Home landscaping dilemma
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Home landscaping dilemma
Hello Bogleheads,
After moving into our new build, we are facing a landscaping dilemma.
House: $403k purchase price ($412k appraised), 20% down on a 30 yr 3.625% conventional, plan to stay here 10-15+ years
Household income: $235k salary (but average around $300k with bonuses/RSUs)
Retirement contributions: Both maxing out 401k, backdoor Roth w/after-tax 401k
Emergency fund: Over 1 year
Debt: None
I budgeted 10% of the home value (~$40k) for the pool and landscaping having read that is a good rule of thumb. Now that we have finalized a pool design and received a landscaping bid, our ideal backyard is in the range of $50-55k. We have cash available for the entire amount without touching the emergency fund.
We have seen our neighbor’s yards and they are using comparable higher end materials. From the bids I’ve received, they’re probably spending in the same range for their pools/yards (pools are almost mandatory here in AZ).
So Bogleheads, what would you do? Start trimming back (acrylic vs. travertine decking, smaller water feature on the pool, etc.) or spend the money?
Thanks,
confusedinaz
After moving into our new build, we are facing a landscaping dilemma.
House: $403k purchase price ($412k appraised), 20% down on a 30 yr 3.625% conventional, plan to stay here 10-15+ years
Household income: $235k salary (but average around $300k with bonuses/RSUs)
Retirement contributions: Both maxing out 401k, backdoor Roth w/after-tax 401k
Emergency fund: Over 1 year
Debt: None
I budgeted 10% of the home value (~$40k) for the pool and landscaping having read that is a good rule of thumb. Now that we have finalized a pool design and received a landscaping bid, our ideal backyard is in the range of $50-55k. We have cash available for the entire amount without touching the emergency fund.
We have seen our neighbor’s yards and they are using comparable higher end materials. From the bids I’ve received, they’re probably spending in the same range for their pools/yards (pools are almost mandatory here in AZ).
So Bogleheads, what would you do? Start trimming back (acrylic vs. travertine decking, smaller water feature on the pool, etc.) or spend the money?
Thanks,
confusedinaz
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Why do you live in Arizona? I doubt it is so you can have a pool (or a lawn)!
Have you considered the environment and ecology of the area? I would seriously considered native plants. They are less upkeep than "foreign" plants. And birds/insects/reptiles in your area will thank you for providing them food and shelter. That is what we are doing in Southern California. We would do it even if there wasn't a drought here.
Do you have access to Sunset magazine (say, in a library)? Flip through some back issues to get some professional-looking landscape ideas, if you are interested.
Have you considered the environment and ecology of the area? I would seriously considered native plants. They are less upkeep than "foreign" plants. And birds/insects/reptiles in your area will thank you for providing them food and shelter. That is what we are doing in Southern California. We would do it even if there wasn't a drought here.
Do you have access to Sunset magazine (say, in a library)? Flip through some back issues to get some professional-looking landscape ideas, if you are interested.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
> Why do you live in Arizona? I doubt it is so you can have a pool (or a lawn).
Pools make a great deal of sense in Arizona. Lawns do not. However a good landscaping job with desert-tolerant plants and hardscape still costs significant $.
Pools make a great deal of sense in Arizona. Lawns do not. However a good landscaping job with desert-tolerant plants and hardscape still costs significant $.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Go for the ideal backyard if you will enjoy it and can afford it. It's only $10-15k extra.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
+1.mhc wrote:Go for the ideal backyard if you will enjoy it and can afford it. It's only $10-15k extra.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
+2Ged wrote:+1.mhc wrote:Go for the ideal backyard if you will enjoy it and can afford it. It's only $10-15k extra.
We spent extra on our kitchen reno and enjoy it every single day.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
If you can afford the money and want quality, and you think the bid is legit, I would pay it.
Another vote though for native plants and xeriscaping. Native butterflies and birds really need native plants. Make amends for building a house where their home used to be...
Another vote though for native plants and xeriscaping. Native butterflies and birds really need native plants. Make amends for building a house where their home used to be...
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Hi Confusedinaz,
If you have the cash, go for it. IMHO, cutting corners on a custom project is a losing proposition; you will lose significant satisfaction while not achieving significant savings.
Best,
Sleepy
+1PaddyMac wrote:If you can afford the money and want quality, and you think the bid is legit, I would pay it.
If you have the cash, go for it. IMHO, cutting corners on a custom project is a losing proposition; you will lose significant satisfaction while not achieving significant savings.
Best,
Sleepy
- FrugalInvestor
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
I agree. You will be living with this everyday for 10-15 years. Put in something you will enjoy looking at, using and sharing. Also, make sure that the contractor(s) you choose does quality work so you don't end up with a maintenance headache.PaddyMac wrote:If you can afford the money and want quality, and you think the bid is legit, I would pay it.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
+1PaddyMac wrote:If you can afford the money and want quality, and you think the bid is legit, I would pay it.
Another vote though for native plants and xeriscaping. Native butterflies and birds really need native plants. Make amends for building a house where their home used to be...
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Thanks to everyone for your responses. You've definitely helped sway me to spend the money to get what we want.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
I'd recommend getting what you want too. That seems like a great price for a complete landscape with a pool!
Only caution from this pool owner living in a dry state (CA) is to think twice about a pool water feature. Don't know what you had in mind, but some can be total water wasters and energy hogs.
Also if I could do over I would have designed for a retractable pool cover. Honestly, I hate putting the pool cover on because I want to see it even if not using it, but leaving it off wastes so much water lost to evaporation. Ours is one of those bubble wrap-like covers and using it cuts evaporation and water use immensely, but a sleek retractable would be more attractive.
Go with a drought tolerant landscape suitable for your climate and water saving irrigation. Worth every penny and will save you on do-overs in the future.
Only caution from this pool owner living in a dry state (CA) is to think twice about a pool water feature. Don't know what you had in mind, but some can be total water wasters and energy hogs.
Also if I could do over I would have designed for a retractable pool cover. Honestly, I hate putting the pool cover on because I want to see it even if not using it, but leaving it off wastes so much water lost to evaporation. Ours is one of those bubble wrap-like covers and using it cuts evaporation and water use immensely, but a sleek retractable would be more attractive.
Go with a drought tolerant landscape suitable for your climate and water saving irrigation. Worth every penny and will save you on do-overs in the future.
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- Location: Michigan
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Not sure what the laws are in Arizona, but please make sure you get a lien release from the contractor you hire for the pool before giving him any final payments for work done. I was in the wholesale pool supply business and had to sue several homeowners for materials incorporated into their properties that the contractor did not pay me for. I always felt awful having to take it that far, but that is the law. If the contractor does not pay the supplier, the supplier can come after you for the debt, so make sure you get a release from the suppliers. It is common industry practice with reputable contractors and suppliers, so don't feel like you are being difficult.
That being said, pools are a hole in the backyard where you throw your money, but they are enjoyable. $50-55k iS about the going rate for a pool, deck, and landscaping from a reputable contractor. Get what you want and don't worry about spending a little more to get it. Make sure you get energy efficient pumps. They will pay for themselves in a year or 2 and save you big $ down the line in energy costs when you consider they run 8 hours a day.
That being said, pools are a hole in the backyard where you throw your money, but they are enjoyable. $50-55k iS about the going rate for a pool, deck, and landscaping from a reputable contractor. Get what you want and don't worry about spending a little more to get it. Make sure you get energy efficient pumps. They will pay for themselves in a year or 2 and save you big $ down the line in energy costs when you consider they run 8 hours a day.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Think aboout this for a second, how is your initial estimate of $40k anything other than arbitrary? Does this mean that the very modest homes in my area selling for $1 million should spend $100k on this? Forget about that $40k number, it is essentially irrelevant. If you budgeted that, then you did a poor job of budgeting. No big deal, lesson learned. The number for what you want is $50k - $55k. Decide whether that is a worthwhile investment for you, whether you can afford it and act accordingly.confusedinaz wrote:I budgeted 10% of the home value (~$40k) for the pool and landscaping having read that is a good rule of thumb.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Get some landscaping done. A nice back yard is a must IMO. Get one that you will love and spend time enjoying. As you know AZ is wonderful outside a good part of the year. Do you have kids and how old? This is the key issue IMO in deciding how and what to include in the landscaping plan. Kids love pools and will use them a ton. Adults not so much. I am also a Arizona guy and love the desert. I have lived there 60 years and had three homes with pools. But when my kids left I got rid of the pool. My in laws bought a new home with a pool and are now sorry due to high costs and little use. My current next door neighbor has a wonderful yard with a big water feature and pond. No pool. It is really nice out there but less expensive than a pool. I have medium sized water fountain that the birds love and can be drained when we are not home. It costs almost nothing to run. No chemicals and minutes to set up and clean and fill with water. Make sure you really want a pool.
Now about the landscaping. Are you getting the front and back yards both done in one plan? Do a detailed in depth set down review with the landscaper of the plants and trees that are planned. Are the plants all draught tolerant? Are you putting in mostly rock scape and a few plants or some grass in the back yard? Grass needs year round weekly care if you use nice to walk on grass like Tiff or BobSod. I recommend St Augustine if you want some green in the yard. I have it in my yard. It is very abuse tolerant and sort of stays green all year round and only needs cutting every two weeks if you don't go crazy with water and fertilizer. Does the plan include good design and outdoor areas for cooking (BBQ ) and 2-3 setting areas? Lots of hardscape? Do the patios have shaded areas and associated big umbrellas and awnings even when the sun in low late in the day? Do you need everything they are proposing? Many times landscapers put in too many plants because they make money on the quantity. Do you have the right number of trees around your pool? Trees and plants are pretty but can be messy and make taking care of a pool really hard by dropping lots of leaves. Are there any cactus around your pool? Kid and adults run into them. I did some palm trees and flower gardens near my pool. Watch out for tree size. They grow big over time. Do not plant too near you house or neighbors yard.
About the pool. Don't go too big in size. The bigger the pool the bigger cost to build and own. More water more chemicals etc.. Do you want a diving pool or just a shallow play pool? Play pools are fun for kids (and adults) but have issue with people jumping into them. They also use less water and chemicals and cost less I suspect. But they may have other issues. I don't know. All my pools were diving pools with diving boards. All my pools had old fashioned cream colored Kool Deck around the pool. It stayed nice for decades and was nice to walk on. I don't know about newer stuff. Get a big area of decking attached to the patio and pool for parties and play and to make and big outdoor room.
About that water feature. My in laws and my next door neighbor both have one that is never used and stained with calcium. It also costs a ton extra to run according to them. It costs a ton to build and makes big part of the pool near the diving board unusable. With Arizona hard water any thing but a white waterfall will get crazy stained calcium white in 1-2 years and look bad. Are you sure this is necessary? Big pot fountains are easier to maintain and are nice looking and give the birds a drink and put out a nice bubbling sound. Plus if you decide the looks are not right you can change it in a few years for little money.
Good Luck.
Now about the landscaping. Are you getting the front and back yards both done in one plan? Do a detailed in depth set down review with the landscaper of the plants and trees that are planned. Are the plants all draught tolerant? Are you putting in mostly rock scape and a few plants or some grass in the back yard? Grass needs year round weekly care if you use nice to walk on grass like Tiff or BobSod. I recommend St Augustine if you want some green in the yard. I have it in my yard. It is very abuse tolerant and sort of stays green all year round and only needs cutting every two weeks if you don't go crazy with water and fertilizer. Does the plan include good design and outdoor areas for cooking (BBQ ) and 2-3 setting areas? Lots of hardscape? Do the patios have shaded areas and associated big umbrellas and awnings even when the sun in low late in the day? Do you need everything they are proposing? Many times landscapers put in too many plants because they make money on the quantity. Do you have the right number of trees around your pool? Trees and plants are pretty but can be messy and make taking care of a pool really hard by dropping lots of leaves. Are there any cactus around your pool? Kid and adults run into them. I did some palm trees and flower gardens near my pool. Watch out for tree size. They grow big over time. Do not plant too near you house or neighbors yard.
About the pool. Don't go too big in size. The bigger the pool the bigger cost to build and own. More water more chemicals etc.. Do you want a diving pool or just a shallow play pool? Play pools are fun for kids (and adults) but have issue with people jumping into them. They also use less water and chemicals and cost less I suspect. But they may have other issues. I don't know. All my pools were diving pools with diving boards. All my pools had old fashioned cream colored Kool Deck around the pool. It stayed nice for decades and was nice to walk on. I don't know about newer stuff. Get a big area of decking attached to the patio and pool for parties and play and to make and big outdoor room.
About that water feature. My in laws and my next door neighbor both have one that is never used and stained with calcium. It also costs a ton extra to run according to them. It costs a ton to build and makes big part of the pool near the diving board unusable. With Arizona hard water any thing but a white waterfall will get crazy stained calcium white in 1-2 years and look bad. Are you sure this is necessary? Big pot fountains are easier to maintain and are nice looking and give the birds a drink and put out a nice bubbling sound. Plus if you decide the looks are not right you can change it in a few years for little money.
Good Luck.
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
The water feature is actually a decent size grotto. Our previous home had a small waterfall which we used quite a bit, but I really like the idea of having something a bit more usable. However, it is also one of the areas that we could easily cut cost.island wrote:I'd recommend getting what you want too. That seems like a great price for a complete landscape with a pool!
Only caution from this pool owner living in a dry state (CA) is to think twice about a pool water feature. Don't know what you had in mind, but some can be total water wasters and energy hogs.
Most people don't use pool covers here in AZ. Solar blankets tend to be more popular, but it's difficult with a free form pool (which is what we have designed). I'm considering the circular type that you can leave on the pool especially during the first part of the season. I'm afraid it might be a pain like you mentioned though.island wrote: Also if I could do over I would have designed for a retractable pool cover. Honestly, I hate putting the pool cover on because I want to see it even if not using it, but leaving it off wastes so much water lost to evaporation. Ours is one of those bubble wrap-like covers and using it cuts evaporation and water use immensely, but a sleek retractable would be more attractive.
Go with a drought tolerant landscape suitable for your climate and water saving irrigation. Worth every penny and will save you on do-overs in the future.
Thanks for the tips.
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
I'll definitely keep this in mind. We're working with a cost plus builder and I'll most likely pay his subs directly, but will ask them all for a lien release.Dee Stroir wrote:Not sure what the laws are in Arizona, but please make sure you get a lien release from the contractor you hire for the pool before giving him any final payments for work done. I was in the wholesale pool supply business and had to sue several homeowners for materials incorporated into their properties that the contractor did not pay me for. I always felt awful having to take it that far, but that is the law. If the contractor does not pay the supplier, the supplier can come after you for the debt, so make sure you get a release from the suppliers. It is common industry practice with reputable contractors and suppliers, so don't feel like you are being difficult.
Yeah, our previous home of 10 years had a pool. I maintained it myself and plan to do the same this time around, but they're definitely not the cheapest thing to own.Dee Stroir wrote: That being said, pools are a hole in the backyard where you throw your money, but they are enjoyable. $50-55k iS about the going rate for a pool, deck, and landscaping from a reputable contractor. Get what you want and don't worry about spending a little more to get it. Make sure you get energy efficient pumps. They will pay for themselves in a year or 2 and save you big $ down the line in energy costs when you consider they run 8 hours a day.
We did include a variable speed pump as they seem to be pretty standard these days.
Thanks for your input.
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
You're totally correct. The 10% is just an arbitrary rule of thumb that I found online. This house is our first new build and I'm just trying to prevent overimproving/overspending. Good point though.swaption wrote:Think aboout this for a second, how is your initial estimate of $40k anything other than arbitrary? Does this mean that the very modest homes in my area selling for $1 million should spend $100k on this? Forget about that $40k number, it is essentially irrelevant. If you budgeted that, then you did a poor job of budgeting. No big deal, lesson learned. The number for what you want is $50k - $55k. Decide whether that is a worthwhile investment for you, whether you can afford it and act accordingly.confusedinaz wrote:I budgeted 10% of the home value (~$40k) for the pool and landscaping having read that is a good rule of thumb.
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Thanks for your very detailed reply.btenny wrote:Get some landscaping done. A nice back yard is a must IMO. Get one that you will love and spend time enjoying. As you know AZ is wonderful outside a good part of the year. Do you have kids and how old? This is the key issue IMO in deciding how and what to include in the landscaping plan. Kids love pools and will use them a ton. Adults not so much. I am also a Arizona guy and love the desert. I have lived there 60 years and had three homes with pools. But when my kids left I got rid of the pool. My in laws bought a new home with a pool and are now sorry due to high costs and little use. My current next door neighbor has a wonderful yard with a big water feature and pond. No pool. It is really nice out there but less expensive than a pool. I have medium sized water fountain that the birds love and can be drained when we are not home. It costs almost nothing to run. No chemicals and minutes to set up and clean and fill with water. Make sure you really want a pool.
Our previous home had a pool. I enjoyed it quite a bit even when I was single, so it will definitely get used. We also have a two year old who will hopefully enjoy it while growing up. Having a child has definitely influenced the design as we had to position the pool to be fenced in and still provide a play area for him.
I agree that sometimes you're better off without a pool if you don't plan on using it though. If I hadn't already owned one (and miss it very much), I would never even spend the money.
Thanks again.
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
Solar blanket. Yes that's what our bubble wrap cover is called. Thanks.confusedinaz wrote:The water feature is actually a decent size grotto. Our previous home had a small waterfall which we used quite a bit, but I really like the idea of having something a bit more usable. However, it is also one of the areas that we could easily cut cost.island wrote:I'd recommend getting what you want too. That seems like a great price for a complete landscape with a pool!
Only caution from this pool owner living in a dry state (CA) is to think twice about a pool water feature. Don't know what you had in mind, but some can be total water wasters and energy hogs.
Most people don't use pool covers here in AZ. Solar blankets tend to be more popular, but it's difficult with a free form pool (which is what we have designed). I'm considering the circular type that you can leave on the pool especially during the first part of the season. I'm afraid it might be a pain like you mentioned though.island wrote: Also if I could do over I would have designed for a retractable pool cover. Honestly, I hate putting the pool cover on because I want to see it even if not using it, but leaving it off wastes so much water lost to evaporation. Ours is one of those bubble wrap-like covers and using it cuts evaporation and water use immensely, but a sleek retractable would be more attractive.
Go with a drought tolerant landscape suitable for your climate and water saving irrigation. Worth every penny and will save you on do-overs in the future.
Thanks for the tips.
I see more of those too probably because most people I know have free form. Ours is more linear, like a trapezoid. Wanted max length, but not too wide so we could save space. Turned out linear pools are less expensive so that was a great unplanned savings.
With the pool cover we've gone from needing to add water once a week to about once every 6 weeks. Can't argue with that! I didn't care about the cost, just the waste of H2O.
You're not getting pressure to save water in AZ? That's crazy.
- MichaelRpdx
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Re: Home landscaping dilemma
My aunt and uncle filled in their pool. Didn't find it "mandatory" at all. This did not affect the sale price of their house as far as I know.confusedinaz wrote: We have seen our neighbor’s yards and they are using comparable higher end materials. From the bids I’ve received, they’re probably spending in the same range for their pools/yards (pools are almost mandatory here in AZ).
From your described financial situation, I'll add to the go ahead with the project. Your budget was based on a rule of thumb and and the difference is not that great.
Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
Re: Home landscaping dilemma
If you have a plan that you really like you can put in the watering infrastructure without installing all of the improvements to finish it off. The advantage to a phased approach to me is that you get a chance to live there and see your patterns of use and circulation before locking all of your plantings in. Once you sit out watching the sunset for a few months, you might decide to move a tree, walkway, or other feature.
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