VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

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xrvision
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VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by xrvision »

I recently rented a property on VRBO. I believe the place had multiple reviews on VRBO and airbnb when I booked, which was partly why I chose it (although I booked several weeks ago, so I don't remember any details and could have it mixed up with a different property). I communicated with the owner several times via email before booking.

Soon after I arrived to the property, the city's code enforcer arrived and informed us that sublets/vacation rentals were illegal in the town, and that there had been complaints that the property was being used as a vacation rental. I think a neighbor must have seen us arrive and called the authorities. The police came and filed a report, they asked us a few questions about how we booked the place/name of the owner, then they said "have a nice stay" and left. Rest of the stay was uneventful, other than the fact that we were very uncomfortable staying in the home after that.

What is the best way to prevent this situation from happening in the future? I called VRBO after the incident happened, and they told me that they are an advertising site and have no responsibility to ensure the legitimacy of the properties. I don't plan on renting with VRBO again. I have heard that airbnb has similar issues with illegal rentals. Is there any way to make sure that a property that I rent is legit? Renting a house is more convenient than a hotel for my young family when we travel. Are there any vacation rental sites that actually check this before listing a property?

Thanks!
southbay
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by southbay »

where I live, there are several cities that ban rentals less than 30 days - essentially short-term vacation rentals are banned. people still rent their places out against this rule.

in the future you might check with the city you are planning to visit to see if they even allow it. it's really not the fault of vrbo or airbnb.
curmudgeon
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by curmudgeon »

I've started leaning more towards rentals through agencies with an actual physical office in the location I am visiting. They may be advertised on VRBO or airbnb, but they also typically have their own website and list a license/tax id. It may cost a little more, and it is still not an absolute guarantee, but it does give more confidence.
kolea
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by kolea »

Vacation rental is a big issue where I live also and the state is really cracking down. I noticed that houses that are legit (which means they are paying a bunch of tax to the state) will state their license # with the ad. You should assume that any desirable city to rent in will have regulations about vacation rentals and when you find a place you like on VRBO, just ask the owner if it is a legal rental.
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adamthesmythe
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by adamthesmythe »

> in the future you might check with the city you are planning to visit to see if they even allow it.

I suppose this might help. My impression is that airbnb, etc. exist in part to facilitate illegal rentals, so I think they bear some of the responsibility.

I live in one of the towns with a 30 day rule, which is regularly flaunted.
WhyNotUs
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by WhyNotUs »

Many popular areas will have a permit or license number that they will issue. You can ask if they have one and then look it up with the local jurisdiction. Some places only require a business license (to make sure they pay taxes), other may not regulate the uses. If it is a resort area, it is more likely regulated.

This is a big issue in Hawaii and one is wise to check there as there have been problems with people showing up for rentals only to learn that it has been shut down and the owner is not returning deposits.

There are lots of legitimate vrbos but the minority is creating problems for all. Glad you got to stay for the rest of your trip.
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jebmke
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by jebmke »

adamthesmythe wrote:I live in one of the towns with a 30 day rule, which is regularly flaunted.
Near me there is a small waterfront village that has a 30 day rule. It isn't flaunted much because if they catch you there is a substantial fine for both the tenant and the landlord. Word travels fast.
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sailfish2
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by sailfish2 »

curmudgeon wrote:I've started leaning more towards rentals through agencies with an actual physical office in the location I am visiting. They may be advertised on VRBO or airbnb, but they also typically have their own website and list a license/tax id. It may cost a little more, and it is still not an absolute guarantee, but it does give more confidence.
I like this option as well, and in fact we just did this last week.

The property was advertised on VRBO, but there is a realty manager for the place, right on the condo premises. We did not have any issues, but if we had, the on premises staff would have handled it ASAP (in fact, our neighbor in the condo had their AC unit conk out, and the property manager got it fixed quickly).

I agree with contacting the city zoning or code enforcement department ahead of booking.
4nursebee
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by 4nursebee »

In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.
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denovo
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by denovo »

4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
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Fixmen
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by Fixmen »

I live in a ski town. For the last few years, after the Christmas holiday there is always a short newspaper story or item in the police blotter about a family that's been duped on their rental. Someone goes on VBRO, Airbnb, etc copies all the info and creates a fraudulent listing on Craigslist for a house they don't own or have any relation to. Once they take the renters payment and they're never heard from again. The poor renters show up at the house on Christmas eve to find out the place is full and that the homeowners have no knowledge of any Craigslist posting. I cannot imagine a worse way to start your vacation.
bayview
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by bayview »

Our next door neighbor rents out part of his house through airbnb (rentals under 30 days are illegal here), and it's a huge annoyance. In, out, in, out, cars everywhere. He pretends that these are all friends visiting, including when he's out of the country for a few weeks. One poor lady locked herself out (cell phone inside) and came over to borrow our phone, which is pretty much when we put it all together. I'm astonished how blatant it is on his airbnb site: full address, photo of owner with first name, on and on. I can mostly grin and bear it, but we're listing our house in a few weeks, and this had better not interfere with a sale. We could bust him easily, but at this point we aren't interested in stirring anything up.

Another thing that people don't think about with airbnb, etc: it tends to reduce the amount of rental stock in a given area, driving up rental prices for those who are actually looking for a home. (Although I would think that this is more relevant with people who rent out an entire property, rather than the spare bedroom upstairs.) Housing is incredibly expensive here, compared to the rest of the state, and renting is even more expensive than owning.

At any rate, though, I don't think renters should carry the burden of vetting these properties, or refuse to talk to the police (good grief.) This is the owner's issue.
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BahamaMan
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by BahamaMan »

xrvision wrote:I recently rented a property on VRBO. I believe the place had multiple reviews on VRBO and airbnb when I booked, which was partly why I chose it (although I booked several weeks ago, so I don't remember any details and could have it mixed up with a different property). I communicated with the owner several times via email before booking.

Soon after I arrived to the property, the city's code enforcer arrived and informed us that sublets/vacation rentals were illegal in the town, and that there had been complaints that the property was being used as a vacation rental. I think a neighbor must have seen us arrive and called the authorities. The police came and filed a report, they asked us a few questions about how we booked the place/name of the owner, then they said "have a nice stay" and left. Rest of the stay was uneventful, other than the fact that we were very uncomfortable staying in the home after that.

What is the best way to prevent this situation from happening in the future? I called VRBO after the incident happened, and they told me that they are an advertising site and have no responsibility to ensure the legitimacy of the properties. I don't plan on renting with VRBO again. I have heard that airbnb has similar issues with illegal rentals. Is there any way to make sure that a property that I rent is legit? Renting a house is more convenient than a hotel for my young family when we travel. Are there any vacation rental sites that actually check this before listing a property?

Thanks!
I have rented with VRBO many times and have never experienced what you did. This has nothing to do with VRBO, but everything to do with 'Life in General'. There are always shady people doing shady things. As you said, your stay was uneventful except for the initial experience. There are all sorts of things that can happen when you venture out into the world, and nothing can protect you from everything.

Unfortunately this is far far the worst that can happen to you when traveling. I won't go into details, but use your imagination. Is it safer to just stay home and not travel? Probably.
Last edited by BahamaMan on Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jabberwockOG
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by jabberwockOG »

Company like VRBO and airbnb (actually same company) exist solely to facilitate the add space and the transaction but they do virtually nothing to vet the actual rental. The plain truth is that the company could not possibly track and vet the advertised rental properties given the literally tens of thousands of properties worldwide that are advertised.

Two things to be careful about - 1) as many as 10% of properties advertised at any one time are complete frauds. Fraudulent ads are put up to take your down payment and disappear. So before you send or wire any down payment make sure you talk to the owner and verify a)that the property actually exists and b) that it is actually theirs to rent. 2) Less catastrophic is before you send down payment ask the owner to verify/confirm in writing back to you that he has a legal rental that is zoned appropriately. Print that confirmation email from the owner and bring it with you in case anyone questions you when you are staying at the property.
jebmke
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by jebmke »

jabberwock wrote:Company like VRBO and airbnb (actually same company) exist solely to facilitate the add space and the transaction but they do virtually nothing to vet the actual rental. The plain truth is that the company could not possibly track and vet the advertised rental properties given the literally tens of thousands of properties worldwide that are advertised.

Two things to be careful about - 1) as many as 10% of properties advertised at any one time are complete frauds. Fraudulent ads are put up to take your down payment and disappear. So before you send or wire any down payment make sure you talk to the owner and verify a)that the property actually exists and b) that it is actually theirs to rent. 2) Less catastrophic is before you send down payment ask the owner to verify/confirm in writing back to you that he has a legal rental that is zoned appropriately. Print that confirmation email from the owner and bring it with you in case anyone questions you when you are staying at the property.
So basically all they do is run a website. What do they get for that -- like maybe .5%?
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ResearchMed
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by ResearchMed »

jabberwock wrote:Company like VRBO and airbnb (actually same company) exist solely to facilitate the add space and the transaction but they do virtually nothing to vet the actual rental. The plain truth is that the company could not possibly track and vet the rental properties given the literally tens of thousands of properties advertised.

Two things to be careful about - 1) as many as 10% of properties advertised at any one time are complete frauds. Fraudulent ads are put up to take your down payment and disappear. So before you send or wire any down payment make sure you talk to the owner and verify a)that the property actually exists and b) that it is actually theirs to rent. 2) Less catastrophic is before you send down payment ask the owner to verify/confirm in writing back to you that he has a legal rental that is zoned appropriately. Print that confirmation email from the owner and bring it with you in case anyone questions you when you are staying at the property.
Regarding the truly "fraudulent" ads (meaning the properties don't exist, or the particular ad is placed by someone who is not authorized to accept rentals, etc.), the safest thing, bottom line, is NOT to send cash (or wire money, etc.), but to use a major charge card.

This won't absolutely guarantee that the rental is "real".
However, on the off chance that there is any funny business, at least you will get your money back.
(No, this doesn't help quite so much if you've arrived with extended family gathered from around the country, and find that the place doesn't exist, or there are others already comfortably settled in, but it's better than losing the money, too.)

More importantly, it is probably far less likely that a scammer will be accepting payment via major charge card, and that's probably one of the main reasons to use one, especially if you have any questions about the validity of the ad.

(Similarly, a place that is in gross disrepair or is otherwise "not as advertised" is also probably less likely to be one where a major charge card is used, for similar reasons.)

Another important suggestion is to SPEAK with the owner/manager, and not to rely upon online communication only.

We own vacation rental properties (well, only one remains, and we are in the process of selling that one, too, having established a good business revenue stream) and we'd never dream of allowing rental guests with whom we have never spoken.

Most of our rental guests realize that they are interviewing us when we speak.
Some probably don't realize that we are also interviewing *them*, before allowing them into our property.
A lot of damage could be done that far exceeds any security deposit, and we don't want the aggravation of dealing with that...
We've been very fortunate... after the very first renter sort of trashed the place, and we learned VERY quickly to vet prospective rental guests a lot more carefully.
Everyone else, over the past several years, has worked out very well, and we get many repeat guests now.

We've also now been on the "renter' side of things through VRBO a few times, and had good experiences, based primarily upon careful discussions with the owners before making any definite plans... and using a major charge card.

RM
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gardemanger
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by gardemanger »

FLOUT. Not flaunt. Consult your dictionaries.
shawcroft
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by shawcroft »

4nursebee wrote: In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.
4Nursebee: Your thought intrigues me. Could you expand on your this a bit?
Thanks,
Shawcroft
4nursebee
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by 4nursebee »

denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th

Really?

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


For more info, go to the great internet resource of you tube and search 4th amendment violations
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denovo
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by denovo »

4nursebee wrote:
denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th

Really?

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_ ... ted_States
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littlebird
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by littlebird »

I've found it's pretty easy to find the name(s) of the owner(s) of any property by googling the address and noodling along until you find a site that names the owners. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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FelixTheCat
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by FelixTheCat »

I just got back from a VRBO vacation. It worked without a hiccup. The key is good communication with the owner.
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littlebird
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by littlebird »

FelixTheCat wrote:I just got back from a VRBO vacation. It worked without a hiccup. The key is good communication with the owner.
Lots of con men(women) are real good talkers.
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goingup
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by goingup »

littlebird wrote:I've found it's pretty easy to find the name(s) of the owner(s) of any property by googling the address and noodling along until you find a site that names the owners. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
I had a VRBO lined up for a family vacation in the Florida Keys a few years ago. I googled the property address and found it listed for sale. I backed out before sending in the deposit and was frankly pretty annoyed. The owner was very nonchalant and said the chance of selling her property before our trip in 6 months was slim. Buyer beware!
JFKtoSFO
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by JFKtoSFO »

In most, if not all, co-ops and condos in Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queens/Etc there are rules against renting for less than 30 days. So basically unless someone owns the whole brownstone/house, all the thousands of apartment listings you see are illegal. (And yes, I reported every single one in my building to the board.)

I second the advice to check with the city or town you're staying in. Most have clear cut laws on this.
TradingPlaces
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by TradingPlaces »

VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses.

The illegality of these businesses comes from the fact that necessary licenses, permits, insurance, training, background checks, etc, are not obtained prior to service.

For example, in order to have someone stay at someones apartment or condo, a hotel or B&B occupancy permit is required.

However, most VRBO operators do not have such permits.

In addition to lacking such permits, the operators of VRBO and AirBnB rentals often times use properties that are being rented. E.g., someone is renting an apartment in NYC. Now, they are going away for an extended weekend, but want to recoup some of the rent. So, they do AirBnB. Not only is this illegal, but it puts the property owner at risk as well. Risk range from getting a municipal fine to an HOA fine, to liability issues and up to losing the property. Unfortunately, when issues such as these happen, AirBnB conveniently points out that they are merely an online service matching a buyer and a seller. That is just not right.

So, to summarize, your concern that VRBO rentals can be illegal is very valid.

If the society as a whole thinks that VRBO and AirBnB, and Uber and Moustache are providing services that are a net gain to society, then those need to be defined, formalized, legalized, regulated, permitted, certificated, insured, and more. Once this is done, we might discover that AirBnB, as a business, is not worth a lot, or perhaps has negative value.
Last edited by TradingPlaces on Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TradingPlaces
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by TradingPlaces »

Separately, to the OP:

you have the right to not open the door to the police, unless they have a warrant. Not to talk to the police, even if they have a warrant.
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JonnyDVM
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by JonnyDVM »

Meh, sounds like the owner is the one in trouble not you. You might want to leave a one or two star review. Something like - Good location, clean, hassled by neighbors and police about our occupancy being illegal, coffee maker didn't work right.

I've rented numerous times from VRBO without incident. That's how you get a good deal. Even with a rental contract, which I always insist on if not offered, there's always that moment approaching the home where you're sweating a little whether it actually exists. So far so good. I know one person who got scammed. Payed via money wire. Not smart.
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Bfwolf
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by Bfwolf »

Paying money in advance for any of these properties is a terrible idea. If you are using your credit card to pay through Airbnb, your money is not released to the property owner until at least the day after your rental starts. So if you show up and the property is a scam, you contact Airbnb and the property owner will not get paid.
southbay
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by southbay »

adamthesmythe wrote:> in the future you might check with the city you are planning to visit to see if they even allow it.

I suppose this might help. My impression is that airbnb, etc. exist in part to facilitate illegal rentals, so I think they bear some of the responsibility.

I live in one of the towns with a 30 day rule, which is regularly flaunted.
Craigslist, Ebay, Amazon, Uber, etc.. all facilitate transactions. The respnsibility is on whomever is offering the sale/service/etc..
fundseeker
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by fundseeker »

4th Amendment? Yeah, you should always heed the legal advice of someone who does not even know which Amendment applies. Also, why not talk to the police, unless you have done something wrong!
desiderium
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by desiderium »

The local authorities are interested in the underground rental practice, and the police politely asked some questions. Local governments, particularly in tourist areas, depend heavily on lodging taxes. These jurisdictions have not caught up with the new way of doing business, and are seeing a loss of tax revenue. This is similar in some ways to how states have lost sales tax revenue with the growth of online shopping. You should expect more of this controversy in the future. Owners, and eventually AirBnB, are not going to have to deal with it more forthrightly.
prh2s
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by prh2s »

Users of Airbnb and similar services should consider three sets of caveats:

(1) local zoning/use and licensure laws

(2) tax laws, both for lodging taxes and income taxes

(3) insurance coverage

As others have noted, similar caveats apply to passenger transportation services such as Uber and Lyft.

Historically, these disruptive technologies have operated by deliberately violating state and local laws and by offloading risk onto people’s personal auto and homeowners policies. After acquiring a large, vocal user base in a jurisdiction, they can then use that political capital to have the jurisdiction’s rules rewritten (mostly in their own favor) and past offenses forgiven. It’s an ugly, but arguably an efficient, approach to effecting legislative change.

Patrick
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ResearchMed
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by ResearchMed »

TradingPlaces wrote:VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses.

The illegality of these businesses comes from the fact that necessary licenses, permits, insurance, training, background checks, etc, are not obtained prior to service.

For example, in order to have someone stay at someones apartment or condo, a hotel or B&B occupancy permit is required.

However, most VRBO operators do not have such permits.

In addition to lacking such permits, the operators of VRBO and AirBnB rentals often times use properties that are being rented. E.g., someone is renting an apartment in NYC. Now, they are going away for an extended weekend, but want to recoup some of the rent. So, they do AirBnB. Not only is this illegal, but it puts the property owner at risk as well. Risk range from getting a municipal fine to an HOA fine, to liability issues and up to losing the property. Unfortunately, when issues such as these happen, AirBnB conveniently points out that they are merely an online service matching a buyer and a seller. That is just not right.

So, to summarize, your concern that VRBO rentals can be illegal is very valid.

If the society as a whole thinks that VRBO and AirBnB, and Uber and Moustache are providing services that are a net gain to society, then those need to be defined, formalized, legalized, regulated, permitted, certificated, insured, and more. Once this is done, we might discover that AirBnB, as a business, is not worth a lot, or perhaps has negative value.
"VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses."

REALLY?

I don't know specifics about AirBnB or Uber, but as for VRBO... how in the world are you determining that their entire business is "illegal"?

If so, then why aren't car ads in the Sunday paper illegal?
Or the real estate listings in the MLS?
And you seem to have forgotten about Craigslist...

Just because some listings are misrepresentative (or totally fraudulent) doesn't make the entire underlying listing service illegal, unless the listing service is indeed violating some law(s), which you need to demonstrate.

Yes, some of the listings/rentals might be illegal (and without a doubt, some are, with fewer or more in certain locations).
But the underlying listing service?

Where our vacation rentals are, almost all of the listed rentals - on VRBO and elsewhere - do indeed have the business licenses and pay the "transient housing" taxes (perhaps all, but there's possibly someone not paying attention or willfully violating the laws).
This is an up and coming major resort area, and the revenue here (and elsewhere in the state) adds considerably to the local small town budgets.
(Most of the taxes/fees are actually for the state sales tax, but the extra small percentages added for the local authorities add, given the very small towns in the area. It does add up.)

There are a variety of other things, besides taxes.
We have fire extinguishers on each level, inspected annually, for example.
The hot tubs are professionally maintained to keep within public health guidelines.
(Many guests do not understand the importance of this, including for their own health/safety, when they try to insist that they can "treat the water" themselves, by the way.)
It's a business out there, as it is in many places.
Most owners and/or managers are responsible in running these businesses, as with many/most other types of businesses.

The problems in some major metropolitan areas (NYC and San Francisco come to mind), especially with AirBnB (it seems, but probably Craigslist, too) are not necessarily representative of all vacation/short-term rentals nationwide.
We aren't familiar with the laws in other countries.

RM
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Ketawa
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by Ketawa »

ResearchMed wrote:"VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses."

REALLY?

I don't know specifics about AirBnB or Uber, but as for VRBO... how in the world are you determining that their entire business is "illegal"?
Indeed...in my state, Uber is completely legal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr- ... -virginia/
pshonore
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by pshonore »

Ketawa wrote:
ResearchMed wrote:"VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses."

REALLY?

I don't know specifics about AirBnB or Uber, but as for VRBO... how in the world are you determining that their entire business is "illegal"?
Indeed...in my state, Uber is completely legal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr- ... -virginia/
Primarily because their are now evidently subject to the same legal requirements at taxis, etc. They may still have trouble with their drivers as independent contractors though.
btenny
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by btenny »

Well this whole AirBnB thing and VBRO thing is destroying housing neighborhoods in lots of towns and completely changing those towns. I know. I live in two of those towns.

Tahoe put into place a set of ordinances back when to allow almost all neighbor hoods to rent homes and condos and apartments on a short term basis as long as they registered and paid taxes. Well guess what. All the second homes and condos got rented out short term for profit. Every area is effected. And guess what, many of those properties are no longer occupied by primary home owners. Tons of people have moved "off the hill" and sold their homes to "rental managers/investors". So the population started shrinking and schools started closing and so forth. Well we are now into the 10th year or so of this shift and the population that lives here "full time" has shrunk by 30% or so and tons of small business have closed. Residential neighborhoods are now party central on weekends and parking and quiet is gone. The whole community has become a ghost town for much of the week and sometimes for weeks at a time. Many of the small hotels are gone and the prices have gone way up. Just a complete change in how the town works.

Now I also own a home in Scottsdale near a golf course. It is a prime tourist area in the winter with golf, shopping, nice winter weather, etc.. But currently most of the people go to a hotel for a short stay. Well all that is changing and most of it illegally. Condos HOAs and home owners are fighting this against a ton of other owners doing illegal short term rentals with all the issues. Hotels are not happy. Long term owners like me are not happy at seeing tons of cars and people and no neighbors that really care about the homes. I did not buy my home so I could live next door to a hotel and listen to bachelor parties and football games and cabs parked blocking my drive way etc.. The lady across the street is apoplectic about her kids safety. She is single and travels a lot. Not a good situation.

Why does everyone think they can just do whatever and to heck with neighbors and laws and rules
adamthesmythe
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by adamthesmythe »

ResearchMed wrote:
TradingPlaces wrote:VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses.

The illegality of these businesses comes from the fact that necessary licenses, permits, insurance, training, background checks, etc, are not obtained prior to service.

For example, in order to have someone stay at someones apartment or condo, a hotel or B&B occupancy permit is required.

However, most VRBO operators do not have such permits.

In addition to lacking such permits, the operators of VRBO and AirBnB rentals often times use properties that are being rented. E.g., someone is renting an apartment in NYC. Now, they are going away for an extended weekend, but want to recoup some of the rent. So, they do AirBnB. Not only is this illegal, but it puts the property owner at risk as well. Risk range from getting a municipal fine to an HOA fine, to liability issues and up to losing the property. Unfortunately, when issues such as these happen, AirBnB conveniently points out that they are merely an online service matching a buyer and a seller. That is just not right.

So, to summarize, your concern that VRBO rentals can be illegal is very valid.

If the society as a whole thinks that VRBO and AirBnB, and Uber and Moustache are providing services that are a net gain to society, then those need to be defined, formalized, legalized, regulated, permitted, certificated, insured, and more. Once this is done, we might discover that AirBnB, as a business, is not worth a lot, or perhaps has negative value.
"VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses."

REALLY?

I don't know specifics about AirBnB or Uber, but as for VRBO... how in the world are you determining that their entire business is "illegal"?

If so, then why aren't car ads in the Sunday paper illegal?
Or the real estate listings in the MLS?
And you seem to have forgotten about Craigslist...

Just because some listings are misrepresentative (or totally fraudulent) doesn't make the entire underlying listing service illegal, unless the listing service is indeed violating some law(s), which you need to demonstrate.

Yes, some of the listings/rentals might be illegal (and without a doubt, some are, with fewer or more in certain locations).
But the underlying listing service?

Where our vacation rentals are, almost all of the listed rentals - on VRBO and elsewhere - do indeed have the business licenses and pay the "transient housing" taxes (perhaps all, but there's possibly someone not paying attention or willfully violating the laws).
This is an up and coming major resort area, and the revenue here (and elsewhere in the state) adds considerably to the local small town budgets.
(Most of the taxes/fees are actually for the state sales tax, but the extra small percentages added for the local authorities add, given the very small towns in the area. It does add up.)

There are a variety of other things, besides taxes.
We have fire extinguishers on each level, inspected annually, for example.
The hot tubs are professionally maintained to keep within public health guidelines.
(Many guests do not understand the importance of this, including for their own health/safety, when they try to insist that they can "treat the water" themselves, by the way.)
It's a business out there, as it is in many places.
Most owners and/or managers are responsible in running these businesses, as with many/most other types of businesses.

The problems in some major metropolitan areas (NYC and San Francisco come to mind), especially with AirBnB (it seems, but probably Craigslist, too) are not necessarily representative of all vacation/short-term rentals nationwide.
We aren't familiar with the laws in other countries.

RM
"Wholly illegal" was an overstatement. More correct is: sometimes illegal, maybe even often illegal, and also in some cases a violation of HOA rules.

The attraction of VRBO/ airbnb is greatest in high-demand cities, which are often the places with taxes or laws in place.
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ResearchMed
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by ResearchMed »

adamthesmythe wrote:
ResearchMed wrote:
TradingPlaces wrote:VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses.

The illegality of these businesses comes from the fact that necessary licenses, permits, insurance, training, background checks, etc, are not obtained prior to service.

For example, in order to have someone stay at someones apartment or condo, a hotel or B&B occupancy permit is required.

However, most VRBO operators do not have such permits.

In addition to lacking such permits, the operators of VRBO and AirBnB rentals often times use properties that are being rented. E.g., someone is renting an apartment in NYC. Now, they are going away for an extended weekend, but want to recoup some of the rent. So, they do AirBnB. Not only is this illegal, but it puts the property owner at risk as well. Risk range from getting a municipal fine to an HOA fine, to liability issues and up to losing the property. Unfortunately, when issues such as these happen, AirBnB conveniently points out that they are merely an online service matching a buyer and a seller. That is just not right.

So, to summarize, your concern that VRBO rentals can be illegal is very valid.

If the society as a whole thinks that VRBO and AirBnB, and Uber and Moustache are providing services that are a net gain to society, then those need to be defined, formalized, legalized, regulated, permitted, certificated, insured, and more. Once this is done, we might discover that AirBnB, as a business, is not worth a lot, or perhaps has negative value.
"VRBO, AirBnB, Uber, are all wholly illegal businesses."

REALLY?

I don't know specifics about AirBnB or Uber, but as for VRBO... how in the world are you determining that their entire business is "illegal"?

If so, then why aren't car ads in the Sunday paper illegal?
Or the real estate listings in the MLS?
And you seem to have forgotten about Craigslist...

Just because some listings are misrepresentative (or totally fraudulent) doesn't make the entire underlying listing service illegal, unless the listing service is indeed violating some law(s), which you need to demonstrate.

Yes, some of the listings/rentals might be illegal (and without a doubt, some are, with fewer or more in certain locations).
But the underlying listing service?

Where our vacation rentals are, almost all of the listed rentals - on VRBO and elsewhere - do indeed have the business licenses and pay the "transient housing" taxes (perhaps all, but there's possibly someone not paying attention or willfully violating the laws).
This is an up and coming major resort area, and the revenue here (and elsewhere in the state) adds considerably to the local small town budgets.
(Most of the taxes/fees are actually for the state sales tax, but the extra small percentages added for the local authorities add, given the very small towns in the area. It does add up.)

There are a variety of other things, besides taxes.
We have fire extinguishers on each level, inspected annually, for example.
The hot tubs are professionally maintained to keep within public health guidelines.
(Many guests do not understand the importance of this, including for their own health/safety, when they try to insist that they can "treat the water" themselves, by the way.)
It's a business out there, as it is in many places.
Most owners and/or managers are responsible in running these businesses, as with many/most other types of businesses.

The problems in some major metropolitan areas (NYC and San Francisco come to mind), especially with AirBnB (it seems, but probably Craigslist, too) are not necessarily representative of all vacation/short-term rentals nationwide.
We aren't familiar with the laws in other countries.

RM
"Wholly illegal" was an overstatement. More correct is: sometimes illegal, maybe even often illegal, and also in some cases a violation of HOA rules.

The attraction of VRBO/ airbnb is greatest in high-demand cities, which are often the places with taxes or laws in place.
Careful...

It's not "VRBO" that is "illegal" in these situations.

It is the homeowner who would be violating local statutes (and/or HOA regs), not VRBO.
That is a local enforcement issue, and we are absolutely not arguing about that.

We went out of our way to make sure that our planned purchase of vacation rental properties was for LEGAL rentals, and also those that did not violate any non-governmental (e.g., HOA) regs, either.

As for demand, there is certainly a high demand for vacation rentals (VRBO-listed or not) in major resort areas, where there is a long history of having vacation rentals, and no one is (or should be) surprised to find them there.

Our area happens to be a "new resort area", based upon a new resort, where there are many rentals within the resort and many in the growing nearby areas.
All of it has been legal since the developments began, and the cabin/condo rental communities nearby were built and advertised as acceptable for short term vacation rentals, although it's about half and half, in terms of owner use without rental use.

Don't lump these legal rentals (or VRBO) in with the questionable and/or illegal rentals in some other places - and those are certainly happening, unfortunately.
Again, it's an enforcement issue, also unfortunately, as there just isn't enough staffing to properly enforce massive violations.

RM

[We have no affiliation with VRBO other than for our paid listings there. We don't even own any of their stock, unless it's included in a mutual fund.]
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
btenny
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by btenny »

The place I am talking about in Arizona is all large nice single family homes. Everyone has a good sized front and back yard and many have pools. The HOA passed a set of regulations back in 2001 with 67% (or greater) of the homeowners agreeing to not have any rentals shorter than 6 months. So NO short term rentals. But now we have had two different owners ignoring the rules and renting their homes a lot. It is a mess and likely to get real ugly before it is finished. People are going to meetings and hiring lawyers and crying about bad neighbors and so forth. A real mess.

The situation in Tahoe is similar but much worse IMO. The homes are in a big expensive area with lots of nice amenities but also a lot of condos. So the condos have always been short term rentals. Well now everything is short term rented and parking is a nightmare around any holiday and noise can be crazy. Already many homes are being "updated" to add bedrooms to make homes 7 bedrooms or more so they sleep 20+ people (in a former 4 bedroom home) but still only have parking for 2-3 cars. Imagine what happens when a college fraternity or bachelor party comes to that house. And soon I expect some investor to buy several homes next door to one another and call them a "group rental" and put in a "central "kitchen" just like a hotel. And offer "free drinks" at an area in one home just like a "bar". Outdoor music anyone? We already have loud crazy outdoor hot tub parties. And noise regulations that allow loud stuff to 10PM but that slides to midnight many times.

Do you want to live next door to this stuff???
btenny
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by btenny »

By the way, when is "facilitating a violation" or similar issue a crime and not by Airbnb or VBRO?
Spirit Rider
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by Spirit Rider »

btenny wrote:Well this whole AirBnB thing and VBRO thing is destroying housing neighborhoods in lots of towns and completely changing those towns. I know. I live in two of those towns.

Tahoe put into place a set of ordinances back when to allow almost all neighbor hoods to rent homes and condos and apartments on a short term basis as long as they registered and paid taxes. Well guess what. All the second homes and condos got rented out short term for profit. Every area is effected. And guess what, many of those properties are no longer occupied by primary home owners. Tons of people have moved "off the hill" and sold their homes to "rental managers/investors". So the population started shrinking and schools started closing and so forth. Well we are now into the 10th year or so of this shift and the population that lives here "full time" has shrunk by 30% or so and tons of small business have closed. Residential neighborhoods are now party central on weekends and parking and quiet is gone. The whole community has become a ghost town for much of the week and sometimes for weeks at a time. Many of the small hotels are gone and the prices have gone way up. Just a complete change in how the town works.

Now I also own a home in Scottsdale near a golf course. It is a prime tourist area in the winter with golf, shopping, nice winter weather, etc.. But currently most of the people go to a hotel for a short stay. Well all that is changing and most of it illegally. Condos HOAs and home owners are fighting this against a ton of other owners doing illegal short term rentals with all the issues. Hotels are not happy. Long term owners like me are not happy at seeing tons of cars and people and no neighbors that really care about the homes. I did not buy my home so I could live next door to a hotel and listen to bachelor parties and football games and cabs parked blocking my drive way etc.. The lady across the street is apoplectic about her kids safety. She is single and travels a lot. Not a good situation.

Why does everyone think they can just do whatever and to heck with neighbors and laws and rules
One constant in life is change. There have been, are, and will be many disruptions in the way society evolves. Barriers to change almost always fall to the momentum of history. Ask the Luddites how successful they were.

AirBnB and VBRO, Uber and Lyft, A and Z, etc... are enabling technologies of individual capitalism. This is for good and bad, but I wouldn't try to stand in front of the power of the individual. Personally, though I have never used any of the four services I mentioned, more power to them.
new2bogle
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by new2bogle »

denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
And risk being arrested. Do you really trust the police?
denovo
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by denovo »

new2bogle wrote:
denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
And risk being arrested. Do you really trust the police?
Huh?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
adam1712
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by adam1712 »

denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
Well, if the police say they want to hang out at your vacation quarters, maybe it's the 3rd. I've always wanted to invoke my 3rd amendment rights.
randomguy
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by randomguy »

fundseeker wrote:4th Amendment? Yeah, you should always heed the legal advice of someone who does not even know which Amendment applies. Also, why not talk to the police, unless you have done something wrong!
Because if you talk to the police, they might find out that you have done something wrong that you are unaware of. For example imagine the law in this town is that anyone renting an illegal unit owes a 10k fine.:)
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JonnyDVM
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by JonnyDVM »

denovo wrote:
new2bogle wrote:
denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
And risk being arrested. Do you really trust the police?
Huh?
First they're politely asking you how you came to rent a vacation house for the week. Next thing you know they're demanding that you give up your arms and quarter soldiers in said rental home. It's a slippery slope.
I’d trade it all for a little more | -C Montgomery Burns
adam1712
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by adam1712 »

randomguy wrote:
fundseeker wrote:4th Amendment? Yeah, you should always heed the legal advice of someone who does not even know which Amendment applies. Also, why not talk to the police, unless you have done something wrong!
Because if you talk to the police, they might find out that you have done something wrong that you are unaware of. For example imagine the law in this town is that anyone renting an illegal unit owes a 10k fine.:)
There is a flip side that I think the chances of the police seeking an eviction are a lot higher if you don't talk to the police. If you do talk, a situation similar to the OP where they let you stay when you cooperate and then go after the owner who is likely the person they're really interested in.
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goingup
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Re: VRBO illegal rental

Post by goingup »

JonnyDVM wrote:
denovo wrote:
new2bogle wrote:
denovo wrote:
4nursebee wrote:In the future exercise your 4th amendment rights and shut up when talking to the police.

5th
And risk being arrested. Do you really trust the police?
Huh?
First they're politely asking you how you came to rent a vacation house for the week. Next thing you know they're demanding that you give up your arms and quarter soldiers in said rental home. It's a slippery slope.
:P This is what I say about this BH forum: Come for the investment advice, but stay for the laughs!
btenny
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Re: VRBO illegal rental [Vacation Rentals by Owner]

Post by btenny »

The real question in all this is how vacation and short term rentals impact costs. Well here is what I know from Tahoe.

1. HOA costs go up a lot.
1a. The HOA hired 2-3 regular guards to drive around and watch out for noise and parking and other constant complaints. THis is a 24x7 issue and takes 2-3 cars. Just like having a night clerk and night guard at a hotel. But this cost is now required of everyone including lots of second home owners who do not rent. It costs a bundle.
1b. The HOA had big increases on common area maintenance. Lots more users and casual damage.
1c. HOA had to install new gates and add summer guard by restricted areas due to renters not following rules and going into restricted areas.
1d. HOA had big increase in HOA office traffic due to renters constantly coming around with issues. Added office staff to covers increase in traffic.
1e. HOA had increase in common area insurance and liability coverage.
1f. HOA raised dues.

2. Home values went up in some areas and down in others. In condo areas unit prices went up and HOA fees went way up. In home areas not directly on the water home prices are stable to down due to less desirability for full time residence. With direct lake access homes prices went up if there is a good rental history. But those homes had major remodeling so the owners spent a ton to do fancy looks. Not sure they made any money net net due to big mortgages.

3. Home prices in the whole town have gone up overall due to proximity to Bay area tech centers and high pay. So lots of need for recreation for well paid people.

4. No longer can local workers or seasonal workers or low wage service people live here. They have to commute a long way. So service help and related prices (like gas and groceries) are going way up versus other areas. I saw gasoline at $3.49-$3.79 per gallon yesterday. Everyone who stays here more than a week drives 25-40 miles to Nevada for gas/grocery/drinks run to Costco and Walmart. So more local businesses go away.

5. Rental prices for short term stays are very reasonable (except three holidays) due to all the expanded capacity of homes and condos and hotels. The whole town is for rent. Christmas and New Years and July 4th are expensive and everything else is moderate. So rental income is just not very big after expenses versus crazy high home prices. So these people are spending a ton to pay giant mortgages with little rental income to offset them IMO.

6. And for the last four years snow at the local resorts was poor to bad. So winter rentals were poor. The snow never came this year at all. One resort never opened. Another opened for 3 weeks. Ski season was over in early March. So no money. TBD if this is global warming or just another bad year.

So I think there is another big home price bubble brewing in the Sierras with prices being just too high. Things cannot just keep go up.
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