Fuel injector cleaning
Fuel injector cleaning
Every so often, my mechanic suggests fuel injector cleaning. I thought that modern gasoline keeps things pretty clean, but I'm no expert. Is this service worthwhile, or is it just one of those moneymakers for mechanics that doesn't really do anything for your car?
-
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:12 pm
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Gas itself have additives so you dont need one. However if you still want to use, go to costco and buy chevron fuel system cleaner 6 pack with offers will be around 14 bucks and you can throw on your last gas tank fill before oil change. There are many time where you can get buy1 and get 1 offers if you dont have costco memebership. Some of the brands I used in the past but not anymore are chevron techron and redline....
Allocation : 80/20 (90% TSM, 10% on ARKK,XBI,XLK/individual stocks and 20% TBM) |
|
Need to learn fishing sooner
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I believe Techron is a component of the Chevron fuel system cleaner. Techron is a brand name of Chevron.core4portfolio wrote:Gas itself have additives so you dont need one. However if you still want to use, go to costco and buy chevron fuel system cleaner 6 pack with offers will be around 14 bucks and you can throw on your last gas tank fill before oil change. There are many time where you can get buy1 and get 1 offers if you dont have costco memebership. Some of the brands I used in the past but not anymore are chevron techron and redline....
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
-
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:12 pm
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Yes.. you are correct about the namingsGrt2bOutdoors wrote:I believe Techron is a component of the Chevron fuel system cleaner. Techron is a brand name of Chevron.core4portfolio wrote:Gas itself have additives so you dont need one. However if you still want to use, go to costco and buy chevron fuel system cleaner 6 pack with offers will be around 14 bucks and you can throw on your last gas tank fill before oil change. There are many time where you can get buy1 and get 1 offers if you dont have costco memebership. Some of the brands I used in the past but not anymore are chevron techron and redline....
Allocation : 80/20 (90% TSM, 10% on ARKK,XBI,XLK/individual stocks and 20% TBM) |
|
Need to learn fishing sooner
- jimb_fromATL
- Posts: 2278
- Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:00 am
- Location: Atlanta area & Piedmont Triad NC and Interstate 85 in between.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I'm a big fan of Chevron Techron. It's the nearest thing to a miracle cure or "magic pill" I've ever seen that really works as advertised. However, my experience many times over many, many years has been that using fresh Chevron high-test gas from a high-volume dealer works better than using the Techron additive in regular gas.
One problem appears to be that the volatile additives evaporate apparently through the plastic containers on the shelf. If you go to a number of auto supply stores where there may not be a big turnover, you'll find that a lot of the older bottles of fuel additives do not contain as much liquid, even though they are still sealed. Another probable reason is that the burn characteristics of high-test may help in clearing out deposits in the combustion chambers and on the valves better than regular gas. Whatever the reason, it works.
Here's an old post of mine from another forum discussing more about why I am a big fan of Chevron Techron.
jimb
One problem appears to be that the volatile additives evaporate apparently through the plastic containers on the shelf. If you go to a number of auto supply stores where there may not be a big turnover, you'll find that a lot of the older bottles of fuel additives do not contain as much liquid, even though they are still sealed. Another probable reason is that the burn characteristics of high-test may help in clearing out deposits in the combustion chambers and on the valves better than regular gas. Whatever the reason, it works.
Here's an old post of mine from another forum discussing more about why I am a big fan of Chevron Techron.
My answer:Somebody asked:
Sometimes, usually when it's cold, my Camry hesitates a little when I start to back it out of the garage. Is that related to what you're asking about? (Seems like "bad timing".. )
It's more likely something other than timing that is causing it to hesitate. Judging by the low miles for the age, I'd suspect that it might be a build up of varnish, sludge, and carbon in the fuel intake, valves, spark plugs or fuel injectors -- especially if it's not giving you a check engine light.
I've had that happen with vehicles that sat for days at a time and were used only for relatively short hops. It will often improve it to take it out for a trip of an hour or more at highway cruising speed so it really warms up to operating temperature and stays that way for a long time.
Once it's plenty warmed up, drive it hard and fast --within the limits of the law-- with heavy acceleration where it's safe to do it. Especially if you usually drive slowly in traffic, running more fuel through it and getting it really hot for a long time can clean out deposits in the fuel and air intake and exhaust systems that may be causing it not to run as well as normal. (That's what people mean about "blowing out the pipes".)
We roll a new car into the family fleet occasionally, but keep the older ones for many years. In literally decades of experience, one thing that has come as close to a miracle cure as I've ever seen is to run a tankful or two of Chevron Supreme high test gas, which contains their "techron" additive.
In fact I know some very competent mechanics at a shop where one specialty is tune-ups and repairs for cars that fail Atlanta's tough emissions tests. On cars that are a few years old that have minor hesitation problems or fail to pass the emissions test but have no obvious defects, they often prescribe that the owner run a couple of tanks of Chevron/techron through it for a few long trips before spending any money on repairs.
It often fixes the problems of gummed up injectors, valves, and other parts of the engines innnards so the vehicle will pass the emissions test. (It also speaks volumes about their honesty in suggesting a simple cure instead of doing unnecessary repairs.)
It has worked numerous times for me on our older cars and trucks, and on newer vehicles that are not driven a lot too.
It did miracles on my wife's '88 Sable... which we had for 15 years with only 90K total miles. In other words, very low mileage for its age -- like yours. Every few years it would start to hesitate when it was cranked up cold and backed out of the garage. Several different times, a couple of tanks of Chevron w/techron and a few hours drive fixed it.
My full-size GM passenger van (with a 4-barrel carburetor) which I had for 18 years and did not drive every day-- or even every week in its later years -- would start hesitating and spark knocking on regular gas every few years. A dose of a couple of tanks of Chevron Supreme would clean it out and make it get better gas mileage, and make it run on regular again too.
It did miracles for a 22 year old car -- a V8 Pontiac-- which I inherited back in 2000. This was a sedan I originally special-ordered with a lot of handling and performance options in '78. We drove it for two years. Then my mom drove it 50K miles from 1980 to 1999, and it still only had 70K miles when I got it back. So it was literally the proverbial car driven by a little old lady to shopping and church. I don't think it went more than 10 miles on a single trip for 20 years. A couple of tanks of Chevron Supreme and a new set of spark plugs made it pass the tough Atlanta emissions test. Drove it on many 350 mile trips from Ga to NC for two more years after that ... performing as well and getting gas mileage as good as it did when new.
I'd highly recommend you give Chevron a try sometime when you will be driving your car for several hours at highway speeds. I'd pick a gas station that appears to sell a lot of gas, to insure that the gas is freshest so the solvent additives haven't evaporated too much.
jimb
Last edited by jimb_fromATL on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
No need, generally speaking, as ethanol in the gas is already a very powerful cleaner, believe it or not. Unless the car sits for extended periods of time the fuel will not gum up the injectors. Cleaners only remove gums in the system, not anything that would be dirt clogging an injector orifice.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
"2004-and-newer vehicles are less likely to need fuel injectors cleaning as often, because newer designs and today’s better fuel additives reduce fouling. "
Link to above
http://tomdwyer.com/2014/uncategorized/ ... injectors/
Link to above
http://tomdwyer.com/2014/uncategorized/ ... injectors/
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I pour techron in fuel tank every 5 - 10k miles. My cars are at 230k and 350k miles right now. Not sure if any of it helps but I do follow advice.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
A total, complete waste of money.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Another anecdote and opinion. I buy the cheapest gas available at the cheapest stations. I don't do fuel injector cleans. I used to pour additives every once in a while but stopped doing that as I noticed no discernible difference before or after. I drive my vehicles up to 200k miles before moving to the next. Usually the engine is fine but some other component such as suspension fails when I sell.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
What two cars are those? Just curious.wander wrote:I pour techron in fuel tank every 5 - 10k miles. My cars are at 230k and 350k miles right now. Not sure if any of it helps but I do follow advice.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Definitely never pay for an "injector cleaning" at a dealership or quickie-lube - that is pure profit for them.
If you think your car is stumbling, run a bottle of Techron (not the cheaper ProGuard) or Gumout Regane/all in one (same active ingredient as Techron) once or twice a year.
I can't say I've ever noticed a difference using them, so I chalk it up as "preventative". Had cars with 300k+ miles. No injector issues, regardless of use of these type of products. I track every tank of gas for mpg and never noticed a difference in mpg either.
OP - they were trying to make additional money off you. That's all. If you think its warranted, spend $6 on a bottle of it at WalMart, put it in your next tank when filling up.
If you think your car is stumbling, run a bottle of Techron (not the cheaper ProGuard) or Gumout Regane/all in one (same active ingredient as Techron) once or twice a year.
I can't say I've ever noticed a difference using them, so I chalk it up as "preventative". Had cars with 300k+ miles. No injector issues, regardless of use of these type of products. I track every tank of gas for mpg and never noticed a difference in mpg either.
OP - they were trying to make additional money off you. That's all. If you think its warranted, spend $6 on a bottle of it at WalMart, put it in your next tank when filling up.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I just called Chevron corporate because I could not find any Chevron stations listed for Tennessee. Was told there are no Chevron nor Texaco stations in and north of Tennessee. Also was told that the same additive is used in Texaco gasoline as is used in Chevron (i.e., Techron)
Tom D.
-
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:55 pm
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Find another mechanic! My mechanic will not even do that service when I ask him. He tells me it does nothing. I have no idea why he even has that machine.
That service is great for your mechanics bottom line.
That service is great for your mechanics bottom line.
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Chevron owns Texaco. You can go on the Chevron retail weblink via the corporate site, input your zip code and it will tell you if they have stations in your neck of the woods. As far as I know, I don't think they are on the other side of the Mississippi river, but I could be wrong.tomd37 wrote:I just called Chevron corporate because I could not find any Chevron stations listed for Tennessee. Was told there are no Chevron nor Texaco stations in and north of Tennessee. Also was told that the same additive is used in Texaco gasoline as is used in Chevron (i.e., Techron)
Really, any Top Tier gasoline would be sufficient to keep fuel injectors and intake valves clean - here is the link for Top Tier distributors:
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers/
It's usually the individual gas stations or independents like "Pete's Gas" where you have to think about whether they a)keep the fuel tank filters clean and changed regularly and b) are selling fresh, quality gasoline with the necessary detergents and c) aren't shortchanging you on octane.
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
-
- Posts: 2219
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:34 am
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Techron won't hurt, may help
Otherwise try to use Tier 1 gas http://www.toptiergas.com/ and you will be set.
Otherwise try to use Tier 1 gas http://www.toptiergas.com/ and you will be set.
"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." H.G. Wells
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
All -- thanks for the replies! I've never had the injection cleaning done. As I said, my gut told me "this is a waste of money". I just wanted to confirm, since there are some maintenance procedures which we often shrug off but are actually worthwhile.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Late to the party here... this is stuff I know sumthin' (hint hint my "screen name ID...LOL)
1) Use "Top Tier Fuel" should not have fuel injector problems on almost any normal vehicle. http://www.toptiergas.com/
2) Don't pay for fuel injection cleaning, my employer a sold kit for competitive reasons at one time, but it's mostly kabuki theater; use a good PEA (polyether amine) fuel additive in the tank and just drive it through.
Always buy brand name premium Fuel System Cleaner. The active stuff is diluted with kerosene or Stoddard solvent, the active ingredients is very expensive, non-brands may cheat. I trust Chevron, Pennzoil (Shell), Valvoline, OEM stuff (BMW, Mopar, GM etc --- most of which looks suspiciously like a Tecron bottle) FWIW BG44K is excellent, but overpriced, and I'm not a fan of their selling tactics from mechanics...
2) In general most remaining on-road vehicles today are less sensitive to gasoline quality, because OEMs hate warranty work...
4) Gasoline is fungible in the pipeline, significant differentiation is made at the terminal from additive system used, and the political theatre of ethanol additization (modern computer control FI engines combust at stoichiometric(precisely) and clean the slop up nearly perfect with a catalyst system --- EtOh helps carbureted non-Cat ones a bit...who the heck has a carb??)
I do not know the current economics, but back in the day good additives can add ~1 cpg in cost... That's *huge* in a business where the margins are razor thin at wholesale from the midstreamers, through rack to jobber delivered wholesale... Consumers being cheap and ignorant, plus many vehicles are not that sensitive, want the cheapest gas a Retailer can get e.g. poor additive...
5) The government did mandate a minimum additive, but it's a pathetic standard and was done half-buttocks IMHO as a Chemical Engineer and former industry insider.
6) Post about automotive maintenance (Including this topic in other places) are often erroneous, with what would appear to be know-it-all personalities. Gotta love the internet... RTFM do what the ENGINEERS wrote...NOT DEALER "SERVICE ADVISORS" , not most (well-meaning) private mechanics (thought I'd at least listen to an independent brand-specialist shop carefully, or consider non-listed items on very high milage cars).
---HISTORY---
The active ingredient in Techron Concentrate is engineered and manufactured by Chevron. Chevron(Standard Oil of California) that originally invented, made, and patented PEA (polyether amine) fuel additive technology in the 80's. There are some decent competitors today...Shell has a wholesale chemical called "Vektron" for example.
In short, Techron Concentrate is the "original", and still unbeatable fuel system treatment.
Automakers use Chevron gasoline with Techron for EPA testing, even though they do not market gasolines in the Midwest (they used to at least haul from Louisville KY).
Chevron Oronite Chemical Division sells very good PEA fuel system additives (not Techron Concentrate, though) to many well-known customers both as aftermarket chemicals, and for use in bulk gasolines. Typically these customers package and market these chemicals, or use them in bulk gasoline.
1) Use "Top Tier Fuel" should not have fuel injector problems on almost any normal vehicle. http://www.toptiergas.com/
2) Don't pay for fuel injection cleaning, my employer a sold kit for competitive reasons at one time, but it's mostly kabuki theater; use a good PEA (polyether amine) fuel additive in the tank and just drive it through.
Always buy brand name premium Fuel System Cleaner. The active stuff is diluted with kerosene or Stoddard solvent, the active ingredients is very expensive, non-brands may cheat. I trust Chevron, Pennzoil (Shell), Valvoline, OEM stuff (BMW, Mopar, GM etc --- most of which looks suspiciously like a Tecron bottle) FWIW BG44K is excellent, but overpriced, and I'm not a fan of their selling tactics from mechanics...
2) In general most remaining on-road vehicles today are less sensitive to gasoline quality, because OEMs hate warranty work...
4) Gasoline is fungible in the pipeline, significant differentiation is made at the terminal from additive system used, and the political theatre of ethanol additization (modern computer control FI engines combust at stoichiometric(precisely) and clean the slop up nearly perfect with a catalyst system --- EtOh helps carbureted non-Cat ones a bit...who the heck has a carb??)
I do not know the current economics, but back in the day good additives can add ~1 cpg in cost... That's *huge* in a business where the margins are razor thin at wholesale from the midstreamers, through rack to jobber delivered wholesale... Consumers being cheap and ignorant, plus many vehicles are not that sensitive, want the cheapest gas a Retailer can get e.g. poor additive...
5) The government did mandate a minimum additive, but it's a pathetic standard and was done half-buttocks IMHO as a Chemical Engineer and former industry insider.
6) Post about automotive maintenance (Including this topic in other places) are often erroneous, with what would appear to be know-it-all personalities. Gotta love the internet... RTFM do what the ENGINEERS wrote...NOT DEALER "SERVICE ADVISORS" , not most (well-meaning) private mechanics (thought I'd at least listen to an independent brand-specialist shop carefully, or consider non-listed items on very high milage cars).
---HISTORY---
The active ingredient in Techron Concentrate is engineered and manufactured by Chevron. Chevron(Standard Oil of California) that originally invented, made, and patented PEA (polyether amine) fuel additive technology in the 80's. There are some decent competitors today...Shell has a wholesale chemical called "Vektron" for example.
In short, Techron Concentrate is the "original", and still unbeatable fuel system treatment.
Automakers use Chevron gasoline with Techron for EPA testing, even though they do not market gasolines in the Midwest (they used to at least haul from Louisville KY).
Chevron Oronite Chemical Division sells very good PEA fuel system additives (not Techron Concentrate, though) to many well-known customers both as aftermarket chemicals, and for use in bulk gasolines. Typically these customers package and market these chemicals, or use them in bulk gasoline.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
My mechanic just pour Techron into the gas tank when I do the 30K service and he charges me $6 for it. He said all gas has enough detergent to keep injector clean, but once in a while there might be some built up. Putting Tehcron is just one of those thing that's not harmful and may help, and for $6 I just let him do it. I am sure if I don't want it he won't push it but it cost $4-5 at walmart and he's really honest and been working on my cars very well so ...
Now, anecdotally, my older Honda Civic has some knocking (it also burns some small amount of oil), so he said try putting Techcron every 10K or so and that seems to help.
So bottom line, you may not need it, but if it costs you less than $10 every 20K or 30K then why worry about it. If it costs a whole lot more, then you're probably getting ripped off.
Now, anecdotally, my older Honda Civic has some knocking (it also burns some small amount of oil), so he said try putting Techcron every 10K or so and that seems to help.
So bottom line, you may not need it, but if it costs you less than $10 every 20K or 30K then why worry about it. If it costs a whole lot more, then you're probably getting ripped off.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I would ask the question - does the age of the car and type of injector system an older car might have affect any of the replies given here? For example, I have two cars; a 2001 Lexus ES300 with 68,000 miles and a 2010 Toyota Venza with 25,000. Both have fuel injection systems but is there a difference in the two systems which might impact the replies being posted?
Tom D.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
You know, I'm not looking to start a flame war here, but these two statements are rather ironic in that you are purporting to be exactly what you are castigating others for. I recall you providing erroneous advice in other auto threads in the past and brushing off the statements of others. Believe it or not there, are other people out there with both engineering degrees and 20+ years of hands on automotive wrenching experience who can offer useful advice to the novice on an investing forum.BigOil wrote:Late to the party here... this is stuff I know sumthin' (hint hint my "screen name ID...LOL)
6) Post about automotive maintenance (Including this topic in other places) are often erroneous, with what would appear to be know-it-all personalities. Gotta love the internet... RTFM do what the ENGINEERS wrote...NOT DEALER "SERVICE ADVISORS" , not most (well-meaning) private mechanics (thought I'd at least listen to an independent brand-specialist shop carefully, or consider non-listed items on very high milage cars).
As an example in regards to claim #2 vehicles today tend to be more sensitive to gasoline quality then in the past. DI engines are known to be particularly sensitive to gasoline quality as the impurities tend to contribute to the formation of intake valve deposits (while the improved detergent package can help reduce it), and are why manufacturers such as GM have "strongly advised" that owners use Top Tier rated gasoline to mitigate the effect.
That said, I agree that pretty much the sole purpose of an injector cleaning is to line the dealer's pockets, as even on a lower pressure (~50psi) port injected system I've never seen evidence of an injector suffering from a poor spray pattern due to deposits, and I find it even far more unlikely on a modern high pressure (upwards of 1,000 psi) direct injected vehicle.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
Actually I think we agree. I skipped the intricacies of DISI engines (guilty), and yeah they have a different sensitivity..some not so bad some . And other issues (fuel dilution of oil etc.)NHRATA01 wrote:You know, I'm not looking to start a flame war here, but these two statements are rather ironic in that you are purporting to be exactly what you are castigating others for. I recall you providing erroneous advice in other auto threads in the past and brushing off the statements of others. Believe it or not there, are other people out there with both engineering degrees and 20+ years of hands on automotive wrenching experience who can offer useful advice to the novice on an investing forum.BigOil wrote:Late to the party here... this is stuff I know sumthin' (hint hint my "screen name ID...LOL)
6) Post about automotive maintenance (Including this topic in other places) are often erroneous, with what would appear to be know-it-all personalities. Gotta love the internet... RTFM do what the ENGINEERS wrote...NOT DEALER "SERVICE ADVISORS" , not most (well-meaning) private mechanics (thought I'd at least listen to an independent brand-specialist shop carefully, or consider non-listed items on very high milage cars).
As an example in regards to claim #2 vehicles today tend to be more sensitive to gasoline quality then in the past. DI engines are known to be particularly sensitive to gasoline quality as the impurities tend to contribute to the formation of intake valve deposits (while the improved detergent package can help reduce it), and are why manufacturers such as GM have "strongly advised" that owners use Top Tier rated gasoline to mitigate the effect.
That said, I agree that pretty much the sole purpose of an injector cleaning is to line the dealer's pockets, as even on a lower pressure (~50psi) port injected system I've never seen evidence of an injector suffering from a poor spray pattern due to deposits, and I find it even far more unlikely on a modern high pressure (upwards of 1,000 psi) direct injected vehicle.
I found Mechanics, in general, has great insights on in-service failure patterns, and servicing, in-plant, and in vehicles both. Saved my hiney several times at work... But yes, Engineers and Technicians have different roles, and knowledge bases. For experience **in-sevice** Techs rock! Bless those who turn wrenches!
I have not provided erroneous advice that I am aware of...nor am I castigating others. (Other than typical Dealer Service Advisors...) But yeah, some/many Mechanics made or repeated claims that purported to know more than the Owner's manuals and TSBs insofar as recommended maintenance. I trained/lectured a bunch.
Only in lube and fuels related topics though. My personal view, most erroneous information I saw was generated by disingenuous competitive suppliers, or the common confusing results with causality --- "my car made 200,000 miles because I use this lubricant type thing..."
Don't get me going on aftermarket oil additives, PTFE, ridiculous oil change intervals, MLM-sold oils, or a certain companies that buy and resell other's lube and fuel technology.
Last edited by BigOil on Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
tomd37 wrote:I would ask the question - does the age of the car and type of injector system an older car might have affect any of the replies given here? For example, I have two cars; a 2001 Lexus ES300 with 68,000 miles and a 2010 Toyota Venza with 25,000. Both have fuel injection systems but is there a difference in the two systems which might impact the replies being posted?
I think the short answer is that different fuel injector technologies have different sensitivities.
I has a 2000ES (same car) that thing will never die... Just change the oil periodically. I did use a bottle of Techron occasionally. Anecdotally I'm not sure it was needed; the changing oil periodically it's definitely needed as they were sensitive (relative to the competition) under certain very restricted conditions to sludging up with unchanged oil.
I don't know if Venza is DISI (direct injected spark ignited) -- that's the newer fuel injection technology, it is certainly different. Others may know more. But the OEM's always felt they had too many warranty claims from using poor quality fuel. Even in North America! So using good gas is always first.
Re: Fuel injector cleaning
I have always used one of the top-tier gasoline brands and will continue to do so. Thanks for the reply. My wife loves that 2001 ES300 and will drive it as long as she can. At 80, her age may drive that decision. Have had numerous offers from Lexus dealership mechanics and my local mechanic (ex-Lexus mechanic) to purchase the car from her. They might as well be talking to the wall on that matter!
Tom D.