Backyard conundrum

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
bendabear
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Backyard conundrum

Post by bendabear »

Hi there Boglehead community!! :)
Would like your advice on something...

Facts: 1. own our home | 2. bought home in 2012| 3. owe $118,000 | 4. Zillow values our home at $243,000 | | 5.

Info: We have a big yet horrid backyard hard dirt, rubble, and a stupid tree that attracts bees and drops crap everywhere. We plan on being in the house long term.

Goal: We want to landscape our backyard so it is a usable space both for us/friends/family and our new puppy.

Question: We don't have enough cash to do the whole project, guessing it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15k-18k, I don't want to do a personal loan.
Question is.....would refinancing and adding about 20k to the refinance be the best way to get the money we need to do the backyard OR would doing a home equity loan be better?(I say 20k per we all know construction cost are never accurate and usually go over. Don't want to do a equity line of credit to close to personal loan.

Or is there another way to get 20k with super low interest rate?
Thank you so very much for any information ya'll might be able to provide!
Grateful,
~Ben
Last edited by bendabear on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
Posts: 85971
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by livesoft »

What is the species of tree that you have in your backyard?

In our area, sod is about $500 delivered to your house that would cover an eighth-acre. You can trivially install it yourself.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
killjoy2012
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by killjoy2012 »

IMO, assuming your mortgage is already at a competitive rate, a HELOC or HEL would be the better option. You appear to have enough equity in the house to qualify. Many banks and credit unions will do a HELOC/HEL for no closing costs, whereas if you refi, you're likely looking at $1-3k in closing costs. Why pay closing costs & fees if you don't need to?

The HELOC will be a slightly higher APY, sure, but just as deductible as your mortgage interest. Your payback period will also likely be shorter (most I've had calculate the monthly bill based on a 5 or 10 year payoff, so your monthly payment will be higher that the delta if you were to refi, irregardless of how long the HELOC is open/good for.

I would check out HELOCs/HELs at your local credit union. Also checkout PenFed's.
YttriumNitrate
Posts: 1093
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:13 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by YttriumNitrate »

Attracting bees usually isn't a problem. Attracting wasps is a problem as the following graphic shows.

Image
Topic Author
bendabear
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by bendabear »

@livesoft : not sure of tree species but irregardless we are removing the tree per the location it is at... We will be planting a few new trees just in a better location.

@killjoy2012: what is PenFed's? Isnt a HELOC basically like a credit card in disguise? where you could say use it pay it off then use it again and again just with a lower APR? if so that temptation isn't something I'd like to have around. :) (coming from a guy who was 18k in debt and am currently debit free, save for house, took 8 years to get here)

will post pic of backyard soon.

There are also other projects investments into the house we would like to do. such as rewire, house is a 1942 craftsman, has Knob & Tube wiring would like to upgrade to code using romex or the like.
The Wizard
Posts: 13356
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:45 pm
Location: Reading, MA

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by The Wizard »

If possible, it's better to learn how to do certain household improvements yourself, even if it takes longer.
The relevant term is "sweat equity"...
Attempted new signature...
Freddy
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Freddy »

There are plenty of books out there on landscaping and backyard design. Doing it yourself will save you approximately 1/2 to 2/3 the cost. If you don't want to cut the tree down yourself, call a tree company ($1000-1500). Just make sure you get them to Grind the stump down as well.
User avatar
Mrs.Feeley
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:52 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

When a friend wanted to re-landscape her back and front yards she paid a local landscape firm to draw up a redesign with sketches, a plant and materials list. This cost her about $600. Then slowly over time she hired workers to do elements of the redesign, did some of the work herself, bought the plants and trees herself, etc. She hired neighborhood kids to spread mulch and dig out bushes she didn't want. She saved a bundle.
killjoy2012
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by killjoy2012 »

bendabear wrote: @killjoy2012: what is PenFed's? Isnt a HELOC basically like a credit card in disguise? where you could say use it pay it off then use it again and again just with a lower APR? if so that temptation isn't something I'd like to have around. :) (coming from a guy who was 18k in debt and am currently debit free, save for house, took 8 years to get here)
Home Equity Loan == fixed amount, fixed term --- pay $xxx/month for Y months
Home Equity Line of Credit == approved for a maximum credit limit, you have a checkbook that you can write checks against the LOC. If you spend 0, 0 balance, you pay nothing. Once you use it, then it's kinda like a credit card -- you'll received a monthly bill that has a minimum payment, you can pay it in full if you want, etc. The advantage is that your interest is treated like your mortgage interest for tax purposes.

PenFed, Pentagon Federal Credit Union, is a large CU that generally has good rates and is used to working with people remotely.
https://www.penfed.org/Home-Equity-Loans-Overview/
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

The first thing I would do is have the bad soil/rocks dug out and hauled away and good topsoil put in instead. (Update: someone can do this with a backhoe.) This will cost money but not the numbers you are talking about unless the yard is very very large. Then you can do the planting piece by piece yourself. Good dirt is the key.

Bees are good.
Last edited by dolphinsaremammals on Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dratkinson »

Labor is the expensive part. Sweat equity can save a lot of money.

I remember seeing episodes of "Ask This Old House" where lawns were renovated: soil testing (county agricultural extension), soil amended (bulk delivery), aerated before spreading amendment (rented core aerator) or rototilled after spreading amendment (rented rototiller), seed or sod (delivered),.... A work crew would make fast work of task, but much cheaper and within the capability of average homeowner over a few days (depending upon size of yard).

Removing large trees best left to others. You want them to remove everything and grind the stump to 6" below top of soil.

Small trees can be removed by homeowner, cut into firewood length (rented chainsaw), placed by curb with a "free" sign, and advertised on CL as "free firewood". The person taking it will split it (no need to rent log splitter). Stump can be removed with rented stump grinder. "Tops/trash" can be cut into small sections and placed for trash pickup, or ground into small size for making compost (rented grinder). Chainsaws are dangerous, don't attempt this if uncertain you can be safe.

This website seems interesting. Could check articles and forum for more than you wanted to know: http://aroundtheyard.com/
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
User avatar
Rainier
Posts: 1733
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:59 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Rainier »

I've always wanted to get a landscape design that I could implement myself over time. Will nurseries/garden centers really do this for $600? If so, I feel like there is an underlying commitment.
edge
Posts: 3833
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: NY

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by edge »

If you mostly put in sod (properly) it won't be very expensive.

If you get creative with trees and beds and lots of shrubs then it will be costly.

As far as financing a heloc is your best bet.
denovo
Posts: 4808
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by denovo »

Where;d you get that number , 18k, is your backyard 10 acres?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
fishboat
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by fishboat »

+1 on the sweat equity..landscaping isn't hard & doesn't take a level of skill akin to..say..a cabinetmaker. Save 'hiring' for things that are really beyond your reach.

If you can't come up with a good plan yourself(overall design as well as plant specie), then have someone skilled draw it up. You can then do the reasonably brainless install yourself...it'll save you the cost of a gym membership.

I had a couple estimates on a section of my yard by landscape designers. Two estimates came in at $10-$12K. The raw material costs (plants, small boulders, dirt, mulch, delivery charges) were in the $3k to $3.5K range. I did it myself while in my 50's.
likegarden
Posts: 3181
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by likegarden »

With landscaping it is the same as with finances. You have to read first, here it is the Boglehead Wiki. There is a lot of info about basic landscaping on the internet to read. There is the Garden Web, click on 'Landscape Design' in
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums

Landscaping is no rocket science. A nursery could provide you with a plan for a few $100. Working in the backyard is good for your body as a side benefit. I am 75 and do all my yard work myself, except removing trees. You are even able to make a standard patio by yourself. In respect to a deck, I would let deck company do that, always get several estimates.

I would start with a basic layout, such as planning on a lawn in the center and several trees around the property line. Your car should be able to carry bags of any amendments and mulch from big box stores. First I would get the undesirable tree removed, then you could hire a guy with a rototiller to loosen up the back yard, level it and remove debris. Rocks are good to look at in groupings in the border, so no need to remove those. Probably the place you plan to buy sod from also knows people who install sod. Thereafter you can plant any trees or bushes, and mulch the border. All you have to do then is to water everything regularly and you are done. Over the years you will learn more and will improve on that initial design, there is no rush.
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28813
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Watty »

bendabear wrote:| 4. Zillow values our home at $243,000 |

.....
Question: We don't have enough cash to do the whole project, guessing it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15k-18k, I don't want to do a personal loan.
Taking out any sort of loan that size to do landscaping is a bad idea. The problem is that landscaping adds very little if any value to the house. Take a look at the appraisal for the house from when you bought it. If there is not a large subtraction on that appraisal for having below average landscaping then that is a pretty good sign that it will not add much value to the house.

If you had the cash to pay for the landscaping then spending the money on it would be like deciding to spend the money on an expensive vacation in that it is not an investment, it is just a choice on what to do with your disposable income. You likely would not take out a loan to pay for a vacation and this is in the same category.

Your local community center or community college likely has one day classes on landscaping so taking one of those would be a good idea. Even if you decide to hire someone to do the work having the class would help you know what to watch out for and what to ask the landscaper.

I don't follow it but there is a board for things like this that I have heard good things about. It would be good to get some photos of the problem tree and closeups of the leaves then ask over there what type of tree it is and what you should do with it.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums

You can also take a few leaves in to a local nursery and ask them what type of tree it is and for their suggestions. If it is a Sweetgum then taking it out might be a good idea, but in some areas you have to get a permit to take out large trees so be sure to look into that.

The good news is that even if your number is right, you don't have to pay for it all at once since you can spread the work out over several years.

But your original question was about a super low interest rate loan. I would not recommend it but if you have a paid off car then you can likely get a car loan for about 2% at a credit union.
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dratkinson »

If you don't already have one, now is the time to also think about installing a sprinkler system for your new backyard. And the time to install it is when the ground is torn up, before the final lawn/plants are installed.

Search internet for "sprinkler system design". Could also search here as I recall someone linking to an informative site, just don't remember its URL.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
User avatar
Mrs.Feeley
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:52 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

likegarden wrote:With landscaping it is the same as with finances. You have to read first, here it is the Boglehead Wiki. There is a lot of info about basic landscaping on the internet to read. There is the Garden Web, click on 'Landscape Design' in
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums

Landscaping is no rocket science. A nursery could provide you with a plan for a few $100. Working in the backyard is good for your body as a side benefit. I am 75 and do all my yard work myself, except removing trees. You are even able to make a standard patio by yourself. In respect to a deck, I would let deck company do that, always get several estimates.

I would start with a basic layout, such as planning on a lawn in the center and several trees around the property line. Your car should be able to carry bags of any amendments and mulch from big box stores. First I would get the undesirable tree removed, then you could hire a guy with a rototiller to loosen up the back yard, level it and remove debris. Rocks are good to look at in groupings in the border, so no need to remove those. Probably the place you plan to buy sod from also knows people who install sod. Thereafter you can plant any trees or bushes, and mulch the border. All you have to do then is to water everything regularly and you are done. Over the years you will learn more and will improve on that initial design, there is no rush.
This is all excellent advice. :thumbsup
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95466
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (mostly landscaping).
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
GoldenFinch
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by GoldenFinch »

Save money. Make improvements when you can pay for them. Not a good idea to go in debt for a backyard. Patience is a good thing.
sesq
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:24 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by sesq »

I would look at the rates of the refi and its closing costs (assume you find a loan that folds them into the rate) versus the HELOC and build an amortization schedule for each in excel. Pick the one with the lower cost, although be wary of the variable rate on the HELOC, PMI (not likely unless your appraisal came in way off) and cashflow flexibility.

When I did my yard (not DIY), rates had dropped where the refi was the better answer.
Topic Author
bendabear
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by bendabear »

HI all so yes, I have 2 contractors in the family so I am well aware and will do as much "sweat equity" as we can. The landscaper will just be used basically for the tools and crew he has to get this done timely as summer is upon us here in the central valley.
Anyways wanted to give you all some good news.
Doing a preliminary REFI with cash out through Golden 1 Credit union our numbers look like this(will round to nearest whole dollar for simplicity)

current: 1. APR(fixed) conventional at 3.25% | 2. 0 points | 3. NO PMI | 4. taxes/home insurance and mortgage is all included and we pay $750/month for 30 years(well 26 years left now) | 5. currently owe $118/k

Golden 1 numbers: 1. APR(fixed) conventional at 3.25% | 2. 1.250% points | 3. NO PMI | 4. taxes/home insurance and mortgage is all included rasing our payment to $960/month for 15years!!!! | 5. new balance would be ~$138/k
Image
Image

This would be a good/wise deal right?
(I realize we are borrowing more that we currently owe and more debit = not good, but this is going to happen just wanting your opinion on this Golden 1 deal)
livesoft
Posts: 85971
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by livesoft »

I keep thinking about that tree in your backyard. It could be a rare or heirloom tree worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. It could be peach tree or a n orange tree, or a plum tree.

We have an orange tree and a native mulberry tree. They produce fruit at different times of the year. My spouse's grandmother had a pecan tree, so we always got free pecans.

My guess is that the OP is not a "naturalist" and wants a fairly instant backyard with no work for themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but it will cost more money and may not survive long term through the climate and seasons of their location. However, getting expert help on the choice of plants should be helpful and allow for a better chance at long-term survival.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
wfrobinette
Posts: 1879
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by wfrobinette »

bendabear wrote:Hi there Boglehead community!! :)
Would like your advice on something...

Facts: 1. own our home | 2. bought home in 2012| 3. owe $118,000 | 4. Zillow values our home at $243,000 | | 5.

Info: We have a big yet horrid backyard hard dirt, rubble, and a stupid tree that attracts bees and drops crap everywhere. We plan on being in the house long term.

Goal: We want to landscape our backyard so it is a usable space both for us/friends/family and our new puppy.

Question: We don't have enough cash to do the whole project, guessing it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15k-18k, I don't want to do a personal loan.
Question is.....would refinancing and adding about 20k to the refinance be the best way to get the money we need to do the backyard OR would doing a home equity loan be better?(I say 20k per we all know construction cost are never accurate and usually go over. Don't want to do a equity line of credit to close to personal loan.

Or is there another way to get 20k with super low interest rate?
Thank you so very much for any information ya'll might be able to provide!
Grateful,
~Ben
Why don't you get the quote first, settle on a design and final price then see where you are at dollar wise. You can also spread landscaping out over a couple of years. Tree's first, then shrubs, then perennials.
fishboat
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by fishboat »

Watty wrote:
Taking out any sort of loan that size to do landscaping is a bad idea. The problem is that landscaping adds very little if any value to the house. Take a look at the appraisal for the house from when you bought it. If there is not a large subtraction on that appraisal for having below average landscaping then that is a pretty good sign that it will not add much value to the house.

If you had the cash to pay for the landscaping then spending the money on it would be like deciding to spend the money on an expensive vacation in that it is not an investment, it is just a choice on what to do with your disposable income. You likely would not take out a loan to pay for a vacation and this is in the same category.
Amen.

Having a whole lot of experience in such things over the last 35 years...if the OP isn't interested in doing the initial install...then I'm thinking there won't be a whole lot of interest in the required & ongoing maintenance. (weeding, new mulch, replacing plants that die off...)

have fun..:)
GoldenFinch
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by GoldenFinch »

livesoft wrote:I keep thinking about that tree in your backyard. It could be a rare or heirloom tree worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. It could be peach tree or a n orange tree, or a plum tree.

We have an orange tree and a native mulberry tree. They produce fruit at different times of the year. My spouse's grandmother had a pecan tree, so we always got free pecans.

My guess is that the OP is not a "naturalist" and wants a fairly instant backyard with no work for themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but it will cost more money and may not survive long term through the climate and seasons of their location. However, getting expert help on the choice of plants should be helpful and allow for a better chance at long-term survival.
Survival of the yard (and therefore the investment) might be something the OP could consider.

The problem with backyards in my experience is that sometimes things go terribly wrong. Our backyard was beautiful when we bought our house about 20 years ago. At some point our 80+ year old giant tree died. Then we had some horrible winters, a couple summer droughts, once I over pruned a few things and, well, the backyard kind of died. Currently our yard looks amazing, but I'm glad we didn't take out a loan to make it happen. It just took putting in some new trees, new soil and plants over time (a few things each year) and waiting patiently for everything to grow and come together.

It is possible that the debt will outlive the yard.
Topic Author
bendabear
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by bendabear »

@wfrobinette With my dad being a contractor and one of my brothers also being a contractor we have a fairly great idea of what the cost should be. This will be for all the hardscaping, concrete, rocks, shed etc. We love fresh fruit and veggies so we have a 12x20ish foot area designated for such things over time as you suggested. I'm in CA where we are in our 4th year of drought so besides what is the the garden a a tree or 2, we will have a few succulent plants.

@livesoft its is not a special tree at all, well not any more special than any other tree, its not fruit baring, and its about 10-12 feet from the back wall of our house which is a poorly converted support too closet that previous owner did....we will far down the road tear it down and rebuild and at that time the tree will be in the way. :)

@fishboat because we are putting in mostly landscaping and fake grass along with succulent and a garden there will be virtually no yard maintness other than the veggie garden. :)

Thank you all for your feedback/concerns questions, this really is helping me and my wife talk about what would be best from a "we want the space usable" to the money aspect of it. I'm a do-it yourself-er for the most part but somethings it just good to have the pro's come and do. :)

And finally got a Panoramic(sort of) of the backyard. :)

Image

Another angle of backyard. the right side is the crappy enclosed sun porch the previou owner did we currently use as storage. at some point it will come down and we will rebuild extending it about 6more feet.

Image

Here is a pic of our crudely drawn plans.
The 20x40 area is a floating deck, probaly a type of composite, with just a few 4x4s around it to string up lights and a movable canopy for shade.
The 15.5x24 area will be fake grass(for the puppy mostly)
The 26x28 area will be 6 - 3'x28' poured concrete with about 6"-12" separating which will be filled in with river rock or some type of rock. and in the middle of that 26x28 area will be a gas fire pit with seating. (gas meter is on the back of house so only have to run about 15'-20' of pipe)
The shed might go from what we plan on 8x12 to a 12x12 need to think about that one more.
Lastly the strip along the house where it says GATE will be a 4' poured concrete to walk from the driveway to the only back door on the right side of house.

Image
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dratkinson »

"The 15.5x24 area will be fake grass(for the puppy mostly)"

No direct experience, so curious how does that work?

I ask because a past adjoining neighbor had a dog. Its urine would seem to kill back the grass (brown spots), but the stool areas, over time, eventually grew the thickest, darkest green grass in his backyard.

But without soil/grass/bacterial action to break down puppy's leavings, won't things just accumulate? And if so, can't image any other (not puppy mostly) use for that space.

My neighbor sometimes picked up puppy's leavings, other times he watered in. Is your only option "pickup up everything"?
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
livesoft
Posts: 85971
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by livesoft »

[Comment below acceptable threshold removed by admin LadyGeek]
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
chickadee
Posts: 455
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:13 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by chickadee »

Seems a shame to cut the tree down, it's the only thing your backyard has going for it right now. Can you lift the canopy by cutting back some of the lower limbs?

12x12 shed for sure. You have the room, and you'll regret not making it bigger later.
GoldenFinch
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by GoldenFinch »

livesoft wrote:[Comment below acceptable threshold removed by admin LadyGeek]
:shock:

I finally understand the fundamental difference between dog and cat owners.

I have a cat. :happy
livesoft
Posts: 85971
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by livesoft »

GoldenFinch wrote:
livesoft wrote:[Comment below acceptable threshold removed by admin LadyGeek]
:shock:

I finally understand the fundamental difference between dog and cat owners.

I have a cat. :happy
My dog cleans up after outdoor cats, too. I never see any cat owners cleaning up after their pets.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
Mrs.Feeley
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:52 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

Is that a cottonwood tree you have there? They grow big and messy but if you prune them up they can be quite beautiful and provide a lot of shade. Understandable if you want to get rid of it however. They are messy.

Scrolling through the pictures it looks like there's a gas station beyond the fence. Either that or someone's holding a carnival with all those colorful pennants flapping in the breeze. :D My priority would be planting foliage to cover that up.

Many people train their dogs to relieve themselves on designated patches of mulch or wood chips. The dogs seem to like that and it's easier to clean up than artificial turf. Looks nicer too.
User avatar
dbCooperAir
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:13 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dbCooperAir »

Do people use decks in CA?

We have both a patio and a deck, the deck gets used 90% of the time. Our deck is less than 2'-0" above grade.

Did not see a deck on your plan, just curious.
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

The OP doesn't know whether that's a valuable tree or not, since he has no clue as to what variety of tree it is.

It sounds to me like this is a big waste of money waiting to happen - no knowledge and no interest in gardening, so whatever he does is going to die off.
drawpoker
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 6:33 pm
Location: Delmarva

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by drawpoker »

chickadee wrote:Seems a shame to cut the tree down, it's the only thing your backyard has going for it right now. .
^This

As others have pointed out, bees are good, also butterflies. You really should make an effort to identify the tree. If is attracting bees it must be a flowering tree, right? Crabapple, maybe?

Cutting down a mature shade tree that is healthy and disease-free should be a crime. Oh, wait, yes, it is. Right here. Our town has an ordinance that makes it illegal to do so.
fposte
Posts: 2327
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by fposte »

You mentioned you're in the Central Valley. New landscaping and lawn can, unless you're seriously xeriscaping, require a fair bit of watering the first year. Are you going to be able to do that kind of watering this year?

And in general, I'd make sure I was prioritizing low-water needs in anything I planted out there. Heck, I do it here in the rainy Midwest, since August is generally a different story.
surfstar
Posts: 2853
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by surfstar »

GoldenFinch wrote:Save money. Make improvements when you can pay for them. Not a good idea to go in debt for a backyard. Patience is a good thing.
x2

Irregardless was used in this thread twice. (three counting my post)
Sorry, one of those words that I have to point out. Cringe worthy when heard in person!
sesq
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:24 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by sesq »

bendabear wrote:H
Golden 1 numbers: 1. APR(fixed) conventional at 3.25% | 2. 1.250% points | 3. NO PMI | 4. taxes/home insurance and mortgage is all included rasing our payment to $960/month for 15years!!!! | 5. new balance would be ~$138/k [/url]

This would be a good/wise deal right?
(I realize we are borrowing more that we currently owe and more debit = not good, but this is going to happen just wanting your opinion on this Golden 1 deal)
Bad deal. You are paying 1.250 or 1,725 in points to keep your rate the same and move to a shorter term and pull out 14K (132k - 118k, so also 4k in closing costs). All in $6k of closing costs to finance 14k of cash is a lousy deal.

Even $6k of closing costs to pull 20k is a lousy deal. If you want to pay it off in 15 years you can increase your payment to $960 and get there that way (or take a HELOC, make that payment and increase your payment for the rest).

I have lenders by me who will do a HELOC for less than 2% and a $400 appraisal fee (likely waived). Look HELOC, for sure.
Last edited by sesq on Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
olentangy61
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by olentangy61 »

Mrs.Feeley wrote:Is that a cottonwood tree you have there?
I'm guessing basswood (aka linden, tilia americana) from the leaves and bark. Also, bees love basswood.

It's native to the eastern states, but I've seen in California.
Birdie55
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Birdie55 »

For your vegetable area you might consider putting in raised beds. 4 x 8 and one foot deep is pretty easy to make using 12 foot redwood boards. Then you put in a planting mix (70% topsoil and 30% compost) and amend with fertilizer. Keeps the amendments where you need them.

Also, consider using irrigation lines with inline emitters. For the landscape plants, you can get the emitters 18 inches apart and the vegetable beds, 12 inches apart. Irrigation lines (think black feeder line) without emitters can be snaked around the yard between planting areas, just splice the emitter line around the planting areas. That should help reduce the water usage.
saladdin
Posts: 535
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 5:45 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by saladdin »

I'm at a loss as to why landscaping is called an investment, why anyone would pull money out of their house to build a garden and why you would cut that tree down. I know people have different tastes but throw in a person who is tempted by debt as the OP mentions, this is off the charts crazy to me all the way around.
drawpoker
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 6:33 pm
Location: Delmarva

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by drawpoker »

saladdin wrote:I'm at a loss as to why landscaping is called an investment, why anyone would
Think of it this way.

You can buy perennials, plant them, fill your garden with them, create a beautiful and pleasing yard, and they come back year after year. With growth. Higher yields. Good returns. LOL

Or, you can buy annuals, plant them, fill the garden with them, create a beautiful and pleasing yard, and enjoy it for one season. Then, you can repeat the same buying cycle the next year, and the next, and the next. Forever. Keep throwing $$ down a hole, when you coulda bought the Daylilies 500 Index. LOL

Having said that, I do agree that scale is everything. Work in small, manageable stages.
There is no reason to overspend on backyard projects, as they don't really contribute to "curb appeal", do they.
User avatar
Mrs.Feeley
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:52 am

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Mrs.Feeley »

olentangy61 wrote:
Mrs.Feeley wrote:Is that a cottonwood tree you have there?
I'm guessing basswood (aka linden, tilia americana) from the leaves and bark. Also, bees love basswood.

It's native to the eastern states, but I've seen in California.
You may be right. I thought of cottonwood because the leaves look poplar-like. Basswood are beautiful trees. We have several on the edge of our property. You don't cut them down, you plan your landscape around them. The seed "junk" they drop is easily mowed over with a mulching mower and vanishes into the grass within a week.
dolphinsaremammals
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

surfstar wrote:
Irregardless was used in this thread twice. (three counting my post)
Sorry, one of those words that I have to point out. Cringe worthy when heard in person!
Irregardless of your opinion, Merriam Webster says it is a word, although they prefer its use being restricted to speech.
Saving$
Posts: 2510
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:33 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Saving$ »

OP - I get your anxiousness to fix up the yard and make is usable. I really do get it.

One tenet of being a Boglehead is the ability for delayed gratification. You obviously have the ability to do that since you paid off debts and bought a house. Now you need to do that again. The deal you posted is flat out TERRIBLE - 6k in costs for an $18k loan???

Leave your existing loan as is. Don't mess with it. Yes a 15 year payoff sounds tempting, but the current 30 gives you more room. Perhaps $200/month does not seem like much to you, but think of it like this: $200/month pays your loan off 15 years early!

You have not posted your other info: Income/expenses/disposable income and retirement savings (or maybe they are on a different post). But the bottom line is if you are thinking of BORROWING for landscaping YOU CAN NOT AFFORD THIS. Save that $200/month, and in 2 years you will have close to $5k. If you have other disposable income save that also. Then do the project, if you insist upon hiring it out.

Also, spend some time thinking about what has been posted here. $18k in landscaping/hardscaping is just really over the top for the value of your house. In my area, brand new high end homes (over 1/2 mil) get landscaping/hardscaping worth approx. 2% of the home value. If you really want $18k worth, listen to the above posters and get to doing it yourself. Should cost you about $5k in materials (which you can save in 2 years per above) and tons of sweat equity, which should take about 2 years. You will appreciate it more, and will not do stuff unless you really want it.

This is NOT an expense to finance. Think about when you were in debt. You are doing the same thing again. Hiding the debt in your home mortgage does not change that. This is just not a good financial decision.
OatmealAddict
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:03 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by OatmealAddict »

I'd work on saving up the cash and in the meantime, get some quotes. They shouldn't cost you anything and you'll at least get an idea if you're in the right ballpark. You could be off by thousands which, if in your favor, could make the project more feasible without having to finance the cost.

We recently had our backyard COMPLETELY redone and it was thousands less than I thought it was going to be.
User avatar
Kenkat
Posts: 9539
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:18 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by Kenkat »

Are you sure about the $15k-18k estimate? You are only doing an area of a little over 3000 square feet. Although the 20x40 deck and the patio area will be more expensive; you could cut them down somewhat and do more hardscape or some green space suitable to California as a big green lawn area is probably not the best choice.

Regardless, or Irregardless, if you are planning to stay in your home for awhile, a nice backyard would be worth it to me. I was just sitting in my backyard earlier this week, glad that I had invested a little money and sweat equity in my yard 17 years ago as the trees are now big, the gardens are in bloom and the birds and fireflies seem to enjoy the mature plants.

When we did our yard we had someone come in and rock hound, grade and improve the soil, build landscaping beds and seed the lawn (different climate). I then did all of the planting, finished the beds, etc. Divide it up and have someone do the things you can't do, don't have the equipment to do, or are just too hard and then do the rest yourself.

In terms of financing, I would do a HELOC. Golden 1 looks like they are offering 4% with no points. If you had put down less money on your house and had $20k sitting in a savings account, I don't think anyone would be saying you had excess debt. You have 50% equity in your home; if a small amount of additional debt allows you to enjoy your home significantly more, it wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion. If my backyard looked like that, I would do something. It looks like a disaster; I wouldn't have probably bought the house without thinking I was going to need to put some money into it in the future.
sls239
Posts: 1207
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Backyard conundrum

Post by sls239 »

You have a shade tree that has survived 4 years of severe drought and you want to chop it down?

I think you should know that your idea of landscaping is not likely to align with potential buyers if you end up needing to sell. Even for a desert area, your sections are too large and it has too much hardscape and you've used nothing but rectangles.
Post Reply