FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

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DFrank
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by DFrank »

William4u wrote:My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
Kind of an apples and oranges comparison though. The first video clearly concludes that the AWD with snow tires outperforms the FWD with snow tires. This highlights the importance of snow tires, but also shows that if you want the best performance in snow you want AWD as well.
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SmileyFace
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SmileyFace »

William4u wrote:My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
Thanks for the video references but unfortunately none of them compare FWD with winter tires to 4WD/AWD with All-Season tires. The first uses Summer tires on an AWD car (do they sell AWD cars with Summer tires? Maybe they do in the UK - every AWD/4WD car I ever looked at had All-Season tires as standard equipment). The second video compared Summer, All-Season, and Winter Tires on the same car. The last video again compared Summer tires to Winter tires on the same car. No fair comparison.

My own personal experience is that my AWD car with All-Season tires does much better than a previous FWD car I owned with Winter Studded tires. Perhaps there are just way to many variables to make a generic statement - but for me - a lot of it is also convenience - it just isn't worth storing a extra set of tires (and spending the expense on 4 new rims; or on paying for mounting/balancing every 6 months) but I'm not in an area that is snow/ice covered all winter long.
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William4u
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by William4u »

DaftInvestor wrote:
William4u wrote:My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
Thanks for the video references but unfortunately none of them compare FWD with winter tires to 4WD/AWD with All-Season tires. The first uses Summer tires on an AWD car (do they sell AWD cars with Summer tires? Maybe they do in the UK - every AWD/4WD car I ever looked at had All-Season tires as standard equipment). The second video compared Summer, All-Season, and Winter Tires on the same car. The last video again compared Summer tires to Winter tires on the same car. No fair comparison.
The second video that compares (1) winter tires to (2) all season and (3) summer tires is a good one for cornering grip and braking grip. AWD makes virtually no difference for braking grip or even cornering grip. Arguable, braking and cornering grip are more important on snow and ice that anything else.
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William4u
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by William4u »

DFrank wrote:
William4u wrote:My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
Kind of an apples and oranges comparison though. The first video clearly concludes that the AWD with snow tires outperforms the FWD with snow tires. This highlights the importance of snow tires, but also shows that if you want the best performance in snow you want AWD as well.
It doesn't show AWD, but it does show 4WD, which does have much better grip than AWD. So the conclusion is that 4WD with snow tires outperforms FWD with snow tires, but FWD with snow tires still is much better than 4WD or AWD with summer or all season (see especially the second video above).

Here is another video that only compares snow tires to all season...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfvyPtYR0Y

Here are three articles that all state that a FWD snow tire car is much better than an AWD all season car...
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/sno ... heel-drive
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3 ... -15202862/
http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-rev ... story.html
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SmileyFace
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SmileyFace »

William4u wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
William4u wrote:My wife and I live in a place that is frozen solid the whole winter. We only use FWD cars with Michelin Ice X3 snow tires, and they work great. We got 113 inches of snow one winter recently, and were fine.

The AWD cars without snow tires do much more poorly. It isn't even close.

Consumer Reports says as much.

And this video comparing 4WD with FWD shows the reason why. The FWD with winter tires outperform the 4WD without them by a large margin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

These videos show how much better winter tires stop on snow and ice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wTg0l3_wI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI
Thanks for the video references but unfortunately none of them compare FWD with winter tires to 4WD/AWD with All-Season tires. The first uses Summer tires on an AWD car (do they sell AWD cars with Summer tires? Maybe they do in the UK - every AWD/4WD car I ever looked at had All-Season tires as standard equipment). The second video compared Summer, All-Season, and Winter Tires on the same car. The last video again compared Summer tires to Winter tires on the same car. No fair comparison.
The second video that compares (1) winter tires to (2) all season and (3) summer tires is a good one for cornering grip and braking grip. AWD makes virtually no difference for braking grip or even cornering grip. Arguable, braking and cornering grip are more important on snow and ice that anything else.
So you are saying if i have 4 wheels to transfer power to/from to grip a corner it makes virtually no difference as compared to two? How can that be? Subaru would certainly beg to differ :happy
I'm left thinking the commercial videos you reference (which are trying to sell us all another set of tires) purposely didn't do the AWD with All-Season Tire to FWD with Winter Tire comparison since the results where not in their favor.
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SmileyFace
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SmileyFace »

William4u wrote: Here are three articles that all state that a FWD snow tire car is much better than an AWD all season car...
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/sno ... heel-drive
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3 ... -15202862/
http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-rev ... story.html
The first article from 2001 compares an old generation 4WD to FWD - so in fairness - not AWD.
I read the last article twice and couldn't find any conclusions or statements about FWD being better than AWD.
The popular mechanics post does seem to draw this conclusion - from one person's personal point of view without any testing information backing up the opinion - with many folks chiming in to dis-agree.

I'm not trying to nitpick William4u - this has just been a curiosity of mine as well and you are stating something as if it is a fact and showing videos and citing articles that don't really back up the claim. I'm still guessing "it all depends" but my personal experience is AWD rules.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Browser »

I must say that after seeing the linked articles and videos it's clear as crystal to me that I'd be better off saving the $1500 or so added markup for an AWD vs. FWD and putting it toward a good set of winter tires instead. The AWD wouldn't be worth much until I put winter tires on it too so I'm up by $1500. I'll also be saving the extra maintenance cost of that rear differential and a little bit on fuel as well. Thanks a bunch for helping me decide on this once and for all, as I've been shopping new cars for awhile now. But the next time I'm driving in the Alaskan Cross Country Winter Auto Race, I'll be sure to use a Subaru with winter tires. :thumbsup
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deanbrew
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by deanbrew »

DaftInvestor wrote:I'm not trying to nitpick William4u - this has just been a curiosity of mine as well and you are stating something as if it is a fact and showing videos and citing articles that don't really back up the claim. I'm still guessing "it all depends" but my personal experience is AWD rules.
I agree that "it all depends". I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by deanbrew »

Browser wrote:But the next time I'm driving in the Alaskan Cross Country Winter Auto Race, I'll be sure to use a Subaru with winter tires. :thumbsup
If you really, really want/need to drive in the snow and slush, that would be the setup - a Subaru with winter tires.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Browser »

deanbrew wrote:
Browser wrote:But the next time I'm driving in the Alaskan Cross Country Winter Auto Race, I'll be sure to use a Subaru with winter tires. :thumbsup
If you really, really want/need to drive in the snow and slush, that would be the setup - a Subaru with winter tires.
I lived in Flagstaff once, and it was a State Law that everyone living there had to drive a Subaru. :D
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William4u
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by William4u »

There are no large-n double blind studies on this issue, so there is no gold-standard science to back up any claims here. The preponderance of the evidence from various car mags is in favor of the winter tires over AWD with all seasons all things considered.

Here are some Consumer Reports articles that touch on the subject...
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012 ... /index.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/maga ... /index.htm
FireSekr
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by deanbrew »

ssquared87 wrote:
deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
I never mentioned RWD cars at all.
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dbr
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by dbr »

Good grief. If you really want capability and security you get a good AWD vehicle AND you put snow tires on it for winter conditions.

There are, however, winter climates where the local driving conditions are well plowed and clear roads most of the time where snow tires may not be particularly helpful or even actually be the best choice and a person has to judge how much driving is going to done in rural/mountain areas where snow and ice actually prevail and how much where roads are mainly clear and dry in the winter. Proper regard for conditions goes a long way as well.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SmileyFace »

ssquared87 wrote:
deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
Can you provide some resources/links to the "countless analysis". I've done a variety of google searches but I'm coming up empty.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by tomd37 »

Well this subject is about beaten to death now so I will ask about tire replacement on an AWD vehicle. If one or two of the tires wear abnormally for any reason do you have to replace all four tires instead of just the two requiring replacement?
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

tomd37 wrote:Well this subject is about beaten to death now so I will ask about tire replacement on an AWD vehicle. If one or two of the tires wear abnormally for any reason do you have to replace all four tires instead of just the two requiring replacement?
Potentially. If the tires were new, then probably you can get away with just replacing the one or two.

The problem is that there can't be a big variation in tread depth between the tires because it causes additional wear on the differential. If your tires are at 4/32 of an inch and you replace one with a tire at 10/32 of an inch, it will be a problem

Tire rack has a service where they will shave the new tire to the same depth as the other tires, so that is how you can get around replacing all 4 tires
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

DaftInvestor wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
Can you provide some resources/links to the "countless analysis". I've done a variety of google searches but I'm coming up empty.
Sure, links below, they may not be completely scientific, but the point is clear.

Also, even if you have AWD, you shouldn't be using all seasons in cold weather. The compound stiffens up the colder it gets and will be like a hockey puck. This affects your acceleration, handling, and stopping ability even on dry pavement. Winter tires have compounds that remain soft in the cold to stay planted to the ground.

In either case, winter tires will be better for the OP whether an AWD or a FWD car is picked. Most of the time AWD is not necessary for snow, and that's coming from someone who frequently drives un-plowed mountain passes in my AWD car with snow tires and a friend's identical but RWD version of the car with snow tires. The AWD is slightly better at getting the car moving, but the difference is negligible.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/w ... drive.html
"The front-wheel-drive car with winter tires outperformed the AWD car with all-season tires in nearly every test. The all-wheel-drive vehicle had the edge in acceleration, but when it came time to hit the brakes, its braking distance was significantly longer than the FWD car. Of course, if the AWD vehicle had a full set of winter tires, it would be the hands-down winner, but this test goes to show you the importance of good tires."

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/01/what-b ... -with.html

http://jalopnik.com/heres-irrefutable-p ... 1671708207
While this one compares RWD with winter tires to AWD with summer, if you look at the other comparisons of summer vs. winter in snow you will see that all seasons are only marginally better than the summer tires in snow, so the subaru wouldn't do much better with all seasons. Also, the Subaru is much heavier than the M3, which should give it a huge improvement in traction over the M3 in those conditions, but it's not even close

Here's another article which isn't scientific, but written by someone who is clearly qualified to judge:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3 ... -15202862/

I've also seen some analysis in consumer reports a while back but I no longer have a subscription so I can't find them
Last edited by FireSekr on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

deanbrew wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
I never mentioned RWD cars at all.
RWD is considered to have less traction than FWD, so if an RWD car with winter tires has more traction than an AWD with all seasons, then certainly a FWD car w/winter tires will also have better traction than an AWD vehicle with all seasons
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by SmileyFace »

ssquared87 wrote:
DaftInvestor wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
deanbrew wrote: I am confident saying that an AWD car with all-season tires would beat a FWD car with winter tires in acceleration, and the opposite would be true of braking. Cornering and handling, I'm less certain, though I think it might be close, and would likely depend on many factors.
You may be confident but you're dead wrong. I would event go as far as saying a properly balanced RWD car (i.e. BMW/Infiniti/Porsche) with snow tires will accelerate far better than an AWD car with all-season. Countless analysis have proved this, and I have actually tried it first hand in a snow covered parking lot with a RWD bmw 3 with snows and a subaru with all seasons
Can you provide some resources/links to the "countless analysis". I've done a variety of google searches but I'm coming up empty.
Sure, links below, they may not be completely scientific, but the point is clear.

Also, even if you have AWD, you shouldn't be using all seasons in cold weather. The compound stiffens up the colder it gets and will be like a hockey puck. This affects your acceleration, handling, and stopping ability even on dry pavement. Winter tires have compounds that remain soft in the cold to stay planted to the ground.

In either case, winter tires will be better for the OP whether an AWD or a FWD car is picked. Most of the time AWD is not necessary for snow, and that's coming from someone who frequently drives un-plowed mountain passes in my AWD car with snow tires and a friend's identical but RWD version of the car with snow tires. The AWD is slightly better at getting the car moving, but the difference is negligible.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/w ... drive.html
"The front-wheel-drive car with winter tires outperformed the AWD car with all-season tires in nearly every test. The all-wheel-drive vehicle had the edge in acceleration, but when it came time to hit the brakes, its braking distance was significantly longer than the FWD car. Of course, if the AWD vehicle had a full set of winter tires, it would be the hands-down winner, but this test goes to show you the importance of good tires."

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/01/what-b ... -with.html

http://jalopnik.com/heres-irrefutable-p ... 1671708207
While this one compares RWD with winter tires to AWD with summer, if you look at the other comparisons of summer vs. winter in snow you will see that all seasons are only marginally better than the summer tires in snow, so the subaru wouldn't do much better with all seasons. Also, the Subaru is much heavier than the M3, which should give it a huge improvement in traction over the M3 in those conditions, but it's not even close

Here's another article which isn't scientific, but written by someone who is clearly qualified to judge:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3 ... -15202862/

I've also seen some analysis in consumer reports a while back but I no longer have a subscription so I can't find them
Thanks for this! The edmunds article was particularly insightful. Interestingly my experience was the opposite but then again - I'm comparing a RWD car from 15 years ago (with snow tires) to an AWD car from today.

OP: another consideration is ground clearance. I found with my AWD car the extra clearance it has sometimes allows me to get over the mounds on cross streets left by a sloppy plow driver. When I had my regular RWD Sedan - I once got stuck on a turn due to a mound I couldn't clear.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by FireSekr »

DaftInvestor wrote:
Thanks for this! The edmunds article was particularly insightful. Interestingly my experience was the opposite but then again - I'm comparing a RWD car from 15 years ago (with snow tires) to an AWD car from today.
No problem just want everyone to be safe.

The thing with RWD cars is that it is highly dependent on weight balance. BMW Porsche some Infiniti as well as a few other cars have a 50/50 weight balance. Most American RWD cars tend to have 60% of the weight in the front and only 40% in the back. This is why people who have driven these in the snow feel that they have less grip than a FWD car which has 60% of the weight on the front.

If you were to take 3 identical cars with a 50/50 weight balance and compare a FWD to RWD to AWD version, the difference in traction between the 3 would be next to nothing for the initial start up. As the car starts accelerating, the RWD will gain traction as weight shifts back and the FWD will begin losing traction as there is less weight over the drive wheels. AWD on the other hand depends on the way the system is setup. BMWs xDrive can transfer 100% of power to the front or rear wheels, so as the car is accelerating weight shifts back and the system also transfers power from the front wheels to the back since those are the tires with more grip. Most systems work in a similar manner, but cant shift more than 40 or 50% of the powerto the back
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by amd2135 »

ssquared87 wrote:[+2 Nokians are the best, far better than Blizzak or any other snow tire
Good luck finding them anywhere at all. I gave up and got the brand new Blizzak WS80. They work great.
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MP173
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by MP173 »

I am purchasing the FWD Equanox and many thanks to all who have contributed.

We do have the Subaru Outback so we should be well prepared.

Reasons for the FWD:
1. Availability and price. $2500 less than AWD.
2. Snow tire option. My tire center (who also does mechanical work on our vehicles) gave an endorsement for the winter tire option. He gave me a budget price of $200 per tire and then $90 to change all. He cautioned to purchase the tires by Oct 1st.
3. The potential expense of AWD and changing all tires in case of a blowout or failure of one tire. This was confirmed by both the car dealer and tire center. I never knew this and thank those on the thread for pointing this out....the slight difference in tire tread can cause damage to differential or transmission.

Again, thanks to all.

Ed
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by Browser »

Yes. I second the thanks to posters. As I stated upthread this thread has helped me to confirm that all I will need in a new vehicle is FWD -- even if the dealers are stuffing their lots with AWD and pushing customers to buy them. I once had a Honda Accord with FWD and remember one winter in which I had a heck of a time getting it up the driveway and into the garage with the front wheels slipping and the car not tracking straight into the garage door opening. I've always thought it was because I should have had an AWD, but now I know I should have had snow tires and that would have taken care of the problem.
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William4u
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by William4u »

MP173 wrote:...
2. Snow tire option. My tire center (who also does mechanical work on our vehicles) gave an endorsement for the winter tire option. He gave me a budget price of $200 per tire and then $90 to change all. He cautioned to purchase the tires by Oct 1st.
Oct 1st for sure! Where we live by mid-to-late Oct there is a winter tire waiting list a mile long.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by surfstar »

I highly recommend that you online price shop and get that $200 per tire cost, much lower, then ask if they can match it (since it seems like you prefer that shop). Unless that $800 includes a set of steel wheels, that seems quite overpriced. With winter tires on their own set of wheels, a tire swap is easy and can be done in 20 mins at home.
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Re: FWD vs AWD (Vehicle)

Post by bhsince87 »

My wife drives an FWD SUV, and she had some occasional issues when running all season radials. In our part of PA, roads are cleared fairly rapidly, and there are maybe 5-6 days in a typical winter when conditions are really bad. And ice is just as likely to cause a bad day as snow.

In the past, we relied on temporary cable chains when conditions warranted (front wheels only). They worked fine, as long as you kept your speed down in turns. But they are a bit of a hassle (cold, dirty, noisy, and rough).

Last winter, we went with snow tires all around. That made a HUGE difference! I mean, like wow, where have you been all my life! We have a long driveway with a wide area where I can do donuts, so I can test things out when it gets icy or snowy. Her FWD fared just as well as my 4WD.

We keep the cable chains in the SUV in case of an emergency, but didn’t need to use them at all last year.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
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