doors and seating for 7. The first 1000 cars will be special edition signature versions and do require $40K deposits. However regular production vehicles only require $5K deposits which are refundable, I know since put deposit down last year and that way my wife will drive the
model s every day which she loves, we now have rule that whichever of us has longer drive gets the Tesla since cost is nominal compared to gas for the Lexus 460LS which is our ICE car.

I know my wife's soft spot for acceleration and luxury. I find my normally aspirated Range Rover plenty fast enough, but she loves her Supercharged one which is silly quick. Hers cost enough that the sticker price of the Tesla isn't territory that is unknown to us. I don't care about "signature" status, but she will want every performance feature available, whether it's necessary or not. Since it's one of her few failings, I don't choose to fight that battle :D

Do you know when IIHS crash tests are scheduled for the S model? I need to Google around about its crumple zones; I imagine it was a very different engineering challenge without a large ICE.
v
Model S received highest crash rating, five stars. Probably one of safest 4 door sedans ever built due to very low center of gravity and 1000 pound steel encased battery below car and of course no gas tank. You might want to google recent very tragic accident in California when Tesla met head on with Honda and both Honda driver and passenger killed and Tesla driver was able to open door and get out I believe without serious injury. The Model X with AWD is reputed to have better accelleration than my performance Model S which will probably out accelerate in quarter mile from stop every 911 Porsche other than Turbo version. You need to experience the immediate torque of a Tesla to truly appreciate it.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Diogenes » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:52 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:
Diogenes wrote:\
By the protests to any opposing viewpoints, it appears that some here have already driven it and are now looking to justify a pending purchase to themselves, or perhaps have placed that deposit and are nervous about the long wait. Your mind is made up, but you are still the very small minority. The rest are waiting and evaluating. I remember the Delorean - it was also billed as the change all even though it was gas powered - try to find one on the road now. It is very hard for a new small car company to survive - especially if it cannot serve most people's needs - regardless of government support.

We will see if they are still selling in 2-3 years or have lost the leap to the next better technology that serves the 90 percent. When it does, electric or otherwise, that will be the real success story.


I don't think anyone "protests opposing viewpoints". It's more about being weary of ignorant viewpoints. You can see it in the posts above, another poster thought it took "hours" to charge. This was incorrect, which I pointed out. Superchargers are free and by next year you will be able to drive coast to coast using them---and they don't take "hours". Will they be as ubiquitous as gas stations? No. But there will be enough of them to travel most areas of the country, charging for free along the way.

Then someone else comments on "having to replace a battery after 3 years because it's lost 50% of its capacity". The batteries have an 8 year warranty.

I think it's fair to say that for some people, even the minor inconvenience is not worth the hassle or the price point is too high, don't want to be an "early adopter", etc. Those things I can understand. But at least know what you are talking about before you knock the car.

And I've heard the Delorean reference over and over. I don't get it. I wasn't very old when the Delorean came out, but exactly what part of the Delorean was a game changer of a vehicle? Other than perhaps its body style? It just seems like a ridiculous comparison to make. Did the Delorean ever score 99 on Consumer Reports? Did it ever outsell comparable vehicles from Audi, Mercedes, etc for an entire quarter?

Edit: A decade ago people had a lot of ignorant arguments about the Prius too, as to why it wouldn't sell, wouldn't last, wouldn't do well at resale, battery costs would be exorbitant and cars would be worthless when they needed a new battery, etc. Each and every one of those were absolutely false.



DWFinvestor,

I think from the replies you see my point (and btw, I am also not ignorant, but I am asking hard questions). I realize you are buying a Tesla, or already have which has colored your responses as you are protecting your investment. While understandable, that could be described as 'ignorant.' You probably don't get the Delorean reference as you were not there - I was. It was new company, no good sales infrastructure, new and interesting technology but without a track record, fighting the established car sales models only with government help...sound familiar? Big difference was it did not have a refueling issue.

I am not partial either way as I like the technology idea, but not the price, the direct purchase option, but not having only 27 Superchargers nationwide 'sometime in the future'. There are about 50,000 miles of interstate highways alone in the U.S. and currently 168,000 traditional fueling stations - do you see the problem? You are advocating for your Tesla and call others who bring up valid concerns 'ignorant'. Just a false argument and one unsually seen in weak politics. We all need a new personal transportation technology. Perhaps, or perhaps not, it is the Tesla. If not, maybe it will be the next company that comes along and solves the range/refueling time problem.
Lets just deal with the facts.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:55 pm

jdb wrote:Model S received highest crash rating, five stars.


When did they release the crash rating results? I follow Tesla fairly closely and I must have missed it.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby BigFoot48 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:06 pm

Will Tesla allow other electric or plugin-hybrid cars use their charging stations for a fee, or is it Tesla-only?
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:20 pm

Diogenes wrote:

DWFinvestor,

I think from the replies you see my point (and btw, I am also not ignorant, but I am asking hard questions). I realize you are buying a Tesla, or already have which has colored your responses as you are protecting your investment. While understandable, that could be described as 'ignorant.' You probably don't get the Delorean reference as you were not there - I was. It was new company, no good sales infrastructure, new and interesting technology but without a track record, fighting the established car sales models only with government help...sound familiar? Big difference was it did not have a refueling issue.

I am not partial either way as I like the technology idea, but not the price, the direct purchase option, but not having only 27 Superchargers nationwide 'sometime in the future'. There are about 50,000 miles of interstate highways alone in the U.S. and currently 168,000 traditional fueling stations - do you see the problem? You are advocating for your Tesla and call others who bring up valid concerns 'ignorant'. Just a false argument and one unsually seen in weak politics. We all need a new personal transportation technology. Perhaps, or perhaps not, it is the Tesla. If not, maybe it will be the next company that comes along and solves the range/refueling time problem.
Lets just deal with the facts.


I actually haven't even ordered a Model S yet, because the sticker price for me is more than I ever intended to spend on a vehicle. I drive a Camry Hybrid that is 5.5 years old and has been paid off for 3.5 years. I'm trying to get six years out of it, and then I will consider buying something new. It's getting more difficult month to month though because I feel like I've been a glutton for punishment long enough. I work with people who make 1/4 of what I do and drive nicer cars than I do, and I'm ready for an upgrade....

I will apologize to you as well for crossing the line with some of my comments. I've always been a bit passionate about getting away from fossil fuels---for reasons far beyond this discussion and not limited to global warming :D I've listened to naysayers since the Prius first came out as to why it wouldn't succeed, they were wrong and I believe the same will ultimately be said of people who are critical of Tesla, often without having the facts or doing any actual research. Whether or not that applies to you, I guess I am "ignorant" as to how much you have researched the company and car.

I do think the Delorean comparison is not a valid one because Delorean only sold a little over 9,000 vehicles. Tesla has already exceeded that just in the past six months, they are getting rave reviews and a near perfect Consumer Reports score, and are already taking orders for a new model which won't be available for at least six months. There just isn't much validity to the comparison as far as I'm concerned. I'd be willing to wager Tesla sells more vehicles in Hong Kong than Delorean sold in the life of the company.

I think with economies of scale the battery price will come down, and it's easy to imagine how a Gen III could be priced at a level palatable to a much wider market. When you consider the fact that there are probably less than 15,000 Teslas on the road----nationwide----and they already have 12 superchargers available with plans for significant expansion, that's pretty darn impressive.

I think we've pretty well covered the topic and I will apologize again for my comments. Look for a thread from me in a few months asking the boglehead community if they think given my budget, net worth, etc, a $90,000 car is a reasonable splurge :D
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Re: Tesla S

Postby ryuns » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:08 pm

Diogenes wrote:
ValueThinker, you are not giving 'value' to this conversation. Most Teslas in the NW are showing up in Seattle, the largest metro area and are serviced by Puget Sound Energy. PSE provides only about half of the electric power they need from hydroelectric (I called them), 32 percent is from coal power purchased from elsewhere. What you found out in 'three seconds on the internet' was apparently false. If you searched an extra few seconds your would find the same info on their site. Coal accounts for nearly 50 percent of electricity nationwide (confirmed also by your quoted link). Hydroelectric power is only 6 percent of the electricity in the United States, so doubtful most Tesla owners will be using it. So nationwide if you use electricity you are burning coal half the time at least.


_D_


I fail to see how this contradicts anything that VT stated. He noted that EVEN IF you're running regular grid electricity, it's more efficient to run off electric. It seems that the numbers agree with that assumptions, even at 50% coal. You're just quibbling with a few points where you think he was in error, but which were not the point. (By the way, much of the Seattle area gets their electricity from Seattle City Light, which IS nearly all hydro.)

But focusing on the wonky stuff about upstream greenhouse gas emissions misses a couple point. First, the grid get should get cleaner over time, so your car should get cleaner over time. You can also install your own solar panels or pay for your utility's marginal costs for cleaner sources. (YMMV with green utility programs, but locally, it does what it says, and it's independently audited.) This does not appreciably occur with ICE's. Second, criteria pollutants (the stuff that's bad to breathe) are an unequivocal win for electric cars. Yes, coal is dirty BUT: damage is generally limited by siting (e.g., no coal plants in Los Angeles), pollution is easier to control at a single source and controls can be improved over time, coal is not readily dispatchable, so it's very unlikely that your plugging in your car is causing an increase in emissions from coal plants.

I should add that this discussion did get a little heated and I don't mean to add to that.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby jdb » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:45 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:
jdb wrote:Model S received highest crash rating, five stars.


When did they release the crash rating results? I follow Tesla fairly closely and I must have missed it.

Hi DFWInvestor. I may have been mistaken. Official govt results may not yet have been released. I thought that I had read last year that Model S got official 5 star rating. As I tell my wife each time I am wrong there is always a first time.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby inbox788 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:12 pm

matjen wrote:Uh, isn't the obvious point being made that 100% of ICE cars have basically unlimited range with the occasional 5 minute refuel? It's not that they can all literally go 450 miles without stopping. A Tesla S looks to be a fine car but it takes hours to charge I believe.

Taking a good car on a road trip is a great pleasure and owning a $100,000 car that can't go on a road trip is a minus any way you look at it. In my life there have been entire years where I had long distance relationships or loved ones in nursing homes that required multiple trips a month over 300-450 miles.


SUPERCHARGE!
300 MILES RANGE PER HOUR OF CHARGE
The Tesla Supercharger recharges Model S quickly. Super quickly. Superchargers are for refueling quickly on road trips. A Supercharger can charge about half the battery in 30 minutes. All Model S vehicles with the 85 kWh battery can use Superchargers as can properly equipped 60 kWh battery vehicles. Superchargers will be positioned at convenient locations along major interstates throughout the country.

http://www.teslamotors.com/charging

The EV1 showed that most people can live within a certain range, but range anxiety is a factor among others that deter folks from buying electric vehicles. Someone with frequent trips on the road away from charging sources is a poor candidate for electric cars, but many people never really leave town often. If there is a second car, or access to a rental (some electric cars have included or proposed including a limited number of rental days of an ICE car), that can resolve a majority of people concerns. There are still other issues to overcome and their outcome is still to be determined, but promising. I don't count out hybrids, if only to carry a small engine to continuously charge the battery as a transitional technology, like the current breed of hybrids. Bigger and bigger battery packs/capacity and smaller and smaller gas engines. Plugin hybrids seem to be the logical choice for the present technology until there are charging stations in every corner (though market hasn't voted that way yet).

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/how-d ... electrics/
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Frugal Al » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:25 pm

jdb wrote: You might want to google recent very tragic accident in California when Tesla met head on with Honda and both Honda driver and passenger killed and Tesla driver was able to open door and get out I believe without serious injury.

The driver of the Tesla went left of center and struck a vehicle that weighed 2,000 lbs less and was 23 years older. Is it a surprise the Tesla came out better than a 1990 Honda Accord in a frontal collision? I should hope not.

And speaking of the roughly 4,600 lb. weight of the Tesla S, you're always carrying that weight around. That's 400 lbs. more than a Lexus LS, and 1000 lb. more than the Lexus ES. So much for being green--driving a heavy vehicle that is 50% powered by coal.

I like Tesla and I hope it succeeds. I love the torque and I love the promised simplicity of an all electric drive train. But let's be realistic with this conspicuous consumption that is less green than a Prius, which weighs 2,000 lbs less. If someone wants to buy one, great, but don't do it under the pretense that it's so green. Buy it because of it's innovative design; buy it because you're an early adopter car nut; buy it because it goes like stink, and its handling makes great use of its low center of gravity. But to rationalize that it's green is a bit disingenuous in my opinion.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby DFWinvestor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:00 pm

Frugal Al wrote:But to rationalize that it's green is a bit disingenuous in my opinion.


Growth of clean/renewable energy sources is exponential right now. Here's just one link to TX: http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrp ... e/wind.php

I have been on wind energy for the past seven years. Solar is becoming cheaper all the time, and leasing options are now available where you don't even have to buy your own panels.

I don't think anyone is under the pretense this car is 100% green. No mode of transportation ----even a bicycle---is 100% green. But it's a lot better than the ways of old, and our grid is going to get cleaner every year for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby lightheir » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:36 pm

Frugal Al wrote:
jdb wrote: You might want to google recent very tragic accident in California when Tesla met head on with Honda and both Honda driver and passenger killed and Tesla driver was able to open door and get out I believe without serious injury.

The driver of the Tesla went left of center and struck a vehicle that weighed 2,000 lbs less and was 23 years older. Is it a surprise the Tesla came out better than a 1990 Honda Accord in a frontal collision? I should hope not.

And speaking of the roughly 4,600 lb. weight of the Tesla S, you're always carrying that weight around. That's 400 lbs. more than a Lexus LS, and 1000 lb. more than the Lexus ES. So much for being green--driving a heavy vehicle that is 50% powered by coal.

I like Tesla and I hope it succeeds. I love the torque and I love the promised simplicity of an all electric drive train. But let's be realistic with this conspicuous consumption that is less green than a Prius, which weighs 2,000 lbs less. If someone wants to buy one, great, but don't do it under the pretense that it's so green. Buy it because of it's innovative design; buy it because you're an early adopter car nut; buy it because it goes like stink, and its handling makes great use of its low center of gravity. But to rationalize that it's green is a bit disingenuous in my opinion.


I don't think anyone believes the Tesla in its current incarnation is a fully 'green' car - NO car would ever meet that criteria. Everyone here and elsewhere knows full well that even with its greatly decreased emissions from EV, it still has a significant environmental impact in the construction and even the upkeep.

However, I think your critique that it's simply not compatible with environmentally-minded people is incorrect. EV cars hold the promise to significantly (VERY significantly, actually) drop emissions and fossil fuel consumption. The Tesla is on the cutting edge of that technology. You're outright wrong to suggest that the Tesla would be what it is today without holding that promise of a better eco-future, even if it's not quite there yet today. Yes, it outaccelerates a Porsche, and styles well, but that all pales compared to the real feature, which is it's true midrange EV performance.

This is the same old, lame argument that people threw (and continue to) around the Prius, saying it was totally eco-unfriendly, blah blah blah. Now it's a leading (actually THE leading car in CA) selling car, and by that alone, it's displacing enough less inefficient combustion engine vehicles that there's no way you can say that the Prius was worse for the environment, even if it's far from the be all end all in green tech.

Finally, your arguments about the car weight being a penalty to the Tesla is also incorrect. You don't care how much the Tesla weighs as long as its EV performance is substantially better per mile than an internal combustion engine. Even with that extra weight, the Tesla generates so much less emission than a combustion engine that you can't even compare the two. Even with the added weight it's still putting out vastly fewer emissions than a lighter car.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby sambb » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:58 pm

another problem with the tesla is that it looks like a dodge intrepid. i think there are several other better looking sedans in the 90k price range. it is an interesting car, but the looks and resale uncertainty with >5 yrs ownership are high for a 90k car. I see tesla roadsters for sale, and the resale value is fairly low even with low miles.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby madbrain » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:49 pm

BigFoot48 wrote:Will Tesla allow other electric or plugin-hybrid cars use their charging stations for a fee, or is it Tesla-only?


It's Tesla-only. Their superchargers are actually proprietary technology. There are no other cars that can technically plug in to them.

It is unfortunate that they went this way. There are existing quick charging standards that they could have chosen. For example, the Chademo standard used by my Nissan Leaf.
There are not many of them, but still far more than the 12 Tesla superchargers nationwide. I have been to 6 Chademo chargers in the SF bay area in the last 2 months. All were free so far due to them being in early "beta" rollout. Of course, Leaf drivers need them much more due to the very limited range of the car (73 miles EPA).

Supposedly there will be adapters for Chademo to Tesla in the future, but they are not available yet.

Other EV manufacturers are going with yet other standards.
SAE invented yet another plug for DC fast charging. There isn't a single quick charger with that plug worldwide. And not a single car out with it either.

See http://insideevs.com/dc-quick-charging- ... ercharger/

It is just sad that manufacturers can't agree on one quick charging standard. This will hamper adoption of EVs.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Frugal Al » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:06 am

DFWinvestor wrote:I don't think anyone is under the pretense this car is 100% green. No mode of transportation ----even a bicycle---is 100% green. But it's a lot better than the ways of old, and our grid is going to get cleaner every year for the foreseeable future.
lightheir wrote: I think your critique that it's simply not compatible with environmentally-minded people is incorrect.

According to some bright people EVs are not better than the best alternatives today. And my critique is compatible with quite a few environmentally minded people. Once again, I like the Tesla, but if you want to be green, you'd be better off with a Prius. Let's not kid ourselves that driving any 4600 lb family sedan is green (btw, that's about the same weight as a 1960 Coupe Deville). Give me a break. Good article here that was recently published. http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewab ... -any-speed
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Re: Tesla S

Postby eucalyptus » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:53 am

I think the Tesla S is an interesting, pretty car. When the tech and practical issues are sorted, I might buy a :!: future generation. Until then, for the money, there are loads of more interesting, prettier, better performing cars that, compared to cars of the recent past, produce very low emissions. I think the current generation of cars like the Tesla will become obsolete very quickly. I feel the same way about "super" cars incorporating regenerative and other "green" tech, like the new McLaren and Ferrari.

Good luck with the beta testing, though!
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Re: Tesla S

Postby ryuns » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:27 pm

madbrain wrote:
BigFoot48 wrote:Will Tesla allow other electric or plugin-hybrid cars use their charging stations for a fee, or is it Tesla-only?


It's Tesla-only. Their superchargers are actually proprietary technology. There are no other cars that can technically plug in to them.

It is unfortunate that they went this way. There are existing quick charging standards that they could have chosen. For example, the Chademo standard used by my Nissan Leaf.
There are not many of them, but still far more than the 12 Tesla superchargers nationwide. I have been to 6 Chademo chargers in the SF bay area in the last 2 months. All were free so far due to them being in early "beta" rollout. Of course, Leaf drivers need them much more due to the very limited range of the car (73 miles EPA).

Supposedly there will be adapters for Chademo to Tesla in the future, but they are not available yet.

Other EV manufacturers are going with yet other standards.
SAE invented yet another plug for DC fast charging. There isn't a single quick charger with that plug worldwide. And not a single car out with it either.

See http://insideevs.com/dc-quick-charging- ... ercharger/

It is just sad that manufacturers can't agree on one quick charging standard. This will hamper adoption of EVs.


I agree that the lack of a standard is disappointing, but Tesla's technology for fast-charging and, now, for battery-swapping are pretty intriguing, and I wonder if part of their game plan is to eventually license that technology to other EV makers and become a de facto standard.
An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. -- GK Chesterton
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Re: Tesla S

Postby madbrain » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:02 pm

ryuns wrote:I agree that the lack of a standard is disappointing, but Tesla's technology for fast-charging and, now, for battery-swapping are pretty intriguing, and I wonder if part of their game plan is to eventually license that technology to other EV makers and become a de facto standard.


The battery swapping technology they have is very impressive, but I have my doubts that it can be generalized to multiple vehicles of different type from different manufacturers.

Maybe they do plan on licensing their charging technology. There are more cars with Chademo connectors today than Tesla, though. But admittedly, still not too many of either type. The only advantage I see is the higher peak charging rate that Tesla has vs Chademo. But the charging rate drops dramatically over time when you want to do a full charge.

For example, Chademo claims it can recharge 80% on my Leaf in under 30 minutes, and I believe that's true. I have never run my car down to 0% to test this. But my "quick" charge last night from 73% to 100% took 38 minutes, including 24 minutes from 98% to 100%. I'm sure Tesla S and Superchargers suffer from a similar problem. Tesla only quotes the charging time for a 50% charge on their Supercharger. They also don't specify which model (60 or 85 kWh) the charge time is for. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual 100% charge time was 90 minutes for the 85 kWh model.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

What is a Supercharger and why is it unique?

A Supercharger is a fast-charge station capable of delivering up to 50% battery capacity to Model S in about 20 minutes, roughly 16 times faster than most public charging stations.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby jdb » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:46 pm

DFWinvestor wrote:
jdb wrote:Model S received highest crash rating, five stars.


When did they release the crash rating results? I follow Tesla fairly closely and I must have missed it.

Update for DFWinvestor. See attached crash test just released. I was just a little ahead of the curve. http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2013-te ... tests.html
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Re: Tesla S

Postby Polar_Ice » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:31 pm

I see them on the road daily and admit it is a very nice looking car. Just don't buy one thinking you are helping the environment instead of driving a SUV, buy one for the performance, no visits to the pump, and the tax credits. :happy
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Re: Tesla S

Postby midareff » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:39 pm

I'd like to see an analysis that covers two things.... #1. Roads and bridge infrastructure in the US is funded by the federal tax on fuel... gasoline and diesel. As cars move to electric and hybrids with enhanced fuel economy what happens to what the funding was supposed to maintain?

#2. Let's suppose these things actually get real market penetration.... shall we all nuke some popcorn and watch the electric grid disintegrate with cooking, air-conditioning or heat, and cars plugged in?

CNBC said something today about the stock price... company is valued at something like $700K per car to be produced this year.. can that be right? Are the shorts listening?
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Re: Tesla S

Postby madbrain » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:24 pm

midareff wrote:I'd like to see an analysis that covers two things.... #1. Roads and bridge infrastructure in the US is funded by the federal tax on fuel... gasoline and diesel. As cars move to electric and hybrids with enhanced fuel economy what happens to what the funding was supposed to maintain?


The federal taxes on fuel have long failed to keep up with the costs of infrastructure in the US, regardless of hybrids or EVs. Fixes and changes in taxes are needed, but I think this is political and somewhat forbidden in this forum. I am sure politicians will find some way though, whether by raising annual registration fees, sales taxes on vehicles, or taxes per mile driven.

#2. Let's suppose these things actually get real market penetration.... shall we all nuke some popcorn and watch the electric grid disintegrate with cooking, air-conditioning or heat, and cars plugged in?


Most EVs are charged at night. There is usually a lot of unused grid capacity at that time. EVs aren't likely to become a huge grid strain as long as that remains the case.
Utilities may need to change their rate schedules in order to prevent people from charging during daytime. This can be in the forms of time of use rates or peak power charges.
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Re: Tesla S

Postby lightheir » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 pm

Polar_Ice wrote:I see them on the road daily and admit it is a very nice looking car. Just don't buy one thinking you are helping the environment instead of driving a SUV, buy one for the performance, no visits to the pump, and the tax credits. :happy


You could have said the same thing about the Prius, or even made the same case for early gas-efficiency favored car models.

It's a first, necessary step to wider acceptance and it's nice to have some deep-pocketed early adopters take the plunge. At the least, it's nice to see a car that's not a big gas-guzzling sports car or flashy vehicle get accloades.
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