What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Ged »

ruralavalon wrote:I didn't even get what the "M" stands for.
Not surprising. The definition of M is somewhat open at this time. Ed Witten has suggested the meaning of the title should be decided when a more fundamental formulation of the theory is known.

I wouldn't worry about it. My personal philosophy is to not to pay attention to theories that cannot be tested.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by ruralavalon »

Ged wrote:
ruralavalon wrote:I didn't even get what the "M" stands for.
Not surprising. The definition of M is somewhat open at this time. Ed Witten has suggested the meaning of the title should be decided when a more fundamental formulation of the theory is known.

I wouldn't worry about it. My personal philosophy is to not to pay attention to theories that cannot be tested.
wikipedia, M-theory, Origin of the term wrote:In the absence of an understanding of the true meaning and structure of M-theory, Witten has suggested that the M should stand for "magic", "mystery", or "matrix" according to taste, and the true meaning of the title should be decided when a more fundamental formulation of the theory is known.
"M-theory, Origin of the term"; and "Edward Witten".

AHA!!!! Now I really don't understand :shock:
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by LadyGeek »

Friday, by Robert A. Heinlein.

I already had it in paperback, so I thought it was worth a try. The opening was interesting, but then he dropped down to the stereotypical female attitudes that I despised in I Will Fear No Evil. I get the impression he's trying to modernize his views, but reverts whenever Friday gets into a household relationship. I'm about half-way through, and it's getting interesting again.

My next book won't be Heinlein. I also don't think I'll be reading any more of his later series.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by rgardne70 »

I notice a lot of people mention that they have just read a book by Stuart Wood.

I have not read any of his books. But based on all the people who list him, I may have to pick up one of his books.

I am just curious what so many people like about his writing.

Thank you.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by gkaplan »

rgardne70 wrote:I notice a lot of people mention that they have just read a book by Stuart Wood.

I have not read any of his books. But based on all the people who list him, I may have to pick up one of his books.

I am just curious what so many people like about his writing.

Thank you.

I think Chaz is the only one reading Stuart Wood on regular basis, at least those posting in this thread.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by steve roy »

Re-reading Gore Vidal's "Lincoln" after a thirty-year break. It's about 85% history and about 15% fiction, with a lot of Vidalesque embroidery that makes it vivid and allows it to sing. Like it a lot. (I REALLY like Vidal's essays.)
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

LadyGeek wrote:Friday, by Robert A. Heinlein.

I already had it in paperback, so I thought it was worth a try. The opening was interesting, but then he dropped down to the stereotypical female attitudes that I despised in I Will Fear No Evil. I get the impression he's trying to modernize his views, but reverts whenever Friday gets into a household relationship. I'm about half-way through, and it's getting interesting again.

My next book won't be Heinlein. I also don't think I'll be reading any more of his later series.
To be a broken record, his juveniles (plus the big 3 - Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers, Double Star) and his 'Past Through Tomorrow' are what is worth reading about Heinlein. I don't think he wrote anything after MIAHM which is really worth reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinlein_juveniles

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/robert-heinlein/

All of these novels remain eminently readable and I've never found anything quite as gripping as they were in that genre. They were aimed at the market for science fiction in the 1950s: which was young boys. So the heroes tend to be young boys/ young men. The (female point of view) novel which complements then is Alexei Panshin 'Rite of Passage' which is a Heinlein answer to Heinlein (Panshin wrote a very critical biography of Heinlein as well 'Heinlein in Dimension').

Note Heinlein himself did not see 'Podkayne of Mars' as a 'juvenile' novel despite its subject being a teenage girl.

Friday you almost felt he was reaching back to what had made him great. I think it is basically a sequel to a short story called 'Gulf' (I am vague on this) that he wrote in the 50s. But the novel falls apart. Something like Light Raid (Connie Willis) does it better.

Yes I agree his attitudes about women are contradictory. On the one hand there is this terrible sexism about women as breeders. On the other hand, he wrote some of SF's most vivid and strong female characters: highly (improbably) multi talented women. It's not so shocking now to have a female character like Friday who is both hyper smart, lethally deadly and very good in bed. But go back to the 1950s SF did not have characters like that. In genre fiction generally Modesty Blaise from the 60s (female James Bond). But contrast say to Ian Fleming's reasonably neanderthal view of women in James Bond novels (all written before 1965 from memory).

Friday is naive. But she is also superhuman: both in and out of bed. I am reminded of Commander Data in Star Trek The Next Generation.

I don't think we would have seen Tasha Yar or the security officer in Star Trek DS9 or Captain Janeways (or 7 of 9) in ST Voyager if Robert A Heinlein hadn't been writing those multi talented women into his novels. (to be fair to Gene Rodenberry, in the abortive pilot for Star Trek, the First Officer was Majel Barratt (later Mrs. Jean Rodenberry) -- the network insisted she be demoted to Nurse Christine Chapel and the science officer (always Leonard Nimoy) was promoted to first officer (a role which never really worked in my mind-- Riker was much closer to what a First Officer on a ship would be).

The other pathbreaker was James H Schmitz (Telzey Amberdon, Trigger Argee and the heroine in The Demon Breed) who consistently wrote strong female central characters.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/james-schmitz/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Schmitz

his Witches of Karres, about 3 kidnapped 'children' who turn out to be more than anyone bargained for, is a classic.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Ricola »

The Kill Room by Jeffery Deaver

This is the first of his novels that I am reading. Also just received the movie The Bone Collector which is the same novel character. I'll give it whirl.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by LadyGeek »

Valuethinker wrote:...Friday is naive. But she is also superhuman: both in and out of bed. I am reminded of Commander Data in Star Trek The Next Generation.

I don't think we would have seen Tasha Yar or the security officer in Star Trek DS9 or Captain Janeways (or 7 of 9) in ST Voyager if Robert A Heinlein hadn't been writing those multi talented women into his novels. (to be fair to Gene Rodenberry, in the abortive pilot for Star Trek, the First Officer was Majel Barratt (later Mrs. Jean Rodenberry) -- the network insisted she be demoted to Nurse Christine Chapel and the science officer (always Leonard Nimoy) was promoted to first officer (a role which never really worked in my mind-- Riker was much closer to what a First Officer on a ship would be).

The other pathbreaker was James H Schmitz (Telzey Amberdon, Trigger Argee and the heroine in The Demon Breed) who consistently wrote strong female central characters.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/james-schmitz/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Schmitz

his Witches of Karres, about 3 kidnapped 'children' who turn out to be more than anyone bargained for, is a classic.
Fascinating, as I never considered that aspect. I am in full agreement. As Commander Data? Perhaps not. Tasha Yar? Most definitely.* I'd say 7 of 9 also fits. Captain Janeway, somewhat.

I wasn't aware of the network influence to demot Majel Barratt to Nurse Chapel.

You spoiled my next post, as the Witches of Karres will indeed be my next book. I have been keeping track of your posts...

* I remember the episode of her death - A reminder that a simple slip in the most routine unsuspecting event can get you killed.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Shakespeare »

LadyGeek wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:...Friday is naive. But she is also superhuman: both in and out of bed. I am reminded of Commander Data in Star Trek The Next Generation.

I don't think we would have seen Tasha Yar or the security officer in Star Trek DS9 or Captain Janeways (or 7 of 9) in ST Voyager if Robert A Heinlein hadn't been writing those multi talented women into his novels. (to be fair to Gene Rodenberry, in the abortive pilot for Star Trek, the First Officer was Majel Barratt (later Mrs. Jean Rodenberry) -- the network insisted she be demoted to Nurse Christine Chapel and the science officer (always Leonard Nimoy) was promoted to first officer (a role which never really worked in my mind-- Riker was much closer to what a First Officer on a ship would be).

The other pathbreaker was James H Schmitz (Telzey Amberdon, Trigger Argee and the heroine in The Demon Breed) who consistently wrote strong female central characters.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/james-schmitz/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Schmitz

his Witches of Karres, about 3 kidnapped 'children' who turn out to be more than anyone bargained for, is a classic.
Fascinating, as I never considered that aspect. I am in full agreement. As Commander Data? Perhaps not. Tasha Yar? Most definitely.* I'd say 7 of 9 also fits. Captain Janeway, somewhat.

I wasn't aware of the network influence to demot Majel Barratt to Nurse Chapel.

You spoiled my next post, as the Witches of Karres will indeed be my next book. I have been keeping track of your posts...

* I remember the episode of her death - A reminder that a simple slip in the most routine unsuspecting event can get you killed.
When you panned Podkayne I was not surprised you didn't like Friday, which I would not have recommended.

One not on Valuethinker's list is The Door into Summer, which is a fun rather than compelling read.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by LadyGeek »

Friday was interesting enough for me to continue reading (vs. stop and read something else).
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by chaz »

I read Shakespeare's plays in an English lit course. Now he's posting here.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by nisiprius »

I'm nibbling away at the freebie standalone short story, Wool, by Hugh Howey.

And at Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen which is still not quite grabbing me. I'm at the part where they are trying to find out whether Lydia and Wickham have actually eloped to Gretna Green and, if not, where they did go. It is curious to think of people trying to cope with this when they didn't have cell phones... just I wish old books about people traveling made it clearer just you did this without credit cards. Did you carry the whole trip's supply in sovereigns and risk it being lost to a cutpurse, or did you rely and being able to go to the nearest branch of Rothschild's with a letter of credit?

Finished reading the (play) The Admirable Crichton, by J. M. Barrie. Started his series of short stories, Auld Licht Idylls but don't think I'm going to finish it. A bit too far from anything I can personally relate to. By the way, Did You Know that the name "Wendy" may not quite have originated with "Peter Pan" but was hugely popularized by it, and that as known to Barrie it was not short for Gwendolyn but was a child's mispronunciation--she wanted to say "Friendy" and said "Fwendy?"
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Retired1809 »

Reading Stuart Woods' "Carnal Curiosity." A Stone Barrington mystery. Good summer reading.

Waiting for the new "Jesse Stone" book coming out in September.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by VictoriaF »

chaz wrote:I read Shakespeare's plays in an English lit course. Now he's posting here.
It's time to re-read Shakespeare.

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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by jginseattle »

I'm just finishing up Trunk Music, by Michael Connelly. It's the best Connelly novel that I've read so far, but it's only my third.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by nisiprius »

VictoriaF wrote:
chaz wrote:I read Shakespeare's plays in an English lit course. Now he's posting here.
It's time to re-read Shakespeare.

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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by LadyGeek »

VictoriaF wrote:...
It's time to re-read Shakespeare.

Victoria
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

Shakespeare wrote:When you panned Podkayne I was not surprised you didn't like Friday, which I would not have recommended.

One not on Valuethinker's list is The Door into Summer, which is a fun rather than compelling read.
[Attribution fixed by admin LadyGeek]

I'd put Invasion of the Puppet Masters above that one (but I get Door into Summer and Beyond This Horizon mixed up-- the latter one has Hamilton Felix? DiS turns out to be the only thing by RAH I have never read* (along with some of the short fiction, discovered that out of this discussion).

Lady Geek did not like Double Star, which I found compelling. IotPM is like everything Heinlein did (at least up until the 1960s) - -defined the cliche for others less skilful to follow, or rather made a gripping read out of a cliche. An alien invasion novel, parallels to communist subversion (I am not clear whether Heinlein was warning of same, or riffing on same). And yet it's Heinlein, and I found it a complete page turner, with parts I can almost quote out of memory.

* I didn't read 'Job' and some of the later Lazarus Long stuff.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

LadyGeek wrote: Fascinating, as I never considered that aspect. I am in full agreement. As Commander Data? Perhaps not. Tasha Yar? Most definitely.* I'd say 7 of 9 also fits. Captain Janeway, somewhat.
Data is a created human, a Pinnochio character struggling to be a real boy. Spock, Data, Odo, 7 of Nine, there's always one of those in the ST cast, it's a strength of the series's, because it allows them to visit the question of 'what is a human?' and also 'how do we treat our creations?' (remember when Data goes on trial?).

Friday is also a created person. Racism towards same is a central part of the novel. Plus her discovery of what it is to be human. She's emotionally naive even though superhuman in capabilities. That reminds me of Data.

Whereas Tasha Yar is a strong female character but she's definitely human. Her past is one of trauma (rape gangs during a breakdown of law and order on her home planet- TNG got off its 'nicey nicey' track for once). Starfleet is her family because she has no other. And then she dies, tragically and with no warning. Which is how people die in the real world.
I wasn't aware of the network influence to demot Majel Barratt to Nurse Chapel.
I don't know if the original episode 'The Cage' is available anywhere. But it is fascinating, much closer to the movie 'Forbidden Planet' than to the ST: The Original Series, that we all saw. It became the 2 parter 'the Menagerie' when the show was pulled after the pilot and rewritten. One reason for the rewrite was to make the science fiction more futuristic seeming: eg phasers instead of lasers (the producers thought lasers had become old hat). Transporters I don't think were in the original either (not sure). And so the first episode became 'Where No Man Has Gone Before', itself a powerful episode (I could be wrong, but I think the only one to show the Phaser Rifle, ie a throwback to the laser rifles of the original concept).

But somewhere the network felt a female First Officer was too much for the audience. So they promoted the Science Officer to First Officer-- a character move which never made sense in my view, Spock was never a command authority. And whereas in the pilot, Majel Barratt has an unrequitted crush on Kirk (which the telepaths reveal) in ST: TOS they switch that to nurse Chapel and Spock-- more interesting but never properly developed.

Rodenberry may have traded that off against having a black woman on the Bridge- an important breakthrough in TV casting. There had been other black main characters (the actor in Mission Impossible, the tech expert) but it was a double whammy. I think though by the late 60s the Network was sensitive to the cries of the black power movement etc. so maybe it's just the time was right.

(we now know Rodenberry was having an affair with Nichelle Nichols/ Lieut. Uhura (not sure when he married Majel Barratt). Majel Barratt went on to be the voice of the computer in successive ST series and like Mark Leonard (Sarek of Vulcan, Spock's Father) an enduring actor for the successive series'.

Perhaps what is depressing is that black actresses haven't had more major roles since. Zoe Saldana is proving to be an interesting 'new' Lieut. Uhura (with a sub plot about Kirk's jealousy over her relationship with Spock) and catch her in Guardians of the Galaxy. But I can't think of major network TV series with a black actress a central character (arguably Uhura wasn't that central, and SIgourney Weaver does a brilliant sendup of her in Galaxy Quest, but still). Pam Grier had a run of 'blackxploitation' flicks, and then was rehabbed into 'Jackie Brown' (a fantastic film in my view) but one just doesn't, I don't think, see strong black female characters in network TV?

For all the problems with Star Trek The Original Series, plot holes, overacting, characterization etc, and its sequels, there is still something so fundamentally American, optimistic, forward looking about that title sequence, when Kirk's voice intones

'Space the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise...'

It still sends a chill down my spine, that and the title music.
You spoiled my next post, as the Witches of Karres will indeed be my next book. I have been keeping track of your posts...
For which apologies.
* I remember the episode of her death - A reminder that a simple slip in the most routine unsuspecting event can get you killed.
I have personal reasons to know that.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

LadyGeek wrote: Fascinating, as I never considered that aspect. I am in full agreement. As Commander Data? Perhaps not. Tasha Yar? Most definitely.* I'd say 7 of 9 also fits. Captain Janeway, somewhat.
I can't assert this is what caused Rodenberry to cast as he did. I have no idea if Rodenberry read Heinlein-- but part of Star Trek seems to draw straight from 'Space Cadet' (the Interplanetary Patrol) so who knows? Other SF writers of the 'Golden Age' lacked strong female characters. With the honourable exception of Dr. Susan Calvin of US Robotics (Isaac Asimov) who was no action heroine.

Data, 7 of 9 and Odo (and his sometime girlfriend, Major Kira?) are all the Pinnochio characters of ST. Created people who want to become real people. Their self discovery of what it is to be human, and the problems thereof, are an underlying theme of the series. Perhaps appealing to the adolescent in us who made that same journey (and is still making it) and that geeky kid who sat there wondering 'why do people do that?'

Friday is a Pinnochio character. Superpowered and superhuman, but a bit lost in human machinations. Being Robert Heinlein in his late period, she's also a superbeing in bed.

We live in a culture now which celebrates the geeky techy kid who creates a billion dollar startup. Hence the Tesla (see the 'Tesla nod' commercial, which is classic). In fact we celebrate them because they became rich, made it in the 'real world'. Bill Gates, Wozniak and Jobs most notably, first. A previous generation empowered that kind of kid by creating the superhero comic (Captain America: weakling becomes superpatriot; Spiderman: weakling becomes superhuman).

But it's easy to forget how much, in the 60s, 70s and even 80s, a kid who read SF novels and programmed computers was seen as an out of it geek.

Looking at the row about the new Spiderwoman character cover (drawn with the usual gravity defying curves, in a unsavoury pose) the comic industry still hasn't grasped that given the vastness of their female fanbase, they have to stop drawing characters as deprived 16 year old boys would. Half of the fans at these conventions are now women, apparently. Which given the whole dressing up thing, shouldn't surprise one, but it's a big change.

Think The Hunger Games. There's a huge market for empowered young female characters. But the artists need to learn a few things about the laws of gravity and female clothing.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Shakespeare »

Valuethinker wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:When you panned Podkayne I was not surprised you didn't like Friday, which I would not have recommended.

One not on Valuethinker's list is The Door into Summer, which is a fun rather than compelling read.
[Attribution fixed by admin LadyGeek]

I'd put Invasion of the Puppet Masters above that one (but I get Door into Summer and Beyond This Horizon mixed up-- the latter one has Hamilton Felix? DiS turns out to be the only thing by RAH I have never read* (along with some of the short fiction, discovered that out of this discussion).

Lady Geek did not like Double Star, which I found compelling. IotPM is like everything Heinlein did (at least up until the 1960s) - -defined the cliche for others less skilful to follow, or rather made a gripping read out of a cliche. An alien invasion novel, parallels to communist subversion (I am not clear whether Heinlein was warning of same, or riffing on same). And yet it's Heinlein, and I found it a complete page turner, with parts I can almost quote out of memory.

* I didn't read 'Job' and some of the later Lazarus Long stuff.
DiS is definitely better than BTH, which has Hamilton Felix. It is on a par with Red Planet, etc. but not a juvenile.

Without giving away too much of the plot, the central character is an engineer who invents a household robot. The book title comes from his cat, Petronius, who on winter days insists on checking every exit door in the house in case there is one into summer. Since LG is an engineer, and knowing her attitude to 50's attitudes towards women, I felt she would enjoy it. It predates the sexual introduction and loss of writing power.

I would certainly add it to anyone's Heinlein recommended list. But then I would exclude, amongst other things, Stranger (along with everything post MIaHM except possibly Friday, and Glory Road, Sixth Column, and possibly Farnham's Freehold).
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by chaz »

HikerNC wrote:Reading Stuart Woods' "Carnal Curiosity." A Stone Barrington mystery. Good summer reading.

Waiting for the new "Jesse Stone" book coming out in September.
Stuart Woods is one of my favorites.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by LadyGeek »

Shakespeare wrote:Without giving away too much of the plot, the central character is an engineer who invents a household robot. The book title comes from his cat, Petronius, who on winter days insists on checking every exit door in the house in case there is one into summer. Since LG is an engineer, and knowing her attitude to 50's attitudes towards women, I felt she would enjoy it. It predates the sexual introduction and loss of writing power.
OK, I changed my mind. I'll read The Door into Summer next. Then, the Witches of Karres.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by nisiprius »

Well, I finished the short story, Wool, by Hugh Howey. Not sure if I should tackle the novels. Not bad, it passes muster as the kind of science fiction I like--I can easily imagine having read this in the late 1950s. Maybe it's notable for that alone...

...but it has problems. Without giving a spoiler and--is it a spoiler to say this the kind of story that could be spoiled by a spoiler?--the story turns on the idea of a civilization in a sealed environment on an uninhabitable planet whose atmosphere is so corrosive that it eats through space suits in an hour or so. The only view of the outside people have is through video cameras in the wall that have lenses that need to be cleaned periodically, and the only way they can be cleaned is for a criminal, condemned to death, to go outside, clean the lenses, and die.

Oh, really? Nobody can think of any way to put the lenses into some kind of sealed, retractable housing that would allow them to be brought inside for cleaning?
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by chaz »

"The Forgotten" by David Baldacci.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

Shakespeare wrote:
I would certainly add it to anyone's Heinlein recommended list. But then I would exclude, amongst other things, Stranger (along with everything post MIaHM except possibly Friday, and Glory Road, Sixth Column, and possibly Farnham's Freehold).
A good list of stinkers. The irony is something like Number of the Beast had many promising aspects (one section anticipates Steampunk). But it's not worth the time.

Glad someone else shares my dislike of Glory Road. Many, many people did better Sword & Sorcery novels (such as Roger Zelazny, or L Sprague De Camp or Poul Anderson), RAH to me was almost writing one to prove his disdain for the genre.

Farnham's Freehold he was trying to make a point about racism, he made it in a way which is actually quite powerful, inverting the black-white relationship in the future (complete with a twist). But I couldn't finish the thing.

Sixth Column Heinlein himself knew was a stinker. It's an early novel and JW Campbell, whose editorial opinions basically shaped what SF actually got published at that time, had racialistic views (before he fell in love with Scientology). As the novel is about an American revolt against 'Asian' (really Japanese) overlords using superscience, RAH was trapped.

JW Campbell is the reason why Isaac Asimov wrote novels without aliens eg Foundation. As a Russian-born Jew, Asimov was deeply uncomfortable with JWC's notions of racial supremacy.

RAH revisits the theme of an American underground in 2 places: one a short story 'Free Men' (a fragment of a story, really) in 'Expanded Universe'. And the other (superbly in my view) of America under a religious dictatorship 'If This Goes On/ Revolt in 2100'. RAH is at pain to be nice to all existing religions (one scene has Mormons being mown down by Authority troops) so the beliefs of the dictatorship are kind of odd, but the whole feel of the thing is chilling and quite contemporary.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

LadyGeek wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:Without giving away too much of the plot, the central character is an engineer who invents a household robot. The book title comes from his cat, Petronius, who on winter days insists on checking every exit door in the house in case there is one into summer. Since LG is an engineer, and knowing her attitude to 50's attitudes towards women, I felt she would enjoy it. It predates the sexual introduction and loss of writing power.
OK, I changed my mind. I'll read The Door into Summer next. Then, the Witches of Karres.
You need a break from Heinlein. At some point hopefully you will tackle the juveniles, which in many ways have held up the best.

I can recommend Time for the Stars. The Rolling Stones. Citizen of the Galaxy[ /b], Have Spacesuit will Travel. and also (Tunnel in the Sky, Red Planet, Farmer in the Sky, Between Planets, Space Cadet). Each of which is a very good novel. Particularly the first 4.

As before, a Heinlein 'completist' reads Alexei Panshin's Rite of Passage, which stands by itself as being as good as any Heinlein juvenile (with a strong female narrative voice). The other one (was only ever published in hardcover) is Michael Kurland's Princes of Earth. That series never took off, and it's a real pity.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Shakespeare »

Valuethinker wrote:Sixth Column Heinlein himself knew was a stinker. It's an early novel and JW Campbell, whose editorial opinions basically shaped what SF actually got published at that time, had racialistic views (before he fell in love with Scientology). As the novel is about an American revolt against 'Asian' (really Japanese) overlords using superscience, RAH was trapped.
Old novels/short stories need to be read with an appreciation of the views of the time (even if you - and I - don't condone them). In 1941, when SC was written, war with Japan was known to be very likely - certainly amongst knowledgeable US Navy personnel, with whom Heinlein, as an Annapolis grad, probably remained contact. For an appreciation of the views held, you can check out the best English-language submarine novel of the war, Run Silent, Run Deep. (Avoid the movie at all costs; it butchered the book.)

[Additional books listed in Valuethinker's next post]

We can agree to disagree on reading The Rolling Stones. IMO Star Beast is better.

Added much later: if you are going to read Panshin's Rite of Passage, you should also consider Palmer's Emergence.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Ged »

Valuethinker wrote: I don't know if the original episode 'The Cage' is available anywhere.
The Cage is pretty widely available. It's available on Netflix streaming free on Amazon Prime. Be sure to watch the pilot, not the episode made from it.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Ged »

nisiprius wrote:Well, I finished the short story, Wool, by Hugh Howey. Not sure if I should tackle the novels. Not bad, it passes muster as the kind of science fiction I like--I can easily imagine having read this in the late 1950s. Maybe it's notable for that alone...
I've read a few of the novels that were collected into a single volume. The quality is pretty consistent - like you say, not bad but I think after 400 pages or so I'm not in a hurry to read more. There is only so much you can do with that world.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

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Ged wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: I don't know if the original episode 'The Cage' is available anywhere.
The Cage is pretty widely available. It's available on Netflix streaming free on Amazon Prime. Be sure to watch the pilot, not the episode made from it.
Most of it was incorporated into the episode The Menagerie.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by placeholder »

Shakespeare wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Sixth Column Heinlein himself knew was a stinker.
Old novels/short stories need to be read with an appreciation of the views of the time (even if you - and I - don't condone them).
It's actually rather interesting to read both All (Campbell's original) and Sixth Column because there were obviously parts of the former that bothered Heinlein badly.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

placeholder wrote:
Ged wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: I don't know if the original episode 'The Cage' is available anywhere.
The Cage is pretty widely available. It's available on Netflix streaming free on Amazon Prime. Be sure to watch the pilot, not the episode made from it.
Most of it was incorporated into the episode The Menagerie.
Yes, which is why I was careful to distinguish the 2. Taking The Cage, it is a different TV series (and one I would have enjoyed watching). The Menagerie is a (good) ST episode.

Maybe somehow I wish ST: Enterprise had been closer to The Cage. JJ ABrams is taking the series somewhere else, and that works for big budget movies, but not for at TV series (in the same way). We shall see.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

placeholder wrote:
Shakespeare wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Sixth Column Heinlein himself knew was a stinker.
Old novels/short stories need to be read with an appreciation of the views of the time (even if you - and I - don't condone them).
It's actually rather interesting to read both All (Campbell's original) and Sixth Column because there were obviously parts of the former that bothered Heinlein badly.
Thank you. Interesting.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

Shakespeare wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Sixth Column Heinlein himself knew was a stinker. It's an early novel and JW Campbell, whose editorial opinions basically shaped what SF actually got published at that time, had racialistic views (before he fell in love with Scientology). As the novel is about an American revolt against 'Asian' (really Japanese) overlords using superscience, RAH was trapped.
Old novels/short stories need to be read with an appreciation of the views of the time (even if you - and I - don't condone them). In 1941, when SC was written, war with Japan was known to be very likely - certainly amongst knowledgeable US Navy personnel, with whom Heinlein, as an Annapolis grad, probably remained contact. For an appreciation of the views held, you can check out the best English-language submarine novel of the war, Run Silent, Run Deep. (Avoid the movie at all costs; it butchered the book.)
I completely agree. Think Uncle Tom's Cabin which is not above racial stereotypes for all its enormous power and impact at the time. The language used in say, Raymond Chandler, about blacks is not language we would comfortably use today. Race and racial antipathy was definitely part of the Pacific War and its ferocity. On the other hand, Americans fought well besides Chinese and Filipinos, so it isn't the whole story.


Thank you for reference to the Run Silent Run Deep novel, which I don't think I have ever read.


[Additional books listed in Valuethinker's next post]
We can agree to disagree on reading The Rolling Stones. IMO Star Beast is better.
Lady Geek has read The Star Beast -- and liked it. I agree it is probably his best juvenile (although consensus seems to favour 'Have Spacesuit will Travel'). The Rolling Stones I thought was quite amusing, and a 'sequel' to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (in that they share a character).
Added much later: if you are going to read Panshin's Rite of Passage, you should also consider Palmer's Emergence.
Don't know that one, thank you.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Blues »

Just finished "The Unlikely Spy" by Daniel Silva.

Now reading "Paris Trout" by Pete Dexter.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Bungo »

Just finished "Still Life" by Louise Penny, a detective story set in a small village in Quebec. Good local color but the writing is uneven and the story is pretty average.

Now reading "Night Soldiers" by Alan Furst.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

Bungo wrote:Just finished "Still Life" by Louise Penny, a detective story set in a small village in Quebec. Good local color but the writing is uneven and the story is pretty average.

Now reading "Night Soldiers" by Alan Furst.
one of Furst's best. I don't think his later ones are as good as his earliest ones. But I have read them all.

Night Soldiers. The World at Night series. Dark Star. I feel that those are his best. then you get to ones like The Polish Officer. Blood of Victory.

You may find yourself drawn to Eric Ambler, who Furst is inspired by. The early Amblers, written in the 1930s, are very good.

There's a line in Furst, in The World at Night, about a British agent, sent to organize sabotage

'This was a man from the fringes, a hard man. And 1942 was his year'.

Somehow Furst does that better than anyone.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

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Valuethinker wrote:...Lady Geek has read The Star Beast -- and liked it. I agree it is probably his best juvenile (although consensus seems to favour 'Have Spacesuit will Travel'). The Rolling Stones I thought was quite amusing, and a 'sequel' to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (in that they share a character).
Sorry, I did not read The Star Beast. I'll put it on the pile for my next Heinlein excursion. I have one more to go for my current excursion.

BTW, my long run of Heinlein books is because I thought I would be following the timeline (Robert A. Heinlein bibliography) and equated this to a single series of novels. That didn't work out quite as I had planned.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by nisiprius »

LadyGeek wrote:... I thought I would be following the timeline (Robert A. Heinlein bibliography) and equated this to a single series of novels. That didn't work out quite as I had planned...
If, by timeline, you mean the "future history" plan, I don't think Heinlein did himself or his readers any great favor by creating it. Some writers actually are capable of creating a fictional "universe," as Tolkien did, that is worthwhile. I think C. S. Forester's Hornblower series did that, for example, and I remember reading him mentioning his great delight when he wanted to write a Hornblower novel on some theme and discovered that he'd left a year unaccounted for in the series into which the plot idea would fit. But Heinlein isn't one of them. The only really interesting thing to me is the phrase "rigor of colloids." That is, a physics-like science of colloidal chemistry. There was apparently an idea in the air that the secret of life was going to come out of "colloidal chemistry," whatever that is, or was. When I grew up, the concept of "protoplasm" was still respectable.

I think it is really interesting how quaint all that seems. The basic nature of DNA is not explained by "colloidal chemistry."
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

nisiprius wrote:
LadyGeek wrote:... I thought I would be following the timeline (Robert A. Heinlein bibliography) and equated this to a single series of novels. That didn't work out quite as I had planned...
If, by timeline, you mean the "future history" plan, I don't think Heinlein did himself or his readers any great favor by creating it. Some writers actually are capable of creating a fictional "universe," as Tolkien did, that is worthwhile. I think C. S. Forester's Hornblower series did that, for example, and I remember reading him mentioning his great delight when he wanted to write a Hornblower novel on some theme and discovered that he'd left a year unaccounted for in the series into which the plot idea would fit. But Heinlein isn't one of them. The only really interesting thing to me is the phrase "rigor of colloids." That is, a physics-like science of colloidal chemistry. There was apparently an idea in the air that the secret of life was going to come out of "colloidal chemistry," whatever that is, or was. When I grew up, the concept of "protoplasm" was still respectable.

I think it is really interesting how quaint all that seems. The basic nature of DNA is not explained by "colloidal chemistry."
Hmmm....

Heinlein was perhaps not the first 'future history'. Asimov and the Foundation Trilogy may have been first.

But RAH's future history always seemed to me to be well developed? And it spawned a host of others: H Beam Piper, Larry Niven's Known Space, Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League, Jerry Pournelle's Codominium etc. So it is one of those things, I think, that RAH is credited with introducing to Science Fiction.

Hornblower? Yes. But he had the advantage of historical events to hang it on, and a central character and his life. Alexander Kent did the same thing with Captain Richard Bolitho, and then (as Douglas Reeman) did it again with a series about British captains in WW1 and WW2 (from the same family). So it became a stock in trade of nautical naval writers.

Tolkein is unique in creating such a well developed universe complete with its own language. Really the basis of modern Role Playing Games and Multiplayer Online Games. Not to mention 'Star Wars' or 'Star Trek'. Tolkein actually said (paraphrasing) that his goal was to create an English mythos as rich as the Icelandic Sagas.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Valuethinker »

LadyGeek wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:...Lady Geek has read The Star Beast -- and liked it. I agree it is probably his best juvenile (although consensus seems to favour 'Have Spacesuit will Travel'). The Rolling Stones I thought was quite amusing, and a 'sequel' to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (in that they share a character).
Sorry, I did not read The Star Beast. I'll put it on the pile for my next Heinlein excursion. I have one more to go for my current excursion.

BTW, my long run of Heinlein books is because I thought I would be following the timeline (Robert A. Heinlein bibliography) and equated this to a single series of novels. That didn't work out quite as I had planned.
I am not sure from your comment what you thought was the correct sequence or what impelled you to do that-- I had understood it was simply which novels your husband had on the shelf?

Heinlein's future history is all in 'The Past Through Tomorrow'. Some of the late Heinlein novels (by playing with Time Travel) bring parts of that back in in a completely unconvincing attempt to bring it all together.

The grouping around Heinlein by date is because there are distinct differences in style and talent between 'early RAH' - 'middle' - 'late'. As everyone here pretty much has agreed his late novels don't have the quality of the middle ones (that's also true of Asimov and Clarke, I believe). He reached his peak maturity as a writer in his middle novels.

The juveniles stand by themselves and will, I suspect, be what he is best remembered for. That and the 'big 4': Starship Troopers, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Double Star, Stranger in a Strange Land (some would add I Will Fear No Evil). As adult novels they all stand up although I think the latter 2 are inferior.

Starship Troopers is the most politically controversial and still provokes strong arguments to this day. On the one hand it is quite fascistic or militarist, on the other hand it expresses some values Heinlein really held to, which are much more libertarian-- it's not as simple a call as friends and foes sometimes seem to believe*. To the extent that the movie version is a satire. ST also a cracking read.

Without Starship Troopers, you wouldn't have had novels like Ender's Game (whatever you think of Orson Scott Card's beliefs, a very good novel) or Joe Haldeman's The Forever War (which is a Vietnam Vet's answer to the Heinlein's WW2 view of war). Starship Troopers remains however the definitive way to write a space war novel-- at least for a long time afterwards.

I don't know of any Science Fiction author who has portrayed a revolutionary conspiracy as well as RAH did in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

* One has to understand RAH was, first and foremost, an American patriot. Even though he foresaw a decline of the USA into a country he would be repelled by, and in the late 1960s he must have seen that decline first hand. But 'Robert Heinlein was a fascist' is way too neat a simplification.

Enough. If you like Heinlein then I've already put you on to James H Schmitz.

Poul Anderson did some good stuff-- his Nicholas van Rijn/ Polesotechnic League series and its Flandry of Terra sequels. Also some of his fantasy: Three Hearts and Three Lions in particular; Operation Chaos (which is a sequel to Robert Heinlein's 'Waldo and Magic, Inc'). David Brin's The Uplift War series (Startide Rising, The Uplift War in particular).

Larry Niven's Known Space series. It culminates in Ringworld, and it's perfectly possible to read Ringworld *first* and then work backwards through the short stories. But all of the Beowulf Shaefer series within Known Space (Neutron Star is the key short story). World of the Ptaavs.

You already know CJ Cherryh's Merchanter/ Union series (Downbelow Station and sequels, of which Merchanter's Luck and Rimrunners are the best, I think. Pride of Chanur (I thought the 4th one was weak).
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by telemark »

LadyGeek wrote: Friday, by Robert A. Heinlein. I already had it in paperback, so I thought it was worth a try. The opening was interesting, but then he dropped down to the stereotypical female attitudes that I despised in I Will Fear No Evil.
That's the usual pattern for late Heinlein. A rattlingly good start, enough to tempt you into thinking the old Heinlein is back, and then he just loses interest in the story and rambles off into philosophizing. The only late book I can still read is Job, where he takes his attention deficit and turns it into a plot point. Not everyone likes Job, though.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by Ged »

nisiprius wrote:The only really interesting thing to me is the phrase "rigor of colloids." That is, a physics-like science of colloidal chemistry. There was apparently an idea in the air that the secret of life was going to come out of "colloidal chemistry," whatever that is, or was. When I grew up, the concept of "protoplasm" was still respectable.

I think it is really interesting how quaint all that seems. The basic nature of DNA is not explained by "colloidal chemistry."
Part of understanding the secret of life is understanding how the information encoded in DNA gives rise to self-assembling structures like cells. This is part of the field of soft matter physics, a sub-discipline sometimes called active matter physics which arose out of colloid chemistry.

http://www.bss.phy.cam.ac.uk/
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by gkaplan »

I have just begun The Nuremberg Interviews /conducted by Leon Goldensohn ; edited and introduced by Robert Gellately. Goldensohn was an American physician and psychiatrist. In 1943 he joined the U.S. Army and fought in France and then Germany. He became prison psychiatrist at Nuremberg about six weeks into the Nuremberg trials. As a medical doctor, he saw the prisoners nearly every day and kept careful track of their physical problems. As a psychiatrist, he regularly carried out formal and extended interviews with most of the twenty-one prisoners on trial. In addition he interviewed many defense and prosecution witnesses, some of whom had also been significant Nazi officials and who too subsequently would face trial.

This book, which was published in 2004, is an edited and abridged selection of some of Goldsensohn's interviews with nineteen defendants and fourteen witnesses. (Goldensohn intended to convert the transcripts of his interviews into a book but died prematurely at the age of fifty in 1961.)
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by linenfort »

gkaplan wrote:I have just begun The Nuremberg Interviews /conducted by Leon Goldensohn ; edited and introduced by Robert Gellately. Goldensohn was an American physician and psychiatrist.
...
Once upon a time I read Into That Darkness by Gitta Sereny (1983), based on extensive interviews with Franz Stangl, who was in charge of Treblinka. Very interesting.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

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The Moviegoer, Walker Percy
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

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"Twisted" by Jonathan Kellerman.
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Re: What Book Are You Currently Reading? Part V

Post by abuss368 »

I did finish "The E Myth" Accountant. Excellent book for anyone in the profession. I previously read "The E Myth".

Best.
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