Restaurant tipping

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John3754
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by John3754 »

toto238 wrote:I believe I have been financially blessed, and I'm quite certain that I'm in a much better financial situation than any waiter/waitress who has served me.

It simply just doesn't feel right to look at someone much poorer than you, judge them, and punish them if they don't meet your expectations. It's human to WANT to do it. To have that kind of power, you feel like a king. You have control over what this servant will be paid. If you feel nice that day, you may be generous. If you are displeased, you shall give less, or maybe nothing at all. Ahh, to have such power over another human being. There's a reason that there's more slaves in the world today than at any time in human history. The feeling of dominating another human being is a primal satisfaction. It is perfectly natural for humans to want to have that feeling.

But just because it's natural, doesn't make it right. It is one of the worst parts of human nature, in my opinion, and the atrocities that have been committed because of it speak for themselves. I don't want to feed into this nature at all.

Sometimes it can be difficult to think of all other human beings as equals. But with a little practice, it gets easier and you are a happier person for it.
Aren't we getting just a bit hyperbolic here?

Hyperbole aside, isn't the entire point of the tipping system to encourage good service by giving the customer the "power" to reward good service and punish bad service?
toto238
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 »

John3754 wrote:
toto238 wrote:I believe I have been financially blessed, and I'm quite certain that I'm in a much better financial situation than any waiter/waitress who has served me.

It simply just doesn't feel right to look at someone much poorer than you, judge them, and punish them if they don't meet your expectations. It's human to WANT to do it. To have that kind of power, you feel like a king. You have control over what this servant will be paid. If you feel nice that day, you may be generous. If you are displeased, you shall give less, or maybe nothing at all. Ahh, to have such power over another human being. There's a reason that there's more slaves in the world today than at any time in human history. The feeling of dominating another human being is a primal satisfaction. It is perfectly natural for humans to want to have that feeling.

But just because it's natural, doesn't make it right. It is one of the worst parts of human nature, in my opinion, and the atrocities that have been committed because of it speak for themselves. I don't want to feed into this nature at all.

Sometimes it can be difficult to think of all other human beings as equals. But with a little practice, it gets easier and you are a happier person for it.
Aren't we getting just a bit hyperbolic here?

Hyperbole aside, isn't the entire point of the tipping system to encourage good service by giving the customer the "power" to reward good service and punish bad service?
Of course that's the point. And holding that kind of "power" over another human being is intoxicating. It's a great feeling. It's the same reason people like to treat customer service reps poorly over the phone, why people abuse waiters, yell at the clerk at the grocery store, and the same reason people today still hold slaves. Showing dominance over another human being feels good. But it's wrong. That's just my opinion though.

I say pay waiter's a fair market wage and get rid of tipping altogether. If I'm not satisfied with my experience, I won't come back to that restaurant or I'll ask for a different server. That incentivizes the restaurant to make sure they're training their waiters/waitresses well since poor service more directly affects their bottom line. Heaven forbid restaurant owners have to pay more than minimum wage to attract waitstaff that will provide excellent service. The horror. They'd have to raise the price of their meals by 10-20%. Which is what we were tipping already.
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yatesd
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by yatesd »

toto238 wrote:I believe I have been financially blessed, and I'm quite certain that I'm in a much better financial situation than any waiter/waitress who has served me.

It simply just doesn't feel right to look at someone much poorer than you, judge them, and punish them if they don't meet your expectations. It's human to WANT to do it. To have that kind of power, you feel like a king. You have control over what this servant will be paid. If you feel nice that day, you may be generous. If you are displeased, you shall give less, or maybe nothing at all. Ahh, to have such power over another human being. There's a reason that there's more slaves in the world today than at any time in human history. The feeling of dominating another human being is a primal satisfaction. It is perfectly natural for humans to want to have that feeling.

But just because it's natural, doesn't make it right. It is one of the worst parts of human nature, in my opinion, and the atrocities that have been committed because of it speak for themselves. I don't want to feed into this nature at all.

Sometimes it can be difficult to think of all other human beings as equals. But with a little practice, it gets easier and you are a happier person for it.
Your thoughts are way over the top. I would start by going back to your employer and negotiating a lower income. I suspect it would allow them to pay others with lower wages a little more. If you buy a car I hope you over pay by a few thousand. Many car salespeople get less than minimum wage after factoring in their hours. Also, I hope you realize by eating out at restaurants with servers you are denying employees at McDonalds employment. Very sad...

BTW, I say please and thank you. Always have...I had a part time job cleaning a laundromat and also working as a cashier at a convenience store when I was a kid. No tips, and certainly didn't make as much money as an average server. IMHO being a server is one of the higher earning entry level jobs.

I'd be interested in knowing what you do for a living...
mortal
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by mortal »

I always thought that tipping a percentage was strange. The waiter does the same work if they're serving you coffee and a 7 dollar waffle or a fancy $15 italian dish.

I nearly always tip $2 or $3 bucks. Granted I don't usually spend more than $15 on a meal out, so I think it's fair. I also think the waitress at waffle house could use a generous tip more than the waiter at the snooty itailian place (you can tell which one I go to more often).

The only exception I make is when the service is above and beyond. Like the time I ordered ribs at a fancy restaurant, and the waiter brought out a bowl of hot water, an extra cloth napkin, and was totally cool about it. He got a $20. I don't even remember how much the meal was, but I was impressed.
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JMacDonald
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by JMacDonald »

Here is an article in today's LA Times about tipping: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... tml#page=1
"Are we reaching the tipping point on restaurant tipping?"
I haven't read the whole conversation so I hope it hasn't already been posted.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by White Coat Investor »

I'm pretty tolerant of bad service. But if I'm pushed over the line, I don't leave a tip at all. Otherwise, 20%. I've worked for tips.
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jlawrence01
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jlawrence01 »

If tipping were to go away tomorrow, I believe that the average wage of servers would decrease, NOT increase. I also believe that the top waitstaff will move on to opportunities that pay better rather than accepting a lower wage.
Dandy
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Dandy »

I try to leave a larger percentage at the lower level restaurants than at the better restaurants for the same level of service. If the server is not attentive I would drop it a bit but sometimes when the service falters the server gets penalized when he/she might not be at fault. It's not the server's fault that the steak is tough but may be if it is cold.

I usually tip at least 15%. I also try to judge the amount of work the server puts in vs the value of the meal. Sometimes they do the same work for an expensive steak as they do for a grilled cheese sandwich.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

10-15% or less if service is poor/mediocre. I left a "dime" once as in a singular Roosevelt on the table because service was beyond mediocre, the waiter was rude, the concierge was rude and the food came out cold. They got the "message" and I never returned to that restaurant again. Believe me, the restaurant/server will get the message if the tip is below 18%. 20% if service is good/excellent. A couple of times, I've tipped much higher than that but on very rare occasions, and for service that was exceptional. But very rarely have I ever done that. I've never worked for tips, but I've worked in a service business - your employment and income is dependent on the customer/client being a repeat customer or being disappointed.
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Sunny Sarkar
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Sunny Sarkar »

tennisplyr wrote:Let's say you are eating at a good restaurant, what do you normally leave as a tip? Last night we had dinner out and the service was only so-so.....slow, got my dinner before my wife, no refill of water glasses, etc. Not awful but not great. I left 15% but wanted to leave less. My wife believes these people need tips for a living, I believe if I am not getting service why should I reward you. Was wondering what you folks do.
I'd still leave a standard tip (15-18%) - because tips are priced into the waiters' compensation and by extension into the price of the meal - but maybe I'd have a chat with the manager if the service was truly awful. If the service was above average, I'd leave an above average tip.
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flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison »

Like many others, I hate tipping and wish it would go away. Generally, 15% is my baseline for decent service, though it will vary depending on the cost of the meal, how many people I was with, how much time we occupied the space, and how difficult/complicated things were (special requests, etc.). Better service might earn a higher tip, and poor service will definitely result in a lower tip, or no tip at all.
toto238
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 »

A huge key here is I always tip pre-discount. If I'm using a coupon, or I'm going on a night where there's a special price (like 50 cent wing night), I tip based off of what my full bill would have been before discounts. It's not the waiters fault that I'm using a coupon or that there's a sale on something today. Why punish the waiter for it?
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kenyan
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by kenyan »

I tip between 15-20% on the pretax, pre-coupon (if applicable) amount, depending on how the service was, though I'm not too strict about the percentages. Standard service merits 15%. Sometimes I'll go a bit above that number on a smaller bill/cheaper place if it still required service, or if the service was outstanding for some reason.

I only remember one time where I was so appalled at the service that I didn't want to leave any tip. The plan was partially derailed by our waitress manning the cash register at the time we were leaving, and having her point out that we didn't indicate the tip. I wilted a bit under the pressure, but think I left around a 5% tip. One recent outing at a more upscale place also probably would've qualified for no tip, as the server completely forgot about us after dropping off water (there was a shift change, and we were seated in an out-of-the-way table), but the manager compensated us with free desserts.

Servers do get at least minimum wage in my state (California), so I would be fine with leaving no tip if it were warranted.
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scrabbler1
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by scrabbler1 »

toto238 wrote:A huge key here is I always tip pre-discount. If I'm using a coupon, or I'm going on a night where there's a special price (like 50 cent wing night), I tip based off of what my full bill would have been before discounts. It's not the waiters fault that I'm using a coupon or that there's a sale on something today. Why punish the waiter for it?
At some restaurants, the discount is indicated on the check as a separate entry so the patron knows what the pre-discounted price is. This can be done more easily nowadays with a computer-generated receipt. Similarly, one time in the last few years I was unhappy with the unusually small portions of food items on my plate. The waitress had the manager come out and the comped my meal. I made sure to tip the waitress on the original amount (and threw in another buck anyway). Never returned to the restaurant, though.
flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison »

kenyan wrote:
Servers do get at least minimum wage in my state (California), so I would be fine with leaving no tip if it were warranted.
If I knew servers were getting minimum wage, I don't think I would tip very much, if at all.
schmitz
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by schmitz »

climber2020 wrote:
schmitz wrote:I figure this thread is a good place for my tipping question (rather than start a new one):

My wife and I go out to eat often and we tip (what I think is) well...minimum of 20%. Sometimes 25% or 30%.

My question is since we do this, is morally ok to drop our tipping rate in the future when we are retired to say 10-15%? Is that being fair and does it all even out in the end? Tipping more now (since income is higher) to be able to tip lower later on?
If it were me, I would go out to eat less often and still leave a good tip. Like the last guy said... if you can't afford a proper tip, you can't afford to go out to eat.
So the fact that I'm tipping extra now doesn't help with this?
Johno
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Johno »

Besides how close this topic is to politics for a lot of people (I guess natural in such an intensively politically polarized society, almost everything is now), the other thing it reminds me of is how quirky people can be, including friends and family members sometimes, and how that can make eating out a miserable experience. If the service or food isn't good at a restaurant, I don't go back. Life is too short to get into 'polite' passive-aggressive 'discussions' with people who run or work at restaurants. You know, the kind where both sides smile and say 'sir' when can look at their face and see they mean 'you ******* ***** of ****'. Or when people I'm with get antsy when the service is slow. My dad used to do that and I *hated* it. It's skipped a generation and one of my grown kids is a little that way, fortunately the genes are watered down enough I can shake him out of it with humor. Anyway I'm not the guy from 'bar rescue' trying to give any 'message' how to run a restaurant. :D

Still, I can sympathize somewhat with the people who, told that the restaurant staff is 'at their service', take it literally. No, it's not like slavery, that's a ridiculous exaggeration. But OTOH that's not *really* how it works. The people who work at restaurants always think they deserve at least the std tip, plus a good wage, plus lots of other stuff: sense of entitlement is pandemic. And they think you're a **** if you don't give it to them. I just give it to them, like I said unless the situation is so extreme I'd just walk out before I even got the food, very rarely; but I don't go back if I wasn't happy with the overall experience, fairly often. And the food is what really counts and the quality has little to do with the people getting tipped. Filling my water glass, etc? I really don't care.
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Wildebeest
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Wildebeest »

My belief is that if you do not want to leave a 15 % tip, you should not go out to lunch or dinner.

I typically tip 20 % if the service is average and 15 % when the service is poor. If the service is excellent and the restaurant is reasonably priced and we had a great time, we will tip 25%.

I make an effort to be treat the waiting staff as I would like to be treated. I am glad, I do not have to wait on diners. When we go out with other couples, we typically split the bill and I have no interest to find out what the other couple(s) tipped.

Tips should be included in the charge of the breakfast, lunch or dinner.
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surfstar
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by surfstar »

Luckily we don't go out to eat much.

On work trips, I tip generously - and still pocket extra per diem, because I'm not into fancy meals. I also usually order water, but tip as if I'd ordered a drink.

If the service is horrid, I'd leave 10%. Poor 15%. Generally leave 20% or more.
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Dutch
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Dutch »

I go along with the whole charade and usually tip 15% of total, unless service is really bad.

But, I would rather tip the kitchen staff for cooking a good meal. Never understood what's so special about the people who walk the food over to your table, that they deserve to be tipped for it.
Last edited by Dutch on Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sk.dolcevita
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by sk.dolcevita »

surfstar wrote:Luckily we don't go out to eat much.

...I also usually order water, but tip as if I'd ordered a drink...
So now we are to be subjected to social shaming for drinking water and not some sugary or alcoholic beverage with a meal? Where does this end? If I order a cheap entree, should I tip assuming I should have ordered the most expensive one?

I think the tippers are tipping over!
toto238
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 »

Dutch wrote:I would rather tip the kitchen staff for cooking a good meal. Never understood what's so special about the people who walk the food over to your table, that they deserve to be tipped for it.
They're taking your order, entering your order, staging your order, making sure the order is correct after it's made, bringing your food, making sure everything is to your liking, bringing you any condiments, refills, napkins, etc. required. Then they're the ones creating your receipt and often times processing that request for you. There's a lot that goes into it. And they're doing this for sometimes 10 or more tables at once. "bringing your food" is a small part of the job. In fact at many restaurants the "food runner" is a completely separate job from waiter.
jschmitz28
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jschmitz28 »

climber2020 wrote:
schmitz wrote:I figure this thread is a good place for my tipping question (rather than start a new one):

My wife and I go out to eat often and we tip (what I think is) well...minimum of 20%. Sometimes 25% or 30%.

My question is since we do this, is morally ok to drop our tipping rate in the future when we are retired to say 10-15%? Is that being fair and does it all even out in the end? Tipping more now (since income is higher) to be able to tip lower later on?
If it were me, I would go out to eat less often and still leave a good tip. Like the last guy said... if you can't afford a proper tip, you can't afford to go out to eat.
If you can't afford to pay your employees, you can't afford to run a business.
frugalfraggle
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by frugalfraggle »

Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
Robert44
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Robert44 »

I tip 20% of bill, even tax.

if it is a place we go each week, i tip 25%, and get great service and occasionally free drinks, being a regular, good tipping customer.

I enjoy tipping for good service. THese servers work for hardly nothing.

We have a couple other fine restaurants we may go to monthly. Mostly with men servers. (we like Italian). These guys make a very good living on tips.

A friend of our sons was let go from a very good job because of downsizing a few years ago. He went back to the restaurant that he worked at to pay his way through college.
Bartends one night a week and waits the rest of the week. Does very well. And the fact everyone knows him, doesn't hurt.
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JonnyDVM
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by JonnyDVM »

PStrider wrote:I'm one of those who fail to see logic in tipping.

1. They're already making minimum wage (MW). Why are we tipping them and not ALL other MW individuals in other professions who are also struggling to make ends meet? How is that fair?

They are not making minimum wage. They are making $2/hr and by providing good service they hope to make more than a guaranteed minimum wage. Minimum wage is too low.

2. These tipped individuals probably make more than what the tippers make in some cases. Heck, some of them even brag about it for all to see.

What? That's absurd. Yes I'm sure your server at Denny's is really slaying it. Probably posting about paying the AMT on this forum

3. All we're doing is safe-guarding ourselves against them tampering with our food and giving us poor services on purpose, which they're not supposed to be doing in the first place.

What? No we're tipping them for service which is how it is done in the United states because their wage is dependent on our tips

4. Tipping, in my opinion, is paying extra for fake smiles and to stroke our egos/morals + don't get ridiculed by others who tip for being a 'cheapskate' because our lives would be miserable if some random people call us that.

Sounds like they would be calling someone what they are

5. Percentage tipping - Why should you give less tip just because your bill was lower than other tables even though your kids made a huge mess everywhere compared to other tables with no mess?

I would clean up a mess my kid made or leave more. You know, like most decent people would.

6. Take out tipping - Seriously? Why only them and not all other cashiers in other industries as well?

Food service workers are are paid differently then the cashier at Banana Republic. You have no obligation to tip them but I'll throw them a buck or two

Other countries have no tipping policy, and they seem to be doing just fine.

I don't live in France, I live in the United States. Our servers aren't guranteed a living wage

Countless of children are also staving to death all over the world. I'm sure these servers will be all right without you feeling sorry for them.

WTF does that have to do with anything?

I even discussed about this with a my dad WHILE we were out eating. I said I'll get the bill and will leave $0 tip (I normally tip flat rate up to $10 in a typical restaurant). I even show the bill to him before we got up and leave. The ride back home was as silent as it can be. He obviously did not approve my action but could not counter my argument and simply brushing it off as 'it's the right thing to do'.

I've talked to family members, friends, co-workers and they all said the same thing despite me explaining all the facts and logic. 'It's the right thing to do' or 'I'll 'feel bad if I don't leave any tip' or 'they'll judge me and remember who I was if I go back there again'. Sounds to me like they've been brainwashed and feel threatened or blindly following a tradition (the mass) without thinking for themselves like sheep.

Funny how being so counter culture saves you money while making others feel bad
--

I'd rather not deal with all of this 'variable treatments' and just go out to eat, get the service I'm supposed to be getting, eat my food, pay the bills and go home. Rinse and repeat everything went well.

I'm fine with raising food prices to compensate for matching minimum wage. I'll just let 'supply and demand' take its course like everything else in all other industries.

You'd be screaming bloody murder if the cost to go out to eat abruptly went up 20% because of new legislation. I guarantee you there would be many locked posts on this forum about how it was going to affect already dicey 2% safe withdrawal rates

As for servers themselves, they could protest or find other jobs with higher pay just like everybody else. I don't see why it's anyone's obligation to cater to these people and not others. It's not like someone is putting a gun to their heads to make them work as servers.

My very first job (10+ years ago) was waiting tables. My mom was also a waitress back then, and we were struggling to pay bills every month (hence why I started working at 16). We'd compare our tip $ with everyone and name calling bad tippers and praising good tippers every single day.

So, I've been through all of this. It's very toxic and unproductive to say the least.

If you think I'm a lost lamb, please do share your thoughts and straighten me out. I'm all ears.
My wife and I both have experience in food service. It's tough work. I tip 20%ish, 15% if you really do a bad job, 10% for bottom 10%, change on the table once in my life. If you don't want to tip, I would recommend just staying home.
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schmitz
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by schmitz »

jschmitz28 wrote:
climber2020 wrote:
schmitz wrote:I figure this thread is a good place for my tipping question (rather than start a new one):

My wife and I go out to eat often and we tip (what I think is) well...minimum of 20%. Sometimes 25% or 30%.

My question is since we do this, is morally ok to drop our tipping rate in the future when we are retired to say 10-15%? Is that being fair and does it all even out in the end? Tipping more now (since income is higher) to be able to tip lower later on?
If it were me, I would go out to eat less often and still leave a good tip. Like the last guy said... if you can't afford a proper tip, you can't afford to go out to eat.
If you can't afford to pay your employees, you can't afford to run a business.
whoa...did I just reply to myself? trippy. :shock:
PStrider
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by PStrider »

My replies are in italics under the bolds.
JonnyDVM wrote:
PStrider wrote:I'm one of those who fail to see logic in tipping.

1. They're already making minimum wage (MW). Why are we tipping them and not ALL other MW individuals in other professions who are also struggling to make ends meet? How is that fair?

They are not making minimum wage. They are making $2/hr and by providing good service they hope to make more than a guaranteed minimum wage. Minimum wage is too low.

Yep, they are making minimum wage (see link) PLUS any tips that exceeded MW PLUS no tax if it's cash (granted if they excluded it when filing, which should pretty much be everyone).

So, Why are we giving more money to these people and other MW workers? A fast food employee has to deal with double/triple amount of people everyday while each server only deal with 20-40 tables on average.

I'll link this anyway just for the record: http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm


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2. These tipped individuals probably make more than what the tippers make in some cases. Heck, some of them even brag about it for all to see.

What? That's absurd. Yes I'm sure your server at Denny's is really slaying it. Probably posting about paying the AMT on this forum

https://infogr.am/what_us_servers_typic ... n_per_hour
http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/r ... ce-workers


$11.60 - $21.50 per hour on average for servers (wage + tips)
$26.50 for bartenders
I believe the sample size is 15,000

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3. All we're doing is safe-guarding ourselves against them tampering with our food and giving us poor services on purpose, which they're not supposed to be doing in the first place.

What? No we're tipping them for service which is how it is done in the United states because their wage is dependent on our tips

Again, they'er already guaranteed minimum wage. Tipping will allow them to go over that. Why are they getting this special treatment automatically for just doing their job when other MW jobs don't?

4. Tipping, in my opinion, is paying extra for fake smiles and to stroke our egos/morals + don't get ridiculed by others who tip for being a 'cheapskate' because our lives would be miserable if some random people call us that.

Sounds like they would be calling someone what they are

Getting called a cheapskate and public shaming for not tipping by the mass can be a devastating if you don't have a mind of your own to stand by a sound logic of your own to eventually succumb to join the mass.

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5. Percentage tipping - Why should you give less tip just because your bill was lower than other tables even though your kids made a huge mess everywhere compared to other tables with no mess?

I would clean up a mess my kid made or leave more. You know, like most decent people would.

You're missing the point. Why tip more for a $30 steak vs. a $5 burger? Same amount of work.
Though I would love to see a customer asking for a broom and a mop to clean up their own mess.


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6. Take out tipping - Seriously? Why only them and not all other cashiers in other industries as well?

Food service workers are are paid differently then the cashier at Banana Republic. You have no obligation to tip them but I'll throw them a buck or two

Again, they do the exact same thing, which is bag your food/items. We're strictly talking other minimum waged cashiers though, not one of those retail stores.

---

Other countries have no tipping policy, and they seem to be doing just fine.

I don't live in France, I live in the United States. Our servers aren't guranteed a living wage


What about other MW workers? They make the same MW as servers but don't get tipped. Why don't you tip them too?

---

Countless of children are also staving to death all over the world. I'm sure these servers will be all right without you feeling sorry for them.

WTF does that have to do with anything?

You're feeling sorry for these servers, who have much better lives then those starving to death, but you feel the need to tip these people instead of donating to where it really matters.

---

I even discussed about this with a my dad WHILE we were out eating. I said I'll get the bill and will leave $0 tip (I normally tip flat rate up to $10 in a typical restaurant). I even show the bill to him before we got up and leave. The ride back home was as silent as it can be. He obviously did not approve my action but could not counter my argument and simply brushing it off as 'it's the right thing to do'.

I've talked to family members, friends, co-workers and they all said the same thing despite me explaining all the facts and logic. 'It's the right thing to do' or 'I'll 'feel bad if I don't leave any tip' or 'they'll judge me and remember who I was if I go back there again'. Sounds to me like they've been brainwashed and feel threatened or blindly following a tradition (the mass) without thinking for themselves like sheep.

Funny how being so counter culture saves you money while making others feel bad

It would really be funny if this culture makes any sense in the first place.

--

I'd rather not deal with all of this 'variable treatments' and just go out to eat, get the service I'm supposed to be getting, eat my food, pay the bills and go home. Rinse and repeat everything went well.

I'm fine with raising food prices to compensate for matching minimum wage. I'll just let 'supply and demand' take its course like everything else in all other industries.

You'd be screaming bloody murder if the cost to go out to eat abruptly went up 20% because of new legislation. I guarantee you there would be many locked posts on this forum about how it was going to affect already dicey 2% safe withdrawal rates

You'll be spending the same money regardless. Raising minimum wage would hurt these workers you're feeling sorry for even more, but that's another topic.

---

As for servers themselves, they could protest or find other jobs with higher pay just like everybody else. I don't see why it's anyone's obligation to cater to these people and not others. It's not like someone is putting a gun to their heads to make them work as servers.

My very first job (10+ years ago) was waiting tables. My mom was also a waitress back then, and we were struggling to pay bills every month (hence why I started working at 16). We'd compare our tip $ with everyone and name calling bad tippers and praising good tippers every single day.

So, I've been through all of this. It's very toxic and unproductive to say the least.

If you think I'm a lost lamb, please do share your thoughts and straighten me out. I'm all ears.
My wife and I both have experience in food service. It's tough work. I tip 20%ish, 15% if you really do a bad job, 10% for bottom 10%, change on the table once in my life. If you don't want to tip, I would recommend just staying home.
I appreciate the comment by the way. I did expect the post to be brushed off without anyone making any rebuttal like everyone I've talked to.
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Random Musings
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Random Musings »

frugalfraggle wrote:Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
I tip 15% pre-tax as the base (taking into considerations any coupons or such). I do round, so more likely 16-17% as the base amount if I really think about it.

With those who tip relatively well regardless of service, I just don't get it. It's not an entitlement.

RM
I figure the odds be fifty-fifty I just might have something to say. FZ
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Dutch
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Dutch »

kenyan wrote:Servers do get at least minimum wage in my state (California), so I would be fine with leaving no tip if it were warranted.
I agree. As a job, this is a job that deserves to be paid minimum wage. No more, no less.
toto238
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 »

Random Musings wrote:
frugalfraggle wrote:Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
I tip 15% pre-tax as the base (taking into considerations any coupons or such). I do round, so more likely 16-17% as the base amount if I really think about it.

With those who tip relatively well regardless of service, I just don't get it. It's not an entitlement.

RM
I believe every human being I interact with is entitled to be treated like a human being.

People use "entitlement" like a dirty word. I don't understand that. It simply means that you deserve something. People deserve to be treated like people. People deserve dignity. People deserve decency. When politicians refer to "entitlement spending" they're referring to things like Social Security where someone is entitled to the benefits they paid for. People should get what they're entitled to.

When I'm entering a restaurant, I'm entering someone else's place of work. I'm going to respect them as a person.
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tdirgins
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tdirgins »

The people wishing for tipping to "go away" should take a trip to France for a meal, where tipping is not encouraged except for sucker tourists. Be careful what you wish for. The service there is abyssmal.
Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes...waiting tables is hard work.
Gropes & Ray
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray »

tdirgins wrote:The people wishing for tipping to "go away" should take a trip to France for a meal, where tipping is not encouraged except for sucker tourists. Be careful what you wish for. The service there is abyssmal.
I would say that is why tipping persists. Consider the quality of your typical consumer interaction, and then the quality of your interaction with a waiter. Waiters put a lot more effort into being helpful, cheerful and friendly. I don't mind tipping them.
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FelixTheCat
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by FelixTheCat »

I used to work in a multi-cultural job. A lot of people didn't understand American tipping. In most countries excellent service is expected. For the rare times the server has far exceeded expectations, a 5% tip is given. Paying the server's wages is the employers job. In USA, I feel guilty that the employer pays the server next to nothing. So I automatically tip to help out.

Personally, I would prefer the employer pay a good wage. Until that time, I usually give 20% because it's an easy number to calculate in my head.
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.
flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison »

tdirgins wrote:The people wishing for tipping to "go away" should take a trip to France for a meal, where tipping is not encouraged except for sucker tourists. Be careful what you wish for. The service there is abyssmal.
Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes...waiting tables is hard work.
No one is suggesting that servers shouldn't be paid, but they should be paid by their employers like everyone else.

If you think that the quality of service depends on servers being tipped, then why doesn't that hold true for every other job? Wouldn't doctors, lawyers, retail clerks, cops, carpenters, and janitors all provide much better service if they relied on tips? How do any of them manage to perform their jobs satisfactorily if they aren't being tipped?
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Random Musings
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Random Musings »

toto238 wrote:
Random Musings wrote:
frugalfraggle wrote:Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
I tip 15% pre-tax as the base (taking into considerations any coupons or such). I do round, so more likely 16-17% as the base amount if I really think about it.

With those who tip relatively well regardless of service, I just don't get it. It's not an entitlement.

RM
I believe every human being I interact with is entitled to be treated like a human being.

People use "entitlement" like a dirty word. I don't understand that. It simply means that you deserve something. People deserve to be treated like people. People deserve dignity. People deserve decency. When politicians refer to "entitlement spending" they're referring to things like Social Security where someone is entitled to the benefits they paid for. People should get what they're entitled to.

When I'm entering a restaurant, I'm entering someone else's place of work. I'm going to respect them as a person.
Having worked in the restaurant business for almost four years in my youth, I am quite aware of what employees in that business have to endure. Being on your feet all day. Hot summers in the kitchen. Dealing with grumpy customers. Scraping dirty dishes. Taking the trash out to the back dumpsters, where large rats sometimes reside. So I do treat employees with respect. For the few times that servers have not done their job (at all, as one example disappearing twice for long periods of time), it is perfectly within reason not to tip. Otherwise, I tip on the basis I mentioned before. You could suggest that I tell the manager, but on a per hour basis, customers pay servers more than the restaurants do in the tipped-base environment.

And when it comes to entitlement, let us not forget the other side of the financial spectrum where the entitlements are far more lucrative than those people who deserve dignity and decency. That's my problem with entitlements.

Regards,

RM
I figure the odds be fifty-fifty I just might have something to say. FZ
toto238
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by toto238 »

flyingbison wrote:
tdirgins wrote:The people wishing for tipping to "go away" should take a trip to France for a meal, where tipping is not encouraged except for sucker tourists. Be careful what you wish for. The service there is abyssmal.
Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes...waiting tables is hard work.
No one is suggesting that servers shouldn't be paid, but they should be paid by their employers like everyone else.

If you think that the quality of service depends on servers being tipped, then why doesn't that hold true for every other job? Wouldn't doctors, lawyers, retail clerks, cops, carpenters, and janitors all provide much better service if they relied on tips? How do any of them manage to perform their jobs satisfactorily if they aren't being tipped?
Exactly. Agree with this 100%.
Johno
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Johno »

Again IMHO tends to descend to 'social justice' twaddle. The whole 'give dignity and respect' thing does not to me give any indication whether people who tip 15% should really tip 20%, or even how or if *quantitatively* people should vary tips based on service. And while it's also an enjoyable feeling I'm sure to be way up on the high horse of 'respecting people', I haven't actually seen any posts where anyone has suggested not respecting people. The implicit judgement is that not paying somebody a given amount of money is 'not respecting them'. IMHO this is a basically political not ethical concept, though whatever selective censorship of political pre-conceptions routinely occurs on this forum, people are entitled to their political preconceptions either way.

But to repeat my position, I 'go along with the charade' (that was a good comment by somebody else) of fixed relatively high % tip, with relatively little variation. I don't think it makes me the great humanitarian or social justice crusader. Mainly it's just a trivial amount of money to me. But by entitlement I just mean the general condition of society (who knows maybe always has been) of low correlation between people's effort and what they think they deserve, aka sense of entitlement. Waiters who do a good job expect a good tip. Waiters who do a crap job expect a good tip. 'Hard workin' single parents tryin' to be a puttin' food on the table' expect a good tip. 'Trust fund hipsters dabbling in waiting tables' in trendy neighborhoods expect a good tip. Project whatever story you want onto this person you don't know at all: One thing you can be reasonably sure of is that they think you're a **** if you don't give them a good tip. :D
spectec
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by spectec »

frugalfraggle wrote:Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
Pre-discount (if using coupons) and post-tax is my way of doing it.
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. - Will Rogers
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William Million
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by William Million »

Honestly, these many debates on tipping never go anywhere. Some posters are self-righteous about tipping, others about not tipping.

Morality aside, tipping 20% pre-tax, post-discount for decent service is now the societal norm. We should either accept it, or not eat out at restaurants requiring table service. This is not because tipping is a good idea or a bad idea (I personally think it's a bad idea), but because that's how the system works.
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bru
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by bru »

I used to always round up to an even amount. Generally close to or slightly exceeding 20%. Now I usually do 20%. Pre-tax and always on a credit card. I can be quite intolerant of bad service but I never recall leaving nothing. Better to tell the manager/owner about the issue.

We don't eat out very often and I think having to leave a tip is one of the reasons. Restaurant prices where we live are quite high (even the local coffee shop type of place) and when the tip is added the price of the meal is quite steep and it irks me a bit. So much more bang for your buck cooking at home. But don't think I'm a total Grinch, we average eating out one or two times a month which seems perfectly reasonable.
oxothuk
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by oxothuk »

I have a double standard on tipping.

For restaurants that I am likely to visit again, I will leave 20% of the pre-tax pre-discount tab, rounding the total tab up to the next dollar. This is just self protection. If the service is exceptional I may leave a few dollars extra in cash besides the tip I put on the card.

For restaurants that I am not likely to visit again (out of town,say) I will base my tip on merit. 20% is my norm, but I will raise that up to 25% or down to 10% based on the service received. I always leave something so that they don't misinterpet "no tip" as an oversight.

Like many of the commenters above I think American tipping is a stupid system. It seems designed primarily to let generous tippers feel morally superior to others. If in the future I come across restaurants that eschew the tipping system then I will give such establishments a strong preference. For now I seem to be stuck with the system as it is.
tj
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by tj »

What do you guys do at Chinese Steam Table places? it's borderline fast food - but they receipts always seem to have spots for tips. I do not tip at those places, just like I do not tip for take out.....
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jidina80
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jidina80 »

In Fiji we have no tipping whatsoever, and it's great. Tax (VAT) is included in all prices, too, so the price one sees on a menu or shop shelf is actually what one pays going out the door. If you want good service here, treat the service provider with respect and perhaps a little humor.

Some fancy hotels have a 'Christmas Fund' jar at the bar for donations because some foreigners have a hard time grasping the not tipping, but that not the real Fiji.
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jidina80
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by jidina80 »

Found this related article on the web:
http://www.attn.com/stories/1041/to-tip-or-not-tip

Excerpt:
"as it turns out, people don't tip based on service, anyway. Cornell professor Michael Lynn told the Daily Dot that "female servers make more than men do, blondes earn more than brunettes, and well-endowed women out-earn their more modestly sized counterparts." Over at Slate, Brian Palmer mentioned a survey that said a waiter’s job performance “only accounts for between 1 and 5 percent of the variation in tips at a restaurant.”

Another:
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/ ... rants.html
"Tipping does not incentivize hard work. The factors that correlate most strongly to tip size have virtually nothing to do with the quality of service. Credit card tips are larger than cash tips. Large parties with sizable bills leave disproportionately small tips. We tip servers more if they tell us their names, touch us on the arm, or draw smiley faces on our checks. Quality of service has a laughably small impact on tip size."

Hard to justify tips if the above is true.
Gropes & Ray
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by Gropes & Ray »

flyingbison wrote:If you think that the quality of service depends on servers being tipped, then why doesn't that hold true for every other job? Wouldn't doctors, lawyers, retail clerks, cops, carpenters, and janitors all provide much better service if they relied on tips? How do any of them manage to perform their jobs satisfactorily if they aren't being tipped?
It does hold true for every other job. Lawyers, Doctors and carpenters depend on your referrals and return business, and they aren't minimum wage employees. Retail clerks, janitors and cops don't tend to go out of their way to provide excellent service. Some may be cheerful people, but if you compare the percentage of friendly cheerful waiters to the percentage of cheerful friendly janitors, you're going to notice a significant discrepancy. Waiting tables is a tough job where people treat you like crap. If it weren't for tipping, I highly doubt most waiters would put much effort into making you happy. Do you typically find that people making $7.25/hr are putting in extra effort?
flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison »

Gropes & Ray wrote:
flyingbison wrote:If you think that the quality of service depends on servers being tipped, then why doesn't that hold true for every other job? Wouldn't doctors, lawyers, retail clerks, cops, carpenters, and janitors all provide much better service if they relied on tips? How do any of them manage to perform their jobs satisfactorily if they aren't being tipped?
It does hold true for every other job. Lawyers, Doctors and carpenters depend on your referrals and return business, and they aren't minimum wage employees. Retail clerks, janitors and cops don't tend to go out of their way to provide excellent service. Some may be cheerful people, but if you compare the percentage of friendly cheerful waiters to the percentage of cheerful friendly janitors, you're going to notice a significant discrepancy. Waiting tables is a tough job where people treat you like crap. If it weren't for tipping, I highly doubt most waiters would put much effort into making you happy. Do you typically find that people making $7.25/hr are putting in extra effort?
Referrals are not at all like tips. Regardless, I have had both excellent and terrible service from all types of workers - tipped and not-tipped, high paid and low paid. If tipping is expected as a norm (and clearly it is in the US), then it provides no greater incentive than the wages that other workers receive. I have never worked in job where I receive tips. Somehow, though, I manage to provide effective services to my clients.
scrabbler1
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by scrabbler1 »

frugalfraggle wrote:Do you all calculate your percent tip pre-tax or post-tax?
Pre-tax and pre-discounts. At a restaurant I frequent, they have "suggested" tip amounts based on percentages of the pre-tax part of the check. So if the restaurant believes the pre-tax amount is the appropriate starting place to determine the tip, why should I argue?

Pre-discount is also implied because at this place many frequent customers (including me) have a electronic card which sometimes has discounts placed on it for various reasons. We pay at the register so any discount is applied after we finish eating. Yes, we diners often know if there are discounts awaiting us but they are not known to the waiter when he produces the check.

But here is something which made me wonder what the appropriate tip should be: Two different but similar popular restaurants show their discounted meals a little differently on their receipts. At Applebees, for example, their "2 for $20" meal shows $20 as the total for the two meals. But TGIFriday's (not sure if they have these discounted meals any more) had a "2 for $25" combo and they showed the cost of each entrée at its original price then showed its separate discount by item. I tipped based on the pre-discounted price although it was a minor nuisance to add back the discount on each item.
flyingbison
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Re: Restaurant tipping

Post by flyingbison »

William Million wrote:
Morality aside, tipping 20% pre-tax, post-discount for decent service is now the societal norm. We should either accept it, or not eat out at restaurants requiring table service. This is not because tipping is a good idea or a bad idea (I personally think it's a bad idea), but because that's how the system works.
I don't think there is agreement that 20% is a societal norm. Even if it is, there are many societal norms that should be ignored or resisted, in my opinion. Some people are going to tip more than that, some less, and some not at all. In the end, the servers are making at least minimum wage, and usually a lot more.
hudson
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August 2013 Discussion: TIPPING

Post by hudson »

Tipping
Postby 3wood » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:45 pm
"How many 'big' tippers out there? I was just thinking about my day today and realized I gave away $40 today. It was a day off and I happened to eat out for breakfast and lunch AND my son got a hair cut AND the poolguy worked on my pool for an hour. Each time I tipped healthily. I think it goes back to my days of working for tips. Granted this was not a typical day but I started to wonder how much I actually spend in a year on tips."

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