“Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

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Alex Frakt
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by Alex Frakt »

Easy Rhino wrote:the talk of Subaru WRX's got me thinking... what about a Mitsubishi Lancer with AWD?
Mitsubishi is barely hanging onto the US market. The Lancer hasn't received a major update in the last 10 years and thus Subaru (and everyone else) has far surpassed it in ride quality, interior quality and refinement in general, which is why even the niche market WRX handily outsells the entire Lancer line. They are only worth a look if you absolutely refuse to consider a Subaru or have incurable nostalgia for early versions of Grand Turismo (the video game). That said, if you have a Mitsubishi dealer handy it can't hurt to look. The Lancer Ralliart is the direct WRX competitor.
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ESK
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Re: Consumer Reports April Car Issue

Post by ESK »

Taylor Larimore wrote:
ESK wrote:Here’s our background in case you are interested: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 1&t=163898

We are now thinking about an Audi A3 or Audi Q3. Or possibly a BMW 228i x. We are pretty sure we need all-wheel-drive because we live in a very snowy area and have experienced the joy of driving our AWD Subaru around an incapacitated car spinning its wheels in an intersection (also it is useful for getting up our driveway in the winter).

We’re not looking for a sports car but would like something with a little bit of pep to it (Subarus aren't very peppy). We don’t like wagons or huge SUVs so a sedan or coupe is probably best.

Does anyone have any experience with these cars? We don’t know much about cars and have always bought new or used from a friend we trust. But should we also be looking at used cars from dealers? Any and all advice is welcome.
ESK:

It is risky to purchase a car based on anecdotal evidence. May I suggest you get a copy of Consumer Reports April Car Issue.

There is nothing more instructive than the thousands of objective tests and results of various new and used cars. I would never buy a car without reading the Consumer Reports annual car issue (which just went on sale). It should be available at any public library.

Best wishes.
Taylor
I agree. I subscribed to consumer reports' website yesterday. It is only $6.95 per month and I intend to cancel my subscription once we buy a car.

I have been researching each car on Consumer Reports as well enjoying the anecdotal evidence provided on this forum.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ESK »

Husband here. Wife always raves about the quality of the discussions on this message board, and in this she is not wrong (nor is she in much of anything else). Just a few points of clarification.

I've been completely utilitarian about cars my whole life. Currently driving a 2004 Civic with 105,000 miles on it, which replaced a 1992 Civic at 120,000 miles, which replaced a 1980 Buick Regal I bought for $1,800 in 1987. The Civics are/were excellent, reliable cars; the Regal was a [POS] but did what I needed it to do for the last two years of college and three years of law school.

But at this point in my life -- almost 49, one kid starting college in the fall and the other ninth grade, extremely safe six-figure job for 20 years at a company that still has a defined-benefit pension plan, large 401k and other investments on top of the pension -- I feel like I can indulge myself a little. We don't go on vacations, we don't have boats or cabins or like millstones around our necks, we don't even eat out anymore. The only toys that at all interest me are electric guitars, but I have one already (late 90s American Standard Telecaster) and I don't have time to play it as it is (and stink when I do), so as much as I'd like to pick up a Les Paul or a Gretsch or some other such beauty I simply can't justify it.

But we need a new car, and I want something that's fast and fun yet can still be relied on during the long Minnesota winter. Maybe AWD isn't absolutely necessary for winter driving, but I can tell you that there have been many situations over the years which the Subaru Outback could handle with ease but which were much more challenging or even impossible for the Civic. So it will take a lot to convince me that we don't need AWD on at least one of our cars.

Fast and fun excludes the Civics and Camrys of the world, honorable though they are, but there are tons of options at $35K or less and I see no reason why I should spend anything more than that to get what I want. Status means nothing to me -- indeed, the fact that the BMW 228i is a BMW and not something less snooty is a strike against it, not for it, but it fits my requirements otherwise and thus is on the table.

We will be paying straight cash for this, or perhaps financing $10K or so for a brief period to take advantage of discounts (I was quoted $1,600 on the A3), as one of my cardinal rules (shared by Wife) is never to borrow money to finance a depreciating asset. But in closing, I gotta say, weaving through traffic on the interstate at 95+ mph during the A3 test drive was a BLAST, and that counts for a lot, at least in my book.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by tj »

bloom2708 wrote:
tj wrote:I'll never really understand the aversion to car loans when the rates are dirt cheap. Where else can you get a 6 year loan at 1.99% or lower? And sometimes you can get cash incentive for refinancing the loan which equals more than the interest actually paid on the loan.
If 1% in expenses can make a huge difference in your investments over 20, 30, 40 years, then 2% or 3% can have a huge impact on the spending side. That is my take. Debt is debt. Payments are payments.

The car is quickly depreciating under you and you are paying interest. Early in our marriage my wife would repeatedly say "We'll always have a car loan".."We'll always have a mortgage payment".. :oops: We failed on both and she has seen the light. :mrgreen:

I do find it interesting that many Bogleheads will scrimp and save .10%, .25% or .50% on an Expense Ratio and would never pay an advisor 1% but are OK with a lifetime of car payments or mortgage payments. I realize the amounts are smaller and you don't have the compounding. But if you invested that 2% or 3% in interest it WOULD have compounded.

I guess only you can put the "personal" in personal finance.
Who said anything about a lifetime of loans? I'd specifically rather invest the capital in the stock market and use a 2% loan for that capital than dump it all in a piece of metal. How is that even remotely comparable to paying a 1% fee to an advisor? I buy a car based on how much I want to spend. I'll get a loan if I have better use for the capital. If it was a higher loan rate, I would not bother, or if I did have a loan, I'd allocate funds towards paying it off rather than investing, but in a low interest rate environment - absolutely. I don't see why one would keep a higher rate mortgage if the tax adjusted rate is higher than an auto loan. Debt is debt. It doesnt matter what it's secured with, IMO.
Last edited by tj on Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by Alex Frakt »

ESK wrote:
Husband here. Wife always raves about the quality of the discussions on this message board, and in this she is not wrong (nor is she in much of anything else). Just a few points of clarification.

I've been completely utilitarian about cars my whole life. Currently driving a 2004 Civic with 105,000 miles on it, which replaced a 1992 Civic at 120,000 miles, which replaced a 1980 Buick Regal I bought for $1,800 in 1987. The Civics are/were excellent, reliable cars; the Regal was a POS but did what I needed it to do for the last two years of college and three years of law school.

But at this point in my life -- almost 49, one kid starting college in the fall and the other ninth grade, extremely safe six-figure job for 20 years at a company that still has a defined-benefit pension plan, large 401k and other investments on top of the pension -- I feel like I can indulge myself a little. We don't go on vacations, we don't have boats or cabins or like millstones around our necks, we don't even eat out anymore. The only toys that at all interest me are electric guitars, but I have one already (late 90s American Standard Telecaster) and I don't have time to play it as it is (and stink when I do), so as much as I'd like to pick up a Les Paul or a Gretsch or some other such beauty I simply can't justify it.

But we need a new car, and I want something that's fast and fun yet can still be relied on during the long Minnesota winter. Maybe AWD isn't absolutely necessary for winter driving, but I can tell you that there have been many situations over the years which the Subaru Outback could handle with ease but which were much more challenging or even impossible for the Civic. So it will take a lot to convince me that we don't need AWD on at least one of our cars.

Fast and fun excludes the Civics and Camrys of the world, honorable though they are, but there are tons of options at $35K or less and I see no reason why I should spend anything more than that to get what I want. Status means nothing to me -- indeed, the fact that the BMW 228i is a BMW and not something less snooty is a strike against it, not for it, but it fits my requirements otherwise and thus is on the table.

We will be paying straight cash for this, or perhaps financing $10K or so for a brief period to take advantage of discounts (I was quoted $1,600 on the A3), as one of my cardinal rules (shared by Wife) is never to borrow money to finance a depreciating asset. But in closing, I gotta say, weaving through traffic on the interstate at 95+ mph during the A3 test drive was a BLAST, and that counts for a lot, at least in my book.
See my list above. They all meet the requirements. But somehow I suspect a Golf R is in your future.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by inbox788 »

tj wrote:I'll never really understand the aversion to car loans when the rates are dirt cheap. Where else can you get a 6 year loan at 1.99% or lower? And sometimes you can get cash incentive for refinancing the loan which equals more than the interest actually paid on the loan.
From a fiance point, the past issue was high interest rate costs more, but low interest rates are terrific and you can keep cash invested for higher return. However, it's an issue today because it enables people who can't afford a new or expensive car to borrow for 6-8 years just to keep payments low. Some of these folks are under water for years. I remember a time when 20% down and 36 months was common, not 0% down 97 months, regardless of interest rate.

http://jalopnik.com/the-97-month-car-lo ... -472876323
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... /15237795/
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by sharpjm »

Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by TradingPlaces »

There are no entry level luxury cars under $40K.

These are junk luxury cars, bottom of the barrel, in many cases, made from inferior components.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by TradingPlaces »

inbox788 wrote: From a fiance point, the past issue was high interest rate costs more, but low interest rates are terrific and you can keep cash invested for higher return. However, it's an issue today because it enables people who can't afford a new or expensive car to borrow for 6-8 years just to keep payments low. Some of these folks are under water for years. I remember a time when 20% down and 36 months was common, not 0% down 97 months, regardless of interest rate.
It appears that the issue has nothing to do with the interest rate. The issue has to do with the extraordinarily long loan, and lack of downpayment.

Imagine that these were the loan terms:

- 20% down,
- $200 / mo payment, for 36 months.

What is the maximum car you can buy? Well, convert $200 to a loan principal, and then multiply by 1.25.

Under all interest rate regimes, that will result in the same expenditure, and more importantly, the same "affordability".

Now, when the 20% down is eliminated and loan is extended to 97 months, that's what makes the net present value of the payments higher, thereby, allowing the payer to "afford" a more expensive car.

I would rather pay a nominal interest rate, e.g., 1-1.5%, under all circumstances.

Affording something is an entirely different issue than taking a loan to finance it.
Last edited by TradingPlaces on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by sandramjet »

ESK wrote:
I agree. I subscribed to consumer reports' website yesterday. It is only $6.95 per month and I intend to cancel my subscription once we buy a car.

I have been researching each car on Consumer Reports as well enjoying the anecdotal evidence provided on this forum.
Just as an FYI, consider checking your local library website ... often times if you are a library member you can access all of the reviews and reliability info from the CR website without having to subscribe.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by White Coat Investor »

ESK wrote:I think the problem is that I don't like flashy cars and was happy with the Subaru. I also don't care about pep. But this will be my husband's car and he cares a lot about pep and doesn't like the stodgyness of a Suburu. He only drove it when the weather was bad. He was okay with driving the civic because it was peppier than the Subaru.

We can spend more than $20,000. I just don't want to because that's what we have in cash. I am reluctantly conceding that we will have to get a car loan to buy a car that my husband can stand driving.
You are aware there is a peppy Subaru, right?

My buddy had an STI. It felt like a race car to me. Zero to 60 in 4.8 seconds seemed like plenty of pep to me.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by southbay »

I drive a Forester XT (the turbo version) which has plenty of pep for a car with utility. It does 0-60 in just over 6 seconds, has all wheel drive, very spacious seating, can haul tons of stuff, is safe, reliable, gets pretty good gas mileage, and holds it value well. No, it's not flashy, but it is perfect for me.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by KyleAAA »

bloom2708 wrote: I do find it interesting that many Bogleheads will scrimp and save .10%, .25% or .50% on an Expense Ratio and would never pay an advisor 1% but are OK with a lifetime of car payments or mortgage payments. I realize the amounts are smaller and you don't have the compounding. But if you invested that 2% or 3% in interest it WOULD have compounded.
But it wouldn't have compounded nearly as much as it does when you borrow the money at a low rate and leave your money invested instead. Cheap leverage is wise from a strictly financial standpoint provided you aren't in danger of being unable to service the debt.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by yatesd »

sharpjm wrote:Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
This video is comparing the Subaru against CUV's that are front wheel drive by default and only "kick in" RWD as a way to tout AWD capabilities while keeping gas mileage high.

Not all vehicles are created equal. I almost bought an Audi A4 so I am a fan (and took one on a racetrack at an Audi event). However, my Cadillac CTS probably has a better AWD system (and better front to rear weight distribution) than the Audi. It uses a very good Borg Warner AWD with 75% bias to the rear by default with 100% control in either direction. Combined with my limited slip it would probably do better than a Forester. Ground clearance is the only issue.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ThankYouJack »

yatesd wrote:
sharpjm wrote:Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
This video is comparing the Subaru against CUV's that are front wheel drive by default and only "kick in" RWD as a way to tout AWD capabilities while keeping gas mileage high.

Not all vehicles are created equal. I almost bought an Audi A4 so I am a fan (and took one on a racetrack at an Audi event). However, my Cadillac CTS probably has a better AWD system (and better front to rear weight distribution) than the Audi. It uses a very good Borg Warner AWD with 75% bias to the rear by default with 100% control in either direction. Combined with my limited slip it would probably do better than a Forester. Ground clearance is the only issue.
I agree. Since AWD systems get pretty technical, I think the video above is a good basic example to show a typical consumer that not all cars labeled "AWD" will perform the same.

I really like the X-mode on my Subaru. You can literally feel the car working and breaking automatically under you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d0dCotncVs It's an 11 minute video but 1:51 and 7:43 show the actual car ascending and descending
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by BogleBoogie »

ESK wrote:I think the problem is that I don't like flashy cars and was happy with the Subaru. I also don't care about pep. But this will be my husband's car and he cares a lot about pep and doesn't like the stodgyness of a Suburu. He only drove it when the weather was bad. He was okay with driving the civic because it was peppier than the Subaru.

We can spend more than $20,000. I just don't want to because that's what we have in cash. I am reluctantly conceding that we will have to get a car loan to buy a car that my husband can stand driving.
Subaru WRX STI is about about as "peppy" as they come!
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by Lindrobe »

Van wrote:A luxury car for under 40k does not exist, at least not a new one
Disagree. I special ordered a brand new Audi A5 in 2013. Chose every option I wanted including heated seats, LED headlights, bluetooth, chestnut brown leather interior, bla bla bla. Did not get navigation, but paid $40,000. It can be done.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by sharpjm »

yatesd wrote:
sharpjm wrote:Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
This video is comparing the Subaru against CUV's that are front wheel drive by default and only "kick in" RWD as a way to tout AWD capabilities while keeping gas mileage high.

Not all vehicles are created equal. I almost bought an Audi A4 so I am a fan (and took one on a racetrack at an Audi event). However, my Cadillac CTS probably has a better AWD system (and better front to rear weight distribution) than the Audi. It uses a very good Borg Warner AWD with 75% bias to the rear by default with 100% control in either direction. Combined with my limited slip it would probably do better than a Forester. Ground clearance is the only issue.
As I mentioned in my first post, you can check other videos on youtube and find tons of similar results. I just posted the first video that popped up in a google search.

I don't know much about the cadillac AWD system and I couldn't find much information about it in a google search. Based on the limited information I could find, it is set at a 25/75 front/rear split which is already geared towards performance (acceleration) rather than poor weather handling. But where most AWD systems fall on their face is when only 1 wheel has traction or when only 1 side has traction. So the front/rear bias has less influence than what you give it credit.

But this is just my anecdotal argument against your anecdotal argument. I will keep searching online for an objective comparison and post if I find anything.

And the base price for a CTS with AWD is $48k so I'm not sure why Cadillac was even mentioned in this discussion.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ESK »

EmergDoc wrote:
ESK wrote:I think the problem is that I don't like flashy cars and was happy with the Subaru. I also don't care about pep. But this will be my husband's car and he cares a lot about pep and doesn't like the stodgyness of a Suburu. He only drove it when the weather was bad. He was okay with driving the civic because it was peppier than the Subaru.

We can spend more than $20,000. I just don't want to because that's what we have in cash. I am reluctantly conceding that we will have to get a car loan to buy a car that my husband can stand driving.
You are aware there is a peppy Subaru, right?

My buddy had an STI. It felt like a race car to me. Zero to 60 in 4.8 seconds seemed like plenty of pep to me.
My husband will be visiting the Subaru dealership this afternoon and will drive the WRX STi, the Legacy and possibly also the Forrester. He says, "I wouldn’t put too much stock in my reaction to the A3. It could just be that cars have gotten a lot better in the past ten years. And remember that I’m used to driving a Civic. I feel a little like I’m emerging from Plato’s Cave and looking at real cars instead of their shadows for the first time. I probably would have loved the first thing I test drove no matter what it was."

I will report back on what he thinks.
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Re: Consumer Reports April Car Issue

Post by ivyhedge »

Taylor Larimore wrote:May I suggest you get a copy of Consumer Reports April Car Issue.

There is nothing more instructive than the thousands of objective tests and results of various new and used cars. I would never buy a car without reading the Consumer Reports annual car issue (which just went on sale). It should be available at any public library.
^This^ And couple it with a (free) subscription at Michael Karesh's "TrueDelta" site to use the reliability comparison tool. Set benchmarks in the categories to compare: Accord, Camry, etc. If you care about reliability beyond making passing reference to it, some of the aforementioned models will dissolve from the list as quickly as that Dodge Charger...
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by surfstar »

southbay wrote:I drive a Forester XT (the turbo version) which has plenty of pep for a car with utility. It does 0-60 in just over 6 seconds, has all wheel drive, very spacious seating, can haul tons of stuff, is safe, reliable, gets pretty good gas mileage, and holds it value well. No, it's not flashy, but it is perfect for me.
Test drive one of these ^

and read some reviews of them too. Seems like a good compromise for someone who wants "pep" (I don't look for that in my cars, though, too cheap and worry about mpg!)
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ThankYouJack »

ESK wrote:
My husband will be visiting the Subaru dealership this afternoon and will drive the WRX STi, the Legacy and possibly also the Forrester. He says, "I wouldn’t put too much stock in my reaction to the A3. It could just be that cars have gotten a lot better in the past ten years. And remember that I’m used to driving a Civic. I feel a little like I’m emerging from Plato’s Cave and looking at real cars instead of their shadows for the first time. I probably would have loved the first thing I test drove no matter what it was."

I will report back on what he thinks.
The Legacy is going to feel like driving a school bus after driving the STI. At least try the 3.6R Legacy. Also, hammer on some corners or fly around a roundabout with the STi. It can handle it
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by TRC »

Look for a leftover or slightly used Acura TL SHAWD. Larger than the cars you mentioned and way more reliable.
INDUBITABLY
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by INDUBITABLY »

Don't bother with AWD. You are better served with a set of proper snow tires mounted on a second set of wheels. You can then ditch the increased weight, mechanical complexity, cost and drivetrain losses. As a bonus, your primary set of tires can then be of the high performance summer variety (Dunlop Star Specs, Bridgestone RE-11s, etc.).

Re pep and luxury, you will get used to it after not all that long and it will stop being special. It did for me, I bought a Corvette Z06 a few years back and honestly you test very little of a modern performance car's capability on public roads. You can only launch from stop lights so many times before it gets old. If I didn't take it to autocrosses and track days, I probably would have sold it already.
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Hunter4
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by Hunter4 »

Just to add something else to the discussion that might be relevant.

My good friend owns a Outback XT (another car you should look at). They don't make them anymore but they're the Outback version with a turbo in it. Really comfortable, fast, lots of room and nice (best sunroof ever) and you can get one with nav if you want. Could easily pick up a low miles one for close to 20k.

The next thing to know is he's taking it to be tuned at a pro tuner shop and talked for a while with the owner. This guy has been working on Subaru's for almost 20 years and told him straight up that the engine in a WRX and STI is the SAME - the WRX engine is detuned, while the STI's is "regular." Both of the written HP claims by Subaru are off by about 25-30 (so the a WRX at 265hp really gets about 235hp at the wheel). If he likes the Subaru, I'd recommend getting the version of the WRX that you really like, then just take it into a good tuning shop to push it to it's full potential. That means you could get a "STI-lite" for way less than the prices they're asking.

If he likes speed, power and AWD and can wait a little while, the Ford RS coming in 2016 looks pretty amazing.

http://jalopnik.com/2016-ford-focus-rs- ... 1683323602
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by harikaried »

ThankYouJack wrote:The Legacy is going to feel like driving a school bus after driving the STI
I don't understand the relationship of peppiness for accelerating from 0 vs horsepower.. but here's various numbers:

Forester: 170hp @5800 rpm
Forester XT: 250hp @5600 rpm
Legacy: 175hp @5800 rpm
Legacy 3.6R: 256hp @6000 rpm
WRX: 268hp @5600rpm
WRX STI: 305hp @ 6000 rpm

So STI is 20% ahead of the XT/3.6R/WRX which are 50% ahead of base Forester/Legacy.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by letsgobobby »

INDUBITABLY wrote:Don't bother with AWD. You are better served with a set of proper snow tires mounted on a second set of wheels. You can then ditch the increased weight, mechanical complexity, cost and drivetrain losses. As a bonus, your primary set of tires can then be of the high performance summer variety (Dunlop Star Specs, Bridgestone RE-11s, etc.).

Re pep and luxury, you will get used to it after not all that long and it will stop being special. It did for me, I bought a Corvette Z06 a few years back and honestly you test very little of a modern performance car's capability on public roads. You can only launch from stop lights so many times before it gets old. If I didn't take it to autocrosses and track days, I probably would have sold it already.
It sounds like you know a lot about tires and cars.

I've always wondered about the strategy you suggest, of course cost is one factor but here is the other. For us, we have 3-5 months of steady light rain with intermittent downpours and then driving in the snow in the mountains; and then another 3-4 months of on and off rain and sun. There is a saying that Summer 1975 was the most beautiful summer in Seattle history - it came on a weekend. Down here in Portland, summer is longer and very distinct - 90 days of nearly completely dry weather and ideal temperatures - but might still take the vehicle into the mountains on dirt roads, etc.

Given this driving pattern I've never been able to figure out what a set of 'summer' or 'winter' tires would look like so I just stick with my all seasons.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by autonomy »

sharpjm wrote:Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
Meh, I don't disagree that Subaru's 4WD is best, but that video is bunk as it demonstrates an extreme situation (and compares different tires too). I'm a pretty outdoorsy person, have driven on plenty dirt roads in sedans, and the worst I've driven was up a 15-degree muddy incline on all-season FWD and traction control was all that was needed. If there's a need to drive up 30-degree slippery inclines (as in you drive on snow-packed roads or steep wintery hills in Western MA, or upstate NY, or NH), then 4WD plus clearance should be top priorities. If conditions in the winter get that bad, you should probably not be driving at all. Otherwise, like INDUBITABLY said, you are most likely better off trading off the weight and fuel efficiency penalties for peppiness, which is what the OP really wants. There were maybe 3 times during this terrible winter that I wished I had AWD, and it was to get going in 4+ inches of snow. Stopping has not been a problem, and it's been almost every day this winter that I was glad I had snow tires.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by sharpjm »

autonomy wrote:
sharpjm wrote:Only one other person mentioned this but I will add to it -

If you really want/need AWD you need to stick with Audi or Subaru. Other AWD systems are far inferior. You may be very disappointed when the BMW/Acura/Buick/Etc gets stuck where a Subaru/Audi won't.

Here is one youtube video you can check to really visualize the difference. From this video, you can check all the related videos in the sidebar to see other results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuvwYd9JuE
Meh, I don't disagree that Subaru's 4WD is best, but that video is bunk as it demonstrates an extreme situation (and compares different tires too).
Sure, the tires may be different. There are other videos that show AWD comparisons on youtube and the meticulous buyer will look at more videos than just the one I linked. The OP said he was considering AWD systems from a variety of mfgs and I responded by mentioning that many AWD systems are sub-par. The discussion of AWD vs no AWD is a completely separate discussion. Personally I wouldn't want AWD for my daily driven vehicle (although my opinion would probably change if I lived in an area that had consistent winter precipitation. I haven't seen snow in 7+ years :P)
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ESK »

Husband says:
Test drove the Subaru Legacy today. Very solid car, a good $5K cheaper than the A3, and certainly zippier than what I'm used to, but the A3 is unquestionably superior in the zip department (turbo makes a big difference). Wanted to try the 3.6 liter version but they were out; same problem with the very intriguing WRX. There are four other Subaru dealerships in the area, so maybe I'll have better luck at one of those. The long march continues.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by kvoss »

I've been very happy with my 2014 BMW 328d XD. It's a diesel with excellent mileage and range and also has AWD which got me through all of the snow and ice of this last Winter without problems. I can't speak to it's longevity and maintenance yet (only around 6K miles so far) but I've had zero problems with it.

I've owned various Jeeps and Subaru's in the past and this car is a definite step up in luxury and performance.

Kevin
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by LadyGeek »

Back on page 1 of this thread, I removed one of ESK husband's "non-PC" (not Politically Correct) comments, along with a follow-up.

This forum maintains a "family friendly" environment, which means to use civil language (OK here) and to avoid referencing stereotypes which can be perceived in derogatory manner (what was removed).
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ThankYouJack »

harikaried wrote:
ThankYouJack wrote:The Legacy is going to feel like driving a school bus after driving the STI
I don't understand the relationship of peppiness for accelerating from 0 vs horsepower.. but here's various numbers:

Forester: 170hp @5800 rpm
Forester XT: 250hp @5600 rpm
Legacy: 175hp @5800 rpm
Legacy 3.6R: 256hp @6000 rpm
WRX: 268hp @5600rpm
WRX STI: 305hp @ 6000 rpm

So STI is 20% ahead of the XT/3.6R/WRX which are 50% ahead of base Forester/Legacy.
The 0-60 time for the STi is 4.7 seconds and about 8.7 seconds for the 2.5 Legacy that he drove today (almost twice as slow). And just sitting in an STI will feel faster than sitting in a Legacy. The STI is a beast of a car that is tuned for handling, speed, driving enjoyment and has a 6 speed manual transmission. IMO, an STI is way too much car for most people as a commuter car.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by Qprkid »

goblegoble wrote:Look into Hyundai Genesis
+1.

Buy a lightly used one, and receive a Boglehead Gold Star.
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William4u
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by William4u »

The lexus ES300h starts around 41k, and is a great car.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by BrandonBogle »

There have been a few mentions about this in the posts, but most seem to have glazed over them. Why limit the selection to new cars? You can find cars from 2010 and on in the "luxury" category for under 40k no problem. This could run the gamut of options. I almost bought a M37x after driving around a G37x for a few days, but deciding to go in a different direction. In my area, a 2012 M37x would go for around 40k. The same can become available for Audis, BMWs, and MBs too. After having a VW EOS for 18 months, I am terrified of "German reliability", but there are other options out there too. Just food for thought that I would look more into what overall the Op's husband wants to narrow it down to one or two cars, and then look at used to see where you have to go back to in order to fit it in your budget. Even buying at 30k miles and owning to 100k miles could very well be worth it. Meanwhile, time to jump into my 2006 4Runner 4WD V6, which does NOT meet the peppy drive characteristics the Op and her husband are looking for! ;)
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by yatesd »

First of all, I own the CTS and researched it extensively. I have also researched the Subaru & Audi extensively. They were the other two cars I looked at prior to going with the CTS in 2008. I can provide all the "details" you need, but would be taking this off topic. A used CTS is definitely in the price range, but a new ATS should be accessible under $40K with better reliability and handling over a typical BMW 3 series. Cadillac also tends to be more reliable than many of the other cars recommended (Audi, Subaru, VW, etc.).

In addition, I wasn't giving the default split credit. However, most of the cars in your video have the default set to 0% in the rear (which would be a really big deal in your video since all the weight is shifted to the rear). Transitioning 100% to either extreme is important, but you missed the other critical point about my mechanical "limited slip". It addresses the "one wheel with traction" issue.

Also, you should know that Subaru has generally used many different AWD systems and can vary between cars with manual shifters, base automatics, or higher trim levels.The last three paragraphs give an overview of these differences http://www.subaru-global.com/tec_awd.html

3 year reliability rankings by brand from J.D. Power

Rank/Brand, problems (industry average: 147)

Lexus, 89
Buick, 110
Toyota, 111
Cadillac, 114
Honda, 116
Porsche, 116
Lincoln, 118
Mercedes-Benz, 119
Scion, 121
Chevrolet, 123
GMC, 123
Acura, 124
Nissan, 128
Ram, 134
Audi, 138
Mazda, 140
Mitsubishi, 140
Infiniti, 144
BMW 146
Subaru, 157
Kia, 158
Volkswagen, 165
Chrysler, 173
Volvo, 174
Ford, 188
Hyundai, 188
Dodge, 192
Mini, 193
Jeep, 197
Land Rover, 258
Fiat, 273
As I mentioned in my first post, you can check other videos on youtube and find tons of similar results. I just posted the first video that popped up in a google search.

I don't know much about the cadillac AWD system and I couldn't find much information about it in a google search. Based on the limited information I could find, it is set at a 25/75 front/rear split which is already geared towards performance (acceleration) rather than poor weather handling. But where most AWD systems fall on their face is when only 1 wheel has traction or when only 1 side has traction. So the front/rear bias has less influence than what you give it credit.

But this is just my anecdotal argument against your anecdotal argument. I will keep searching online for an objective comparison and post if I find anything.

And the base price for a CTS with AWD is $48k so I'm not sure why Cadillac was even mentioned in this discussion.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ThankYouJack »

yatesd wrote:
3 year reliability rankings by brand from J.D. Power

Rank/Brand, problems (industry average: 147)

Lexus, 89
Buick, 110
Toyota, 111
....
When I look for reliability, I look in terms of is my car going to last 10+ years / 200k+ miles without major repairs. So I don't think the JD Power survey is that useful since it's only 3 year reliability. Most cars are still under warranty within 3 years.

Plus, the JD Power is more design related issues like is Bluetooth pairing correctly and voice recognition commands. I care more about the major repair stuff -- engine, transmission, drive system, electrical.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/study- ... esults.htm
The top two problems reported by owners in the study are Bluetooth pairing and connectivity, and built-in voice recognition systems misinterpreting the driver's commands. These were the same two problems most frequently reported by owners in last year's Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS).
Six of the 10 most frequently reported problems are design-related as opposed to defects or malfunctions.

So what's a good vehicle reliability study to determine reliability over a 10 year, 150k+ mile period? I think Consumer Reports does a much better analysis than JD Power but haven't looked into it that much so there may be something better.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ESK »

Qprkid wrote:
goblegoble wrote:Look into Hyundai Genesis
+1.

Buy a lightly used one, and receive a Boglehead Gold Star.
Strangely, there are no Hyundai dealers in our area. Also, TrueCar puts the purchase price at over $40,000 for the all-wheel-drive model. I thank you for your suggestion nonetheless.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by sharpjm »

yatesd wrote:
Also, you should know that Subaru has generally used many different AWD systems and can vary between cars with manual shifters, base automatics, or higher trim levels.The last three paragraphs give an overview of these differences http://www.subaru-global.com/tec_awd.html
As I mentioned in my first post, you can check other videos on youtube and find tons of similar results. I just posted the first video that popped up in a google search.

I don't know much about the cadillac AWD system and I couldn't find much information about it in a google search. Based on the limited information I could find, it is set at a 25/75 front/rear split which is already geared towards performance (acceleration) rather than poor weather handling. But where most AWD systems fall on their face is when only 1 wheel has traction or when only 1 side has traction. So the front/rear bias has less influence than what you give it credit.

But this is just my anecdotal argument against your anecdotal argument. I will keep searching online for an objective comparison and post if I find anything.

And the base price for a CTS with AWD is $48k so I'm not sure why Cadillac was even mentioned in this discussion.
And as I continue to point out, you can look at other comparison videos on youtube, not just the one I linked. The videos will show many different models and years of Subarus performing equal to or better than other mfgs in limited traction conditions. Most of the models with higher end AWD systems are performance based vehicles. Most of the vehicles in youtube videos are the baseline barebones models and they are still able to outperform competitors.

Would you be able to share your extensive research about the CTS AWD system with us? I am honestly interested in learning more about it.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by yatesd »

sharpjm wrote:Would you be able to share your extensive research about the CTS AWD system with us? I am honestly interested in learning more about it.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ca ... 49503.html
What makes this particular thread interesting is the GM engineer chimed in on the discussion.Here is some of the info I had gathered when I was doing my initial research.

After much back and forth consideration I ultimately went with the CTS over the Audi for 3 reasons:

- The dealer experience at the VW/Audi dealer was awful (main reason I even added the CTS to my research)
- Reliability of Cadillac was better overall than Audi
- The front to rear distribution was better, regular gas vs. premium was icing on the cake
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ESK »

We may have a winner: the Subaru WRX Premium with CVT (about $30k). Not the even zippier WRX STi:
DH:
Just the base WRX; that's fast enough for me. Plus a good $10K cheaper. And the WRX is about $5K cheaper than the A3, which makes me feel like I'm getting a deal. The thing I'm really torn about is manual vs. automatic. The manual is super scarce right now and I'd probably have to wait a month for them to scare one up. There's an automatic available in exactly the color and package I want, and even that won't be here until May 6. I think I'm going to go for that; I figure that if I really start lusting after the manual I can always trade later. These things hold their value really well (or so I'm told), so hopefully I wouldn't take a bath on it.
We checked Consumer Reports take on this car and the only downsides relevant to our situation is that they won't predict reliability because this is a new model and "[t]he visors don't slide on their mounting rods for side coverage ..."

He's going to test drive a GTI and I'm going to look into some of the Ford models but we may be done with our search after that.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by harikaried »

ESK wrote:We may have a winner: the Subaru WRX Premium with CVT (about $30k).
What timing! 2016 WRX was just announced today:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 70944.html

Not sure if the new improvements/features or pricing affect your decision. The limited trim gets a package with EyeSight, other safety tech, keyless, harman/kardon, navigation.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by amd2135 »

I love my '14 Mazda6. Great handling, fun to drive and more than enough power unless you load the car full of people and luggage. Fuel economy is excellent and so has been/should be its reliability.

I put a set of Blizzak snow tires on 17" wheels for the winter and absolutely dominated my old 4WD GMC Envoy in the snow. Never have I felt safer driving in snow storms. AWD/4WD is completely unnecessary for snow traction in my direct experience.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ubermax »

I would stretch a bit into the mid 40's range and consider the BMW X3 - great in snow with just all seasons and very peppy - we have an '08 and love it - possibly next year their new model will be rolled out and from some preliminary reports that I've read it will be pretty sweet , 425hp ( mucho peppy !) and a flatter cargo area with rear seat flipped down along with other improvements ; I'm guessing it'll be priced so that out the door it'll go for mid 40's after the usual incentives and haggling :happy
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by ragabnh »

Bought 2013 328 XDrive fall 2014, it was a left over and had 800 miles on the odometer, this one is optioned with cold weather and lighting packages and has the navigation package. MSRP was $47000 got it for $35500.

Fantastic car, so much fun to drive and is plenty powerful, with 2 liter biturbo and intercooled. Great car for snow as well since it is AWD.

No issues with the car but it has only 5000 miles at this time.

Also I have to say that Mazda3 and Mazda6 are great cars and fun to drive, I almost got the 6 prior to buying the bimmer.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by TravelforFun »

Has anyone mentioned Lexus? We bought a brand new ES350 a couple of weeks ago and absolutely love it.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by opus360 »

ESK...what car did you or your spouse get?

If you haven't gotten one yet, I'll give you a quick run down.

Subaru Legacy - base version is slow. 3.6R is pretty fast, but not that fast, low 7 secs 0-60mph. Car isn't fun to drive.

You need winter tires for best traction. If you don't want to keep on changing tires, go with Nokian WR G3.

$30k - best choice is VW GTI.

$40k - BMW 328, similar to GTI but with better steering feel. 335 will be a lot faster than GTI.

$50k - BMW M235 - everything you want in a sports car, or go with Porsche Macan S for more practicality. In either case, go easy on the options or you'll be looking at $10k-20k more easily.
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by FireSekr »

letsgobobby wrote:
INDUBITABLY wrote:Don't bother with AWD. You are better served with a set of proper snow tires mounted on a second set of wheels. You can then ditch the increased weight, mechanical complexity, cost and drivetrain losses. As a bonus, your primary set of tires can then be of the high performance summer variety (Dunlop Star Specs, Bridgestone RE-11s, etc.).

Re pep and luxury, you will get used to it after not all that long and it will stop being special. It did for me, I bought a Corvette Z06 a few years back and honestly you test very little of a modern performance car's capability on public roads. You can only launch from stop lights so many times before it gets old. If I didn't take it to autocrosses and track days, I probably would have sold it already.
It sounds like you know a lot about tires and cars.

I've always wondered about the strategy you suggest, of course cost is one factor but here is the other. For us, we have 3-5 months of steady light rain with intermittent downpours and then driving in the snow in the mountains; and then another 3-4 months of on and off rain and sun. There is a saying that Summer 1975 was the most beautiful summer in Seattle history - it came on a weekend. Down here in Portland, summer is longer and very distinct - 90 days of nearly completely dry weather and ideal temperatures - but might still take the vehicle into the mountains on dirt roads, etc.

Given this driving pattern I've never been able to figure out what a set of 'summer' or 'winter' tires would look like so I just stick with my all seasons.
Summer and winter tires provide significantly better traction in rain than all seasons. Two factors account for wet traction:
1. Tire compound - on damp roads (and dry for that matter) having a softer/stickier tire improves traction
2. Tread Pattern - This is more of a factor in deep water. The proper tread pattern will reduce the tire's potential to hydro plane

All season tires will struggle to keep up with a summer or winter tire in terms of both. The All Seasons tire compound isn't suited to wet conditions because they are designed to work over a broader temperature range, so they tend to be too stiff. A summer tire's tread stays soft above 40 degrees Fahrenheit and a winter tire's tread stays properly soft below 40.

The tread patterns are also optimized on summer/winter tires, while the all season are somewhere in between because they try to do everything and succeed at nothing.

Edmunds did a test a few years back using the exact same car on a controlled course and found the all seasons to significantly lag in safety/performance in nearly every category. As an example, stopping distance from 60-0MPH in wet conditions:
1. Summer - 157 FT
2. Winter - 181 FT
3. All Season - 215 FT

Here's a link to the full test http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/feat ... ummer.html

Whether you have AWD or not won't improve your ability to stop. Lot of people on this forum talk ad nausea about safety but they ignore the fact that having the proper tire will save you 3 car lengths stopping distance.

I'm in Seattle and just got rid of the all seasons that came standard on my BMW. The summer tires have significantly better grip in the dry and insanely better grip in the rain than the all seasons. Even though I have AWD that is not a substitute for having the proper tires. It won't help you stop. I'll be switching to snow tires in the winter
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Re: “Entry level” luxury cars under 40k

Post by FireSekr »

opus360 wrote:ESK...what car did you or your spouse get?

If you haven't gotten one yet, I'll give you a quick run down.

Subaru Legacy - base version is slow. 3.6R is pretty fast, but not that fast, low 7 secs 0-60mph. Car isn't fun to drive.

You need winter tires for best traction. If you don't want to keep on changing tires, go with Nokian WR G3.

$30k - best choice is VW GTI.

$40k - BMW 328, similar to GTI but with better steering feel. 335 will be a lot faster than GTI.

$50k - BMW M235 - everything you want in a sports car, or go with Porsche Macan S for more practicality. In either case, go easy on the options or you'll be looking at $10k-20k more easily.
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