RIP, Mars Exploration Rover Spirit :(

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Dan Moroboshi
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RIP, Mars Exploration Rover Spirit :(

Post by Dan Moroboshi »

It’s hard to say goodbye to old friends. We’ve known since the springtime that NASA’s Spirit rover, which roamed the surface of Mars for more than six years, was probably doomed to a frozen death. But in the last week, NASA has repeatedly called the rover, hoping that the endurance explorer somehow managed to conserve enough power during the martian winter to respond.

So far, no luck. Spirit has not phoned home.

Spirit’s been on Mars since January 2004 and already survived previous winters, which run from May through November. With sunlight reaching Spirit at a weak angle, the rover hibernates and uses the scant solar power to recharge batteries and heat itself to –40 degrees.

But this winter it could not. With a wheel caught in the loose martian terrain, Spirit could not drive to an opportune position to capture some sunlight. As a result, the rover probably dropped to -67 degrees during the brutal winter on the red planet, too cold for its heaters or machinery to function.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80bea ... -for-good/

RIP, plucky little robot.

I'll pour out a 40 (WD-40, that is) in your honor. *sniff*
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Post by diasurfer »

that's sad. I thought this comic was really poignant when you posted it awhile back Dan M.



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Post by Dan Moroboshi »

diasurfer wrote:that's sad. I thought this comic was really poignant when you posted it awhile back
I did post it, but I believe I saw it posted on this forum first by Alex Frakt.

It was in a thread that I recall vividly, in which Valuethinker mused that robots will likely be considered the children of the human race.

I hope we don't pass on too many of our less desirable traits on to them.
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Post by ryuns »

Good "pour one out" reference.

I guess it's just silly anthropomorphism, but I can't help but feel a little sad reading about this end and re-reading that comic, just as I felt proud reading of the little robot's lifespan many times exceeding what was expected of it. To be honest, I can't put my finger on why that is.

Ryan
An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered. -- GK Chesterton
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Post by jpsfranks »

ryuns wrote:I guess it's just silly anthropomorphism, but I can't help but feel a little sad reading about this end and re-reading that comic, just as I felt proud reading of the little robot's lifespan many times exceeding what was expected of it. To be honest, I can't put my finger on why that is.
It doesn't help that they gave it that WALL-E like head and two eyes. They might as well have given it a wagging tail while they were at it.

I'm not sure if too many tears were shed for this intrepid little guy:
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Post by Valuethinker »

ryuns wrote:Good "pour one out" reference.

I guess it's just silly anthropomorphism, but I can't help but feel a little sad reading about this end and re-reading that comic, just as I felt proud reading of the little robot's lifespan many times exceeding what was expected of it. To be honest, I can't put my finger on why that is.

Ryan
Because you are human.

And humans take pride in their creations. Including their children. Ever seen an engineer with a car he helped design, an airplane, or a nuclear reactor?

This creature was our child. Not quite the first child of the human race, but one of the first (along with Pioneer, Voyager, Galileo etc.).

We do not yet build intelligent children, but this little probe did one of the first things children do-- surprise their parents.
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Post by Valuethinker »

jpsfranks wrote:
ryuns wrote:I guess it's just silly anthropomorphism, but I can't help but feel a little sad reading about this end and re-reading that comic, just as I felt proud reading of the little robot's lifespan many times exceeding what was expected of it. To be honest, I can't put my finger on why that is.
It doesn't help that they gave it that WALL-E like head and two eyes. They might as well have given it a wagging tail while they were at it.

I'm not sure if too many tears were shed for this intrepid little guy:
Image
You can't diss Pixar for making a movie which appeals to a target audience of young children-- something they identify with.

Wall E was profound and touching on many levels-- in some ways it surpassed Disney*. And unconventional: his only living friend is a *cockroach* that he is mortified when he steps on.

The second half was much weaker. But it had one of the most sublime moments in movie history (based apparently on an Astaire-Rogers flick) -- that dance in space between Wall E and EVIE.

* I have no doubt the death of Bambi's mother changed how Americans saw the environment. And Gulliver's Travels is less well known, but surely has had an impact on the bellicosity of society. Contrast the joyous march off to WW1 with the resigned slog off to WW2.
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Post by Valuethinker »

Dan Moroboshi wrote:
diasurfer wrote:that's sad. I thought this comic was really poignant when you posted it awhile back
I did post it, but I believe I saw it posted on this forum first by Alex Frakt.

It was in a thread that I recall vividly, in which Valuethinker mused that robots will likely be considered the children of the human race.

I hope we don't pass on too many of our less desirable traits on to them.
It's a beginning. Those of us who grew up with the moon rockets remember the wonder of that time (anyone remember the Tang orange drink ads?) and Walter Cronkite's stenorian tones.

The next phase of space travel is less glamorous in that sense, but no less important or valuable.

Our child has walked upon another world. There will be, I hope, many children, and many worlds yet to walk upon.

The logical goal of any intelligent race is to expand beyond its planet of birth and to embrace the universe. A journey that began in a Rift Valley in Africa 3 million years ago under the blazing sun, spread first to other continents, and has now spread into space.

Always for the explorers the risks were high. There were many failures: Roanoke Island etc. A hundred abortive explorations and failures. They were no doubt driven by pressures at home, but also, as they waded through thick icy fogs across the Alaska landbridge by that very human desire to see what is beyond the next hill.

Maybe the second goal of any intelligent species is to ensure its immortality in the only way immortality can be ensured: via its children.

We cannot carry Shakespeare, Mozart, Michelangelo to the stars. But our children can.
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Post by Valuethinker »

Dan Moroboshi wrote:
I hope we don't pass on too many of our less desirable traits on to them.
one theoretical possibility is if you build a self replicating machine, it self replicates until it consumes the mass of the universe.

It's a risk. Or see the Star Trek episode 'The Ultimate Weapon' aka Fred Saberhagen's Berserker novels. A war weapon created for a war long since ended, which carries on wrecking havoc. There are strong hints at various points that this is the source of The Alien in those movies: the human military-industrial fascination with recreating the Alien is a tip-off that it was a war machine created for another purpose, in another war, and let loose.

But:

- A robot shall never harm a human being nor through inaction allow a human to come to harm

- A robot shall never allow itself to come to harm except where this comes in conflict with the First Law

- A robot will obey the commands of a human except where this conflicts with the first and second laws
(Isaac Asimov)

We are in morally grey areas (self directing drone aircraft etc.) but we do, as humans, posess the ability to decide this one.
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Post by neverknow »

..
Last edited by neverknow on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by magicmom »

What a sad way to start my day.
Maybe he's still asleep? I know I like to sleep in when it's cold?
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Post by firewynd »

Very sad :(
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Post by Gary »

Do not be sad for Spirit. One day, I don’t know when, man will take his first steps on Mars and one day man will colonize that planet. We will do this because we are human. That is what we do.

Spirit has another destiny. One day he will be picked up, dusted off, and placed in a museum under bright lights in a magnificent glass case. To those colonists of the future, he will be like the “Spirit of St. Louis”, or a piece of the Mayflower, or even the Liberty Bell. Parents will bring their children: “What’s that Mommy?” “Why, that’s Spirit.”

Maybe. Just maybe.

--Gary
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Post by bpp »

On a more upbeat note, how about the inspiring story of Hayabusa?

Now there is a story full of drama, where it looked hopeless for our plucky hero at one point, who nevertheless managed eventually to make it back home. We won't know the conclusion for a few months yet, but Hayabusa may even have managed to bring back a bit of asteroid with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa
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Post by Valuethinker »

Gary wrote:Do not be sad for Spirit. One day, I don’t know when, man will take his first steps on Mars and one day man will colonize that planet. We will do this because we are human. That is what we do.

Spirit has another destiny. One day he will be picked up, dusted off, and placed in a museum under bright lights in a magnificent glass case. To those colonists of the future, he will be like the “Spirit of St. Louis”, or a piece of the Mayflower, or even the Liberty Bell. Parents will bring their children: “What’s that Mommy?” “Why, that’s Spirit.”

Maybe. Just maybe.

--Gary
I don't know if humans will ever colonize space. I am having doubts on this one. The energy cost of moving a human into space, and sustaining her there....

The challenges and times needed for interstellar travel are so great that whilst I believe we could build machines which could explore the universe, by the time they got there we might well have ceased to be-- and I don't think we will go there.

In Charlie Stross's 'Saturns Children' he tackles the mass problem and comes up with some interesting ideas (reengineering dwarves as space travellers, for example). It's his homage to Heinlein (s-x included ;-)).

He also talks about it on his 'antipope' blog-- the energy costs of space travel.

However our creations are already colonizing space. They are not self replicating, they are not self directing, yet... but they are going forth 'where no man has gone before'.

Yes Mars Spirit may some day sit in a museum (or a museum will be built on the site).

But maybe it won't be humans who go to that museum.
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Post by Valuethinker »

bpp wrote:On a more upbeat note, how about the inspiring story of Hayabusa?

Now there is a story full of drama, where it looked hopeless for our plucky hero at one point, who nevertheless managed eventually to make it back home. We won't know the conclusion for a few months yet, but Hayabusa may even have managed to bring back a bit of asteroid with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa
We spend far too little looking at the asteroids and visiting them. I don't know in mass terms, but in terms of objects, they are surely the bulk of the solar system.

It's an omission that could cost us very dearly, in time.
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Post by magicmom »

Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't really think so.
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Re: RIP, Mars Exploration Rover Spirit :(

Post by Valuethinker »

Dan Moroboshi wrote:
It’s hard to say goodbye to old friends. We’ve known since the springtime that NASA’s Spirit rover, which roamed the surface of Mars for more than six years, was probably doomed to a frozen death. But in the last week, NASA has repeatedly called the rover, hoping that the endurance explorer somehow managed to conserve enough power during the martian winter to respond.

So far, no luck. Spirit has not phoned home.

Spirit’s been on Mars since January 2004 and already survived previous winters, which run from May through November. With sunlight reaching Spirit at a weak angle, the rover hibernates and uses the scant solar power to recharge batteries and heat itself to –40 degrees.

But this winter it could not. With a wheel caught in the loose martian terrain, Spirit could not drive to an opportune position to capture some sunlight. As a result, the rover probably dropped to -67 degrees during the brutal winter on the red planet, too cold for its heaters or machinery to function.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80bea ... -for-good/

RIP, plucky little robot.

I'll pour out a 40 (WD-40, that is) in your honor. *sniff*
I am reminded of an article I read about IED disposal robots in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The crews are apparently devastated when 'their' robot gets blown up.

I think humans have an innate desire to befriend smaller and simpler things.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/l/keith-laumer/

The Keith Laumer story 'Field Test' introduces the Bolo, an intelligent, self-aware supertank - prototype unit DNE ('Denny' to its creators).

The punchline of the story has been so heavily leaked that it rather ruins the point, but it's still a very powerful story. Incorporating both Laumer's deep understanding of bureaucracy and his quirky humour about the human race (in the middle of a war). And his ability to personalize the Bolo, to give it human virtues.

The scenes in other stories where the war-battered, radioactive Bolos line up to have medals burned into their armour plate by their human commanders are very touching.

There is also another story (called I think 'Village Idiot') where 'Bobby', a Bolo left over from a war on a jungle planet, is the 'village idiot' who has brain-damaged conversations with the locals and sits in the village square where the kids play on him and the town drunks harangue him-- like some brain damaged war veteran, and an arms inspector is sent, 30 years later, to deactivate him.

But Bobby, or should I say Unit BBY177 of the Dynachrome Brigade, has one last order yet to fulfill....
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Post by Valuethinker »

magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't really think so.


"We are all subject to the fates. But we must all act as if we are not, or die of despair...death will sweep through all the worlds; it will be the triumph of despair, forever. The universes will all become nothing more than interlocking machines, blind and empty of thought, feeling, life..."
— Philip Pullman (The Golden Compass aka Northern Lights)

"'And we'll do it,' she said.
She turned away. Behind them lay pain and death and fear; ahead of them lay doubt, and danger, and fathomless mysteries. But they weren't alone.
So Lyra and her dæmon turned away from the world they were born in, and looked toward the sun, and walked into the sky."
You know, a friend of my father's survived Teretsin and Auschwitz. The Nazis sent him there as a 10 year old boy. He is the only member of his family, of Czech Jews, to survive. He has 6 grandchildren, now. I am always struck by the optimism and humour with which he greets every day in life-- for him, having survived that, each day that God grants him on this Earth is a gift.

We may be doomed, but we have to argue, and fight, and strive, not to be doomed. As Churchill said 'we all have to do our bit'.

The darkest shadow that ever came over civilization was the rise of Naziism in the 1930s, and what it did to the world in the 1940s.

If our grandparents had given up then, it would have been over-- the 1000 year night would have consumed the western world. Read Philip K Dick's 'Man in a High Castle' for a looksee of a world under Nazi rule (or Len Deighton's SS GB for the British version of that).

And then there was the constant threat of nuclear war. The world lurched to the edge of nuclear catastrophe at least twice: in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and again in the autumn of 1983. In each case, it was headed off by the good sense of a few men who avoided responding to apparent provocation. In that latter case, a Russian colonel named Petrov was in the control room when his computers signalled an American attack, which the Kremlin was expecting. He refused to believe the evidence in front of him, and informed his superiors that there was simply a technical problem with the radars (which there was). That colonel did his duty and saved the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

But our grandparents, and our parents, did not give up neither in the face of Hitler nor in the face of nuclear holocaust. They did what they needed to do, both as individuals, but also in terms of their choices of political leaders and their acceptance of difficult measures (yes including sacrifices and precautionary measures) to make a better world for us.

They did their duty to future generations.

We too will have to make sacrifices, to do our duty for future generations.
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Post by bpp »

Valuethinker wrote:
bpp wrote:On a more upbeat note, how about the inspiring story of Hayabusa?
We spend far too little looking at the asteroids and visiting them. I don't know in mass terms, but in terms of objects, they are surely the bulk of the solar system.

It's an omission that could cost us very dearly, in time.
Sure. I was thinking more of the "human interest" angle, though. I guess it wasn't followed much outside of Japan (no real reason for it to be, I suppose), but The Perils of Hayabusa were quite the newstime drama around the time of contact with the asteroid. Almost Apollo-13-type stuff, even if it was "merely" a robot's fate that hung in the balance. (And before contact, there were the lead-in stories on how certain machinists and engineers had been dragged out of retirement to make some particular doohickey for the project with their bare-hand skills that nobody else knows how to make anymore... an inspiration to younger generations, one hopes.) After contact, it was reported for a while that all hope was lost -- the original planned route back to earth being out of the question due to fuel depletion, among other problems...

And now the feared-lost child has finally made it home, after a multi-year detour. In fact it is on tour now, a national hero of sorts. Anthropomorphically throat-catching stuff.
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Post by Dan Moroboshi »

magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't really think so.
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Post by SP-diceman »

magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't really think so.
Well remember, it happened to the dinosaurs and we came along.
So because were gone doesnt mean its over.


Thanks
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Post by Valuethinker »

Dan Moroboshi wrote:
magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't really think so.
Somehow I am not surprised you can cite Pogo ;-).

'We have met the enemy, and he is us'.
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Post by jpsfranks »

magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
Who knows, maybe one day "Sp'rit" will return at the center of a giant energy cloud and eradicate Earth while searching for its creator.
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Post by magicmom »

jpsfranks wrote:
magicmom wrote:Sadly I have to agree with you. As big a fan of Star Trek that I may be. I think the human race is bound for extinction and will never reach the final frontier.
Who knows, maybe one day "Sp'rit" will return at the center of a giant energy cloud and eradicate Earth while searching for its creator.
No I think that was V'ger :lol:
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Post by woof755 »

A little update. Though Spirit is still stuck, it appears Opportunity is still casting a big shadow on Mars.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
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Post by FredPeterson »

Valuethinker wrote:I don't know if humans will ever colonize space. I am having doubts on this one. The energy cost of moving a human into space, and sustaining her there....

The challenges and times needed for interstellar travel are so great that whilst I believe we could build machines which could explore the universe, by the time they got there we might well have ceased to be-- and I don't think we will go there.
The idea the Dow could actually go to 100k is nonsense yet most people here will say its a given, on pure faith the markets will keep working that way. Heck we went from 1k to 10k "relatively" quickly, why can't it go from 10k to 100k? Its the same percent change so whats the difference? Whole 'nother discussion for a different thread of course.

Well, I work on pure faith that todays technology and costs make it prohibitive to colonize and travel through space, but it will indeed happen and the beginnings of it will be in my lifetime. Just sucks I won't get to experience it! 100 years ago the idea of going into outer space was inconceivable, let alone going to the Moon.
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Post by Valuethinker »

FredPeterson wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:I don't know if humans will ever colonize space. I am having doubts on this one. The energy cost of moving a human into space, and sustaining her there....

The challenges and times needed for interstellar travel are so great that whilst I believe we could build machines which could explore the universe, by the time they got there we might well have ceased to be-- and I don't think we will go there.
The idea the Dow could actually go to 100k is nonsense yet most people here will say its a given, on pure faith the markets will keep working that way. Heck we went from 1k to 10k "relatively" quickly, why can't it go from 10k to 100k? Its the same percent change so whats the difference? Whole 'nother discussion for a different thread of course.
Assuming continuation of market capitalism, US stock indices etc. etc. then the Dow will reach 100,000. When is an open question.

But we shouldn't use that as an analogy to reason about humans in space.
Well, I work on pure faith that todays technology and costs make it prohibitive to colonize and travel through space, but it will indeed happen and the beginnings of it will be in my lifetime. Just sucks I won't get to experience it! 100 years ago the idea of going into outer space was inconceivable, let alone going to the Moon.
Barring a breakthrough in physics (always possible) then we know how much energy we need to put a kg into orbit. And it's big.

A sky elevator/ Skyhook approach would make it far more affordable. So if we could crack that problem.

Now we may scale our energy production by the order of magnitude necessary to put really big mass into orbit say by linear catapults (nuclear fusion? really efficient solar and battery storage?) or perhaps by being clever (spaceplanes?).

That gets us to orbit. From there, to the Solar System is doable.

On the other hand, given the sophistication of our cybernetic helpmates by that time, we may just not want to. We could do the exploration thing by Virtual Reality.

Interstellar space? Again, given the energy requirements and the time requirements, we might just not get there. Unless we find new physics which lets us do it. You are talking really big launch lasers (which, as Larry Niven pointed out again and again, would become serious weapons of war). Even a fusion powered drive might not do it (unless the Dyson scoop works).

In his novel Saturday's Children (a homage to Heinlein, but also therefore something of a satire of Heinlein) Charlie Stross plays with this (smaller robots are used for interstellar exploration because of the enormous cost of even moving a small mass to the outer Solar System). See also his blog (antipope) where he goes through the mathematics of moving masses only as far as the Ourt Cloud(s?).
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Post by Valuethinker »

woof755 wrote:A little update. Though Spirit is still stuck, it appears Opportunity is still casting a big shadow on Mars.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
What a beautiful picture.

Our creation sees its own shadow.

Thank you.
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Post by JMacDonald »

Valuethinker wrote:
woof755 wrote:A little update. Though Spirit is still stuck, it appears Opportunity is still casting a big shadow on Mars.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
What a beautiful picture.

Our creation sees its own shadow.

Thank you.
Hi,
That website has many great pictures. I use it as my home page so I can see a new picture everyday.
Best Wishes, | Joe
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Post by MarginOfBuffett »

The idea the Dow could actually go to 100k is nonsense yet most people here will say its a given, on pure faith the markets will keep working that way. Heck we went from 1k to 10k "relatively" quickly, why can't it go from 10k to 100k? Its the same percent change so whats the difference? Whole 'nother discussion for a different thread of course.
The growth of civilizations probably follow a logarithmic curve. That's why it's harder for the Dow to go from 10k to 100k than 1k to 10k.
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Post by Minot »

FredPeterson wrote: 100 years ago the idea of going into outer space was inconceivable, let alone going to the Moon.
Not quite true. Check out this 1902 film. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JDaOOw0MEE
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Post by Valuethinker »

MarginOfBuffett wrote:
The idea the Dow could actually go to 100k is nonsense yet most people here will say its a given, on pure faith the markets will keep working that way. Heck we went from 1k to 10k "relatively" quickly, why can't it go from 10k to 100k? Its the same percent change so whats the difference? Whole 'nother discussion for a different thread of course.
The growth of civilizations probably follow a logarithmic curve. That's why it's harder for the Dow to go from 10k to 100k than 1k to 10k.
Good point. Or an S curve (same thing, I think, basically).
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Post by FredPeterson »

Minot wrote:
FredPeterson wrote: 100 years ago the idea of going into outer space was inconceivable, let alone going to the Moon.
Not quite true. Check out this 1902 film. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JDaOOw0MEE
Okay, perhaps not the idea :) but the notion it would actually happen.
Valuethinker wrote:Now we may scale our energy production by the order of magnitude necessary to put really big mass into orbit say by linear catapults (nuclear fusion? really efficient solar and battery storage?) or perhaps by being clever (spaceplanes?).
This. I think folks who discount the idea don't give this enough credit. While "warp drives" may never be a reality, I firmly believe that there will come a time when nearly instantaneous bursts of extraordinary power will be possible (controlled that is) and while that would be a Very Bad Thing on earth, putting it to use in outer space would be perfect. How we get INTO space from the planet is somewhat irrelevant. Its the traveling of extraordinary distances that needs to be overcome.
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Post by NAVigator »

Extraordinary power bursts aren't necessary to travel great distances. The accelerations from that would stress a mass too greatly. A small but steady acceleration being applied to even a massive object would be more effective.

It would be like compounding interest. Soon the speed resulting from the constant acceleration would be enormous.

Solar Sail Propulsion

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Post by Valuethinker »

FredPeterson wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Now we may scale our energy production by the order of magnitude necessary to put really big mass into orbit say by linear catapults (nuclear fusion? really efficient solar and battery storage?) or perhaps by being clever (spaceplanes?).
This. I think folks who discount the idea don't give this enough credit. While "warp drives" may never be a reality, I firmly believe that there will come a time when nearly instantaneous bursts of extraordinary power will be possible (controlled that is) and while that would be a Very Bad Thing on earth, putting it to use in outer space would be perfect. How we get INTO space from the planet is somewhat irrelevant. Its the traveling of extraordinary distances that needs to be overcome.
Not if we need to lift significant mass. We are in a very deep gravity well.
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Post by Valuethinker »

NAVigator wrote:Extraordinary power bursts aren't necessary to travel great distances. The accelerations from that would stress a mass too greatly. A small but steady acceleration being applied to even a massive object would be more effective.

It would be like compounding interest. Soon the speed resulting from the constant acceleration would be enormous.

Solar Sail Propulsion

Jerry
If they can be made to work.
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Post by NAVigator »

"I was born with nothing and I have most of it left."
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Post by Valuethinker »

NAVigator wrote:Japanese solar sail successfully rides a sunbeam

It's been done.

Jerry
Jerry

I guess the bigger questions emerge: the size (and mass) of that sail which you have to fabricate, the efficacy of that sail in the outer solar system. Impact of interplanetary dust, etc.

I haven't seen the calculations, but I am assuming very big numbers. Scaling the technology up would be a huge task (not insurmountable, *if* the physics/ materials work-- that's the part I don't know).

I don't see how one would work in interstellar space, without laser assistance?
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Post by JMacDonald »

Hi,
The Planetary Society is involved in the solar sailing project: http://www.planetary.org/programs/proje ... ightSail-1 -- the first of The Planetary Society's three spacecraft --will demonstrate that sunlight alone can propel a spacecraft in Earth orbit.[/quote]
Best Wishes, | Joe
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Post by VictoriaF »

Valuethinker wrote:
NAVigator wrote:Japanese solar sail successfully rides a sunbeam

It's been done.

Jerry
Jerry

I guess the bigger questions emerge: the size (and mass) of that sail which you have to fabricate, the efficacy of that sail in the outer solar system. Impact of interplanetary dust, etc.

I haven't seen the calculations, but I am assuming very big numbers. Scaling the technology up would be a huge task (not insurmountable, *if* the physics/ materials work-- that's the part I don't know).

I don't see how one would work in interstellar space, without laser assistance?
We can ask interplanetjanet :-)

Victoria
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Post by stratton »

VictoriaF wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:
NAVigator wrote:Japanese solar sail successfully rides a sunbeam

It's been done.

Jerry
Jerry

I guess the bigger questions emerge: the size (and mass) of that sail which you have to fabricate, the efficacy of that sail in the outer solar system. Impact of interplanetary dust, etc.

I haven't seen the calculations, but I am assuming very big numbers. Scaling the technology up would be a huge task (not insurmountable, *if* the physics/ materials work-- that's the part I don't know).

I don't see how one would work in interstellar space, without laser assistance?
We can ask interplanetjanet :-)
Taylor is a sailor; ask him.

Paul
...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end.
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Post by staythecourse »

I think I have to stop watching so many Liftetime movies with my wife, because this sounds so sad! :D

Good luck.
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Wind ?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Hi Paul:
Taylor is a sailor; ask him.


The earth-bound sails I use require wind. There is no wind in outer space.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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Post by JMacDonald »

Hi,
Last Panorama of the Spirit Rover on Mars: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
Best Wishes, | Joe
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Post by NAVigator »

JMacDonald wrote:Last Panorama of the Spirit Rover on Mars: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
Stunning view. From a robot vehicle designed with a primary mission of 90 Mars days, or "sols" (equivalent to 92 Earth days) which lasted 2175 sols. Amazing. Opportunity continues its mission on the other side of the planet. Thank you, NASA and Spirit.

Jerry
"I was born with nothing and I have most of it left."
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Post by beyou »

“It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” ― Yogi Berra
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Ion propulsion

Post by ol_pops »

Valuethinker wrote:
FredPeterson wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:Now we may scale our energy production by the order of magnitude necessary to put really big mass into orbit say by linear catapults (nuclear fusion? really efficient solar and battery storage?) or perhaps by being clever (spaceplanes?).
This. I think folks who discount the idea don't give this enough credit. While "warp drives" may never be a reality, I firmly believe that there will come a time when nearly instantaneous bursts of extraordinary power will be possible (controlled that is) and while that would be a Very Bad Thing on earth, putting it to use in outer space would be perfect. How we get INTO space from the planet is somewhat irrelevant. Its the traveling of extraordinary distances that needs to be overcome.
Not if we need to lift significant mass. We are in a very deep gravity well.
Ion propulsion
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003049/
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Post by VictoriaF »

Curiosity is a wonderful name.
Clara Ma wrote:Curiosity is an everlasting flame that burns in everyone's mind. It makes me get out of bed in the morning and wonder what surprises life will throw at me that day. Curiosity is such a powerful force. Without it, we wouldn't be who we are today. When I was younger, I wondered, 'Why is the sky blue?', 'Why do the stars twinkle?', 'Why am I me?', and I still do. I had so many questions, and America is the place where I want to find my answers. Curiosity is the passion that drives us through our everyday lives. We have become explorers and scientists with our need to ask questions and to wonder. Sure, there are many risks and dangers, but despite that, we still continue to wonder and dream and create and hope. We have discovered so much about the world, but still so little. We will never know everything there is to know, but with our burning curiosity, we have learned so much.
Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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