Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
- RooseveltG
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Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
When does the cost of replacing working lights with LED lighting make sense? I have used them in our high traffic areas (kitchen, hallway, master bathroom) but not in all locations.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Roosevelt.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Roosevelt.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Since you have used LED lighting and probably most people have not, perhaps you are a very knowledgeable person on the subject. So can I ask you: Was it worth it to upgrade to LED lighting? What were the benefits that you found? What were the drawbacks? Did your electricity bills go down by more than 5%? Did your heating bills go up in the winter and your cooling bills down in the summer? Is the light spectrum better for you and your eyes? What do other people in your household say about the LED lights that you have?
I have used LED lights at work (they are great with microscopes and flashlights). I would not pay to replace my incandescent lights in my home since I rarely use lighting at home at all and my electricity bills are quite low.
I have used LED lights at work (they are great with microscopes and flashlights). I would not pay to replace my incandescent lights in my home since I rarely use lighting at home at all and my electricity bills are quite low.
- RooseveltG
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I have only a few weeks of experience with LEDs so I cannot assess the reduction in my electric bills yet.
Our kitchen is on the brown side and the LEDs seem warmer there than in other locations. I placed a 50 Watt equivalent LED in my study and at first the lighting seemed harsh. I am now used to it and like the brighter lighting.
LEDs are going to get warmer in lighting color but the bottom line is that you will probably adapt fairly quickly.
Roosevelt.
Our kitchen is on the brown side and the LEDs seem warmer there than in other locations. I placed a 50 Watt equivalent LED in my study and at first the lighting seemed harsh. I am now used to it and like the brighter lighting.
LEDs are going to get warmer in lighting color but the bottom line is that you will probably adapt fairly quickly.
Roosevelt.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
From incandescent to CFL on the basis of cost the call is easy.
Even in low use areas they have paid for themselves fairly
quickly.
Originally CFLs were bulky and sometimes a 60w equiv CFL
would not fit where a 60 w incandescent would, now with
mini twists, I can fit 75w equiv in and sometimes even 100s
Our house is dark inside so the extra lumens are useful.
LEDs are now at about where CFLs were when I started buying CFLs,
still very bulky.
If you have CFLs already , I would wait in the low use areas until
the bulb dies. Hopefully, in the near future, LEDs will come down in price.
Even in low use areas they have paid for themselves fairly
quickly.
Originally CFLs were bulky and sometimes a 60w equiv CFL
would not fit where a 60 w incandescent would, now with
mini twists, I can fit 75w equiv in and sometimes even 100s
Our house is dark inside so the extra lumens are useful.
LEDs are now at about where CFLs were when I started buying CFLs,
still very bulky.
If you have CFLs already , I would wait in the low use areas until
the bulb dies. Hopefully, in the near future, LEDs will come down in price.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
They're great for my outdoor lights that are on from dusk to dawn. No longer have to bring out the ladder every few months to replace them.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Along with the idea of replacing the bulbs, what does it mean/warn against when I read on the proposed socket, "60W Max" ?
If I were to put a 100W in there, would it explode ?
If I were to put a 100W in there, would it explode ?
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
- pennstater2005
- Posts: 2509
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:50 pm
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
One thing to consider is the Kelvin scale which is how bluish or yellowish your light will be. I bought my first LED recently and took it back because it was too white. I liked the incandescent color which is 2700 Kelvin. Truth be told I still prefer incandescent lighting and have two large bins stocked with incandescent bulbs of all watts.
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
No. The actual power draw of CFLs and LEDs is far lower than incandescents. That's where the cost savings comes in. A "100W" LED is roughly equivalent in brightness to a 100W incandescent, but it will only draw maybe 15W. So really you can replace "dim" 60 W bulbs with "bright" 150W equivalent LEDs and still lower your electricity usage and not overload the socket or circuit.Hexdump wrote:Along with the idea of replacing the bulbs, what does it mean/warn against when I read on the proposed socket, "60W Max" ?
If I were to put a 100W in there, would it explode ?
I've switched most of my lights to LEDs, but I can't produce the data showing cost savings. I have a mix of LEDs, CFLs, and incandescents. Depends on how often I use that area of the house. The one thing I don't like about CFLs is the warm up time. When a bulb goes, it gets replaced with a LED, but not for cost reasons. I prefer the bright white to bluish side of the color spectrum over the yellow/orange side.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I'm not where I can access it right now, but just a month or so back, I built a spreadsheet to figure this out. Bottom line, 100w equivalent pigtails and LEDs both pay for themselves vs. incandescents in about 18 months. But at current prices, you'll never get your money back on an LED vs a pigtail.
But money is not the only consideration.
But money is not the only consideration.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
LEDs are in the stage of development where they are still getting cheaper and better. It's not the right time for a whole-house replacement program.
If you are OK with the color and characteristics of CFL they presently have a better economic case.
If you are OK with the color and characteristics of CFL they presently have a better economic case.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I have used these for years. I agree they are getting cheaper. While a high up front investment, you will save a ton over their life in energy cost, plus you don't have to constantly pull the ladder out to replace bulbs all the time like incandescents. Recommend you buy one or two as a test to be sure you like the light pattern and color before you buy a lot of them, we went through several brands before we decided what was best for us and then replaced whole house. There was a noticeable drop in our power bill.
- DonCamillo
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Costco is selling dual four foot LED replacements for overhead fluorescent tube lights for $32 a fixture right now. They produce a lot of light, (3700 Lumen) come on instantly, and use 18 watts of power. On the box, it is claimed that each one will save up to $275 in electricity and bulb replacement.
I have been replacing most of the lights in my house with different form factors of LED. These are now installed in basement and garage.
I have been replacing most of the lights in my house with different form factors of LED. These are now installed in basement and garage.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Given electric rates are highly variable and my total cost is dominated by A/C,
hard to tell the impact.
In general, I tend to replace technology only when older technology
is no longer functional. If you think of the cost of buying almost anything
other than immediate consumables like food, you need to consider the expected life
in determining the true cost. A $20k car is not cheap if you get bored and trade it
in six months. A $40k car can be a bargain if you use it for over a decade.
I replace bulbs as they die, used to be from incandescent to CFL,
now from incandescent/CFL to LED anywhere feasible.
Note in removing one CFL, it fell and broke, shattered and scattered.
Given it has mercury, my wife freaked out. I would not buy CFL again,
but I also leave them in place until I absolutely MUST remove them
hard to tell the impact.
In general, I tend to replace technology only when older technology
is no longer functional. If you think of the cost of buying almost anything
other than immediate consumables like food, you need to consider the expected life
in determining the true cost. A $20k car is not cheap if you get bored and trade it
in six months. A $40k car can be a bargain if you use it for over a decade.
I replace bulbs as they die, used to be from incandescent to CFL,
now from incandescent/CFL to LED anywhere feasible.
Note in removing one CFL, it fell and broke, shattered and scattered.
Given it has mercury, my wife freaked out. I would not buy CFL again,
but I also leave them in place until I absolutely MUST remove them
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Keep an eye on the actual efficiency of the lights you purchase (lumens per watt). The Cree bulbs I purchased were rated 800 lumens/9.5 watts. However, they're actually drawing only 8 watts (well somewhere between 7.5 and 8.5, my Kill-a-watt meter only measures to the nearest watt. The CF bulbs rated at 13w actually drew 14.)
There is a pretty wide spread in efficiency in LED lighting - it has been getting better pretty rapidly. Older technology LEDs may be LESS efficient than a good CF.
There is a pretty wide spread in efficiency in LED lighting - it has been getting better pretty rapidly. Older technology LEDs may be LESS efficient than a good CF.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (LED lighting).
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I started transitioning to LED lights two years ago.
I have a lot of dimmers and CFLs don't work with them while LEDs do.
Color temperature is another thing that's good to learn from experience.
I still have four CFLs on my garage ceiling which are slow to generate full light in cool temperatures as we have presently.
Oh, and I didn't worry about or check my electric bill at all during this transition...
I have a lot of dimmers and CFLs don't work with them while LEDs do.
Color temperature is another thing that's good to learn from experience.
I still have four CFLs on my garage ceiling which are slow to generate full light in cool temperatures as we have presently.
Oh, and I didn't worry about or check my electric bill at all during this transition...
Attempted new signature...
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
How many light bulbs do you have in your house? We probably have over 100
I replaced all the main incadescent bulbs with CFLs when we moved in 7 years ago. Haven't been totally happy with the CFLs for the usual reasons (they burn out, take a while to warm up, and can't be used with dimmers). Now I'm gradually swapping them out with LCDs. I buy a couple of packages of LCDs every so often at Costco (which has the best prices) and have been slowly swapping out the ones that get used the most. They are much nicer than the CFLs. Am I going to bother replacing the bulb in the guest room close that gets turned on maybe once every couple months? Not until it burns out.
In any event a very rough calculation is that you'll save about 50 watts per bulb going to LED which means you save a kilowatt-hour of electricity for every 20 hours of use. At an average price of about $0.10/kWh you will save about $1 for every 200 hours of burn time. You can do the math from there. A bulb that is used 4 hours/day in say the kitchen will save about $7/year. Something like a porch light that is on a timer like mine and burns 12 hours/day will save $22/year. A bulb in a guestroom closet that gets turned on 1 hour/month will save $0.06 per year.
You can adjust the math to your own exact circumstances by looking at the actual bulb wattage and your actual price of electricity but these numbers will probably get you into the ballpark. The typical LED replacement for a 60 watt ordinary bulb is a 9.5w LED which will save you 50.5w. The bigger bulbs give more savings. For example, the typical LED replacement for a 100w recessed ceiling BR40 bulb is a 17 watt LED which saves 83 watts.
I replaced all the main incadescent bulbs with CFLs when we moved in 7 years ago. Haven't been totally happy with the CFLs for the usual reasons (they burn out, take a while to warm up, and can't be used with dimmers). Now I'm gradually swapping them out with LCDs. I buy a couple of packages of LCDs every so often at Costco (which has the best prices) and have been slowly swapping out the ones that get used the most. They are much nicer than the CFLs. Am I going to bother replacing the bulb in the guest room close that gets turned on maybe once every couple months? Not until it burns out.
In any event a very rough calculation is that you'll save about 50 watts per bulb going to LED which means you save a kilowatt-hour of electricity for every 20 hours of use. At an average price of about $0.10/kWh you will save about $1 for every 200 hours of burn time. You can do the math from there. A bulb that is used 4 hours/day in say the kitchen will save about $7/year. Something like a porch light that is on a timer like mine and burns 12 hours/day will save $22/year. A bulb in a guestroom closet that gets turned on 1 hour/month will save $0.06 per year.
You can adjust the math to your own exact circumstances by looking at the actual bulb wattage and your actual price of electricity but these numbers will probably get you into the ballpark. The typical LED replacement for a 60 watt ordinary bulb is a 9.5w LED which will save you 50.5w. The bigger bulbs give more savings. For example, the typical LED replacement for a 100w recessed ceiling BR40 bulb is a 17 watt LED which saves 83 watts.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
We replaced virtually everything with LED's using the warm white CREE bulbs for the common bulb types and ones from Costco for the less common types like R20 recessed and globe.
Electricity use dropped dramatically (~30%). We use a lot of lighting in a 1950's rambling ranch style 2500SF home and we do not have AC - your % savings may vary.
This and adding the maximum recommended attic insulation were the two high-results quick pay-off things we have done to save energy and energy costs.
I hated the CFL's especially the enclosed bulb type due to the slow warmup lag so we had not done a big changeover to them at the time we went to LED's.
What we replaced was about 75% incandescent and 25% CFL. We donated them and took a deduction.
We have a couple lights with 3-way incandescent still, CREE now sells those in LED so I'll pick them up next time I get to Home Depot as these are used a lot.
Have a few repurposed open twist CFL bulbs (no lag) in places like closets, the attic and crawlspace where I don't see a payoff from LED's until they get dirt cheap.
Electricity use dropped dramatically (~30%). We use a lot of lighting in a 1950's rambling ranch style 2500SF home and we do not have AC - your % savings may vary.
This and adding the maximum recommended attic insulation were the two high-results quick pay-off things we have done to save energy and energy costs.
I hated the CFL's especially the enclosed bulb type due to the slow warmup lag so we had not done a big changeover to them at the time we went to LED's.
What we replaced was about 75% incandescent and 25% CFL. We donated them and took a deduction.
We have a couple lights with 3-way incandescent still, CREE now sells those in LED so I'll pick them up next time I get to Home Depot as these are used a lot.
Have a few repurposed open twist CFL bulbs (no lag) in places like closets, the attic and crawlspace where I don't see a payoff from LED's until they get dirt cheap.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
What if I only use a light for 10 minutes a day? The sites that do cost comparisons usually have the lights on at least 4 hours a day. At this moment, there are no lights on in my house since sunlight is working fine as far as I can tell.targ wrote:I'm not where I can access it right now, but just a month or so back, I built a spreadsheet to figure this out. Bottom line, 100w equivalent pigtails and LEDs both pay for themselves vs. incandescents in about 18 months.
It is very rare that we replace any bulbs in our home which has a mix of incandescent and fluorescent fixtures. Fluorescent tubes (not CFL) were the builder's choice in the kitchen more than 20 years ago; same in garage. We have never changed a light bulb in the living room nor the dining room nor attics in 20 years. I will probably die before some bulbs in the house burn out.
So, MnD, can I ask you a specific question, you state that electricity use has dropped ~30%. If our electricity dropped 30% last month, the bill would have been $15 less for our 3000+ sq ft McMansion, $12 less the month before, and $10 less the month before that. I cannot imagine that kind of savings based on the lights we don't use.
Last edited by livesoft on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Aptenodytes
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- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:39 pm
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I replace burned-out bulbs with LEDs. I hate the CFLs but I have quite a few in use and will let them run their lifespan.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I bought 3 LED 60W eq's on sale recently, just to try them out as CFL's burn out. I installed one so far, in a two bulb high ceiling bathroom overhead fixture. It seems brighter to me than the CFL still there, and the color tone is OK with me. I've had poor experience with the life on FEIT CFL's I've bought at Costco. They often lasted less than a year. I got warranty replacements a number of times but that's a pain; my time is worth something too. I switched to Home Depot's brand on CFL's and while too soon to say the average life (since none have burned out), seems better. So this is a question for me about LED v CFL, even assuming the LED prices come down more. How long do the two types actually last? What it says on the package for FEIT CFL's is nonsense, it's exceptional for one to last that long in normal use IME. The CFL's I use now might last a lot longer, and by the same token I don't know the real useful life of LED's.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
On bulbs 2700K gives the closest light to incandescent. You also want the highest CRI (Color Rendering Index) you can get.
On hours there are 8760 hours in a year. I figure most lightbulbs get used 500-600 hours a year (1-2 hours a day) but some get used closer to 2000. I swapped out those kitchen, bathroom, hall lightbulbs first. I was getting paybacks in less than 18 months.
Anything hard to replace (ladders etc.) I swapped out for LED. Have had one LED burn out, and hadn't kept the receipt-- damn. I also did not swap out the LEDs where the halogens are on a dimmer switch. When a CFL goes I always replace with an LED.
At c. 25 cents US per kwhr it paid me to simply swap out *perfectly good* incandescents and halogens for a USD 30 LED lightbulb (this was about 3 years ago). I built the Net Present Value model to prove it to myself.
My electricity bill dropped by about £10 pcm (about 64kwhr pcm or about 14/wk) and since I can't trace that to any other action (we bought more efficient appliances but we *added* to the total number of appliances) I have to conclude that was the LEDs (and CFLs where I had installed those).
On hours there are 8760 hours in a year. I figure most lightbulbs get used 500-600 hours a year (1-2 hours a day) but some get used closer to 2000. I swapped out those kitchen, bathroom, hall lightbulbs first. I was getting paybacks in less than 18 months.
Anything hard to replace (ladders etc.) I swapped out for LED. Have had one LED burn out, and hadn't kept the receipt-- damn. I also did not swap out the LEDs where the halogens are on a dimmer switch. When a CFL goes I always replace with an LED.
At c. 25 cents US per kwhr it paid me to simply swap out *perfectly good* incandescents and halogens for a USD 30 LED lightbulb (this was about 3 years ago). I built the Net Present Value model to prove it to myself.
My electricity bill dropped by about £10 pcm (about 64kwhr pcm or about 14/wk) and since I can't trace that to any other action (we bought more efficient appliances but we *added* to the total number of appliances) I have to conclude that was the LEDs (and CFLs where I had installed those).
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
At my electricity prices (c. 25 cents US/ kwhr) it paid to swap out *perfectly good* halogens and incandescents. I actually had to build a model to satisfy myself of this, but in no case did I have a payback of more than 3 years or so.blevine wrote:Given electric rates are highly variable and my total cost is dominated by A/C,
hard to tell the impact.
In general, I tend to replace technology only when older technology
is no longer functional. If you think of the cost of buying almost anything
other than immediate consumables like food, you need to consider the expected life
in determining the true cost. A $20k car is not cheap if you get bored and trade it
in six months. A $40k car can be a bargain if you use it for over a decade.
I replace bulbs as they die, used to be from incandescent to CFL,
now from incandescent/CFL to LED anywhere feasible.
If you use Air Conditioning, then the waste heat from halogens/ incandescents will be increasing your utility bill, generally. Of course in winter the converse is also true.
If you have time of day pricing, then it is possible that, for the lightbulbs you habitually have on at peak period, swapping out now is the best strategy (for incandescents or halogens). For CFLs it is best to wait til end of life.
Unless you have pets or small children, that amount of mercury is not a big risk-- you are going to tidy the stuff up, not inhale it. We used to chase balls of mercury around the lab table in high school chemistry.Note in removing one CFL, it fell and broke, shattered and scattered.
Given it has mercury, my wife freaked out. I would not buy CFL again,
but I also leave them in place until I absolutely MUST remove them
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
It takes several hundred CFL's to have the same mercury content as a baby thermometer!Unless you have pets or small children, that amount of mercury is not a big risk-- you are going to tidy the stuff up, not inhale it. We used to chase balls of mercury around the lab table in high school chemistry.
Contrary to the belief of many, profit is not a four letter word!
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
The math is simple. Much easier than calculating investment rates of return.livesoft wrote:What if I only use a light for 10 minutes a day? The sites that do cost comparisons usually have the lights on at least 4 hours a day. At this moment, there are no lights on in my house since sunlight is working fine as far as I can tell.targ wrote:I'm not where I can access it right now, but just a month or so back, I built a spreadsheet to figure this out. Bottom line, 100w equivalent pigtails and LEDs both pay for themselves vs. incandescents in about 18 months.
It is very rare that we replace any bulbs in our home which has a mix of incandescent and fluorescent fixtures. Fluorescent tubes (not CFL) were the builder's choice in the kitchen more than 20 years ago; same in garage. We have never changed a light bulb in the living room nor the dining room nor attics in 20 years. I will probably die before some bulbs in the house burn out.
So, MnD, can I ask you a specific question, you state that electricity use has dropped ~30%. If our electricity dropped 30% last month, the bill would have been $15 less for our 3000+ sq ft McMansion, $12 less the month before, and $10 less the month before that. I cannot imagine that kind of savings based on the lights we don't use.
Electricity is charged by the kilowatt-hour (kWh) which is equal to power consumption of 1000 watts for 1 hour or any combination of watts and hours that multiplied together equal 1000 such as 100 watts for 10 hours.
According to information I googled "Average residential rates by state ranged from 8.64 to 36.90 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh). The national average was 12.56 cents per kWh."
The LED replacement bulb for the average 60 watt incadescent burns 9.5 watts saving 50.5 watts or a kilowatt ( 1000 watts) in approximately 20 hours. If electricity costs 12.56 cents per kWh then the LED replacement for a standard 60 watt incandescent will save $1 for every 150 hours of burn time.
The LED replacement bulb for the average 100 watt incandescent burns 17 watts saving 83 watts or a kilowatt in approximately 12 hours. At the national average price of electricity the LED replacement for the typical 100 watt incandescent will save $1 for every 95 hours of burn time.
10 minutes per day comes out to 61 hours per year which would amount to a savings of 40 cents/year for a 60 watt replacement and 64 cents/year for a 100 watt replacement at the average price of electricity in the US.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Absolutely yes-- if you have incandescents
Probably yes- if you have CFLs
Also for all the "hard to reach" lights, best to have handyman (or yourself if you have equipment or ladder), replace with LEDs so you dont have to worry about them since LEDs have a 25 year+ estimated life span
CFLs are not as efficient as LEDs, have mercury, and flicker on turn-on after time. Also their housing material, at least in my personal experience, decays (so be careful when removing them!)
Cree, Philips, TCL all make excellent LEDs now for reasonable prices, and most will pay for themselves on electricity cost if you plan live there for a few years. Some of your utility companies will even give you rebate for buying them.
I made 3 changes that I feel drastically improved my energy bill: 1) change to variable speed pool pump (with optimized settings) 2) replace appliances and 3) change all lights to LED. Of the 3, changing lights to LED was the cheapest and easiest. Highly recommend!
Probably yes- if you have CFLs
Also for all the "hard to reach" lights, best to have handyman (or yourself if you have equipment or ladder), replace with LEDs so you dont have to worry about them since LEDs have a 25 year+ estimated life span
CFLs are not as efficient as LEDs, have mercury, and flicker on turn-on after time. Also their housing material, at least in my personal experience, decays (so be careful when removing them!)
Cree, Philips, TCL all make excellent LEDs now for reasonable prices, and most will pay for themselves on electricity cost if you plan live there for a few years. Some of your utility companies will even give you rebate for buying them.
I made 3 changes that I feel drastically improved my energy bill: 1) change to variable speed pool pump (with optimized settings) 2) replace appliances and 3) change all lights to LED. Of the 3, changing lights to LED was the cheapest and easiest. Highly recommend!
Last edited by Gleevec on Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I switched to CFLs early, and then switched to LEDs about 2 years ago.
IKEA discounts LED bulbs as part of their eco-friendly pass-through, so if you have one nearby, check them out for bulbs. I like their displays making it easy to select the Kelvin you need for various applications.
Now if I can just get DH to quit turning off all the bulbs when leaving a room for a few minutes, we'll get the maximum life out of these babies. Good habits die hard.
IKEA discounts LED bulbs as part of their eco-friendly pass-through, so if you have one nearby, check them out for bulbs. I like their displays making it easy to select the Kelvin you need for various applications.
Now if I can just get DH to quit turning off all the bulbs when leaving a room for a few minutes, we'll get the maximum life out of these babies. Good habits die hard.
The mightiest Oak is just a nut who stayed the course.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I haven't amortized out the 15yo CFLs. I got another 20 yrs left on the better CFLs.
Can't wait until we get wireless light options
Can't wait until we get wireless light options
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
We switched to CFL several years ago and have never liked the whiter light or lag time. Plus I'm not thrilled about the mercury in them after one broke. Lowes had LED on sale recently so I replaced the CFL with LED in areas where lighting is utilized most. We love the warmer and brighter light. It will be LED bulbs only here on out.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I've also noticed that many people don't differentiate between the cheaper LEDs out there verus that higher quality ones. So far, I've only bought LED bulbs that use either Cree or Philips LEDs. They are all 2700K and they all have a CRI > 90. We have about 25 recessed LED cans and maybe 8 Philips E26 base LED bulbs (these are the L-Prize winners that I got on clearance for $15/pop) and another 4 Cree E26 base from Home Depot.
We went to the recessed LEDs during a whole house remodel and haven't looked back. We frequently have 16 of the cans lit at the same time in our great room/kitchen and combined they use < 160W and the house doesn't get hotter like it would with regular incadescents. These didn't cost us much more over than the regular incandescent (initial purchase I mean) since most recessed LEDs have the trim built-in so we didn't have to purchase the trims. Of course, this would be different if were doing replacement over new construction.
Oh, and the proper way to judge a light's output is by lumens, not by wattage since obviously CFLs/LEDs are much more efficient. The "60W equivalent" type of statements on CFLs/LEDs don't mean much. Likewise, efficiency should be measured in lumens/watt.
We went to the recessed LEDs during a whole house remodel and haven't looked back. We frequently have 16 of the cans lit at the same time in our great room/kitchen and combined they use < 160W and the house doesn't get hotter like it would with regular incadescents. These didn't cost us much more over than the regular incandescent (initial purchase I mean) since most recessed LEDs have the trim built-in so we didn't have to purchase the trims. Of course, this would be different if were doing replacement over new construction.
Oh, and the proper way to judge a light's output is by lumens, not by wattage since obviously CFLs/LEDs are much more efficient. The "60W equivalent" type of statements on CFLs/LEDs don't mean much. Likewise, efficiency should be measured in lumens/watt.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I've replaced my outdoor (hard to reach) lights from incandescent bulbs to LEDs and love the fact I'm no longer getting out the ladder what seems like once a month in the winter on snow and ice to replace those old incandescent bulbs.
Yes, they cost more, but if the LEDs save me 1 slip and fall -- I'm money ahead.
Yes, they cost more, but if the LEDs save me 1 slip and fall -- I'm money ahead.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Here's a variant on texasdiver's approach:
The incandescent BR30 bulbs we replaced had a 2,000 hour average lifetime and they were relatively new.
The incandescent uses 65 watts; over its life time it'll use 130 kwh@12.56/kwh = $16.33
The LEDs we replaced them with use 8.5 watts; over the same 2,000 hour period, it'll use 17kwh@12.56/kwh = $2.14.
As long as the cost of the LED bulb is less than $14.19 - we paid about $9 - it's cheaper to take out the incandescents before they've burned out.
Note that in this calculation, there's no assumption about number of hours per day, just the life of the incandescent bulb. It doesn't matter whether I burn out the incandescent in one year or in 10 years. You might not want to replace incandescents that have been burning for a 1,000 hours or so, but it's a good bet for newer ones.
My calculation doesn't take into account that the LED lasts 10 times longer than the incandescent because there's a serious chance that some of the less often used bulbs will out last me and I want to calculate my savings, not the savings of future owners.
There's also another factor to consider if you live in Texas or anywhere where you run air conditioning 24/7. I made some additional assumptions about how many lights were on for how long and concluded that those 65 watt incandescents were contributing as much heat as running a space heater an hour a day. That might explain the unexpected drop in our electricity bill after I put in the LEDs.
The incandescent BR30 bulbs we replaced had a 2,000 hour average lifetime and they were relatively new.
The incandescent uses 65 watts; over its life time it'll use 130 kwh@12.56/kwh = $16.33
The LEDs we replaced them with use 8.5 watts; over the same 2,000 hour period, it'll use 17kwh@12.56/kwh = $2.14.
As long as the cost of the LED bulb is less than $14.19 - we paid about $9 - it's cheaper to take out the incandescents before they've burned out.
Note that in this calculation, there's no assumption about number of hours per day, just the life of the incandescent bulb. It doesn't matter whether I burn out the incandescent in one year or in 10 years. You might not want to replace incandescents that have been burning for a 1,000 hours or so, but it's a good bet for newer ones.
My calculation doesn't take into account that the LED lasts 10 times longer than the incandescent because there's a serious chance that some of the less often used bulbs will out last me and I want to calculate my savings, not the savings of future owners.
There's also another factor to consider if you live in Texas or anywhere where you run air conditioning 24/7. I made some additional assumptions about how many lights were on for how long and concluded that those 65 watt incandescents were contributing as much heat as running a space heater an hour a day. That might explain the unexpected drop in our electricity bill after I put in the LEDs.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I have ~30 recessed spots in my house that were normal (i.e., not LED) when I moved in. I swear the life on those things had to be 4 months.... I was literally making a trip to Home Depot every weekend to get replacements, get out the ladder, etc. Drove me crazy!
I finally started replacing with LEDs (which were about ~2x the cost of the regular, non-LEDs), and I haven't had a single one go out (and it has been 18 months since I put the first one in). I don't know how much of a difference it caused on electric bill, but it was definitely worth it from a hassle standpoint to me. As several other posters stated, make sure you get LEDs that are similar on the Kelvin scale to your other bulbs and then you won't notice a difference in the color of the light (at least, I didn't).
I finally started replacing with LEDs (which were about ~2x the cost of the regular, non-LEDs), and I haven't had a single one go out (and it has been 18 months since I put the first one in). I don't know how much of a difference it caused on electric bill, but it was definitely worth it from a hassle standpoint to me. As several other posters stated, make sure you get LEDs that are similar on the Kelvin scale to your other bulbs and then you won't notice a difference in the color of the light (at least, I didn't).
- Epsilon Delta
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
It's not like 2700K was chosen for incandescent lights as the optimum for human comfort. 2700K is simply as hot as you can get a tungsten filament without heroic efforts. Older incandescents used different materials and ran colder. If we wanted lower color temperature we could have had them, instead color temperatures were pushed as high as was technically possible*. A few quite expensive tungsten halides were sold as being superior because they had a higher color temperature.RooseveltG wrote: LEDs are going to get warmer in lighting color but the bottom line is that you will probably adapt fairly quickly.
So what I'd expect, after people get over the shock of something changing, is that the "standard" color temperature will increase to something closer to daylight (~5000K) and 2700K lamps will be specialty items.
* Although to be fair, for incandescents higher color temperature also means greater efficiency, so it's not just a matter of appearances.
- lthenderson
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Back when I had incandescents, I once counted over 40 light bulbs in the house. It seemed like once a week I was replacing a light bulb or two here or there. Since I've switched over to LED's, I couldn't tell you when the last time I changed a light bulb. At least a couple years or more. Just that minor inconvenience being gone is priceless to me. It also frees up a shelf in the utility room where I don't have to have a stockpile of lightbulbs.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
2010 article is a little outdated.
LED bulbs are no longer $20-$40
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
- pennstater2005
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Personal preference. Not so much the shock of changing but more so I feel as though I'm sitting at work with the brighter, whiter lighting. To me, the warmer color of 2700k is just that, warmer....more relaxing.Epsilon Delta wrote:It's not like 2700K was chosen for incandescent lights as the optimum for human comfort. 2700K is simply as hot as you can get a tungsten filament without heroic efforts. Older incandescents used different materials and ran colder. If we wanted lower color temperature we could have had them, instead color temperatures were pushed as high as was technically possible*. A few quite expensive tungsten halides were sold as being superior because they had a higher color temperature.RooseveltG wrote: LEDs are going to get warmer in lighting color but the bottom line is that you will probably adapt fairly quickly.
So what I'd expect, after people get over the shock of something changing, is that the "standard" color temperature will increase to something closer to daylight (~5000K) and 2700K lamps will be specialty items.
* Although to be fair, for incandescents higher color temperature also means greater efficiency, so it's not just a matter of appearances.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I have tons of LEDs in the house and they don't last any longer than regular in my house. I buy them when on sale.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
LED technology is still improving. CFL tech is probably nearing its end with improved phosphors and power supply converters. Incandescent technology has been obsolete for a century. AC technology within the home is probably close to obsolescence.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I don't have the spreadsheet in front of me, so the numbers I'm giving here are fuzzy. A friend created a spreadsheet to answer this question. Assuming electricity costs around $0.10/kWh, and ~$9 Cree bulbs, if you accept a payback period of 3-5 years, you should preemptively replace any incandescent bulbs that you run for more 2-4 hours/day. Anything else that you're happy with can be left alone until it burns out.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Really? In this discussion generally a lot of posts talk about 'regular' meaning incandescent, v LED. I haven't had any incandescent bulbs operating in years, except in the unfinished basement where avg use per day is a few minutes at most. I have some incandescents still in a storage closet; but the basement is only place I'd use them even if I end up throwing them away otherwise. The relevant issue for me is Compact Florescent, CFL, v Light Emitting Diode, LED. I can see saying that CFL's last little longer then incandescents. That's been my experience too at least with the Costco exclusive brand FEIT. But they are still a no brainer v incandescents, since the upfront cost is now almost the same at less than $2 each, and a 60w equiv CFL will burn maybe $8 less in electricity than an incandescent even over a disappointingly short 1000 hr life (I pay $0.17/Kwh for electricity in the northeast US). You're saying you've bought *LED* bulbs (I paid $15 each for 60W equivs not long ago, but they are supposed to last ~18-20yrs) and they burned out as a soon an incandescent? That's a big problem for LED's v CFL's if that's really what you meant.dhodson wrote:I have tons of LEDs in the house and they don't last any longer than regular in my house. I buy them when on sale.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I'm a little picky about light, so I have tried about half a dozen LEDs over the years (never CFLs -- can't stand the spectrum.) Most recently, I tried the Cree TrueWhite recessed retrofit (CRI reportedly 93). Easy retrofit (12 fixtures total) and the light quality is still a little cooler than the halogens, but tolerable after a little while getting used to it. Payback calculated out about 18 months (high power rates at top usage tier, plus a local energy efficiency rebate.)
After a couple of months, it appears effective; overall seeing about a 20% reduction in overall electric usage, which is about what I'd expected.
I figure that the technology will continue to improve, so I replaced the highest usage fixtures in the house -- in a few more years, when the gain in efficiency or CRI makes it make sense, I'll replace the same ones and move the current fixtures onward to lesser usage locations.
After a couple of months, it appears effective; overall seeing about a 20% reduction in overall electric usage, which is about what I'd expected.
I figure that the technology will continue to improve, so I replaced the highest usage fixtures in the house -- in a few more years, when the gain in efficiency or CRI makes it make sense, I'll replace the same ones and move the current fixtures onward to lesser usage locations.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I recently went to nearly 100% LEDs. I am in agreement with the general dislike of CFLs - slow warm up, fairly high failure rate.
I made the full switch to LEDs when I realized that I could purchase:
- Cree 60 Watt equivalent standard bulbs directly from the local utility for $4.00 apiece
- Feit BR30 spots from Costco (w/ a utility discount) for $6.00 apiece (in 4-packs)
- Feit BR40 spots from Costco (w/ a utility discount) for $7.50 apiece (in 4-packs)
If you are a Costco member, go to costco.com and search for "LED bulb", click on a Feit bulb and see if there is a link for a utility discount. If so then click it, enter your zip code and see what discounts are available. I have no idea how widespread the discounts are in the US. These discounts are not available in the local Costco store and so the bulbs are considerably more expensive there. Even after paying shipping, the online discount is worthwhile. There are also great discounts on CFL bulbs if you happen to be in the market.
All the bulbs are dimmable. The Crees are instant on and the Feits there is a half-a-beat pause before they come on. But you quickly get used to it.
Very happy with the new lights.
I made the full switch to LEDs when I realized that I could purchase:
- Cree 60 Watt equivalent standard bulbs directly from the local utility for $4.00 apiece
- Feit BR30 spots from Costco (w/ a utility discount) for $6.00 apiece (in 4-packs)
- Feit BR40 spots from Costco (w/ a utility discount) for $7.50 apiece (in 4-packs)
If you are a Costco member, go to costco.com and search for "LED bulb", click on a Feit bulb and see if there is a link for a utility discount. If so then click it, enter your zip code and see what discounts are available. I have no idea how widespread the discounts are in the US. These discounts are not available in the local Costco store and so the bulbs are considerably more expensive there. Even after paying shipping, the online discount is worthwhile. There are also great discounts on CFL bulbs if you happen to be in the market.
All the bulbs are dimmable. The Crees are instant on and the Feits there is a half-a-beat pause before they come on. But you quickly get used to it.
Very happy with the new lights.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Some bulbs have a warranty 5-10 years. I've seen message boards where people take the burnt out LED with the receipt and box stating the warranty to home depot and they let you have a new one for free.dhodson wrote:I have tons of LEDs in the house and they don't last any longer than regular in my house. I buy them when on sale.
I have never done this, as I haven't had any LEDs stop working yet, but may be worth a try if the bulbs you're buying don't last and they have this warranty. If they don't, maybe you're buying low quality bulbs?
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
We remodeled a kitchen and bath last year and I used the opportunity to change all our house lighting to LED (skipped the CFL). The majority of the bulbs are Cree models and have been working fine both indoor and outdoor.knpstr wrote:Some bulbs have a warranty 5-10 years. I've seen message boards where people take the burnt out LED with the receipt and box stating the warranty to home depot and they let you have a new one for free.
I have never done this, as I haven't had any LEDs stop working yet, but may be worth a try if the bulbs you're buying don't last and they have this warranty. If they don't, maybe you're buying low quality bulbs?
I have had three replacements on standard sized single wattage LEDs that failed early, two Flood type PAR and one 100W. All were purchased at Home Depot and replaced with a receipt. My big issue was with the 3-Way Cree bulbs. I purchased these online at Home Depot and out of the 12, six have failed within 6 months, one at 2 weeks. I contacted Cree directly from their web site and they replaced all 6 items.
I think a 50% failure rate on the 3-Way is unacceptable. I have purchased a Phillips 3-Way and will give that a try.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Was just at Lowes at they had 60w equivalent LED bulbs for 99 cents each. The floods are below $5 each.
Doesn't require much thinking now, just do it with regard to bulbs.
Doesn't require much thinking now, just do it with regard to bulbs.
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- unclescrooge
- Posts: 6264
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I replaced six 150W bulbs in the kitchen with lower watt LEDs from Costco.
The kitchen gets the most usage and they're on for 5-6 hours a day.
I think I calculated the break even time was 9 months.
Break even period depends on your marginal cost and consumption.
The kitchen gets the most usage and they're on for 5-6 hours a day.
I think I calculated the break even time was 9 months.
Break even period depends on your marginal cost and consumption.
Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
I just replaced all light bulbs with LED lighting. I chose daylight, as it's just like daylight, and to me it's the brightest lighting. I've used over 50 60 watt equivalent bulbs, and love the change it's made. I just enjoyed doing it all myself, and got 6 packs of bulbs for 20 bucks at Home Depot. This low cost per bulb, makes the cost recovery time shorter for me. Every light in now LED, inside, and out. I figure 6 years payback on energy savings. The average cost per bulb for me was under 4 each. I was patient, and waited til specials. Took me 5 months, but I did it on the cheap.
Last edited by rustymutt on Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worth Upgrading to LED Lighting?
Our weekend home has 48 recessed cans (BR40) throughout the house. The primary living/kitchen area has 21 alone. I just replaced them all with LED bulbs. I tried several kinds first, as the cost to replace them all is substantial. I wanted to make sure the color was acceptable, and make sure they dimmed properly. I also wanted to determine how much light I actually needed, as the wattage of an LED can be confusing.
It's worth it to me for several reasons. A huge one is the heat load. Texas in the summer (as noted by ourbrooks) doesn't need any help heating up a house. When we flip on a room with (for example) 8 bulbs, instead of 480 watts of heat (8*60w), we now have <50 (8*6). You can actually feel the difference standing under one (as in it's not radiating heat). Another reason is the electricity savings. Matches the wattage heat load savings.
Another big one is longevity. Many of these bulbs are in hard to reach spots (12' ceilings or stairways). At 60 yrs old, I'll probably never change them again.
I ended up changing every bulb in the house. Even found some LED clear twinklers for bathroom usage, where clear bulbs are often used. My last step is to change the outside bulbs; I'll do that this weekend.
One reason this made economic sense was the house had been vacant a while when we bought it, plus it sat vacant another nine months while we remodeled. Many of the bulbs had gone out, so as long as I was replacing 20-30% of them, might as well go LED.
It's worth it to me for several reasons. A huge one is the heat load. Texas in the summer (as noted by ourbrooks) doesn't need any help heating up a house. When we flip on a room with (for example) 8 bulbs, instead of 480 watts of heat (8*60w), we now have <50 (8*6). You can actually feel the difference standing under one (as in it's not radiating heat). Another reason is the electricity savings. Matches the wattage heat load savings.
Another big one is longevity. Many of these bulbs are in hard to reach spots (12' ceilings or stairways). At 60 yrs old, I'll probably never change them again.
I ended up changing every bulb in the house. Even found some LED clear twinklers for bathroom usage, where clear bulbs are often used. My last step is to change the outside bulbs; I'll do that this weekend.
One reason this made economic sense was the house had been vacant a while when we bought it, plus it sat vacant another nine months while we remodeled. Many of the bulbs had gone out, so as long as I was replacing 20-30% of them, might as well go LED.
"Happiness is not about doing, it’s about being." - R Branson