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Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
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Curlyq
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Post by Curlyq »

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Last edited by Curlyq on Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rodc
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Post by Rodc »

The only way the Mercedes (BMW, Lexus, whatever) makes sense is if the subtle differences are of significant value to you.

They all have four wheels, a steering wheel, etc. They all can be expected to last 150,000 miles or so without major overhaul. They can all far exceed any rational highway speed. While some might be faster, they all have plenty of get up and go to merge on the highway. All are reasonable comfortable, unless maybe you have a physical problem or special needs.

Some might have subtle handling differences or sound nicer. But against that most with those advantages have higher maintenance costs.

For my money a decent non-luxury model makes the most sense. And it does not even need to be tricked out with a bunch of options. My $21K 2009 Subaru Forester is just fine, thank you very much.

But if someone has the cash, and for whatever reason think a luxury car is worth the extra money, more power to them.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Khanmots
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Post by Khanmots »

As for the $50k+ cars, notice that the article doesn't compare handling, ride quality, or anything about how the cars actually drive. I've driven a sonata (rental). It's a boring car to drive that's horribly non-communicative. Steering is soft with a huge dead zone. Gearing and transmission was funky to make it feel fast off the line, leading to issues on non-paved surfaces. The automatic transmission was utter crap, even in "manual" mode. Taking over a second between shifts and refusing to downshift if it'd put the engine over halfway to redline. (Making mountain driving a pita).

Now, move to the Hyundai Genesis Coupe Track, and you get a lot nicer car to drive (although I have no clue if the automatic is still crap, I've only driven the manual). You're also talking $30k+, and it's not going to give you the combination of both fun to drive AND comfy long-distance cruiser that the $50k+ cars will.

That said, a lot of the price of the $50k+ cars is paid because of the status. Most BMW owners for example don't even know that their car is RWD, they got it because they're keeping up with the Joneses.

Personally I may well move to the $30-35k range for my next car (5ish years out) because for what I want that's what it takes, and I'll get enough entertainment value to make it worth the premium. But $50k? Nope. Not unless I somehow win the uber lottery.
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norookie
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Post by norookie »

Its a lot of marketing costs built into these "luxury" autos. I want an auto that starts all the time. JMO
" Wealth usually leads to excess " Cicero 55 b.c
MWCA
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Post by MWCA »

You pay for the bells and whistles. Which is fine with me if that is what you want. My next vehicle is going to have bells and whistles.
We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm.
Wolkenspiel
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by Wolkenspiel »

Curlyq wrote:Here's an article on the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/trading- ... &GT1=22021

I'm wondering what other Bogleheads think about this.
If the author wants to experience the difference between a $25k Sonata and the $50k Benz, I recommend a nice, long weekend trip on a reasonably empty stretch of German autobahn. At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.

I understand that this is almost entirely irrelevant for the typical US buyer of these cars, but there is a vast difference in the underlying engineering and resulting performance.
richard
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by richard »

Curlyq wrote:the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car
is $25,000.
Stonebr
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Post by Stonebr »

Seats are much better in those expensive European cars. If you don't mind backaches, go ahead and by a Corolla.

I've also been impressed with the safety of some of the European cars. I know, I know. Lots of cheap cars get 5 stars. But when a new safety test comes along -- I mean a new measure -- the Euro cars already pass while the Japanese and Americans have to play catch up. It's a sort of proactive safety mindset that the Swedes and Germans have that the American and Japanese engineers simply don't care about.

Examples: Volvo, BMW, and Saab had side curtain airbags long before they were tested by the government. When rear-end whiplash testing first started, Saab and Volvo already passed with flying colors -- even 3-5 year old Saabs and Volvos. When a consumer group tested air quality in cars -- carcinogens emitted by plastics and glues -- only Volvo passed their test.

When new safety measures come along, the Euro cars often already meet the standards. The Japanese and Americans never do. They are engineering to pass the tests, not for true safety. All in all, if I'm in an accident I'd rather be in my 8 year old Volvo ($19,999) than a new Toyota.
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear
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nukephd
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Post by nukephd »

I drive an Accord and my wife drives a BMW. Her 325 is a great car, but I would have never gotten it if we didn't get a great deal on it used. Driving the 325 is an experience. My wife loves it, but after a while it's not that thrilling anymore. We will be Honda people in the future, but she won't be getting a new car for quite some time. She can get at least 5 more years out of her car. We're simple people.
mac240
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Post by mac240 »

This may be slightly off topic. Dunno. I watched this video as part of my research before buying a Honda Fit Sport 5 speed earlier this year. I'm trying to marry my love of cars with frugal living. I very much think this car hits the mark. The guy in the video was right. The car is very satisfying to drive.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09 ... _fit-video

Now part of me daydreams of taking "European delivery" of a BMW 3 series, in white. They meet you in Germany, put you in a simulator to, from what I understand, teach you how to drive the car at its limits. You see the plant. Have a drink with your personsal guide. The you drive around Europe, use the Autobahn. Go really fast. The car comes back here with the temp. European plates on it, which you can keep.

I think the BMW may be twice as good a car as the Fit and I really want(ed) one. (Think of the engine!)

But the Fit gets me closer to my retirement saving goals (and retirement) more quickly. After much consideration I realized that was the speed I wanted more.
new2bogle
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Post by new2bogle »

I rented a Mazda 3 a month or so ago. The road noise was so loud that I couldn't even hear the radio. Turning the radio up made the speakers cut off.

There is definitely a difference between cheap and not cheap cars.
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by yobria »

Wolkenspiel wrote:If the author wants to experience the difference between a $25k Sonata and the $50k Benz, I recommend a nice, long weekend trip on a reasonably empty stretch of German autobahn. At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
I suspect few readers of that article drive at those speeds.

Nick
FireProof
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Post by FireProof »

Don't forget that the 25K cars tend to be much more reliable, have much cheaper parts, cost much less to insure, and get much better MPG.
bvp
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by bvp »

Curlyq wrote:Here's an article on the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/trading- ... &GT1=22021

I drive a $25,000 car (Subaru) and have been extremely happy with it. It's clearly the best car I've ever owned. Over the years, my parents owned several luxury cars, from Mercedes to Lincolns and, while nice, I haven't been impressed enough to consider moving up to the $50,000 car world.

I'm wondering what other Bogleheads think about this.
I do miss my WRX :(

my next car just might be a WRX wagon - premium gas and mediocre MPG be damned!11
Colorado14
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Post by Colorado14 »

Because I want to participate in the "If you are a millionaire" poll, I've never even owned a $25K car. I do have high housing costs though and will buy my next car after the house is paid off. I understand some people are "into" cars, I'm just not one of them. There's nothing wrong with different strokes for different folks though...
FireProof
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Post by FireProof »

Colorado13 wrote:Because I want to participate in the "If you are a millionaire" poll, I've never even owned a $25K car. I do have high housing costs though and will buy my next car after the house is paid off. I understand some people are "into" cars, I'm just not one of them. There's nothing wrong with different strokes for different folks though...
You can buy a 25K car for 5K, just wait until it's used a few years. That's another thing about them - they depreciate quicker. I prefer to get 15-16K cars for 4-5K.
natureexplorer
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by natureexplorer »

richard wrote:
Curlyq wrote:the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car
is $25,000.
+ increased maintenance costs
+ increased fuel costs
+ increased insurance costs
+ increased depreciation costs
+ more expensive girl friend/wife
Rodc
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Post by Rodc »

At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
Irrelevant to 99.44% of US drivers.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
natureexplorer
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Post by natureexplorer »

Rodc wrote:
At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
Irrelevant to 99.44% of US drivers.
Who are the 0.56%?
Wolkenspiel
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Post by Wolkenspiel »

Rodc wrote:
At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
Irrelevant to 99.44% of US drivers.
which is why the part of my post you omitted read:
I understand that this is almost entirely irrelevant for the typical US buyer of these cars...
oragne lovre
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by oragne lovre »

natureexplorer wrote:
richard wrote:
Curlyq wrote:the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car
is $25,000.
+ increased maintenance costs
+ increased fuel costs
+ increased insurance costs
+ increased depreciation costs
+ more expensive girl friend/wife
Talk about tangible and intangible costs :lol: :lol: :lol:
E-M-H
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Post by E-M-H »

Look, this article was silly. The Mercedes has things that the Hyundai will never have. The Mercedes has years of impressive engineering heritage and the Mercedes is in a different class than the Hyundai, and... OK, I don't fall for that stuff either.
john94549
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Post by john94549 »

I drive a 1994 Buick. It gets me there, and back. I keep it in the garage, mostly, drive it maybe 20 miles/week. Wash it once per year. The air conditioner busted a few years back, so I run my errands in the cool of the morning. The radio antenna no longer retracts, but that's not a big issue. I got a new battery a year ago through AAA.

Life is fine.
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monkey_business
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Post by monkey_business »

The difference between a $25k car and a $50k car is appreciated by those that appreciate cars. If you only care that your car starts and gets you from A to B, then even $25k is overkill.
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HardKnocker
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Post by HardKnocker »

It's like the difference between chuck steak and top sirloin.

Both will fill you up but one is definitely more tender.
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
FireProof
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Post by FireProof »

Let's not be coy here - the fact that you're willing to blow $40,000 in cash is a better signal that you have a lot of cash than blowing $15k.
mortal
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Post by mortal »

What's the difference between a 50k car and a 25k car? About 3 years. :twisted:

I love depreciation.
TRC
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by TRC »

Curlyq wrote:Here's an article on the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/trading- ... &GT1=22021

I drive a $25,000 car (Subaru) and have been extremely happy with it. It's clearly the best car I've ever owned. Over the years, my parents owned several luxury cars, from Mercedes to Lincolns and, while nice, I haven't been impressed enough to consider moving up to the $50,000 car world.

I'm wondering what other Bogleheads think about this.
You should go test drive a BMW 335I and see if you still feel the same way.
Manbaerpig
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Post by Manbaerpig »

I ran the numbers comparing say buying an accord/camry with similar options vs the 09 335i I spec'd/bought new and added the extended warranty and a JB4 chip (bumps HP from underrated 300 factory for the twin turbo 6 to approx 420 or so on 91 octane) and came out with something surprising:

the delta between the accord/camry and a twin-turbo 335i over a ~9 year/120k mile ownership period is not quite $150/mo

I looked at that figure for a bit and was like... hmm

The marginal utility of a 12 second daily driver twin turbo 3 series is worth well more than $150/mo. to me

It would probably be "best" from my personal tolerance for repairs/self-repair to buy 5-7 year old accord/camrys from years ~6 through ~12 or so of the vehicle to keep the costs much lower than comparing with my 'new' example. But that wouldn't be apples to apples now would it. A Bus pass and a skateboard are pretty cheap too..

Sure, somebody's 25 year old eagle talon turbo with a paperclip boost mod is going to be faster in a straight line for $1k total invested, I get it. I've been there, believe me (I have a project car), this is different, a unmolested daily driver with michelin pilots and a chip :)
Last edited by Manbaerpig on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
john94549
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Post by john94549 »

FireProof wrote:Let's not be coy here - the fact that you're willing to blow $40,000 in cash is a better signal that you have a lot of cash than blowing $15k.
Last I checked, I had a lot of cash, and a 1994 Buick. Maybe the reason I HAVE that cash is that I drive a 1994 Buick. Connect the dots?
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ElJay
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Post by ElJay »

But is the Mercedes twice as handsome?
Yes. But then again I don't desire having an E-Class or any Hyundai sitting in my driveway. An S5 or a 335d... now you're talking. :)
mortal
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Post by mortal »

Just watch out for those fuel pumps in the bmw *35's. They're the main reason those cars are getting black marks for reliability.

I'm more of an infiniti fan myself. That VQ v6 just sings. No turbo to mute the vocals...
Rodc
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Post by Rodc »

natureexplorer wrote:
Rodc wrote:
At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
Irrelevant to 99.44% of US drivers.
Who are the 0.56%?
You find them in jail, after they run into the roadblocks set up by the police to stop them. :)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
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Post by Rodc »

Wolkenspiel wrote:
Rodc wrote:
At 130,140mph it will be rather obvious.
Irrelevant to 99.44% of US drivers.
which is why the part of my post you omitted read:
I understand that this is almost entirely irrelevant for the typical US buyer of these cars...
But you felt a need to post it anyway? :)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Rodc
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Post by Rodc »

john94549 wrote:
FireProof wrote:Let's not be coy here - the fact that you're willing to blow $40,000 in cash is a better signal that you have a lot of cash than blowing $15k.
Last I checked, I had a lot of cash, and a 1994 Buick. Maybe the reason I HAVE that cash is that I drive a 1994 Buick. Connect the dots?
Yes, but if you have a need to signal the opposite sex, or a need to preen, a fancy car has more visibility than a bank account. :)

(FWIW: I understand that some people are just into cars, like wine, or cameras, or exotic travel. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
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norookie
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Re: Difference between $25,000 car and $50,000 car

Post by norookie »

oragne lovre wrote:
natureexplorer wrote:
richard wrote:
Curlyq wrote:the difference between a $25,000 car and a $50,000 car
is $25,000.
+ increased maintenance costs
+ increased fuel costs
+ increased insurance costs
+ increased depreciation costs
+ more expensive girl friend/wife
Talk about tangible and intangible costs :lol: :lol: :lol:
I like it too. :lol: Maintenance cost is certainly a added factor amongst the 2 tier auto makers like Honda/Acura- and Toyota/Lexus. :wink:
" Wealth usually leads to excess " Cicero 55 b.c
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Kenkat
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Post by Kenkat »

A $50,000 car is absolutely nicer than a $25,000 car. It's probably not twice as nice though. If you're ok with that and have the cash, nothing wrong with buying a nice ride.
eucalyptus
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Post by eucalyptus »

I buy exotic cars to impress the simple, annoy the green, enable the smug, tweak the envious and I because I like to drive them. Seems to work.
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Post by interplanetjanet »

eucalyptus wrote:I buy exotic cars to impress the simple, annoy the green, enable the smug, tweak the envious and I because I like to drive them. Seems to work.
I grew up with a neighbor who said almost the same thing. He had a Lotus 7 replica and a turbo Esprit...both were a blast to drive as a 17 year old. :)

-janet [though the Esprit's visibility was pretty annoying, but eh, tradeoffs]
Rodc
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Post by Rodc »

interplanetjanet wrote:
eucalyptus wrote:I buy exotic cars to impress the simple, annoy the green, enable the smug, tweak the envious and I because I like to drive them. Seems to work.
I grew up with a neighbor who said almost the same thing. He had a Lotus 7 replica and a turbo Esprit...both were a blast to drive as a 17 year old. :)

-janet [though the Esprit's visibility was pretty annoying, but eh, tradeoffs]
You got to drive a Lotus (replica or not) at 17? Now I'm jealous. Your neighbor's money was well spent if that was the goal.

(I have always thought Lotus made some pretty sweet cars, though alas, I never drove one.)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
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ram
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Post by ram »

Over the years I have owned toyotas, hondas, nissans and a hyundai.
My current cars are toyota avalon and honda odyssey van. I am a boglehead and do not like to spend money unneccesarily. But the noise difference between odyssey and avalon is grossly different at highway speed and worth the cost difference.
When I worked in Saudi Arabia I drove on roads that were absolutely straight for hundreds of kilometers with virtually no traffic and my self imposed speed limit was 150 kmph (94mph). My Nissan used to mildly shake beyond that speed. Mercedes cars used to efforlessly pass me at estimated speeds of 200 kmph (125 mph).
I am considering buying a Hyundai genesis sedan vs a Acura MDX as my next vehicle in 2-3 yrs
Ram
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Post by Dagwood »

E-M-H wrote:Look, this article was silly. The Mercedes has things that the Hyundai will never have. The Mercedes has years of impressive engineering heritage and the Mercedes is in a different class than the Hyundai, and... OK, I don't fall for that stuff either.
Besides the intangibles that others have mentioned that you will notice if you drive a Benz and then a rental Focus, there is also the fact that companies like Mercedes were developing safety technology such as crumple zones and rollover hoops for the frame before other car companies were even thinking about them, nevermind before they were mandated by law. So the question then becomes, if you like cars and have the money, do you want to buy a car from the company that leads on safety before it is required to do so by law, or one that only adds safety equipment once the government of the IIHS goads it into doing so? And what does that relative attitude say -- the car company that builds a car safely because it believes that is how a car should be built versus one that does so because the law requires it to do so -- in terms of the other safety-related aspects of the car that as the layman you cannot really judge? To whom do you give the benefit of the doubt?

I have no issue with folks who want to drive a $15k car (MSRP). But it grows tiresome, and reflects ignorance, to claim that the Yaris is as good a car as an E class Mercedes or 5 series BMW. The Yaris is cheaper certainly, but not better. If you've spent any time behind the wheel of any of these cars, and know anything about cars, you will know such a claim is plainly silly.
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Curlyq
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Post by Curlyq »

.....
Last edited by Curlyq on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fbone
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Post by Fbone »

mortal wrote:Just watch out for those fuel pumps in the bmw *35's. They're the main reason those cars are getting black marks for reliability.

I'm more of an infiniti fan myself. That VQ v6 just sings. No turbo to mute the vocals...
It just so happens I test drove one today. A 2008 G37 asking $19,995.

Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 2006 M35 asking $18,900.
FireProof
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Post by FireProof »

Dagwood wrote:
I have no issue with folks who want to drive a $15k car (MSRP). But it grows tiresome, and reflects ignorance, to claim that the Yaris is as good a car as an E class Mercedes or 5 series BMW. The Yaris is cheaper certainly, but not better. If you've spent any time behind the wheel of any of these cars, and know anything about cars, you will know such a claim is plainly silly.
OK, but you can't really claim those are "better" either. I may not care about things like performance at 160 mpg and logos, and you may not care about things like reliability and efficiency, but clearly both could be part of someone's definition of "better" - breaking down less, lasting longer and requiring less fuel all seem important measures of quality in a machine.

And as long as the Sonata continues to do better than Mercedes in crash tests, I think I'll leave the question of who invented safety to the philosophers and patent lawyers
realitytruthprozac
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Post by realitytruthprozac »

For Bogleheads, the more appropriate article would be to compare buying a used Honda Civic vs. buying a used Ford Focus.
ataloss
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Post by ataloss »

I think I'll leave the question of who invented safety to the philosophers and patent lawyers
:lol:
JimHalpert
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Post by JimHalpert »

the most fun car i ever drove was a used $3,000 mg midget.

although after all the repairs and maintenance it was probably a $25,000 car...
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topper1296
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Post by topper1296 »

Law of diminishing returns would play a huge factor for me between the two
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Post by MWCA »

eucalyptus wrote:I buy exotic cars to impress the simple, annoy the green, enable the smug, tweak the envious and I because I like to drive them. Seems to work.
Yeah people get fired up about it dont they. ;)
We are all worms. But I believe that I am a glow-worm.
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