FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

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MP173
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FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by MP173 »

Time to consider a new vehicle. My current Equanox has AWD and I am considering a FWD.

Comments would be appreciated on what can be expected. I live in a snow belt with 50 - 80 inches of snow being normal with lake effect snow frequently. When we get blasted...I tend not to drive.

It has been probably 15 years since I did not have AWD and memory seems to be that the FWD was pretty good in snow.

Ed
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by abuss368 »

For the small difference I would consider AWD. I had a relative who went with FWD and the savings that were small. They regretted it the first winter with snow. I would rather have the safety and comfort.

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FrugalInvestor
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by FrugalInvestor »

Front-wheel-drive is pretty good in snow, but not nearly as good as all-wheel-drive. Although I don't now, I lived for most of my life in places that have long, cold winters with lots of snow and ice. Back in the day I drove vehicles with rear-wheel-drive and then numerous ones with front-wheel-drive before transitioning to all-wheel-drive.

If you ever drive on snowy or icy roads I think you'll be disappointed with anything other than all-wheel-drive after having it. It not only gives you more traction on slippery roads but also adds to the stability and control of the vehicle. It just makes driving more comfortable, predictable and safe in less than ideal conditions.

If you can really stay off the roads completely when there is snow or ice then it will make little or no difference to have front-wheel-drive, but to the extent you do drive in iffy conditions it will help. For me it always added to my peace of mind just knowing that if I really needed to go out that I could without risking getting stuck or driving into the ditch.

Good luck with your decision.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by randomguy »

MP173 wrote:Time to consider a new vehicle. My current Equanox has AWD and I am considering a FWD.

Comments would be appreciated on what can be expected. I live in a snow belt with 50 - 80 inches of snow being normal with lake effect snow frequently. When we get blasted...I tend not to drive.

It has been probably 15 years since I did not have AWD and memory seems to be that the FWD was pretty good in snow.

Ed
Tires matter. A lot. The other thing is the grade that you are trying to go up. The other thing to think about is how often you actually drive in the snow (i.e. getting 60" doesn't really matter much if you only drive on plowed streets) and if you are on flat ground versus strongly sloped area. I lived in Syracuse, NY (i.e. 100+ inches of snow in a good year) and few people had all wheel drive 20 years ago. We all did fine. Everyone did put on snow tires in December though. On the other hand, in the mountain areas of Vermont, it seemed like everyone had a truck (or a subaru) with 4wd. Lots more crappy roads (dirt) that weren't plowed (i.e. you needed the clearence) and much steeper average slopes (need all the traction you can get to get up them).

In a lot of ways fwd/rwd are a heck of a lot better these days than 20 years a go. The various stability control systems can really help you stay on the road.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by whaleknives »

AWD > FrontWD > RWD traction, even with rear engines. I think you'd notice the difference going back to FWD from AWD. We've had either FWD or AWD for 39 years, and we went back to AWD for our current car.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by barnaclebob »

There is no comparison between my 4wd with a rear lsd pathfinder and fwd altima, the 4wd wins hands down. I wouldn't expect too much difference between awd and 4wd in the snow unless you start factoring in lsds or locking diffs. Modern traction and stability control can offer improvements too.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by JohnFiscal »

Even without snow I would take AWD over only two driven wheels. No skittishness on gravel, etc. It seems like that sort of thing always comes up as I'm exiting from a parking lot, slight upgrade, and there is scattered gravel, etc,. One wheel of our one car without AWD spins, kicks, doesn't feel confident or reassuring in this situation. But the Volvo sedan with AWD just goes. So did its predecessor, the Audi A4 with AWD ("Quattro").
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by deanbrew »

The answer depends on how much you need or want to drive when it snows, how long it takes for your local roads to be cleared after a snowfall, and what type of vehicle and tire size you end up with. While many people claim that FWD, driving ability/techniques and tires make all the difference, that only goes so far. I've driven many FWD vehicles, and they are not all the same when it comes to snow. The (relatively) recent trend towards wide/low-profile tires has not been beneficial when it comes to snow handling. In the old days, a fairly skinny/tall tire would do OK in the snow, but most cars now have wide/low tires that are crappy in the snow. If you haven't driven a FWD vehicle for 15 years, I'm afraid you would not be happy with one now, unless you were willing to swap summer and winter tires.

I switched to a Subaru a few years back, and it's terrific in the snow. Yes, I could go back to a FWD vehicle, particularly if I switched to winter tires. I may do so someday, as AWD isn't available on all cars I might be interested in.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by kjvmartin »

I've never owned AWD, but in lower Michigan my FWD car has never been stuck. It's a mid size sedan.

One point of contention with AWD is tires. Replace one, replace 'em all!

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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by Stonebr »

My observation after many years of amusement is that in the wake of a Maine snowstorm, it's the AWD/4WD vehicles that are getting pulled out of snowdrifts. :twisted:

FWD - better fuel economy. With winter tires it closes the gap on AWD. Most of my Subaru and Quattro friends don't bother to switch to winter tires.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by SmileyFace »

I've noticed a HUGE difference in the FWD cars I've had/driven (even those with ALB and Traction-Control) and the AWD car (Subaru Outback) I drive now. I feel much more confident in driving in snow with uncleared roads. Its night-and-day between the slip-and-slide I used to experience and what I experience now. I'll never go back. Years ago there was more of a gas-mileage penalty for going AWD - but this has gone down to almost nil now.

You do see a lot of SUVs getting pulled out of the side of road - I think a lot of folks get overconfidence when driving AWD/4WD and therefore run into more problems.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by adamthesmythe »

> AWD > FrontWD > RWD traction

Actually 4WD > AWD > FWD > RWD. If by 4WD you mean actual locked wheels.

AWD helps, how important it is depends upon what you drive in, what your tires are like, and, perhaps most important, how serious the consequences of getting stuck would be.
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MP173
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by MP173 »

Lotta replies in 30 minutes....keep the comments rolling in.

Leaning toward AWD based on past experience and comments.

Ed
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by FireSekr »

Tires are more important than the FWD/AWD/RWD question.

No matter which option you choose, you need winter tires in the snow. Yes, many people will say all seasons + AWD is fine in the snow. While that may be true if you're just thinking about getting the car moving, AWD does nothing at all to bring the car to a stop, and in fact hinders stopping ability due to the extra 200lbs or so. Tire grip is far more important in getting the car rolling, keeping it in the right direction, and bringing it to a stop.

My car has AWD. I have driven it in the winter with all season tires and snow tires and in no circumstances would I ever go back to all seasons. I used to take it skiing in Vermont and drive through some pretty nasty storms on challenging mountain passes. The winter tires stop the car several car lengths sooner than the all-seasons, and significantly improve traction and handling.

As for AWD vs. FWD, I would not pay the extra money for the AWD. I bought my car used, so I had to take an AWD version, but if I were buying new, I would have stuck with RWD. The AWD kills gas mileage, increases maintenance costs, adds unnecessary weight and costs generally about $1500-2500 extra. That extra weight causes the tires to wear faster, brakes to wear faster, and diminished performance.

AWD is mostly for people who are too lazy to change their tires or too ignorant to know that winter tires are needed, and have fallen victim to car company's marketing. There are certainly circumstances where it helps, but 90% of people who think they need AWD don't, they just need proper tires.

Take $1k of the money you save from not getting AWD and use it to a great set of winter tires/wheels, put the other $1k away for when you have to replace your winter tires in 4 years and you will be far safer than an AWD car with all-seasons.
Last edited by FireSekr on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by FireSekr »

DaftInvestor wrote:I've noticed a HUGE difference in the FWD cars I've had/driven (even those with ALB and Traction-Control) and the AWD car (Subaru Outback) I drive now. I feel much more confident in driving in snow with uncleared roads. Its night-and-day between the slip-and-slide I used to experience and what I experience now. I'll never go back. Years ago there was more of a gas-mileage penalty for going AWD - but this has gone down to almost nil now.

You do see a lot of SUVs getting pulled out of the side of road - I think a lot of folks get overconfidence when driving AWD/4WD and therefore run into more problems.
Most Subarus have all terrain or more traction oriented tires whereas your FWD cars were likely standard all sesons. Those tires have a big impact on traction, probably more than the AWD system. A lot of AWD crossovers have standard all season tires so the AWD does nothing for them. They are in the ditch because the AWD allows them to get moving but does nothing to improve their handling/stopping abilities
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Jonathan
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by Jonathan »

My vote is for STUDDED snow tires with metal studs. Not all-season tires, not rubber studs.

Over 20 years of mountain driving in Colorado, I've learned that, on bad roads, I'd much rather drive a RWD vehicle with studded snows than an AWD vehicle with "all-season" tires.

If you go to a deserted parking lot after getting your studded snow tires put on, and try to do some doughnuts on some snow or ice, you'll be shocked at how much traction you have.

Downside is that they're illegal in some states, or their use is restricted at certain times of year, or you must use rubber studs. Lookup your state here: https://drivinglaws.aaa.com/laws/studded-tires/ .
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by Andyrunner »

FWD is good, AWD is better, snow tires are the best.

My wife has a Corolla w/ snow tires and I have an outback. Her car is better on the ice and slick snow. My car is better getting through heavy snow patches and unplowed streets.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Years ago, I would drive my little Honda CRX with 4 hakkapelitta snows and every snowy morning laugh as I drove around numerous SUVs on all seasons struggling to get up shallow hills and falling off the road where steep hills were.

Don't get studded tires if there's any chance of driving on pavement. I used to stud the hakkas until I almost T boned a car because the studs slid so much on a wet road. I went home and spent a couple hours pulling out the studs.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by stoptothink »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:Years ago, I would drive my little Honda CRX with 4 hakkapelitta snows and every snowy morning laugh as I drove around numerous SUVs on all seasons struggling to get up shallow hills and falling off the road where steep hills were.
Last year had an experience like this driving up Sundance (Utah) in a snowstorm. Tons of 4wd trucks off the road, while my FWD Hyundai accent with snowtires didn't have an issue at all. The difference is dramatic. Get a dedicated set of snow wheels and tires and they will pay for themselves several times over.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by madpunster »

Would add a vote for Subaru's full time symmetrical AWD. It's 4WD all the time as opposed to some other AWD systems which are essentially FWD until a wheel slips then power is transferred to other wheels. I've tried to induce a skid on obvious highway skating rink ice when we lived in the upper midwest and the vehicle just straightens out and motors on down the road. We also brought a family member home from the hospital in Delaware when the State Patrol was enlisting local farmer's horses to rescue people trapped in highway snow.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by DFrank »

adamthesmythe wrote:Actually 4WD > AWD > FWD > RWD. If by 4WD you mean actual locked wheels.
I disagree with this, if by 4WD you mean a vehicle where the front and rear axles are locked together. This is also sometimes also known as a "part time 4WD" vehicle, because the 4WD should only be engaged when on slippery surfaces. The majority of vehicles branded as 4WD are part time 4WD vehicles.

If you ever try to drive a part time 4WD vehicle on dry pavement in 4WD mode you will find that the tires will "hop" when you go around a turn. What's happening is the front and rear axles are trying to turn at different rates, and eventually the tires break traction to release the stress that's built up in the drivetrain. On a slippery surface you don't feel the hop because the tires can easily break traction. Not a problem if you are driving on a dirt road, but potentially a big problem on snow/ice surfaces because that break in traction can lead to sliding sideways in a turn.

By contrast, and AWD and so-called "full time 4WD" vehicles have a differential between the front and rear axles that allows them to rotate at different rates.

So, for snow and ice I would say: AWD (or "full time" 4WD) > "part time" 4WD > FWD > RWD

As for "locked wheels" if you are talking about wheels that are locked left to right, this can be a useful feature for extracting yourself from a situation where one wheel has limited traction and the other has good traction, but it should never be used for general driving on snow or ice. When you go around a turn the wheels on either side of the car need to turn at different rates, and if they are locked (typically via a locking differential) you will likely slide off the road.
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Re: FWD vs AWD

Post by RoC »

stoptothink wrote:
Jack FFR1846 wrote:Years ago, I would drive my little Honda CRX with 4 hakkapelitta snows and every snowy morning laugh as I drove around numerous SUVs on all seasons struggling to get up shallow hills and falling off the road where steep hills were.
Last year had an experience like this driving up Sundance (Utah) in a snowstorm. Tons of 4wd trucks off the road, while my FWD Hyundai accent with snowtires didn't have an issue at all. The difference is dramatic. Get a dedicated set of snow wheels and tires and they will pay for themselves several times over.

I've had similar experiences in my Subaru with good tires, where I was easily going up hills that other 4x4s were struggling with.

About a year ago a friend of mine got a new car. His outgoing car was AWD and his new car was RWD, because of this he got a set of snow tires to deal with the snowy winters he gets. We were talking about it last winter, and he's convinced he will take just about any car with a quality set of snow tires over an AWD vehicle with all-season tires. He says his car with snow tires performs significantly better than his previous AWD vehicle did.

So to the OP, it depends on if you're going to get snow tires or not. If you plan on sticking it out with a good set of all-season tires, then a good AWD system can help you. If however you'll use a good set of snow tires, then you should be good either way.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by ogd »

AWD is better, no question about it.

The police recognizes it too: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/chcontrl.htm . If nothing else, it's nice to be able to skip the chains in R1 conditions which seem to be more frequent than the others.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Jonathan »

Here's a decent working analogy for the studded snow tires and AWD/FWD debate:

Who is more likely to slip on ice? A ballerina wearing plain-soled shoes, or an average person wearing boots with crampons?
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by sport »

AWD is beneficial. Snow tires are beneficial. However, I have been driving FWD with all season tires since 1981, and I live in the snow belt where lake effect is a way of life. If you drive carefully, AWD and/or snow tires are not essential. However, if you want better traction, then you should get either or both of these and tolerate the negative aspects that come with them.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Freddy »

Snow tires on all four wheels no matter what you drive. All wheel drive with snows on is unstoppable. When I used to commute I would always see SUVs in the woods with their headlights facing back toward the road on the interstate. I'm sure they never had snow tires on. Stoping is the most important asset in driving. All season tires do not stop well on snow, and rarely safely on ice. The rubber compound is to hard. Snow tires are softer compounds with silica mixed in with the rubber to assist stopping on ice. Why do Germans drive Rear wheel Benzs in the winter. Because it's the law to have snow tires on cars. It used to be mandatory in NY during a snow emergency, but that was up till the 1970s or so with the introduction of radial tires. I know this is long winded, but I've always gotten to where I had to go with snow tires, be it RW or FW drive. I did have a part time 4WD and would not want to own another one again. AWD, maybe.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by victorb »

We have had two vehicles with AWD and separate wheels with snow tires. The AWD also helps in stability and braking control:
The Vehicle Stability Management system coordinates Electronic Stability Control (ESC), Traction Control System (TCS), plus the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) and Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) with Brake Assist (BA) to create an integrated active-safety system to help you avoid accidents.
I am at the age where safety is of tremendous importance and buying a vehicle with AWD and the above is worth the extra dollars.
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MP173
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by MP173 »

Thanks again for all input.

I have never had a problem stopping in the winter. My secret...put the transmission into neutral when I sense there is slippery conditions and I am needing to stop. Taking the car out of drive is a dramatic method to stop quickly, safely, and without sliding.

I would appreciate comments on this from others. If there is a downside...let me know.

BTW...I was unaware that snow tires are being sold these days. If one had a FWD, would one purchase only for the front drive, or all four tires?

Ed
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by BlueFalcorn »

Snow tires matter more than the which set of wheels power the car. Pick the car you like and get a good set of snow tires. The rest is just details. My 99 Miata on snows worked wonderfully in a Minnesota winter (though it still was a small cramped Miata).

If AWD gives you some form of psychological sense of safety that is a different animal. Without snow tires AWD can get you moving more quickly, but does little/nothing when trying brake or turn. It may be worth it for peace of mind, but recognize it comes at the cost of weight and fuel economy.

You would buy snows for all four tires on any vehicle.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Peter Foley »

I live in Minnesota so snow is a significant factor in terms of vehicle choice and tire choice. We have had a FWD car and an AWD small SUV for the past 10 years. We tend to drive the AWD more in the winter. It was my wife's go to car for commuting.

As mentioned tires also make a big difference. Read about the Michelin Defenders - they are all season tires with a winter bias. My son in law has a FWD SUV (Madison, Wisconsin) and he said a switch to the Defenders made a significant difference in winter handling.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by shanefairman »

Tire are far more important than FWD vs AWD. Just get a good set of winter tires. I highly recommend Nokian
Hakkapeliitta R2.

I drive almost the worse car possible for snow (2001 Honda Insight hybrid). It weighs 1850 pounds and has less than 6 inches ground clearance. The kicker is the rear tiers are inset over 2 inches on each side from the front. I currently have Nokian WRG3 tires but an planning on getting the R2s for this winter. I live on a dirt road and drive 72 miles a day round trip down the shore of Lake Huron. In the last 2 years we have had quite a bit of snow and each year there was one day each year that I didn't even attempt to leave the driveway and decided to work from home.

Just spend some money on another set of rims and a set of winter tires. You will likely save on purchase price, fuel, and maintenance by going with a FWD vehicle, especially if comparing the same year and model FWD vs AWD.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

My climate is similar to yours. I've never had AWD, but I've also never felt like I needed it. FWD has always seemed fine to me.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by poker27 »

I have an AWD car, for both performance and snow reasons. AWD is obviously far superior to FWD. Of course tires are a big help, but you will only have two tires (or sometimes one) tire to get you moving.

Now there are some hidden costs with AWD, IMO. Gas mileage, if you have one bad tire you need to replace all 4, more things can go wrong, ect
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by deanbrew »

To answer the above question, if you get winter tires, absolutely get all four. The last thing you want is to have uneven traction on one end (either end, no matter which end has locomotion), which can result in spinouts or sliding.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by texasdiver »

I drove a FWD Camry in Juneau AK for 5 years without the slightest problem and Juneau has MUCH worse snow and ice driving than what you describe. I just put on 4 studded snow tires all winter and was good to go. I saw a lot more heavy 4x4 SUVs in the ditches around Juneau than small FWD economy cars.

I think it depends more on your driving environment. If you are mostly just suburban and urban commuting and driving on freeways then FWD will serve you fine in most snow environments. However if you have a lot of rural driving on poorly plowed roads or drive in mountains and remote areas in winter then proper AWD will be useful.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by sport »

deanbrew wrote:To answer the above question, if you get winter tires, absolutely get all four. The last thing you want is to have uneven traction on one end (either end, no matter which end has locomotion), which can result in spinouts or sliding.
This is 100% correct. On a FWD car, you want snow tires on the front to get you moving. However, if they are only on the front, when you try to stop on a slippery surface, the front will want to stop while the back wants to slide. The result is a spinout. So, if you want snow tires, they must go on all 4 wheels. Otherwise, you are better off without them. Well, you could put them on the rear only, but that would not help you get going.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by amd2135 »

My FWD '14 Mazda6 absolutely dominates my old 4WD '02 GMC Envoy in the snow. I have confidence that it will get me where I need to go safely. I've seen trucks get temporarily stuck in snow drifts my FWD sedan plows right through.

The Mazda6 has Blizzak snow tires in the winter. The Envoy had Michelin all seasons.

As for the neutral trick: Careful, it's not safe in all cars. My Mazda's manual mentions that shifting into neutral while moving can potentially damage the transaxle. The Envoy's manual had no such warning that I can recall.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Browser »

You might want to consider how much power is transferred from front to rear wheels in you AWD vehicle, unless it is full time 4WD. For example, many AWD vehicles transfer less than 50% of the power to the rear wheels when they kick in. That might help a little bit in slippery conditions, but for my money it's not enough to cough up the extra bucks for AWD, maintenance, and fuel. Desirably, an AWD vehicle should be capable of transferring 100% to the rear wheels.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

MP173 wrote: I have never had a problem stopping in the winter. My secret...put the transmission into neutral when I sense there is slippery conditions and I am needing to stop. Taking the car out of drive is a dramatic method to stop quickly, safely, and without sliding.
You've probably never had a problem stopping because you use common sense and drive at speeds safe for the inclement weather, but not because you put your car in neutral. That does next to nothing to improve braking distance and you will still have next to no handling with all-seasons. As others have mentioned, they get too stiff in colder temperatures so even without snow you will have a greater stopping distance, less traction, and worse handling.

Do yourself a favor and use winter tires, you will be amazed how much safer and more confident the car will feel. This will also allow you to use summer tires during all other seasons. Summer tires have significantly better traction, handling and braking than all seasons and perform much better in rain assuming you get a good summer tire.

There's a reason all-season tires are called no-season tires
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

shanefairman wrote:Tire are far more important than FWD vs AWD. Just get a good set of winter tires. I highly recommend Nokian
Hakkapeliitta R2.
+2 Nokians are the best, far better than Blizzak or any other snow tire
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SpringMan
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SpringMan »

I agree with those that said 4WD>AWD>FWD>RWD. Of course tires do make a difference. Personally I like AT style tires, I believe AT is short for All Terrain. They are more aggressive than all season / all purpose but less aggressive than MT which is short for Mud Terrain. I drive a 4WD Silverado pickup with crew cab. Most modern 4WD vehicles have a 4WD auto option where they essentially act as AWD. Good for use on roads where there are both dry patches and icy patches. The reasons 4WD are superior to AWD are ground clearance, approach and decent angles and often skid plate protection and locking differentials. Deep snow is harder to get through with lower ground clearance. Also, I am not a fan of low aspect ratio tires, the ones that mount on a large rim and look flat all the time. They cost more to replace and perform worse off road. I don't switch tires for winter, just use the AT style year around. My second vehicle is a FWD minivan, when it becomes time to replace it, I am going to look at something with AWD. Wife has had a knee replacement and does not want a high entry height that truck style SUVs have.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by DFrank »

SpringMan wrote:I agree with those that said 4WD>AWD>FWD>RWD. Of course tires do make a difference. Personally I like AT style tires, I believe AT is short for All Terrain. They are more aggressive than all season / all purpose but less aggressive than MT which is short for Mud Terrain. I drive a 4WD Silverado pickup with crew cab. Most modern 4WD vehicles have a 4WD auto option where they essentially act as AWD. Good for use on roads where there are both dry patches and icy patches. The reasons 4WD are superior to AWD are ground clearance, approach and decent angles and often skid plate protection and locking differentials. Deep snow is harder to get through with lower ground clearance. Also, I am not a fan of low aspect ratio tires, the ones that mount on a large rim and look flat all the time. They cost more to replace and perform worse off road. I don't switch tires for winter, just use the AT style year around. My second vehicle is a FWD minivan, when it becomes time to replace it, I am going to look at something with AWD. Wife has had a knee replacement and does not want a high entry height that truck style SUVs have.
In areas with heavy snow, I agree that a vehicle with higher ground clearance is helpful. It doesn't help to have to plow the snow out of the way by pushing a low ground clearance car through deep snow. High ground clearance is often associated with 4WD vehicles, but not always.

A 4WD with an "Auto mode" is essentially an AWD vehicle. The reason they are marketed as 4WD is they have a 2 speed transfer case with both a high and low range. Vehicle's in this category are equipped with a center differential that allows the front and rear axles to rotate at different rates, and are essentially full time 4WD vehicles. Not all 4WD vehicles are full time 4WD though, so beware. To cite just one popular example, for the Toyota 4Runner, a popular SUV, if you buy any model other than the Limited version it will be part time 4WD.

For purposes of thinking about driving on roads with snow/ice a full time 4WD is the same as an AWD vehicle (off road considerations are a different matter). A part time 4WD vehicle is not better than a full time 4WD or AWD in snow and ice because in a part time 4WD vehicle the front and rear axles are locked together. When you go around a turn the front and rear axles need to rotate at different rates, which means tires will slip if the axles are mechanically locked together. When the tires slip on snow/ice as you go around a turn you increase the chances of sliding sideways.

You do NOT want to drive on snow/ice with your rear differential locked. When you go around a turn the left and ride side wheels need to turn at different rates. You WILL slide sideways if you drive around a turn at speed with limited traction, such as on snow or ice with your differential locked. A locking diff can be useful to extract yourself from a situation where one wheel has good traction, and the other has limited traction. But, for general driving around an snow and ice keep the differential unlocked.

High approach and departure angles, skidplates, etc. are all useful features for off road use, but I don't think they help in snow on paved roads.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by surfstar »

Snow tires for the winter and then it doesn't matter which vehicle you choose.

This way you're not cornered into compromising on your new car purchase. No need to limit the search to RWD or AWD or FWD. Just find the vehicle you like, and buy a set of steel wheels and winter tires to go along with it.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Browser »

Can anyone explain just what an AWD vehicle actually does for you? I can see it if you are slogging offroad through mud or snow where having some power to both front and rear might help you get unstuck or where I'm crawling over big rocks. I can see it in vehicles like Audi quattro where things like high speed cornering and maneuverability might be better. But it isn't going to do much for you to keep you from fishtailing or sliding off the road on an icy or slick surfaces. So, unless I fall into the "might often get stuck in mud or snow" or "high speed cornering" categories and I always drive on paved surfaces that aren't full of 5-foot deep snow, why would I need this? Frankly, I think it's a way for car makers to get more money out of consumers who think they "need" AWD. I look at dealer inventories and they are jammed with AWD vehicles and very few FWD. More money for the dealer.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by deanbrew »

Browser wrote:Can anyone explain just what an AWD vehicle actually does for you? I can see it if you are slogging offroad through mud or snow where having some power to both front and rear might help you get unstuck or where I'm crawling over big rocks. I can see it in vehicles like Audi quattro where things like high speed cornering and maneuverability might be better. But it isn't going to do much for you to keep you from fishtailing or sliding off the road on an icy or slick surfaces. So, unless I fall into the "might often get stuck in mud or snow" or "high speed cornering" categories and I always drive on paved surfaces that aren't full of 5-foot deep snow, why would I need this? Frankly, I think it's a way for car makers to get more money out of consumers who think they "need" AWD. I look at dealer inventories and they are jammed with AWD vehicles and very few FWD. More money for the dealer.
I can't address SUVs with AWD, or other vehicles that implement AWD "on demand" when a wheel starts spinning. But I can address Subaru's full-time AWD. It does far more than helping you get unstuck or with high-speed cornering, although it does help in both of those instances. I am able to drive my Subaru and a couple of FWD vehicles on regular occasions in the winter, and there is no comparison regarding stability and performance on snowy, slushy or even just plain old wet roads. The AWD Subaru is much easier and comforting to drive when roads are anything other than dry. I believe Subaru's system is like Audi's Quattro system, and they are not only about high performance driving. It actually does "keep you from fishtailing or sliding off the road on icy or slick surfaces".

You also mention offroad driving through mud or over rocks. For that, you want true 4WD made for off-road use, with locking differentials. As has been pointed out several times, that's a different animal than full-time AWD like on Subarus, Audis and some other vehicles. You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding manufacturers and dealers wanting to charge more, but Subaru has pretty much made their name with reliable AWD vehicles. They only offer one model in their entire lineup that doesn't have AWD as a standard, no substitute feature.

To the chagrin of those above who insist otherwise, I've never felt the need to swap out the all-season tires on my Subaru. Sure, I could get even better traction with winter tires, no question, but it is quite good in the snow with standard all-season tires. As I said before, ther are lots of factors to driving in the snow, and all FWD vehicles are not the same. Tire size, width, profile, rubber composition and tread all make a difference.
Last edited by deanbrew on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DFrank
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by DFrank »

The benefit of an AWD (or full time 4WD) vehicle is that they will route torque to the wheel(s) that have the best traction. In conditions of mixed traction where some wheel(s) have better traction than others the car will automatically direct torque to those wheels so you can keep moving forward. These are the sorts of conditions you might find on a road that's been cleared of snow, but still has patches of snow or ice mixed with areas that are clear and have better traction. Even on a road completely covered with snow and ice you can find some places on the road that have better traction than others.

If the road surface is uniformly slippery than it doesn't do a whole lot of good and you are back to having good tires and good driving technique, which is why so many in this thread have focused on the tires, and indicated they have positive experiences in snow country with non-AWD vehicles.

Other than the performance example cited by Bowser, I wouldn't buy an AWD vehicle if I didn't live or travel in snow country.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by enebyberg »

I've been working in Sweden for more than 15 years. We have to switch to four snow tires from November through March by law. Studded tires or non studded, it's your choice. I have had a FWD with four studded snows all Winter and it has worked fantastic. Four snow tires during the winter months really make the difference.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by William4u »

My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SleepKing »

texasdiver wrote:I drove a FWD Camry in Juneau AK for 5 years without the slightest problem and Juneau has MUCH worse snow and ice driving than what you describe. I just put on 4 studded snow tires all winter and was good to go. I saw a lot more heavy 4x4 SUVs in the ditches around Juneau than small FWD economy cars.

I think it depends more on your driving environment. If you are mostly just suburban and urban commuting and driving on freeways then FWD will serve you fine in most snow environments. However if you have a lot of rural driving on poorly plowed roads or drive in mountains and remote areas in winter then proper AWD will be useful.
Great comment.

We have two AWD cars and we are comfortable with those in the winter. Some of my colleagues swear by snow tires on their FWD or AWD vehicles as well. Our road is the last to get plowed and 'snow day' is not an excuse to miss call. With that said, we had to FWD with 'all season tires' prior and managed to get by (only stuck in my driveway once, but Chevy Malibu not meant to go though a pile of plowed snow!). I do like our AWD vehicles though; gives a sense of security.

After reading this thread, I might go for snow tires. Fairly convincing.

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Toons
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Toons »

"I live in a snow belt with 50 - 80 inches of snow " :shock:
Enuff said,,,without a doubt AWD.
I lived in Western NY,next to Lake Erie for a long time,,,I can relate. :happy
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