solar energy in new england

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
Topic Author
pablolo
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:32 pm

solar energy in new england

Post by pablolo »

has anyone had solar panels installed on their home roofs? Is it an energy saver? how long does it take to break even? pros vs cons? thank you
User avatar
Uncle Pennybags
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:05 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Uncle Pennybags »

Me too. Any information on companies who install for "free" and charge each month for the power "their" panels generate? I see these panels allover but I wonder how much of their profit is government subsidies?

This is from a local power company that is big on solar.

PSE&G’s Solar Loan Program can help make solar ownership affordable for qualified PSE&G electric customers by financing a major portion of their solar system and providing a unique repayment option.
123
Posts: 10415
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by 123 »

I don't know about local arrangements in New England but my general impression is that the key to the whole residential solar energy business is the financing issue, since I doubt anyone wants to pay cash in full for them. I think many of them are installed and sold on some kind of lease arrangement. As a result problems can arise when the property owner needs to sell the property on which they are installed. The lease may not be transferable or the next owner may not be willing to take over the lease. Consequently the original buyer may have to pay off the lease sooner then expected. Advances in technology over time may make a potential subsequent property purchaser view them as obsolete or have doubts about service and maintenance issues for them.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
User avatar
unclescrooge
Posts: 6265
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:00 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by unclescrooge »

I just got solar panels in Los Angeles.

The lease option was expensive - over $4/watt installed before rebates/tax credits. Also, the system size was hard to figure out - the quotes listed the system output so it wasn't always an apples to apples comparison.

There was also something called a prepaid lease that made even less sense.

My biggest concern was the lack of information about the ownership of the panels in 20 years. The salesman was happy to say that they won't be worth anything so we'll probably just give them to you. When asked to provide that on the contract, that didn't happen. If the panels are guaranteed to produce 83% of the output after 25 years and electricity rates go up 3% a year, then I'm looking at a system with an economic value of close to what I already paid in to it! I doubt anyone would "just give them to me".

In the end I just bought them outright. With cash.

I used a local independent installer who used to be an electrical engineer for Disney. Very professional and technically competent.

I paid $3.68/watt installed. This includes a sprinkler system to clean the panels since it's possible to go a year without rain where I live.

When you do your calculations remember to consider that your utility bill gets paid with after-tax dollars, but solar generation is tax-free!
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by btenny »

New England is too far north and too cloudy and stormy to get enough sun to make solar electric work well. So no one that I know of sells the panels or installs them there. Plus solar works the best in summer when New Englanders don't need much energy. You guys need lots of energy in the winter for heating when the sun is very low in the sky and only shines for 6 hours a day. So not much energy.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18499
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

New England isn't specific enough. Massachusetts has programs to pay you in advance for the electricity and installation from anyone is free. I had my garage checked (24x36) and with some (a lot) of tree removal, buying would pay back in 3 years with all the incentives, rebates and tax treatments. I can't drive 5 miles without coming across 5 acre solar farms. I'm 25 miles west of Boston.

I have no idea what the other 5 states of New England offer.

Massachusetts ranks 4th in the US for currently installed solar capacity.

http://www.seia.org/state-solar-policy/massachusetts
Last edited by Jack FFR1846 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
User avatar
SmileyFace
Posts: 9184
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by SmileyFace »

btenny wrote:New England is too far north and too cloudy and stormy to get enough sun to make solar electric work well. So no one that I know of sells the panels or installs them there. Plus solar works the best in summer when New Englanders don't need much energy. You guys need lots of energy in the winter for heating when the sun is very low in the sky and only shines for 6 hours a day. So not much energy.
Not true in two counts.
There are dozens of installers in New England. And many of us have much higher electric bills in the summer when using ACs are cranking (most of us have natural gas or oil in the winter so less electric is used in the winter). At least two installers have come right to my door trying to sell. There are companies that will own the equipment and the energy and sell it to you cheaper than the electric company (or so they say) and keep the excess. I think one is Solar City. When I looked into it the break even point for me was about 10 years (I'm MA) so I've held off. Several of my neighbors have installed. Now I'd you live up in Maine it might be a differnt story.
Search other threads here - some folks in New England who have gone solar have spoken up on other threads.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18499
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

As mentioned, electricity is far more expensive in New England than it is almost anywhere (except maybe Hawaii). My 2800 square foot air conditioned house summer monthly electric bill is always over $300. Winter...$125 or so. Almost nobody uses electric heat. I don't think they make numbers high enough to document electric costs for an electric heated home here.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Stonebr
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:19 am
Location: Maine

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Stonebr »

btenny wrote:New England is too far north and too cloudy and stormy to get enough sun to make solar electric work well. So no one that I know of sells the panels or installs them there. Plus solar works the best in summer when New Englanders don't need much energy. You guys need lots of energy in the winter for heating when the sun is very low in the sky and only shines for 6 hours a day. So not much energy.
This is a really amusing post. Thank you. 8-)

Now you know of at least one installer:
http://www.mooseheadpowersystems.com

As for the too far north comment, my latitude here in Portland, Maine is the same as Avignon in the lovely south of France. While we don't get the beautiful light of Provence, I can assure you that the sun shines here. Nearly every street in Portland has a house with either a PV or a Solar HW array, or both. One is going up on the house two doors down from me as I sit here typing.

Previously we lived in Massachusetts and I noticed a few years ago that there were three houses in our neighborhood with solar HW systems from the 1970s. All three were junked over a 5 year period and all three were replaced with new systems, although one of the owners switched to PV. That tells me that even the clunky old technology from 30 years ago works well enough in New England that the owners came back for more.
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear
Stonebr
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:19 am
Location: Maine

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Stonebr »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:As mentioned, electricity is far more expensive in New England than it is almost anywhere (except maybe Hawaii). My 2800 square foot air conditioned house summer monthly electric bill is always over $300. Winter...$125 or so. Almost nobody uses electric heat. I don't think they make numbers high enough to document electric costs for an electric heated home here.
Actually, air source heat pumps are the big new thing in Maine. Drive around the far northern Aroostook County and you see them everywhere. You are right that electric resistance heat is uncommon, but solar PV combined with an ASHP is feasible.
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear
Iorek
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:38 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Iorek »

CT has some great solar incentives too.
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by btenny »

Well with the federal rebate and various Mass rebates paying everyone over 50-60% of the costs of panels I guess there are lots of installers. But I suggest these solar panels will not really pay for themselves in less than 15 years due to snow issues. That is not an investment I want to make. Please look at the performance when its snows. See here.

http://sustainability.williams.edu/file ... ams_pv.pdf
http://www.cnet.com/news/winter-snow-an ... -forecast/

Do the installers show you the output of the solar systems if you don't remove the snow? Are you guys really willing to add snow removal from the solar panels to your winter chore list? Remember last winter with all the snow?

Just thinking...
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

btenny wrote:New England is too far north and too cloudy and stormy to get enough sun to make solar electric work well. So no one that I know of sells the panels or installs them there. Plus solar works the best in summer when New Englanders don't need much energy. You guys need lots of energy in the winter for heating when the sun is very low in the sky and only shines for 6 hours a day. So not much energy.
:D :D :D :D :D

No energy in the summer. I wonder what was cooling my house when it was ninety degrees out today.

A little grubbing around shows at least 9 solar panel sellers/installers in Rhode Island.
Stonebr
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:19 am
Location: Maine

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Stonebr »

btenny wrote: D Remember last winter with all the snow?

Just thinking...
I was concerned about this too. Last few years I've been considering buying solar, so I walked around the neighborhood last winter. Solar panels are mounted on the roof, tilted at an angle. They are also black. So what happened to my neighbors' solar panels is that snow covered them for the day of the storm, then when the sun came out all the snow slid off almost immediately. I was surprised. Nobody ever had to get up there with a shovel and clear them off. I've also heard that (assuming proper installation) your roof will last longer with panels shading the shingles.

There are some concerns that PVs lose performance as temperatures rise. So using PV in Arizona or Saudi Arabia, even with all that sunshine, would produce less than rated output at high enough temperatures. New England gets some hot weather, but nothing like those places.

Personally, I have ruled out solar PV for now. We just don't use much power, practicing basic good habits like turning things off when not in use. As a result our consumption is about 2600 kWh per year, and there is lower hanging fruit when it comes to saving on home energy.
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear
User avatar
wshang
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:40 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by wshang »

The payback for your solar depends upon your state.

http://sroeco.com/solar/top-10-solar-pa ... tates-1216

Although New York used to rank even higher, we are now 6th with a projected 8 year payback.
http://solarenergy.net/News/2013080701- ... top-solar/

Part of this is thanks to my neighbors living in other states, in my own state and in my own county; (Thank you for the tax rebates and refunds!)

I look at it from an investment standpoint. Presuming a 8 year payback, that is far better than any predictable investment I know (9% compounded ROI). The returns are tax free and go to reducing the need from free cashflow.

At this point in time, we are enjoying an overproduction of solar PV panels from China. Take a look at the ETF PBW, not doing too well. Nonfinancial considerations include taking load off the grid and increasing independent power resources in the event of a blackout.
User avatar
Uncle Pennybags
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:05 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Uncle Pennybags »

[off topic comment deleted by admin alex]
Valuethinker
Posts: 49027
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Valuethinker »

Stonebr wrote:
Personally, I have ruled out solar PV for now. We just don't use much power, practicing basic good habits like turning things off when not in use. As a result our consumption is about 2600 kWh per year, and there is lower hanging fruit when it comes to saving on home energy.
Impressive. We use more than that and we are a 2 person household in England with gas heat and hot water and no air conditioning.

The average American home uses more than 10,000 kwhr pa (the average UK just under 4,000) but much of that is air conditioning/ heat pumps.
User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by just frank »

btenny wrote: Do the installers show you the output of the solar systems if you don't remove the snow? Are you guys really willing to add snow removal from the solar panels to your winter chore list? Remember last winter with all the snow?

Just thinking...
New England has a decent solar resource (hours of full sun per year), MA gets 25% less than Arizona, but it has all of Northern Europe and the UK beat easily.

There is a big seasonal variation....winters are often very cloudy, so most of the sun hours are in the other three seasons. So if you had snow on your panels for 3 mos, Dec-Feb, you would not lose 25%, but more like 10%.
Last edited by just frank on Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49027
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Valuethinker »

One thing I believe I have learned correctly is that if there is any possible shading issue, micro inverters will give you much higher average output?

Ie shade over one part of the array, without a microinverter, will lower the output for *all* the panels.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49027
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Valuethinker »

just frank wrote:
btenny wrote: Do the installers show you the output of the solar systems if you don't remove the snow? Are you guys really willing to add snow removal from the solar panels to your winter chore list? Remember last winter with all the snow?

Just thinking...
New England has a decent solar resource (hours of full sun per year), MA gets 25% less than Arizona, but it has all of Northern Europe and the UK beat easily.

There is a big seasonal variation....winters are often very cloudy, so most of the sun hours are in the other three months. So if you had snow on your panels for 3 mos, Dec-Feb, you would not lose 25%, but more like 10%.
Southern UK, south facing panel, you get about 850 kwhr pa per peak kw capacity.

We are at 51 degrees N in London. Winnipeg MAN is 49 degrees N. That's not obvious unless you look closely ;-).
Michread
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:50 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Michread »

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Initially we calculated 5 yrs or less pay back; now one year later we est. ~ 4 yrs or less payback
4. Con - taking taxable savings out of Vanguard to pay for it
Pro- all those listed on renewable energy websites; including SRECTrade checks that we receive each quarter for our excess solar sold
Early retirement 2018
Michread
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:50 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Michread »

btenny wrote:Well with the federal rebate and various Mass rebates paying everyone over 50-60% of the costs of panels I guess there are lots of installers. But I suggest these solar panels will not really pay for themselves in less than 15 years due to snow issues. That is not an investment I want to make. Please look at the performance when its snows. See here.

http://sustainability.williams.edu/file ... ams_pv.pdf
http://www.cnet.com/news/winter-snow-an ... -forecast/

Do the installers show you the output of the solar systems if you don't remove the snow? Are you guys really willing to add snow removal from the solar panels to your winter chore list? Remember last winter with all the snow?

Just thinking...
Maybe you should stick to what you know without speculating about what you believe without facts.

In my region, we had the second highest amt of snow in U.S. this past winter that did NOT melt away quickly, and we are still having a great solar production year! We predict that we will reach payback in about 4 yrs (~3 yrs to go).

(Our ipad app tracks our solar production. We can view it daily, monthly, quarterly and yearly.)
Early retirement 2018
autonomy
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:22 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by autonomy »

I've seen a TON of solar panels in MA, especially out west. There are solar arrays now in MassPike in Natick, exit 13. I've seen farms turned into solar arrays in the Pioneer Valley. Someone I know installed got panels installed on their roof for free - there are companies out there who will basically use your roof as an installation point. They bring in the panels, install them, and will pay your electric bill all at no cost. I guess they make money by having the electric company pay them. Honestly, it sounds too good to be true, we'll see how it works out.

Oh, and electricity has pretty much doubled in cost over here. Yes, we absolutely need electricity in the summer - it's gotten into the mid-90s a few times this week.
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by btenny »

Well guys everything I said stands. You need more power in the cold winter months and solar will not provide that. Yes you can install solar "right now" and make the numbers work. See below.

http://atomicinsights.com/power-new-eng ... g-rapidly/
http://www.wbur.org/2015/03/10/natural-gas-pipelines
http://www.boston.com/real-estate/news/ ... LtAxu.dpbs

But soon I suspect the winter electric prices are going to go up even more and the utilities are going to start charging all you solar guys for a grid hookup. Then we will see if your solar panels pay for themselves when your winter bill is way more $$ for electricity.

By the way, I worked in the solar industry for 2 years in the 1980s and have a MSEE. So yes I do know the details and issues. Yes my data is old but without those crazy high subsidies those panels you are installing would not pencil out.

I think your money would be better spent on better home insulation and better light bulbs and so forth. Or maybe a good sized generator.

Good Luck.


.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18499
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I took a walk at lunchtime and headed to the Cisco campus (boxborough, ma) and they have just erected about 2 acres of pv panels over an open parking lot. They are high enough to still park vehicles under them. These things are popping up all over metrowest.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

btenny wrote: By the way, I worked in the solar industry for 2 years in the 1980s and have a MSEE.
I am so impressed. And nothing has changed in 30 years, of course.
User avatar
SmileyFace
Posts: 9184
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by SmileyFace »

dolphinsaremammals wrote:
btenny wrote: By the way, I worked in the solar industry for 2 years in the 1980s and have a MSEE.
I am so impressed. And nothing has changed in 30 years, of course.
...and if the MSEE goes back that far you likely learned about vacuum tubes and FORTRAN programming.

btenny - did you read the responses? We don't need electricity in the winter - natural gas powers my furnace, hot water, clothes dryer, stove.....the summer with AC and pool pump are the problem which is why many folks in New England are going solar.
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by btenny »

Rude personal insults are really wonderful and appreciated on this board. They show your intelligence about the topic and how you are unwilling to listen to opposing views.

PS. I was building LSI chips before you existed and have the patents to prove it. How many do you have?
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

btenny wrote:Rude personal insults are really wonderful and appreciated on this board. They show your intelligence about the topic and how you are unwilling to listen to opposing views.

PS. I was building LSI chips before you existed and have the patents to prove it. How many do you have?
I sincerely doubt you were doing anything before I was born. I have zero patents, but when I talk, I make sure I have facts not guesses to back up my opinions. You have probably set a record in this thread for making erroneous guesses presented as fact.
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by btenny »

Do you use lights in the winter? I bet since you are so smart your home still uses NG Lights? Does your NG heater use a air blower and electric starter? Does your furnace have electric interlocks? Does your home have electric garage door opener? How about that dishwasher? How about that computer you are typing on or that phone you are talking on? No electricity means not much happens.

Did you guys even read the papers I attached about the Mass electric utility. They cannot get enough natural gas to the utility power plants to keep the generators running in the winter. They shut off the coal electric plants. That is why the electric prices are so crazy high in the winter. So you guy will pay even higher winter electric rates next year and soon I suspect you will also pay a grid fee. Those will increase your payback period on your solar systems. Yes with crazy rebates you are getting solar is still be a good deal today. But your electric bills will go up a lot and yes you need electric in the winter.
User avatar
just frank
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:13 pm
Location: Philly Metro

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by just frank »

Ah well. Most regions including NE still have peak electric demand days (which are the highest cost) on hot summer days. Many places until recently had a winter discount rate. The NG pipeline problem is a one-off issue that will get fixed....PA has a ton of surplus gas ready for delivery.

At any rate, the future is always uncertain, but with existing fed and MA incentives and a roof with low shading, PV does make decent returns, but the OP needs to shop around. I personally would include at least a 5% annual depreciation in the return calculation, b/c unlike a bond, the original investment principal is never returned and is illiquid.

I do believe that when solar penetration reaches ~10% of the regional grid, it is likely that grid-tie arrangements may change, and to become less favorable (due to excess solar during the day, killing the price). Odds are that will take 10 years or more in NE.
LoveMyDog
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:14 am

Re: solar energy in new england

Post by LoveMyDog »

http://256.com/solar/

Possibly the most detailed real life information you can get.
Post Reply