Convince me not to buy Porsche

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FireSekr
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Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

Yes, I know, another one of these threads. Here's the deal:

I'm 28 working in the tech/consulting industry taking in about $105k +potential 10% bonus a year and keep my expenses quite low. I max out my 401k (18k fed limit) and Roth IRA (5.5K) and save about $2 a month after accounting for expenses. 6 months emergency fund in savings account, and 1.5x salary in retirement. Not near term plans to buy a home or any other major purchases.

I have been spending a lot of time tracking my car (bmw 328) but would like something geared more to tracking rather than a fairly big 4 door car.

Porsche Cayman fits the bill but was going to wait another 2-3 years to be in a better financial position and be able to keep my BMW as a daily driver. Unfortunately Porsche is changing from a flat-6 engine to a 4 cylinder turbo next year (which for many reasons isn't so great on the track), so the latest I can place an order for the current model is probably Feb 2016, 2 years earlier than my planned order date. The entire auto industry is moving in this direction of using turbos, etc for environmental purposes, and frankly this is one of the last cars that will have a non-turbo mid-engine, rear wheel drive layout, manual transmission and weigh just about 3k lbs.

I'm currently paying $500 a month for my BMW at 1.9% and another $425 a month for my road bike at 0%. The road bike will be paid for next month. If I sell the BMW and put $20k down on the Porsche, I'd have roughly $1k a month payments at 1.5% for 60 months. Essentially my costs would be the same as they are now, but spending $70k on a car seems insane. I'd also need a daily driver, but I could find and old BMW for $5k or so (I can work on the car myself not worried about maintenance)

Buying used is possible, but not likely...only 3K cayman's have been produced a year, 1.5K have a manual transmission, and Porsche has so many options that finding one with the things you want is a challenge.

Am I crazy for even entertaining this idea? I have this belief that we're at the apex of fun to drive cars, and I'd like to entertain my passion for driving while I still can before everything turns to electric self driving vehicles, but I have a hard time spending such a huge amount of money.
Last edited by FireSekr on Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
takeshi
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by takeshi »

I'm the wrong person for that. We love our 981. We use ours as a daily.
ssquared87 wrote:Buying used is possible, but not likely...only 3K cayman's have been produced a year, 1.5K have a manual transmission, and Porsche has so many options that finding one with the things you want is a challenge.
Have you actually looked or are you just assuming? If all the options you're ticking off are must-haves then, yes, it can be difficult to go used. However, if you have a list of must haves and a list of items you're willing to compromise on then you may be able to find something. Ours was lightly used (1 year and 11K) and had all of our must-haves. Was also about 20K (the cost of its options) less than sticker.
Last edited by takeshi on Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
Topic Author
FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

takeshi wrote:I'm the wrong person for that. We love our 981. We use ours as a daily.
It's impossible not to! Did you go base or S? I'm leaning towards S but think I'd still be happy with base
BogleMe
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by BogleMe »

You will attract very negative attention with a flashy car. Cops will be thrilled to ticket you and you will increase the probability that psychotics will find refuge in causing you or your family problems - from vandalism to the more sinister.
Last edited by BogleMe on Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BL
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by BL »

Ok, you're crazy.
we're at the apex of fun
Does the "we" mean you are married? Will she borrow $70k for something frivolous, too?

If you had saved up the money my reaction would be "why not?"
psychoslowmatic
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by psychoslowmatic »

Your savings per year are 2k* 12 + 18 + 5.5= 47.5k. Say 40k in taxable equivalent. Are you OK with saving nothing for almost two years to afford it? If you know you're going to drive the car hard I would set up a 500-mile cars.com and autotrader search and be ready to jump on the right used one when it becomes available. Used Caymans can be an incredible fun/$ value if you find the right one.
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greg24
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by greg24 »

Don't buy a porsche.
Lindrobe
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Lindrobe »

Have you considered a used Cayman? I came very close to purchasing a used Cayman S two years ago. I was only looking for a very clean manual transmission also and found quite a few that fit what I was looking for. I was looking at spending about $40k for a very low mileage S that was about 4-5 years old. I ended up talking myself out of it and ordered a brand new Audi instead.

If you do decide to splurge for a Cayman, personally, I would only buy an S. They hold their value a lot better than the lower end Cayman.
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JupiterJones
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by JupiterJones »

Simple answer: If you have to borrow money to get it, you cannot--by definition--afford it.
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snackdog
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by snackdog »

Have you considered borrowing a suitable car from a friend for track events? Do you know a used Miata is the most fun you can have at a track (and elsewhere) and is also the best value? Also has the best user groups and nicest members.

I recommend no more than 5% of gross salary on a vehicle, so in your case $5,000/year including capex, interest, depreciation, insurance, fuel, taxes, tires, etc. I wouldn't spend more than about $15,000 total on a car in your situation.
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kjvmartin
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by kjvmartin »

I'm quoting from Taylor Larimore, because this has been instrumental in my personal financial life.
Bogleheads:

Automobiles are used primarily to get us from point A to point B. Every car sold in America will do that job. Some do it with more comfort or luxury than others, but the cost is higher than most of us realize:

I used Edmonds 5-Year True Cost to Own between two similar vehicles: A 2014 Toyota Lexus ES 350 sedan and a Toyota L Camry sedan.

The Lexus 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $59,160.
The Camry 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $42,489.
The difference is $16,731 or $3,346/year.

Saving $3,346/year @ 7% compounds to over $350,000 in 30 years.

Driving a modestly priced car is the easiest way I know to save money.

Edit: To make the comparison more vivid, I compared a Lexus LS 460 sedan with a Toyota Corolla sedan (a car I drove for many years):

The Lexus 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $91,250
The Corolla 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $38,242.
The difference is $53,008 or $10,601/year.

Saving $10,601/year @ 7% compounds to a saving of $1,117,986 in 30 years (a comfortable retirement).
2tall4economy
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by 2tall4economy »

I bought a loaded dodge viper when I was 25 against all good advice.

I'm glad I did. got "it" out of my system and I've haven't pined for a bank breaking sports car since. Cheap investment in my future savings plan if you think about it that way.
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denovo
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by denovo »

JupiterJones wrote:Simple answer: If you have to borrow money to get it, you cannot--by definition--afford it.
You paid cash for your house?
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

kjvmike wrote:I'm quoting from Taylor Larimore, because this has been instrumental in my personal financial life.

Bogleheads:

Automobiles are used primarily to get us from point A to point B. Every car sold in America will do that job. Some do it with more comfort or luxury than others, but the cost is higher than most of us realize:

I used Edmonds 5-Year True Cost to Own between two similar vehicles: A 2014 Toyota Lexus ES 350 sedan and a Toyota L Camry sedan.

The Lexus 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $59,160.
The Camry 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $42,489.
The difference is $16,731 or $3,346/year.

Saving $3,346/year @ 7% compounds to over $350,000 in 30 years.

Driving a modestly priced car is the easiest way I know to save money.

Edit: To make the comparison more vivid, I compared a Lexus LS 460 sedan with a Toyota Corolla sedan (a car I drove for many years):

The Lexus 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $91,250
The Corolla 5-year cost to own is estimated to be $38,242.
The difference is $53,008 or $10,601/year.

Saving $10,601/year @ 7% compounds to a saving of $1,117,986 in 30 years (a comfortable retirement).
Taylor is amazing, he is so right about this, but good luck driving a Camry on an off ramp, let alone a race track, but yeah maybe an older cheaper track car like the Miata someone mentioned is the better approach. Then again, don't want to be the richest guy in the cemetery either.
Last edited by FireSekr on Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

psychoslowmatic wrote:Your savings per year are 2k* 12 + 18 + 5.5= 47.5k. Say 40k in taxable equivalent. Are you OK with saving nothing for almost two years to afford it? If you know you're going to drive the car hard I would set up a 500-mile cars.com and autotrader search and be ready to jump on the right used one when it becomes available. Used Caymans can be an incredible fun/$ value if you find the right one.
Well thats the thing, my savings rate would not change...between my car and bike payments, i'm paying just about $1k a month now and still saving that much. If I skip the Porsche, then my bike will be done next month and I'll be saving another $425 a month/$5100 a year
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

snackdog wrote:Have you considered borrowing a suitable car from a friend for track events? Do you know a used Miata is the most fun you can have at a track (and elsewhere) and is also the best value? Also has the best user groups and nicest members.

I recommend no more than 5% of gross salary on a vehicle, so in your case $5,000/year including capex, interest, depreciation, insurance, fuel, taxes, tires, etc. I wouldn't spend more than about $15,000 total on a car in your situation.
I actually haven't tried a Miata, I don't know anyone who has one. I'd be interested in trying one of those or a Honda S2000. The community aspect of the Mazda appeals to me. I've been doing a lot of activities with the BMW and Porsche club, and I've made a lot of friends there. The Mazda crowd does seem like a good group
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fire5soon
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by fire5soon »

I like Porsches, but I'm much more of an American muscle kind of guy. I get my car fix with a used LSx car. It's a fraction of the price but it handles well, tracks well, sounds like a beast and has loads of aftermarket upgrade potential. I love cars and figured I wasn't getting any younger so I scratched the horsepower itch so to speak.

If I was spending Porsche money I'd get a C5 or C6 Corvette and make it a beast. But that's just me... :beer
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

takeshi wrote:I'm the wrong person for that. We love our 981. We use ours as a daily.
ssquared87 wrote:Buying used is possible, but not likely...only 3K cayman's have been produced a year, 1.5K have a manual transmission, and Porsche has so many options that finding one with the things you want is a challenge.
Have you actually looked or are you just assuming? If all the options you're ticking off are must-haves then, yes, it can be difficult to go used. However, if you have a list of must haves and a list of items you're willing to compromise on then you may be able to find something. Ours was lightly used (1 year and 11K) and had all of our must-haves. Was also about 20K (the cost of its options) less than sticker.
I just started looking on the Porsche CPO website and haven't seen anything with the sport suspension and performance exhaust which are the two main options I was looking for. I'm not in a rush so over the next few months can keep my eye out.

Did you get yours through Porsche or found it from a private party?
TareNeko
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by TareNeko »

I have done track days. I did it to become a better driver and stopped after getting to certain point because at that instant the ROI was low in terms of learning. It was fun, and I miss it, but I figured FI (not fuel injection, but financial independence) is a more important goal. After I'm FI, I can go back to it.

I think the worst way of doing track days is with a brand new, high tech car. Unless of course you have millions in the bank. I urge you to get a Miata or E30 325 (PRO3) or E36 M3 or something similar. Also properly get them track ready. Or buy a one that is prep'ed for track use already. This should cost you less than $15k. You would save immense amount of money compared to a brand new Cayman. And with the excess money, you can attend to more track days, take more courses, and still have money left over.

Couple random notes:

- Running expenses of a Miata will be significantly less than Porsche. Lighter car, less power = smaller tires, less frequent brake pad/rotor changes.
- Track insurance would be a lot cheaper for Miata. In fact, you have to get one for the Porsche, but you don't for the Miata since it's so cheap.
- You would be a better driver with Miata.
Last edited by TareNeko on Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ged
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Ged »

I think you need to set up a model where you can see the impact of these lifestyle choices on things like your eventual retirement age. Taylor gave you a hint as to what the implications of this are. What you need is a more comprehensive evaluation that is specific to you.

Then you can decide if a Porsche is worth having to work an extra 5 years or having a smaller house or a longer commute to work.

We can't make that decision for you.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

BL wrote:Ok, you're crazy.
we're at the apex of fun
Does the "we" mean you are married? Will she borrow $70k for something frivolous, too?

If you had saved up the money my reaction would be "why not?"
Single and no I meant we as in auto enthusiasts...all the newer cars have turbo, electric power steering, fake engine sounds coming through the audio system to make up for the poor engine sound of the turbos, active suspensions which make the car more comfortable to drive on public roads but hard to predict on the track.

It's somewhat depressing, I drove a friend's new M4 and we both agreed that my lowly 4 year old 328 was much more fun to drive even though it has half the power and weighs more.

Cars are becoming rolling computers and while the tech is getting better, they are becoming more about utility rather than fun, and racing is a hobby for me. I'm not buying this to go to a bar and pickup girls or show off...when I go out with friends it would sit in the garage and I'll drive a 10 year old piece of junk.
TareNeko
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by TareNeko »

ssquared87 wrote: and racing is a hobby for me.
Track days are not racing. PRO3 or SCCA is racing. Get a E30 325 or Spec Miata. Then you can race. Racing a brand new Cayman (which I don't think there is racing series for it) would be insane.
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Kenkat
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Kenkat »

If you are going to run a Cayman at the track, you are going to need to plan for tires at least every other year if not yearly depending how much you drive it. I had a buddy who had a Carerra S4 and tires for it ran $2000+ and they were good for about 20k.

Are you able to do your own maintenance? Oil changes and service at the Porsche dealer ain't cheap either.

A Porsche is a great driving experience but it is an expensive one.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by BruDude »

Buy an E92 M3. You can find nice examples for $35-45k, will hold its value well, it's a perfect combo of daily drivability, great on the track especially with some mods done, has one of the best engines ever made, and still has luxury comfort (much nicer than the 328, the interior has a totally different feel, trust me). IMO one of the best all-around cars ever made, just make sure to have an extended warranty because repair bills can be insanely expensive even for minor items (had my A/C evaporator unit replaced under warranty - would've been $3400 for a $300 part and $3100 labor tearing apart the car to fix it). The exhaust note and downshifts with an aftermarket exhaust are just incredible...

As a former Corvette daily driver owner, I can tell you that you will definitely get tired of the suspension and size of a Porsche driving in traffic at some point. Fun second car, not so much as a daily driver. You don't want to be stuck with a $70k car that you get tired of driving every day.
Last edited by BruDude on Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
killjoy2012
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by killjoy2012 »

Another case where asking car questions on BH.org probably isn't the best option. To some, a car is just a tool that gets you from point A to B, and the cheaper the better. To others, cars are hobby, an image, a passion, etc. and the whole "doing it as cheaply as possible" mantra doesn't apply.

OP - I also work in IT. I'm a car guy, though a little older than you. I get it. If tracking is your passion, then certainly pursue it, but I think your gut instinct on the cost magnitude is right.

1) A 20-something driving a $70k car, even if you're making $100k, just doesn't sit right with me from a fun vs. personal finance perspective. That's a lot of money for a non-wealthy individual to sink into a quickly depreciating asset like a car. Maybe look at 2-4 year old Porsche or M3 instead?

2) Are you really willing & able to track a $70k new car? Accidents, collisions, breaking parts, warranty voids, insurance headaches. That seems pretty risky.

3) I would not buy an "old BMW for $5k or so". Even if you are able to do some maintenance yourself, costs are killer on an older German car.

I would still pursue the hobby if you're that into it, but not with a new Porsche.
Last edited by killjoy2012 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JupiterJones
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by JupiterJones »

denovo wrote:
JupiterJones wrote:Simple answer: If you have to borrow money to get it, you cannot--by definition--afford it.
You paid cash for your house?

Good point! I certainly couldn't afford to pay cash for my house, and did take out a loan for a portion of it. I think it is important to realize, even with houses, that being able to make the payments is not the same thing as being able to "afford" the item.

The more nuanced question behind my simple answer then is: When is it a smart move to borrow money in order to get something you can't immediately afford?

When it's a reasonably-priced house in a decent market, for your primary residence? When you are otherwise debt-free and have a 20%+ down payment? Sure.

When it's an investment in yourself by way of a good education in a well-chosen field? Most of the time, yeah. (Although I didn't take out student loans myself.)

When it's a toy that you like to play with as a hobby?

Umm... nope. :D

Nevermind the fact that the toy will be costing 60% of your annual income!
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surfstar
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by surfstar »

Buy an S2000 to flog around a track. Lotus Elise? Miata?

You're buying a 'toy' to use on a track. There are way more options that can be had for $5k-20k, and elicit the same feeling of racing. A $70k Porsche is a very expensive toy.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

If you want to do serious track time, find a track prepped Miata

I roadraced showroom stock cars for about 15 years and made my way into prepped class racecars. Gained a few track records in an e30 m3 before picking up a former scca it car and running that. I also instructed with BMW, COM and SCDA.

You learn a heck of a lot more in small momentum cars (civic, miata, sentra , 318ti and the like). There's also more competitors if you want to compete.

With a cheap, dedicated racecar, if you put it into a wall, you will be able to afford to write it off, tow it home, pull off whatever parts are usable and sell the rest for scrap.....then find another car.


My current daily driver, by the way, is an 07 Lotus Elise that I would not even think of tracking.
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gunn_show
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by gunn_show »

ssquared87 wrote:
snackdog wrote:Have you considered borrowing a suitable car from a friend for track events? Do you know a used Miata is the most fun you can have at a track (and elsewhere) and is also the best value? Also has the best user groups and nicest members.

I recommend no more than 5% of gross salary on a vehicle, so in your case $5,000/year including capex, interest, depreciation, insurance, fuel, taxes, tires, etc. I wouldn't spend more than about $15,000 total on a car in your situation.
I actually haven't tried a Miata, I don't know anyone who has one. I'd be interested in trying one of those or a Honda S2000. The community aspect of the Mazda appeals to me. I've been doing a lot of activities with the BMW and Porsche club, and I've made a lot of friends there. The Mazda crowd does seem like a good group
28yo making 100k and already owning 1 car and 1 motorcycle, asking for a thumbs up on this board to buy a third vehicle for $70k as a sunday "track car" ... yeah that never goes well. Most on this board don't fathom spending 70k on a daily driver with hour commutes, never the less as a part time fun vehicle. That's for millionaires.

I comment as a guy slightly older, slightly more than 2x income, no debts outside mortgage, and my only car is provided by work (luckily a sport model with 270hp). I am also a "car guy" and have always been. I'd be lying if I didn't admit to weekly craigslist eyeballing of Triumph Scramblers and Porsche 911 or Macan's. I can afford both, today, cash. But why? I get it, you're young and have money and I can appreciate the sentiment of now being the apex of fun cars, I do agree and dread the days of Priuses and EVs everywhere, if not already. Boring. Let's hope Tesla gets bigger, better, and cheaper.

My recommendation similar to others would be to get a $10-20k used car in cash, if this is truly your favorite hobby. I owned a 2005 S2000 for 4 years, put only 20k on it, and that sucker was insane. Go drive one, you'll see. Best 6spd manual on the market, and I believe the highest rated output to cylinder ratio out there. With some basic mods I had it at 270hp and would smoke most cars 2x the price. And with a straight pipe it sounds downright mean, like a v6. Unfortunately Honda stopped making them so the avg resale has skyrocketed (believe me, been eyeballing a project s2k also) so you have to set alerts and find the one you want. It's a damn fun car, damn reliable car, huge car club presence, and easy to fix and buy tons of mods for. Either that or go Miata, as they are very similar looking, reliability, and likely 10x easier to find due to production. Save the Porsche for the next round, when you're making 2-3x and have a few cheaper beaters under your belt.
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18B4W8
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by 18B4W8 »

I won't talk you out of it but I'd look at a 2009. There was a known problem with ISB (?) bearings that was fixed that year. IMO buying new for the track is a loser. With the GT4 allocation guys are selling their CaymenS/GTS that are band new with low miles as well. There will be a lot of hidden costs for tracking and you'll always want to upgrade, so buyer be ware. This is a good site specific to P cars http://rennlist.com/forums/marketplace/cars/search/ Also check out Planet9. You might also want to consider keeping your DD and adding a Cayman for $35-40k. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a track ready Cayman and cut down your costs. I'm pretty sure I saw one on Rennlist last week. The good things about expensive cars is guys change them like their underwear, so you can find someone that paid the depreciation and upgrades for you. Good luck!
dbphd
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by dbphd »

I'm assuming OP is interested in track days, not racing, and they can be a lot of fun. Right after my post doc, I bought a 6 month old '70 911T that I used as a daily driver. The car went to Japan 25 years later with nearly 100 kMi, and sold for more than I paid for it. I regret having sold it, but now have a 2013 Carrara S cabriolet with PDK. A Cayman S with PDK would be ideal for POC or PCA track days -- OP can't shift as quickly as PDK. I'd buy a certified car from a dealer. Get rid of the bike, because they're too dangerous, and buy a Porsche as a daily driver and track toy.

db
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midareff
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by midareff »

kjvmike wrote:I'm quoting from Taylor Larimore, because this has been instrumental in my personal financial life.

Bogleheads:

Automobiles are used primarily to get us from point A to point B. Every car sold in America will do that job. Some do it with more comfort or luxury than others, but the cost is higher than most of us realize:
Change the words automobile and car to sailboat and where do you get?

I can't convince you not to get a Porsche, they are engineering marvels. I had two, bought both new. If you are looking for a car you can track be sure you get the "030" suspension option, or whatever it is called now. About a half inch lower, stiffer springs, stronger sway bars and from memory they set some of the joints up a bit different so you can run a larger negative camber. I raced (auto-crossed) the second one, a Boxster S. .. all over the southern half of the state for almost four years, big fun. It was also my daily driver. You can do that with a small tire trailer for a set of race tires and make the change outs at the track. I ran on super sticky Kuhmos and used them on the street as well after having the toe set near zero.

There were two things I didn't like about them both..... sensors were always going off needing a trip to the dealer for a change out under warranty and they definitely attract the wrong group of females if you have anything serious in mind. Never had a problem with the police or tickets and both of them accumulated lots of frequent flyer miles.

If you can afford the $$ for the cars, tires, hotels, etc., go have fun.
sk2101
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by sk2101 »

My suggestion to you is to buy a dedicated track car at a lower budget maybe $20-30k and a lower priced commuter car. This will be cheaper in the long run. Trying to find a car that fits both bills is very expensive and always a compromise. Do you want to waste your your expensive Porsche driving in traffic? Expensive parts, tires, etc?

I have been in your position and realized it's just throwing money away. Currently building a Factory Five to be the track car and my next car to drive to work will be a Prius. I found out I have as much fun figuring out how to build a car and wrenching it together as driving it. Driving to work in traffic is not fun so the Prius will have to do it and I will be happy knowing how much money I am saving.
Steady59
Posts: 238
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Steady59 »

Hello track buddy!

Next time your are at the track, check out the Porsche owners. These guys have lots of money for their hobby. Lots. And even more for the required man jewelry.

Listen to this guy and buy somebody else's track prepped Miata. At some tracks, you can rent one for the day if you wanted to try one.
If you want to do serious track time, find a track prepped Miata

I roadraced showroom stock cars for about 15 years and made my way into prepped class racecars. Gained a few track records in an e30 m3 before picking up a former scca it car and running that. I also instructed with BMW, COM and SCDA.

You learn a heck of a lot more in small momentum cars (civic, miata, sentra , 318ti and the like). There's also more competitors if you want to compete.

With a cheap, dedicated racecar, if you put it into a wall, you will be able to afford to write it off, tow it home, pull off whatever parts are usable and sell the rest for scrap.....then find another car.
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tyrion
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by tyrion »

I once read on this board that you can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. While it may not be literally true, I think it makes a good point.

You have a solid income and can afford to buy an expensive car. But you can't do that and save for a house down payment and go on a yearly European vacation.

So it's a matter of priorities. I don't understand the 'car guy' point of view, but that's okay. You get to spend your money how you want. Just understand the ramifications of it.

Like others, I would suggest buying a 'fun' track car and a more reasonable daily driver, rather than a 70k track car and a 5k daily driver.

I like mountain biking. I could (maybe... gulp!) afford a 5k mountain bike. But spending that kind of money on a mountain bike seems insane to me. So I bought a used one for $1200 that retailed for 5k+. It's still a really nice bike, but I don't feel bad when rocks kick up and scratch the paint job. I get to ride it hard and that's the whole point. I'm guessing this would apply to a track car as well, that you would feel better pushing the limits on your 15k M3/Miata/S2000 than you would a 70k Porsche.
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fire5soon
Posts: 607
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by fire5soon »

mmarreco wrote:Currently building a Factory Five to be the track car....
My dream is to build a Factory Five Cobra. Good luck and have fun on the build!
A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do. - Bob Dylan
UADM
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by UADM »

Well, the 20s are your prime years for massive saving and having compounded interest propel you. If you want to buy an incredibly expensive...car... to find happiness, then by all means. It is up to you what your priorities are. I'd consider looking into expanding your interests/hobbies while saving massively while you can. You will be rewarded for the rest of your life.
DFrank
Posts: 474
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by DFrank »

I raced motorcycles in club level roadracing for quite a few years, so I can relate to the joy of pushing a vehicle around the track. I always raced relatively small displacement bikes, and always in relatively stock classes. What I found is that the real joy of racing does not come from racing a faster or better bike. Rather, it comes from developing your skills to the point where you can drive the vehicle at the edge of it's performance envelope on a consistent basis. There was a point in my career when I stepped down from a 600cc class to the 500cc class. I had more fun racing the smaller and arguably slower bike. In a racing environment I found that having a great closely fought race disputing 10th place was as rewarding as winning a race (at different times in my "career" I experienced both). Talk to anybody who has raced on an amateur level and I think you will hear a very similar story.

If you are consistently the fastest guy in north America running a BMW 328, then maybe there might be some justification to buying a better or faster vehicle. If not, you still have some learning to do to develop yourself as a driver. This is especially the case since you are only running the car in track days. OTOH, if you are the fastest guy out there, maybe you should be looking for someone else to buy you a car to drive professionally.

Frankly, I'd suggest you get away from track days and get into actual racing. Sell the BMW and buy a pickup for a daily driver/tow vehicle. Buy a used Miata, Formula Ford, or Spec Racer Ford, or whatever else suits your fancy, and take it to your local SCCA race. You might also consider karting for low cost thrill a minute roadracing. All those alternatives would be cheaper than a new Cayman, and racing will push you to improve your driving skills more than an occasional track day. Real head to head competition will generate more thrills and personal satisfaction than than the ephemeral happiness of a new Porsche in the garage.
Dave
Topic Author
FireSekr
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:54 am

Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

gunn_show wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
snackdog wrote:Have you considered borrowing a suitable car from a friend for track events? Do you know a used Miata is the most fun you can have at a track (and elsewhere) and is also the best value? Also has the best user groups and nicest members.

I recommend no more than 5% of gross salary on a vehicle, so in your case $5,000/year including capex, interest, depreciation, insurance, fuel, taxes, tires, etc. I wouldn't spend more than about $15,000 total on a car in your situation.
I actually haven't tried a Miata, I don't know anyone who has one. I'd be interested in trying one of those or a Honda S2000. The community aspect of the Mazda appeals to me. I've been doing a lot of activities with the BMW and Porsche club, and I've made a lot of friends there. The Mazda crowd does seem like a good group
28yo making 100k and already owning 1 car and 1 motorcycle, asking for a thumbs up on this board to buy a third vehicle for $70k as a sunday "track car" ... yeah that never goes well. Most on this board don't fathom spending 70k on a daily driver with hour commutes, never the less as a part time fun vehicle. That's for millionaires.

I comment as a guy slightly older, slightly more than 2x income, no debts outside mortgage, and my only car is provided by work (luckily a sport model with 270hp). I am also a "car guy" and have always been. I'd be lying if I didn't admit to weekly craigslist eyeballing of Triumph Scramblers and Porsche 911 or Macan's. I can afford both, today, cash. But why? I get it, you're young and have money and I can appreciate the sentiment of now being the apex of fun cars, I do agree and dread the days of Priuses and EVs everywhere, if not already. Boring. Let's hope Tesla gets bigger, better, and cheaper.

My recommendation similar to others would be to get a $10-20k used car in cash, if this is truly your favorite hobby. I owned a 2005 S2000 for 4 years, put only 20k on it, and that sucker was insane. Go drive one, you'll see. Best 6spd manual on the market, and I believe the highest rated output to cylinder ratio out there. With some basic mods I had it at 270hp and would smoke most cars 2x the price. And with a straight pipe it sounds downright mean, like a v6. Unfortunately Honda stopped making them so the avg resale has skyrocketed (believe me, been eyeballing a project s2k also) so you have to set alerts and find the one you want. It's a damn fun car, damn reliable car, huge car club presence, and easy to fix and buy tons of mods for. Either that or go Miata, as they are very similar looking, reliability, and likely 10x easier to find due to production. Save the Porsche for the next round, when you're making 2-3x and have a few cheaper beaters under your belt.
Yeah, I agree the cost doesn't sit well with me, I guess I got a little carried away after driving the car.

I really like the idea of an S2000. I'll take a look and get an idea what they feel like. Nice thing about it is I can just wait until next march and pay for it in cash with my bonus check if I find a cheap enough one.

And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
Topic Author
FireSekr
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:54 am

Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

DFrank wrote:I raced motorcycles in club level roadracing for quite a few years, so I can relate to the joy of pushing a vehicle around the track. I always raced relatively small displacement bikes, and always in relatively stock classes. What I found is that the real joy of racing does not come from racing a faster or better bike. Rather, it comes from developing your skills to the point where you can drive the vehicle at the edge of it's performance envelope on a consistent basis. There was a point in my career when I stepped down from a 600cc class to the 500cc class. I had more fun racing the smaller and arguably slower bike. In a racing environment I found that having a great closely fought race disputing 10th place was as rewarding as winning a race (at different times in my "career" I experienced both). Talk to anybody who has raced on an amateur level and I think you will hear a very similar story.

If you are consistently the fastest guy in north America running a BMW 328, then maybe there might be some justification to buying a better or faster vehicle. If not, you still have some learning to do to develop yourself as a driver. This is especially the case since you are only running the car in track days. OTOH, if you are the fastest guy out there, maybe you should be looking for someone else to buy you a car to drive professionally.

Frankly, I'd suggest you get away from track days and get into actual racing. Sell the BMW and buy a pickup for a daily driver/tow vehicle. Buy a used Miata, Formula Ford, or Spec Racer Ford, or whatever else suits your fancy, and take it to your local SCCA race. You might also consider karting for low cost thrill a minute roadracing. All those alternatives would be cheaper than a new Cayman, and racing will push you to improve your driving skills more than an occasional track day. Real head to head competition will generate more thrills and personal satisfaction than than the ephemeral happiness of a new Porsche in the garage.
DFrank, I think you and I have a very similar mindset. I never thought about actual racing and appreciate the suggestion. To me, the thing I love about tracking is trying to improve my skill, the challenge is what makes it fun. Same for skiing. The last few years I have started to lose interest in skiing because it's no longer a challenge. I can essentially ski any trail with speed and confidence, and while it is still fun and exciting to some degree, without the challenge it's definitely less enjoyable
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Watty
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Watty »

I max out my 401k (18k fed limit) and Roth IRA (5.5K) and save about $2 a month after accounting for expenses.


If you actually been saving $2K a month and not $2 :D then you should just about be able to pay cash for it.

One thing I would look at is what your net worth is now. I would suspect that you might have been working at a similar salary for about five years so you may have had about a half a million dollars in income so far. A lot of that likely went to taxes but if you don't already have a significant net worth then that would be a sign that you are spending too much.

The stock market has done fantastic over the last five year so if you had been saving a lot you could easily have a net worth of around a quarter of a million dollars.
denovo wrote:
JupiterJones wrote:Simple answer: If you have to borrow money to get it, you cannot--by definition--afford it.
You paid cash for your house?
I did not but even with a pessimistic scenario my house will still be worth a lot after 15+ years of daily use with only occasional non-routine maintenance costs.

They are completely different things.
trackjunke
Posts: 8
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by trackjunke »

Let me give you some advice from somebody that has raced and tracked cars extensively......

If you cannot light a match to the car without any qualms whatsoever do not put it on the race track. If it does not have cage, race seats and proper 5 point harnessess. Do not put it on the track. Get a race car such as a spec miata or spec e30 car and just track that.
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tyrion
Posts: 1423
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by tyrion »

ssquared87 wrote:
gunn_show wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
snackdog wrote:Have you considered borrowing a suitable car from a friend for track events? Do you know a used Miata is the most fun you can have at a track (and elsewhere) and is also the best value? Also has the best user groups and nicest members.

I recommend no more than 5% of gross salary on a vehicle, so in your case $5,000/year including capex, interest, depreciation, insurance, fuel, taxes, tires, etc. I wouldn't spend more than about $15,000 total on a car in your situation.
I actually haven't tried a Miata, I don't know anyone who has one. I'd be interested in trying one of those or a Honda S2000. The community aspect of the Mazda appeals to me. I've been doing a lot of activities with the BMW and Porsche club, and I've made a lot of friends there. The Mazda crowd does seem like a good group
28yo making 100k and already owning 1 car and 1 motorcycle, asking for a thumbs up on this board to buy a third vehicle for $70k as a sunday "track car" ... yeah that never goes well. Most on this board don't fathom spending 70k on a daily driver with hour commutes, never the less as a part time fun vehicle. That's for millionaires.

I comment as a guy slightly older, slightly more than 2x income, no debts outside mortgage, and my only car is provided by work (luckily a sport model with 270hp). I am also a "car guy" and have always been. I'd be lying if I didn't admit to weekly craigslist eyeballing of Triumph Scramblers and Porsche 911 or Macan's. I can afford both, today, cash. But why? I get it, you're young and have money and I can appreciate the sentiment of now being the apex of fun cars, I do agree and dread the days of Priuses and EVs everywhere, if not already. Boring. Let's hope Tesla gets bigger, better, and cheaper.

My recommendation similar to others would be to get a $10-20k used car in cash, if this is truly your favorite hobby. I owned a 2005 S2000 for 4 years, put only 20k on it, and that sucker was insane. Go drive one, you'll see. Best 6spd manual on the market, and I believe the highest rated output to cylinder ratio out there. With some basic mods I had it at 270hp and would smoke most cars 2x the price. And with a straight pipe it sounds downright mean, like a v6. Unfortunately Honda stopped making them so the avg resale has skyrocketed (believe me, been eyeballing a project s2k also) so you have to set alerts and find the one you want. It's a damn fun car, damn reliable car, huge car club presence, and easy to fix and buy tons of mods for. Either that or go Miata, as they are very similar looking, reliability, and likely 10x easier to find due to production. Save the Porsche for the next round, when you're making 2-3x and have a few cheaper beaters under your belt.
Yeah, I agree the cost doesn't sit well with me, I guess I got a little carried away after driving the car.

I really like the idea of an S2000. I'll take a look and get an idea what they feel like. Nice thing about it is I can just wait until next march and pay for it in cash with my bonus check if I find a cheap enough one.

And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
Wait... you had to finance a bicycle?

I know nice road bikes are expensive, but I would encourage you to think about how much you are spending on your hobbies and how you are paying for it. With 2k in monthly savings, you should be paying for things out of pocket, not having to finance them. And really, you should have a large emergency fund.
Cindyjrn
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Cindyjrn »

His bike is financed at 0%. Why wouldn't you use somebody's money for that? We switched from Sprint to T-Mobile last year and had to buy all new phones because Sprint phones don't have a removable SIM. The price of phones was the same whether we purchased them that day or paid for them over 24 months. The phone's cash price was literally divided by 24 and added to your bill. Your damn right I'm going to use T-Mobiles money for free for 24 months. There's no contract. I pay for the phone whether I have service or not and I can cancel service whenever I'd like. When the phones are paid for, my bill goes down $65 which is the monthly payment for 4 smart phones. People on the site argue about not paying off your mortgage early if you have a 3% loan, why wouldn't I use free money?
DFrank
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:44 pm
Location: North Idaho

Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by DFrank »

ssquared87 wrote:DFrank, I think you and I have a very similar mindset. I never thought about actual racing and appreciate the suggestion. To me, the thing I love about tracking is trying to improve my skill, the challenge is what makes it fun. Same for skiing. The last few years I have started to lose interest in skiing because it's no longer a challenge. I can essentially ski any trail with speed and confidence, and while it is still fun and exciting to some degree, without the challenge it's definitely less enjoyable
Sounds like it. Over time I found three activities that would drive me into the zone where the only thing that exists is this moment: roadracing, skiing (on trails that challenge my abilities), and rock climbing. When you are in that zone there is nothing else in the world, there is no perceptible difference between thinking and doing, and you are performing at your absolute peak. Definitely a rush to be there.

Seriously though, give some thought to racing on some level. I think you will find it much more rewarding than track days. You might start by visiting a local SCCA or karting race. Walk around the pits and chat with the racers. I think you'll find them to be helpful, and at least in the motorcycle roadracing world there is a very close camaraderie among the racers.
Dave
randomguy
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by randomguy »

BogleMe wrote:You will attract very negative attention with a flashy car. Cops will be thrilled to ticket you and you will increase the probability that psychotics will find refuge in causing you or your family problems - from vandalism to the more sinister.
A low end porsche isn't a very flashy car. We are talking about a 70k car. Those are everywhere in my part of the world between the suvs, telsas, and S classes.

People are looking at this car they way they look at the way they look at a commuter car. That is wrong. This is a hobby. The questions are can you spend ~5k-15/yr on your hobby (doesn't matter if it is taking your car to the track, traveling, playing golf, photography skiing,....) and does that maximize your enjoyment in life (i.e. are you willing to work another 10 years to enjoy this hobby, would you have more fun with a cheaper car).

As far as a car, you should go to an autoboard and ask for recommendations for a track car and give them your perferences (manual versus PDK, turbo vs natural, 0-100 versus handling) and see what people suggest. There are s lot of fun options out there that may or may not fit your needs.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Since its been mentioned twice now,....and is part of my name.... An already completed Factory Five Cobra in track trim would be way cheaper than the Porsche......and 10 seconds a lap faster at 2300 pounds. Or buy my Elise (I will be selling it), put in a rev 400 intercooled supercharger kit and be fast on straights and really fast in corners.

I have tuition bills to pay soon and will replace the already sold 350z and the Elise with a disposable mazda 3 or civic or the like for $10k
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
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tyrion
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by tyrion »

Cindyjrn wrote:His bike is financed at 0%. Why wouldn't you use somebody's money for that? We switched from Sprint to T-Mobile last year and had to buy all new phones because Sprint phones don't have a removable SIM. The price of phones was the same whether we purchased them that day or paid for them over 24 months. The phone's cash price was literally divided by 24 and added to your bill. Your damn right I'm going to use T-Mobiles money for free for 24 months. There's no contract. I pay for the phone whether I have service or not and I can cancel service whenever I'd like. When the phones are paid for, my bill goes down $65 which is the monthly payment for 4 smart phones. People on the site argue about not paying off your mortgage early if you have a 3% loan, why wouldn't I use free money?
Ah, I didn't see the 0% in the original post. It still strikes me as odd to finance a bike. The OP has a lot of expensive hobbies. I do think it's worthwhile to consider the impact these will have on his overall financial outlook over the next 10-30 years.
Cindyjrn
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Cindyjrn »

tyrion wrote:
Cindyjrn wrote:His bike is financed at 0%. Why wouldn't you use somebody's money for that? We switched from Sprint to T-Mobile last year and had to buy all new phones because Sprint phones don't have a removable SIM. The price of phones was the same whether we purchased them that day or paid for them over 24 months. The phone's cash price was literally divided by 24 and added to your bill. Your damn right I'm going to use T-Mobiles money for free for 24 months. There's no contract. I pay for the phone whether I have service or not and I can cancel service whenever I'd like. When the phones are paid for, my bill goes down $65 which is the monthly payment for 4 smart phones. People on the site argue about not paying off your mortgage early if you have a 3% loan, why wouldn't I use free money?
Ah, I didn't see the 0% in the original post. It still strikes me as odd to finance a bike. The OP has a lot of expensive hobbies. I do think it's worthwhile to consider the impact these will have on his overall financial outlook over the next 10-30 years.
Agreed. I was certainly not advocating the spending money on a Porsche or $10000 bikes, just bringing up the fact that he got free money.
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gunn_show
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by gunn_show »

ssquared87 wrote: Yeah, I agree the cost doesn't sit well with me, I guess I got a little carried away after driving the car.

I really like the idea of an S2000. I'll take a look and get an idea what they feel like. Nice thing about it is I can just wait until next march and pay for it in cash with my bonus check if I find a cheap enough one.

And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
ssquared87 wrote: DFrank, I think you and I have a very similar mindset. I never thought about actual racing and appreciate the suggestion. To me, the thing I love about tracking is trying to improve my skill, the challenge is what makes it fun. Same for skiing. The last few years I have started to lose interest in skiing because it's no longer a challenge. I can essentially ski any trail with speed and confidence, and while it is still fun and exciting to some degree, without the challenge it's definitely less enjoyable
Give the s2k a look and drive, curious to get your thoughts. I'd love another one.

I have a lot of friends with super expensive road bikes, so I get it. I bought a hybrid off c-list recently and love it.

Skiing is also a top 3 hobby for me (snowboarding) and I have similar skills in terms of being challenged. Can go right to the top on first run and jump off the cornice without worry. For me now it's about an annual guys trip to a big top-rated resort to find a new challenge, hang with the boys, get away, and travel. We've done Whistler quite a few times, Vail, Mammoth, Steamboat, Park City, and hoping to do Telluride next year and Jackson soon after. That keeps the hobby fun for me.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
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