Convince me not to buy Porsche

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TareNeko
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by TareNeko »

ssquared87 wrote:And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
Today, just like in any other day in history of man kind, pretty much anything can be had for any level of expense. I might be off here, but seems like you are trying to live a life beyond your means. Your attitude seems like "everything is expensive, and I need these things and they need to be high end models".
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mmmodem
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by mmmodem »

ssquared87 wrote:The entire auto industry is moving in this direction of using turbos, etc for environmental purposes, and frankly this is one of the last cars that will have a non-turbo mid-engine, rear wheel drive layout, manual transmission and weigh just about 3k lbs ...<snip... I have this belief that we're at the apex of fun to drive cars, and I'd like to entertain my passion for driving while I still can before everything turns to electric self driving vehicles, but I have a hard time spending such a huge amount of money.
I'm going to ignore the cost and let others say you can't afford it.
1.
Porsche Cayman GT4 0-60 = 4.2 seconds
Tesla Model S P85D 0-60 = 3.1 seconds
Sure Model S is a heavy sedan but the whole notion of electric vehicles are boring is not true. If 0-60 times don't matter to you, there is a Tesla roadster as well. The 70D can be had for $70k after rebates.

2.
Just because there are 3000 Caymans made doesn't mean you'll miss out on the last car of its type. You can still buy it used many years later. I grew up in the 80's watching Back to the Future. I can still buy used Deloreans with a 0-60 time of 10.5 seconds. That's slower than my Prius. Again, this whole notion of electric vehicles are boring needs to be laid to rest. By today's standards, a Prius is not exciting. Pit it against a sports car of the 80's and it'll be a rock star. What's the point? Not all cars get more boring. Most get better.
Last edited by mmmodem on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Greatness
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Greatness »

You are living too close to the edge (financially). If you get laid off, hurt, or life happens, you will be in a world of hurt. This is the problem with many people. They live for today and not tomorrow. Dreaming is good. IF you want it so bad, no problem. Put money aside each month and when you have all of it to pay in cash, then buy it. I am sure, by that time, you would have changed your mind and become a bit more rational; if not practical.

This whole ME generation, or I deserve it cause I earned the money is getting a bit out of hand. No one is thinking about tomorrow. To spend more than you are making (after taxes) is just crazy and irresponsible. If you had a paid off house. Made 250k per year, and had a few hundred grand in an emergency fund / market, that would be something different. The fact of the matter is, you BORROWED for your home. You will BORROW for the car. After sales tax, the car will be significantly more than your salary (around 65k after taxes I project). After you drive it off the lot, it will lost another 10 - 20% of it's value.

Simply said: YOU CANNOT AFFORD IT!
opus360
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by opus360 »

My two suggestions are:

- Buy a dedicated track car. Many already have suggested this route and have offered thoughts on what car to buy. You got to be able to push the car to the limit without worrying about not having sufficient safety features or damaging your car. You'll need roll cage, window nets, HANS, etc. While it could be street legal, all that safety features make the car practically unusable on street. You'll have even more fun that way.

- Have you looked into go-karting? It's cheaper and faster than most cars around. Many F1 drivers started this way and still use go-karts to practice in off-season. I was on a track day event once with a guy who used to train one of the Andretti family, and this was his suggestion if you really want to get serious about track driving.
Last edited by opus360 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sambb
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by sambb »

I have had all sorts of cars, incl a porsche GTS

Remember this, it is super fun to have a porsche in your 20s. It is awesome. It may cause your financial goals to be behind, but there is no substitute for a sports car as a young gentleman.

I blew money in my 20s - trips to vegas, dates, vacations, splurges on women, wine and other things. It was fun. I cant replicate those days now that I am in my 40s.

If you are willing to sacrifice financially in the future.. you might have a heck of a lot of fun now..

I would buy slightly preowned however. One year old. Check out the porsche website and search.

Yes, you cant afford it. Watch the movie "risky business" - an iconic movie of my generation. Sometimes you have to say "what the heck".
Last edited by sambb on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

Greatness wrote:You are living too close to the edge (financially). If you get laid off, hurt, or life happens, you will be in a world of hurt. This is the problem with many people. They live for today and not tomorrow. Dreaming is good. IF you want it so bad, no problem. Put money aside each month and when you have all of it to pay in cash, then buy it. I am sure, by that time, you would have changed your mind and become a bit more rational; if not practical.

This whole ME generation, or I deserve it cause I earned the money is getting a bit out of hand. No one is thinking about tomorrow. To spend more than you are making (after taxes) is just crazy and irresponsible. If you had a paid off house. Made 250k per year, and had a few hundred grand in an emergency fund / market, that would be something different. The fact of the matter is, you BORROWED for your home. You will BORROW for the car. After sales tax, the car will be significantly more than your salary (around 65k after taxes I project). After you drive it off the lot, it will lost another 10 - 20% of it's value.

Simply said: YOU CANNOT AFFORD IT!
Have no idea who's post you're replying to but it wasn't mine. The car is about 60% of my annual income and I do have quite a bit in retirement assets, HSA, and taxable. I didn't borrow for a home because I rent for $800 a month including water/gas/sewage and internet
smackboy1
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by smackboy1 »

If you want a Porsche, get one. You probably won't regret it. Whereas if you get a lesser car, you might. I drive a 2003 911 and it brings me smiles every time I get behind the wheel.

Don't buy a new Cayman (Boxster coupe), buy a 911!! :mrgreen:

Yes, the handling is great (drove one at Skip Barber), but unless all you drive is autoX, there's something about gobs of hp and torque flying down the main straight.

To quote Jeremy Clarkson:

"What every Boxster does - is sit outside your house reminding you that you couldn't quite afford a 911."

"I don't want a Porsche Boxster because James May has one. And there is, quite literally, nothing in his life that I covet."

Consider spending the money on a pre-owned car. I've owned 2 pre-owned 911's and paid around the same as for a brand new minivan. The other things is that if you've driven track days then you know that you cannot leave your car stock. It's all about the mods. I have race seats, 5 pt harnesses, factory "race" suspension, sport exhaust etc.. Spending extra $ modding a brand new car just doesn't feel right. If you keep to your original budget you could probably swing a late model GT3 or Turbo.

Join rennlist.com and renntech.org to learn a bit about Porsches before buying.

WAIT: I just reread the header. In that case replace "Porsche" above with "BMW" and "911" with "M3 Coupe"! :sharebeer
Last edited by smackboy1 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

gunn_show wrote:
Give the s2k a look and drive, curious to get your thoughts. I'd love another one.

I have a lot of friends with super expensive road bikes, so I get it. I bought a hybrid off c-list recently and love it.

Skiing is also a top 3 hobby for me (snowboarding) and I have similar skills in terms of being challenged. Can go right to the top on first run and jump off the cornice without worry. For me now it's about an annual guys trip to a big top-rated resort to find a new challenge, hang with the boys, get away, and travel. We've done Whistler quite a few times, Vail, Mammoth, Steamboat, Park City, and hoping to do Telluride next year and Jackson soon after. That keeps the hobby fun for me.
I'll try and find a few to try out and let you know what I think. The ones I saw a while back did seem a little expensive given the age but I'll take a closer look.

Luckily biking is somewhat of a cheap hobby. I bought a previous year model bike for $4,500 instead of $6k and ride it 3-4 days a week. Hopefully it'll last me another 10-20 years so the only thing i'll have to pay for in that hobby is clothing once in a while and some maintenance items.

If you haven't been to Jackson Hole, GO!!! It's the only mountain I've been going to that gives me a bit of a challenge. It's another world compared to Park City and Vail, trust me. I haven't been to Whistler yet, but I just moved to Seattle and its about a 4 hour drive from me, so I bet I'll be spending a bit of time up there next season
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

Everyone has been providing great guidance and suggestions, really appreciating reading all the points of view here! :)
opus360
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by opus360 »

ssquared87 wrote:
Buying used is possible, but not likely...only 3K cayman's have been produced a year, 1.5K have a manual transmission, and Porsche has so many options that finding one with the things you want is a challenge.
.
It's more readily available than you think. I just looked at Rennlist, limit search to Cayman and manual 6-speed. 137 Caymans up for sale.

http://rennlist.com/forums/marketplace/cars/search/

BTW, if you put an order now for Cayman GT4, it might be 2017 before you get your car. So, you'll have two years to decide. :D
MrNewEngland
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by MrNewEngland »

Don't buy the Porsche. Not because it's frivolous... I think you should do what makes you happy in this world. [OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]
randomguy
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by randomguy »

mmmodem wrote: I'm going to ignore the cost and let others say you can't afford it.
1.
Porsche Cayman GT4 0-60 = 4.2 seconds
Tesla Model S P85D 0-60 = 3.1 seconds
Sure Model S is a heavy sedan but the whole notion of electric vehicles are boring is not true. If 0-60 times don't matter to you, there is a Tesla roadster as well. The 70D can be had for $70k after rebates.

.
0-60 is one of the least important things in a track car. The size and mass of the Tesla put it several notches back in handling which is where the real fun is. You could probably make killer track electric car (Tesla that's 20" shorter and with half the battery pack would be good start) by in general that car isn't out there yet
easye418
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by easye418 »

ssquared87 wrote:Yes, I know, another one of these threads. Here's the deal:

I'm 28 working in the tech/consulting industry taking in about $105k +potential 10% bonus a year and keep my expenses quite low. I max out my 401k (18k fed limit) and Roth IRA (5.5K) and save about $2 a month after accounting for expenses. 6 months emergency fund in savings account, and 1.5x salary in retirement. Not near term plans to buy a home or any other major purchases.

I have been spending a lot of time tracking my car (bmw 328) but would like something geared more to tracking rather than a fairly big 4 door car.
Younger, Single, good job.... I wouldn't tell you one way or another because you ultimately live your own life. Do it if it makes you happy and you will enjoy it.

You are asking a subjective question to an extremely conservative forum, rightfully so given the topic and theory. You seem to know it is the wrong decision, but want that second opinion. Trust your gut.

This forum gave me the slap in the face to get my **** together, which I can't thank enough. However, I will still live my life, just think about it differently now.
Last edited by easye418 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
zkzkzk
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by zkzkzk »

Don't do it. Keep your BMW and get a Miata for the track, they are a ton of fun for cheap. The car's themselves are cheap, parts are cheap, insurance is cheap. Don't under estimate them because of the low cost. Brush a wall with a new Porsche (any porsche for that matter) and your 1K a month budget is out the window. Why risk it? Why spend your time worrying about it wrecking it? You said you could work on it yourself, a used Miata or maybe even a Factory Five Spec kit would be right in your wheelhouse.
Buy a used Miata and drive the crap out of it without breaking the bank and worrying about wrecking it.
You MIGHT have had better luck asking this on the BH board if you'd said it was for use as a DD, maybe, lol
Z
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gunn_show
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by gunn_show »

ssquared87 wrote:I'll try and find a few to try out and let you know what I think. The ones I saw a while back did seem a little expensive given the age but I'll take a closer look.

Luckily biking is somewhat of a cheap hobby. I bought a previous year model bike for $4,500 instead of $6k and ride it 3-4 days a week. Hopefully it'll last me another 10-20 years so the only thing i'll have to pay for in that hobby is clothing once in a while and some maintenance items.

If you haven't been to Jackson Hole, GO!!! It's the only mountain I've been going to that gives me a bit of a challenge. It's another world compared to Park City and Vail, trust me. I haven't been to Whistler yet, but I just moved to Seattle and its about a 4 hour drive from me, so I bet I'll be spending a bit of time up there next season

Well we can each say "why haven't you gone to X" then if you leave in SEA yet haven't hit Whistler, widely considered the #1 ski resort in the world. One of my best buds moved up there and goes all the time, sub 4-hour drive easy, and I can fly into Bellingham easy and cheap and go with him. Your #1 trip for next season should be getting a sick condo in the square and spending a long weekend. Eat at Earls and drink at the Longhorn, only two places you need to know from a young dude's perspective.

As for JAX, yeah, we had it on the radar the last two years, but weather crapped the bed for snow so we bailed, too expensive especially if the snow is mediocre. So it is on the top 2 list going forward. A buddy has a 30+ person trip planned for Telluride next year, so I will probably piggy back that and do JAX next.

You take a job at amazon? Your age and income is nearly the same as my buddy's was when he moved to SEA for amazon gig.
"The best life hack of all is to just put the work in and never give up." Bas Rutten
PatrickA5
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by PatrickA5 »

I say go for it! Thirty years later, you'll be telling your kids how stupid you were for blowing all that money on a car and it's a great life lesson. Besides, you'll have some fun blowing that money! I bought a vette when I was 25. Spent half a paycheck on that thing. Had a blast for a couple of years, but eventually I overcame my early midlife crisis and started seeing things a little differently. From a financial perspective, what you're wanting to do is really stupid. But, you know that, already. Might as well have some fun now and make up for it later.
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tyrion
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by tyrion »

As one of my college friends used to say... "I can sleep in my car, but you can't drive your house'. So yeah, go for it. It turned out alright for him.

Or you could start saving up money for when you settle down, buy a house, have/adopt kids. If that sort of thing is in your future.
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HomerJ
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by HomerJ »

ssquared87 wrote:And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
There are a ton of cheap hobbies.... It's okay that the hobbies that you like are expensive, but don't act like you don't have a choice, and anything that is fun is expensive.
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babington
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by babington »

People say life is too short to not enjoy things. But try this. Do the math to figure out how much you make per hour. Multiply that number by the difference in cost between a Porsche and a car half the cost. Then ask: am I willing to spend xxxxxxx hours of my life for this luxury. By my (very rough) calculations drawing from your salary, the difference between a $50k car and $25k car is about 14 weeks. Are you willing to trade those 14 weeks for the luxury? If yes, do it. I wouldn't. Life is too short!
ShiftF5
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by ShiftF5 »

If you spend it, you wont have it invested working for you.

You've got to decide what is more important for you.

We can't do that for you.

It's your money and your decision to live with.

What are you going to do?
Last edited by ShiftF5 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WhyNotUs
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by WhyNotUs »

The adult me says don't do it, put stash more cash and let it ride for you to buy a house later or start a business.

Having said that, when I was your age I raced an Alfa Romeo and later a 914/6. I bought both used. The 914 resold for more than I had into it. The Alfa was another story. My simple lesson was that racing a daily driver was a losing strategy. Changing wheels at the track and worrying about my car being available for work on Monday were big limiters.
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
surfhb
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by surfhb »

You must love your job alot because the current vehicle you're driving is costing you 1-2 years of retirement time. The Porsche will cost you about 5 or so years at your current income level.

Have fun working for the man Bro! :D All this car and bike buying is probably adding over a decade to your working life. :sharebeer
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Dutch
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Dutch »

Don't do it.

If you get a Porsche in your 20s, you'll have nowhere to go when you hit your midlife crisis.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

Dutch wrote:Don't do it.

If you get a Porsche in your 20s, you'll have nowhere to go when you hit your midlife crisis.
Hahah so true
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

surfhb wrote:You must love your job alot because the current vehicle you're driving is costing you 1-2 years of retirement time. The Porsche will cost you about 5 or so years at your current income level.

Have fun working for the man Bro! :D All this car and bike buying is probably adding over a decade to your working life. :sharebeer
Not exactly sure how, my car cost about the same as a new civic. I bought it CPO for 23k all in, and I'm saving/investing about 45-50% of my gross
midmoder
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by midmoder »

You don't make enough money to buy a $70k Porsche, especially if you want to race it. If you were making $250k, then maybe. I agree with others -- get a used Miata for racing. Check out the Forums on Miata.net (http://forum.miata.net/). There's both a Performance Driving and Track Driving forum.

If you want a cheaper daily driver -- cheap to buy, cheap to own -- that's a BLAST to drive, look at the new Miata. The fourth generation body is just being released this summer:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/05/2016 ... pre-order/

Miatas (I've had 3) have been my daily driver for 30 years, but I recently sold my 2011. I'd be all over this new one, but I'm looking at 5+ years before I'll need a car again.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

HomerJ wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:And just to clarify, don't have a motorcycle, its my road bike...I ride about 150 miles a week so I got a nice bike. Biking cars and skiing are my hobbies, and unfortunately they are not cheap, but what is these days?
There are a ton of cheap hobbies.... It's okay that the hobbies that you like are expensive, but don't act like you don't have a choice, and anything that is fun is expensive.
Agreed, I've been getting into hiking since I moved to Seattle, so that is pretty cheap and enjoyable. One of my roommates likes to build stuff around the house so sometimes I give him a hand and that keeps me busy too.

Skiing can be really expensive, but I haven't been going all that much the last few years, 2 maybe 3 weekend trips within driving distance and maybe a 4-5 day trip out west. I don't pay for hotels or flights when I travel because I'm lucky enough to have a ton of airline/hotel points that I racked up during my time in consulting. In 2011 I was on a project in London for a year and also had a project in Ukraine so I was flying a ton between London, Ukraine, Chicago and New York. I think the last time I actually paid for airfare or a hotel out of pocket was 5 or 6 years ago

I've been thinking about trying kayaking too. I've done it a few times and its a lot of fun, seems cheap just need to get a kayak for a few hundred bucks on craigslist and you're good to go
surfhb
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by surfhb »

ssquared87 wrote:
surfhb wrote:You must love your job alot because the current vehicle you're driving is costing you 1-2 years of retirement time. The Porsche will cost you about 5 or so years at your current income level.

Have fun working for the man Bro! :D All this car and bike buying is probably adding over a decade to your working life. :sharebeer
Not exactly sure how, my car cost about the same as a new civic. I bought it CPO for 23k all in, and I'm saving/investing about 45-50% of my gross
Exactly....never buy new vehicles! Right now you're paying close to $1000 a month a vehicles.....thats absurd IMO. You will need to do some math but $1000 a month not working for you over several years adds up.

Maybe its me. Im not really into cars and my time doing stuff other than working for someone else is more valuable.

Id personally rather put that much monthly income into a real estate portfolio. Driving a 10 year old Civic and 6 or 7 properties in your pocket giving you passive income? The chicks will dig it! :sharebeer
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

gunn_show wrote:
Well we can each say "why haven't you gone to X" then if you leave in SEA yet haven't hit Whistler, widely considered the #1 ski resort in the world.
Just moved here in April, otherwise I def would have been to Whistler! Next season (assuming there's snow) I'll definitely get a condo there with a few friends.
gunn_show wrote:A buddy has a 30+ person trip planned for Telluride next year, so I will probably piggy back that and do JAX next.
I hear Telluride is one of the best but I've always been too lazy to make the trip out there. Seems like they have a lot more direct flights now compared to when I checked a few years ago, so maybe I'll head over there the year after I try Whistler.
gunn_show wrote: You take a job at amazon? Your age and income is nearly the same as my buddy's was when he moved to SEA for amazon gig.
No, I'm with a consulting firm that does a lot of technology work. I specialize in Business Intelligence and data visualization. I'm really enjoying it right now, fun field to be in with great co-workers and endless opportunities to learn. My focus right now though is less on learning new technologies, and more on taking on a leadership role within the firm. I want to get the experience of leading others and helping to grow the business rather than focus on development 100% of the time. I'm very lucky to have mentors within my company who are guiding me and providing me with projects/opportunities that are helping me develop these skills.
sambb
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by sambb »

It is possible to save more money for retirement and give up expenditures in your 20s. On the other hand, my frivolous spending in my 20s gave me experiences that would be meaningless in my 40s.
Yes, the porsche is frivolous. Is the experience worth the expense?
I one time went to europe for a week at age 23. I met someone there, and decided to stay 2 months. Of course It cost me a lot more money. And importantly, I don't care how much that money would have grown for retirement - yes, I don't care how much that splurge would have returned in a vanguard index fund. it is irrelevant financially - the experience was worth it, far beyond any financial return. It seems like bogleheads want to box you into the future value of the money. However, your experience has future value also.

I don't know if the porsche is right for you, but if it adds a special experience that makes it worth the expense, then go for it. Only you can answer that question. In the end, it is always cheaper to sit at home or take the bus or drive an old car.
Last edited by sambb on Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FireSekr
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

surfhb wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
surfhb wrote:You must love your job alot because the current vehicle you're driving is costing you 1-2 years of retirement time. The Porsche will cost you about 5 or so years at your current income level.

Have fun working for the man Bro! :D All this car and bike buying is probably adding over a decade to your working life. :sharebeer
Not exactly sure how, my car cost about the same as a new civic. I bought it CPO for 23k all in, and I'm saving/investing about 45-50% of my gross
Exactly....never buy new vehicles! Right now you're paying close to $1000 a month a vehicles.....thats absurd IMO. You will need to do some math but $1000 a month not working for you over several years adds up.

Maybe its me. Im not really into cars and my time doing stuff other than working for someone else is more valuable.

Id personally rather put that much monthly income into a real estate portfolio. Driving a 10 year old Civic and 6 or 7 properties in your pocket giving you passive income? The chicks will dig it! :sharebeer
Lol so true, and I guess I confused things with the $425 a month for a bike...it's not a motorcycle, its a bicycle. I got it for $4,500 last year and then spent a few hundred more on clothes/bike shoes etc. Was going to pay cash but it was 0% for 12 months so why not. My last payment for the bike is in 3 weeks and I've been looking forward to putting the extra $425 a month into investments.

Biking is one of my other hobbies and I'm hoping that the bike will last 10-20 years, so I don't really see it as an extravagant purchase. Plus I don't have to pay for a gym membership since I get all my exercise on my bike rides!
surfhb
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by surfhb »

ssquared87 wrote:
surfhb wrote:
ssquared87 wrote:
surfhb wrote:You must love your job alot because the current vehicle you're driving is costing you 1-2 years of retirement time. The Porsche will cost you about 5 or so years at your current income level.

Have fun working for the man Bro! :D All this car and bike buying is probably adding over a decade to your working life. :sharebeer
Not exactly sure how, my car cost about the same as a new civic. I bought it CPO for 23k all in, and I'm saving/investing about 45-50% of my gross
Exactly....never buy new vehicles! Right now you're paying close to $1000 a month a vehicles.....thats absurd IMO. You will need to do some math but $1000 a month not working for you over several years adds up.

Maybe its me. Im not really into cars and my time doing stuff other than working for someone else is more valuable.

Id personally rather put that much monthly income into a real estate portfolio. Driving a 10 year old Civic and 6 or 7 properties in your pocket giving you passive income? The chicks will dig it! :sharebeer
Lol so true, and I guess I confused things with the $425 a month for a bike...it's not a motorcycle, its a bicycle. I got it for $4,500 last year and then spent a few hundred more on clothes/bike shoes etc. Was going to pay cash but it was 0% for 12 months so why not. My last payment for the bike is in 3 weeks and I've been looking forward to putting the extra $425 a month into investments.

Biking is one of my other hobbies and I'm hoping that the bike will last 10-20 years, so I don't really see it as an extravagant purchase. Plus I don't have to pay for a gym membership since I get all my exercise on my bike rides!
You paid $4500 for a bicycle?! I get it though. I surf and would love to buy a custom Cooperfish but I hold back because a used board off craigslist is just as much fun.

Your spending is over the top my friend

Are you going to have the same attitude with a home?

BELIEVE ME! When youre 45 with kids you will have wished you saved and invested more and spent your money more wisely. Working day in and day out for decades gets old :happy
Last edited by surfhb on Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

sambb wrote:It is possible to save more money for retirement and give up expenditures in your 20s. On the other hand, my frivolous spending in my 20s gave me experiences that would be meaningless in my 40s.
Yes, the porsche is frivolous. Is the experience worth the expense?
I one time went to europe for a week at age 23. I met someone there, and decided to stay 2 months It cost me a lot more money. And importantly, I don't care how much that money would have grown for retirement - yes, I don't care how much that splurge would have returned in a vanguard index fund. it is irrelevant financially - the experience was worth it, far beyond any financial return. It seems like bogleheads want to box you into the future value of the money. However, your experience has future value also.

I don't know if the porsche is right for you, but if it adds a special experience that makes it worth the expense, then go for it. Only you can answer that question. In the end, it is always cheaper to sit at home or take the bus or drive an old car.
This is a great post, and I think as a Boglehead and a finance major, this is exactly why I struggle with things and sometimes miss out. I'm always thinking of future value. I think that's a good quality but I usually err on the cautious side. Going with your heart once in a while is important as long as you don't do it all the time, but its really hard for me to balance it out. Luckily I know what I enjoy and have splurged occasionally on those things. I dont have any regrets yet, every time I have spent a little more than I should on an experience, I've never looked back.

Will the Porsche provide me with that sort of enjoyment and tons of experiences? I have to think long and hard about it, and whether alternatives like the Miata or S2000 as others have recommended here will bring me just as much fun. At least with this sort of purchase, the experiences continue over many years, it's not a one time event.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

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delete
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

surfhb wrote: You paid $4500 for a bicycle?! Your spending is over the top my friend

Are you going to have the same attitude with a home?

BELIEVE ME! When youre 45 with kids you will have wished you saved and invested more and spent your money more wisely. Working day in and day out for decades gets old :happy
A basic road bike starts at about $1,800. Around $3,500-$5,000 is average for people who ride a lot. When you ride for over 100 miles a week (I was up to 250 at one point but have been a bit busy to do that much) having something you enjoy being on and is comfortable is quite essential.

I have no desire to buy a home. I rent an apartment for $800 and would be happy having an apartment half the size because its not important to me. I value experiences more than things like a home or fancy clothes. My bike allows me the experience of being outside with my friends and getting exercise. Once you buy a bike you're set, there really aren't any expenses other than keeping the chain greased and clean, replacing tires and brake pads which comes out to less than $100 a year.

Most people pay $40 or so a month for a gym. If my bike lasts 10 years (which it should easily), I've essentially paid the same thing for my bike as someone paid for a gym membership. Is that really that "over the top"

I don't know maybe I'm being defensive and the bike is extravagant, but that and skiing are really the only things i spend money on other than food and rent. Tracking the car hasn't been expensive yet because I've been using my daily driver and haven't been driving hard enough to cause much wear and tear
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (car purchase decision).

Whatever you decide to get, consider taking a course which teaches how to really drive your car.

A few years ago, a friend of mine purchased a BMW. Negotiated with purchase was a 3 day course at the BMW Performance Driving School in South Carolina. He and his wife made a short vacation out of the trip.

Think you know how to drive? Think again. Take this course and learn what your car is really capable of. You'll also become a better driver.

From another perspective, are all of those fancy TV commercials influencing your decision? Think how your car would look sitting in a traffic jam. Then, make a decision.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by FireSekr »

LadyGeek wrote:This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (car purchase decision).

Whatever you decide to get, consider taking a course which teaches how to really drive your car.

A few years ago, a friend of mine purchased a BMW. Negotiated with purchase was a 3 day course at the BMW Performance Driving School in South Carolina. He and his wife made a short vacation out of the trip.

Think you know how to drive? Think again. Take this course and learn what your car is really capable of. You'll also become a better driver.

From another perspective, are all of those fancy TV commercials influencing your decision? Think how your car would look sitting in a traffic jam. Then, make a decision.
Excellent point! I actually have taken a course offered by the BMW Car Club. It was $135 for the whole day including lunch and an instructor for the whole time. I learned a lot, but I am sure there is a lot more to learn in a 3 day course rather than the 1 day course. They have a more advanced 1 day course for the same price that I planned on taking in August
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Wolkenspiel »

I spent a lot of money on cars in my 20's and 30's, and unlike the dire predictions from the lovely fellows here, haven't come to regret it. I have extremely fond memories of a few years in a Lotus Elise, about as un-Boglehead as they come. HOWEVER, I think borrowing a significant amount of money for a car that you want to track (seriously) is nuts. At that point, I think we're talking about a toy that you should be willing to write off with a shrug - not likely with a $80k Cayman with 5 years of payments remaining (even taking the availability of HPDE policies into account).
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by LadyGeek »

ssquared87 wrote:Excellent point! I actually have taken a course offered by the BMW Car Club. It was $135 for the whole day including lunch and an instructor for the whole time. I learned a lot, but I am sure there is a lot more to learn in a 3 day course rather than the 1 day course. They have a more advanced 1 day course for the same price that I planned on taking in August
I may have been mistaken, as I only see 2-day courses listed. However, it was an experience he'll never forget.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by TareNeko »

ssquared87 wrote:Excellent point! I actually have taken a course offered by the BMW Car Club. It was $135 for the whole day including lunch and an instructor for the whole time. I learned a lot, but I am sure there is a lot more to learn in a 3 day course rather than the 1 day course. They have a more advanced 1 day course for the same price that I planned on taking in August
$135 sounds like the basic high performance training (or car control clinic) where they teach students understeer/oversteer, smooth controls, looking ahead, throtte-steer etc on a parking lot or old air field.

Usually, track days means lapping on an actual race-track. They are referred as HPDE (high performance driving event). There are 3-4 groups based on skill level. Instructors help novices, where usually A and B are more advanced groups. They start around $200-250.

So which one did you do? The car control clinic, or HPDE?

If I'm not mistaken, what LadyGeek refers to is BMWs own training program which is held at South Carolina where the BMW factory is. The above two options I mention is usually run by the local BMW or Porsche car club.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by undertheradar »

Life is a compromise.
I wanted a 911 when I was 26, and spent many a night searching for that elusive low mileage, low price unicorn. At the end of the day, I realized that I didn't want to eat PB&Js for the next year so I searched for something similar that fit in with my modest mortgage, 401k, Roth, and social life. It was 2001 and BMW began getting the E36 M Coupes off lease. These were the S52 engines identical to the ones in the M3 of the same vintage. As you're probably aware, these are pretty bullet-proof, single VANOS engines and last with proper maintenance. Add to the fact that they are unique (a couple thousand built - I rarely see another on the road), reliable, and have an awesome owner's group. Similar in size to an S2000 and Miata, but faster in all aspects. Now I'm not saying this is the car for you (kinda :) ) but it was a great compromise for me at the time. I got great performance at half the price of a used 911, plus the BMWCCA has an excellent club magazine.

I then picked up a 1988 Jetta and used it as my commuter for 10 years and over 200k miles. Maintained this vehicle myself and allowed the Bimmer to keep its value while I continued to sock away for retirement and have a fun 20s. The heart wants what the heart wants, but I would offer that swinging for the fences may not be in your best interest right now.

My $.02
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by bottlecap »

"Convince me not to buy a Porsche"

But why would I spend time trying to convince you not to do something you seem pretty intent on? It's frivolous and really not a smart thing to finance, but it will be fun for a while. Have fun!

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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Nicolas »

If I were you I'd try to forget about it. Don't do it, it won't be worth it in the end. The desire will pass with time. You're better off investing the money for the long run.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by TomatoTomahto »

denovo wrote:
JupiterJones wrote:Simple answer: If you have to borrow money to get it, you cannot--by definition--afford it.
You paid cash for your house?
Most people consider that real estate maintains value, give or take. A car is, except for very rare collectibles (which are not what OP is considering), a depreciating asset.

There is a clear difference between a mortgage and a consumer loan for a vehicle.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by ClevrChico »

You probably only have a few years left to spend money on you and you only. Once a house and family enter the picture, the Porsche will be out of the picture.

But, try to find a much cheaper way to acquire a car you love. The $70k Porsche likely has a TCO of four years of discretionary income, and that's not including opportunity cost. That's insane. Find a car that's taken a depreciation hit, CPO, take over a lease until it's out of your system, our find a soon to be classic that will appreciate.

I spent $5.5k in my twenties on fully depreciated sports car. It was my daily driver, racked up a lot of miles, an accident, fixed cheap, then cash for clunkered for $4.5k. Other than consumables, it was a $1k sports car. The fast car bug is completely out of my system.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by lightheir »

ssquared87 wrote:
surfhb wrote: You paid $4500 for a bicycle?! Your spending is over the top my friend

Are you going to have the same attitude with a home?

BELIEVE ME! When youre 45 with kids you will have wished you saved and invested more and spent your money more wisely. Working day in and day out for decades gets old :happy
A basic road bike starts at about $1,800. Around $3,500-$5,000 is average for people who ride a lot. When you ride for over 100 miles a week (I was up to 250 at one point but have been a bit busy to do that much) having something you enjoy being on and is comfortable is quite essential.

I have no desire to buy a home. I rent an apartment for $800 and would be happy having an apartment half the size because its not important to me. I value experiences more than things like a home or fancy clothes. My bike allows me the experience of being outside with my friends and getting exercise. Once you buy a bike you're set, there really aren't any expenses other than keeping the chain greased and clean, replacing tires and brake pads which comes out to less than $100 a year.

Most people pay $40 or so a month for a gym. If my bike lasts 10 years (which it should easily), I've essentially paid the same thing for my bike as someone paid for a gym membership. Is that really that "over the top"

I don't know maybe I'm being defensive and the bike is extravagant, but that and skiing are really the only things i spend money on other than food and rent. Tracking the car hasn't been expensive yet because I've been using my daily driver and haven't been driving hard enough to cause much wear and tear
$4500 is not unusual for a racer-style road bike - most of the guys I ride with have bikes of that level, mine included. (Ok, mine's about half that but same idea.)

I am, however, surprised if I'm right that you didn't pay cash for the road bike? Normally I'd say 'heck, it's your money, go crazy if you have it and buy the Porsche!" given you've got your retirement setup maxxed out, but at least to me, it was a minor red flag to hear that you'd financed a road bike, which made me a bit wary of recommeding you go all-in with the Porsche.

And FWIW, I actually bet you'll get more enjoyment in the long run from the road bike than the Porsche!
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by Further »

It's good to hear from other track people. There's some interesting advice here, all pretty good and accurate. As far as the Porsche, the Cayman is exquisite. I would go for an 09 or 10 S with the limited slip diff. Keep it street legal and drive it to and from the track. I say go for it, if it suits you. I test drove one and passed on it for different vehicle. Keep in mind, the real deal Porsche track beast is the GT3. The Miata is an excellent track car, and I'm planning on building one next year for Chump. The S2000 in the later iteration is also good but pretty overpriced. Vettes, all good, especially a C5 Z06 if you've got it set up right. Remember, if your vehicle is not street legal, you'll have to trailer it to and from the track, or store it there. My best overall bet for a track vehicle, is a caged and track prepped E36 M3.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by StormShadow »

I love me a Porsche. They're sexy. They're fast. They're the poor-man's Ferrari... and I mean that in a good way.

I've thought of buying one for years... could even purchase a new 911 Turbo in cash... but I couldn't justify shelling out that kind of money for a car. Plus the maintenance can be a nightmare. Frankly, the same reasoning has held me back from getting the BMW that you are driving now. And I looooove me a BMW.

I wouldn't fault you for getting one though. Its up to you if it means that much to ya.

Frankly, if you have to ask for reasons not to buy a car... then you prolly already know what your decision "should" be.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by LifeLearner »

I'm similar to you in age, income, even rent price. Like you, I like cars, and I enjoy driving. If you're serious about getting into driving, I think you're better off with a slow RWD car - as other posters have mentioned, an S2000, Miata, even an E30 are great platforms. All of these cars can be had for sub-15k ready to go. As they say, driving a slow car fast is better than driving a fast car slow. I'd put the extra money into driving school (which has been mentioned already) and learn how to take the car to its limits. Even stretching a bit though I wouldn't recommend it (very non-BH), a used Elise would serve your purposes of a toy far better than a Porsche would at a lower price. Lightweight, quick, and most importantly, nimble.
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Re: Convince me not to buy Porsche

Post by virgingorda »

Are we at the apex of fun cars? I remember a coworker saying it was all going downhill. That was in 1989.

Buy used! You can find one!
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