Engineered wood floors?

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texasdiver
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Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

So this weekend we visited some friends who tore the carpeting out of their house and replaced it with engineered hardwood floors. My wife was extremely impressed with the results as they did a very good job with the DIY install. The planks they used were wide and were darked stained with a rustic distressed appearance which I guess is popular these days (compared to the shiny smoooth polished hardwood floors I remember from the past).

Just curious if anyone else here has undertaken a DIY install of engineered wood floors. If so do you have any comments or advice? We would be installing over a concrete slab floor on a 1-story house. Apparently the correct technique is to glue the floor planks directly to the concrete.

Specifically I'm interested in

1. Brands you like or dislike for this type of install on concrete slab?
2. Thoughts about the newer dark distressed wood that seems popular these days. Is it a fad that will pass? Can these be refinished like the older style smooth floors? I don't want to go to all this work and find out that it is completely dated in 10 years when we might go to sell our house.
3. Helpful hints?
4. How much of a project is this compared to hiring a contractor? I have my summers off so I can do the labor but I"m not really sure how much work it will be per room. I'm kind of guessing about 2 full days of labor per room. 1 day to rip out the carpet and prep the room for install (undercut the trim and so forth) and a second day to do the actual install. Is that realistic?
5. Thoughts on engineered wood floors in general as opposed to the traditional plank hardwood.
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Watty
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by Watty »

If you are looking at the engineered wood floors to save money be sure to also price solid hardwood floors and don't assume that the engineered wood will save you much.

When we did our floors we found that there was not much of price difference between them (I don't remember the exact numbers.) We ended up getting pre-finished solid oak, which was a brand name but mid-range.
edge
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by edge »

The rustic look is a trend but to be perfectly frank, cabin/rustic grade wood is low grade wood and it is likely a passing fad. So are ultra dark floors, especially 'rustic' ones that have less than precise milling/bevels, which turn them into dust traps. To achieve the ultra-wide plank (6+ inches) many manufacturers have had to add much lower grades of lumber to their portfolio which can lead to gapping/warping/etc.

What has happened over the past 10-15 years at the high end is manufacturers have added 'low gloss'/'cashmere'/'opal' finishes which have a more matte look. This has been a sustained long term trend (which ironically actually makes the floor look similar to the very old school oiled floors but without the maintenance).

I would recommend Muskoka or Vintage solid sawn for a glue down installation on concrete. These products have a thick wear layer and can be refinished as many times as solid hardwood. They are also extremely stable in a variety of relative humidity conditions. The milling is top notch as is the wood quality at exclusive/select&better/clear/etc.
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texasdiver
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

I looked up both Muskoka and Vintage as I hadn't heard of either of them before and it seems they are both Canadian companies. I'm not sure how much if any they have penetrated the Texas market as neither web site's find a dealer feature found any dealers near my zip code. But their stuff looks nice.

Somehow I had thought that solid hardwood would be a possible problem if installed over concrete slab. I will have to do more research. Something about the engineered hardwood being more dimensionally stable. There are a lot of little flooring shops around town. I'll stop into a few and ask around as they would know what works here given that pretty much every single house is on a slab. I'm happy to claim my cost savings on the labor end and still buy high quality product. I can do the rooms one-by-one as I get to them so there is no real hurry and not something I have to buy all at once.

Our house currently has dark hand-scraped planks in the living room only. Everywhere else is either tile or carpet. So I don't necessarily have to match the living room as there wouldn't really be any seams that aren't covered by doors and only in 2 places. I think my wife will probably want something a little lighter but still in the more distressed finish as that is so good at hiding scratches and dirt.
vtMaps
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by vtMaps »

We have large seasonal temperature/humidity swings up north. A big decision to make with engineered floors is whether you want the seams between the pieces to open up or not. If you glue down the floor, the seams will open and close with the seasons, and you should choose a floor with beveled edges.

Although engineered floor move much less than a solid hardwood floors, they do move with the seasons.

We chose to have a tight floor. We chose an engineered floor that had no bevels and we glued the tongue and groove together. During the seasonal expansion/contraction, all the movement occurs at the margins of the floor, i.e. under the baseboards. This is called floating floor. The baseboards serve to hold the edges down and hide the movement.

Do not glue the tongue and groove together unless the floor is floating. If you glue the floor down, all the movement cannot occur at the margins of the room and the seams will open up a bit. They may open unevenly... every third or fourth seam opening up.

One more thing... if you choose to let the floor float, you cannot pin it down. For example, if you have a large, very heavy bookcase pinning the floor down on one side of the room, and a bank of four door filing cabinets on the other side of the room, you may be "attaching" the floor to the subfloor in two places and not allowing it to float freely. This may result in one or two seams opening up widely.

--vtMaps
"Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" --Voltaire, as translated by Norman Lewis Torrey
edge
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by edge »

texasdiver wrote:I looked up both Muskoka and Vintage as I hadn't heard of either of them before and it seems they are both Canadian companies. I'm not sure how much if any they have penetrated the Texas market as neither web site's find a dealer feature found any dealers near my zip code. But their stuff looks nice.

Somehow I had thought that solid hardwood would be a possible problem if installed over concrete slab. I will have to do more research. Something about the engineered hardwood being more dimensionally stable. There are a lot of little flooring shops around town. I'll stop into a few and ask around as they would know what works here given that pretty much every single house is on a slab. I'm happy to claim my cost savings on the labor end and still buy high quality product. I can do the rooms one-by-one as I get to them so there is no real hurry and not something I have to buy all at once.

Our house currently has dark hand-scraped planks in the living room only. Everywhere else is either tile or carpet. So I don't necessarily have to match the living room as there wouldn't really be any seams that aren't covered by doors and only in 2 places. I think my wife will probably want something a little lighter but still in the more distressed finish as that is so good at hiding scratches and dirt.
Canadian milling is far superior to the American mills I have been in (when I was in private equity we bought and sold a few). The solid sawn products are a type of engineered floor and are incredibly stable. The differences between the solid sawn and typical engineered floor are 1) No plywood (or worse), it is multiple (3 normally) layers of solid wood and 2) the top wear layer is thick enough to be sanded / refinished 3+ times.

I would not glue down solid 3/4 on top of concrete. You can do click lock floating or glue down engineered / solid sawn. I prefer glue down, it feels more solid. However, I do have 7 1/2 inch wide Teragren stranded bamboo in my basement which is click lock and really like it.
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texasdiver
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

Sounds like glue down is the way to go over concrete. I did a floating laminate floor over a particle board subfloor at a previous house in Alaska and never really liked the hollow sound.

Anyone here have any experience with ripping up a glued down floor? Is it a giant mess of a job or are the adhesives fairly easy to remove? In the event that we want to replace some or all of it in a decade or so.
broadstone
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We DIY'ed installed glue down engineered wood floors in 2014

Post by broadstone »

My wife and I recently undertook laying down engineered wood floors in April 2014. We even flew my father in law down to help. He is a General Contractor of 15 years and experienced with nail-down hardwood flooring, but not glueing.

I did extensive (and I mean months) of research to get the installation right. I even called the glue company for installation advice. The rep told me to hire a pro but I didn't listen. We decided to go with the glue down method over our concrete floors. We ended up doing 60% of the work ourselves, firing my father in law and hiring a professional to clean up the mess and finish the job.

I will give you the short tips version and if you have more questions, I can answer.

After doing this I would never ever do it again, and advise you to hire a professional who has experience glueing floors. I'm glad your friends had success but for us (4 people), it was a pain in the backside. I wouldn't do it again, ever. If you do end up doing it for yourself, proceed with caution.

1. We chose http://www.truehardwoods.com/catalog/it ... 510203.htm and ordered online. Very good company with good prices and delivery is easy.

1a. You need to let the wood acclimatize inside your house for at least a week before you install. We left the boxes in our kitchen and opened the ends to let the air in. Do not stack more than 3 boxes on top of each other.

2. You should moisture test your floors. The glue we purchased had a really good moisture barrier so I wasn't worried. We live in Florida so lots of moisture here. If you live in a state where the temp doesn't drastically change, you won't have an issue.

2a. You will need to make sure your floors are level. If they aren't, planks can become unstable or pop up and cause future problems. We found some un-level areas in our home and had to have a contractor grind the the concrete which was very dusty. Some people recommend using self leveling concrete to fix the issues. Nearly every home has an un-level concrete floor.

3. The glue type is essential. We chose Taylor MS Plus. It has a moisture barrier included. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Taylor-MS-Pl ... /203431606. The glue must be applied perfectly meaning you must have glue coverage to the very edges of each plank. We have some spots where we rushed and didn't apply the right amounts of glue. 6 months later, those spots sound hollow and creak when you walk on them. Sounds like a floated floor. Thankfully there is only a few small areas where we made this error. I do find myself cringing when I walk on those spots though.

4. It's a very messy job as the glue gets everywhere and dries quickly. You will need to clean as you go. It helps to have 2 people installing and one person cleaning. We used mineral spirits to clean.The Taylor MS glue is much easier to clean up than the Bostik.

5. You must line up the planks perfectly and discard all planks that aren't perfectly milled. If you don't you will end up with small gaps in your floor like we did. We have some areas where we used poorly milled planks where you can see the gaps getting progressively worst. It is essential to make sure the edges of the planks are milled straight before you glue them in. No wood company has perfect wood milling and cutting, so you will find about 10% of planks aren't straight on the edges.If a salesman tells you their wood is milled perfectly, run the other way.

5a. Do not use a tapping block unless you are 100% sure your edges are fully set. Using a tapping block to get the tongue and groove to fit together will move the whole floor, again creating gaps. Here's some photo's of us not knowing any better.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2mwgta1.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2zgsoly.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2ebz4ue.jpg

6. You will need to have the right tools and saws. Be prepared to spend some $.

7. Dark wood shows every little spot of dust and dirt. Be prepared to clean often.

8. If you have concrete floors, engineered floors are best. Hardwoods are best nailed down to a subfloor.

9. It took almost 4 full days to lay 800 square feet. 2 more days for new baseboards. The cutting takes time and you will make errors.

10. You will need transitions if you have tile floors that the wood butts up to. The flooring company will advise you on which types but verify before you buy. We purchased the wrong ones and they were non returnable. You don't need transitions if your wood floor goes to carpet.

11. Insert the tongue into the groove, not the other way around. This will be less messy glue wise.

12. Some exotic woods darken or lighten from sunlight exposure. If you choose a sensitive wood type (such as Brazilian woods), you have to move furniture to let the colors even out. Took about 7 months of furniture shuffling.

That's the short version. Our floors are beautiful and we love them but I've learned my time (and sanity) is worth more than the aggravation of saving some $'s to DIY a project like this. If you hire someone, make sure they have extensive experience with glue downs. You really get what you pay for here.

http://i57.tinypic.com/sya1ax.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/14880o.jpg

Hope that helps you make a sensible decision.
Last edited by broadstone on Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:55 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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SkierMom
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by SkierMom »

Anyone with experience re-staining hardwood floors? I'm looking to strip the light stain off my birch flooring to a dark coffee stain. I think the contrast with white trim and white kitchens is sharp.

I love the dark stain, and this trend has been popular for the last 10 years or so. I would say currently, the light stained pine or oak has too much of an orange-yellowish glow for me.
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texasdiver
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

Wow, thanks for the detailed report Broadstone. Exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

What I would probably do is start with a 1-room install in a guest bedroom and see how it goes. The final result would be mostly covered by furniture and throw rugs so room for minor mistakes. Then based on that experience decide if I want to continue through the rest of the house. I've already got most of the expensive tools required except for the jamb saw which I can borrow from the friends who already did it.

What I have found on these kinds of DIY projects is that you notice every tiny mistake you make and they stick with you in your mind but no one else ever sees them. Which makes me wonder how many little mistakes there are on some professional jobs that you just never see.

One way or the other the carpeting in the house is getting pretty ragged and ugly and needs to go. It is the original contractor grade stuff that was installed when the house was built in 2006 and has had 8-9 years of heavy use by kids and pets.
broadstone
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by broadstone »

texasdiver wrote:Wow, thanks for the detailed report Broadstone. Exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

What I would probably do is start with a 1-room install in a guest bedroom and see how it goes. The final result would be mostly covered by furniture and throw rugs so room for minor mistakes. Then based on that experience decide if I want to continue through the rest of the house. I've already got most of the expensive tools required except for the jamb saw which I can borrow from the friends who already did it.

What I have found on these kinds of DIY projects is that you notice every tiny mistake you make and they stick with you in your mind but no one else ever sees them. Which makes me wonder how many little mistakes there are on some professional jobs that you just never see.

One way or the other the carpeting in the house is getting pretty ragged and ugly and needs to go. It is the original contractor grade stuff that was installed when the house was built in 2006 and has had 8-9 years of heavy use by kids and pets.
Sure no problem...sounds like you have a plan.

One thing I forgot to mention is the Taylor MS is water based glue, whereas some of the other glues aren't. That's what makes the Taylor glue so much easier to clean up.

If I had kids, I honestly wouldn't use engineered wood due to the lack of durability. My Aunt recently built a new home and she used tile planks which look just like hardwood. They are the same width as a hardwood plank, not square like a tile. I couldn't tell the difference. They are much more durable and don't get scratched.

Best of luck.
Riverstwo
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by Riverstwo »

I went with the engineered dark floor in one of my rooms and then cringed. It showed every footprint imaginable. Dark will also make the room look smaller. I ripped it all out and replaced it with a much lighter color which requires much less housework!
Riverstwo
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by Riverstwo »

I went with the engineered dark floor in one of my rooms and then cringed. It showed every footprint imaginable. Dark will also make the room look smaller. I ripped it all out and replaced it with a much lighter color which requires much less housework!
leonard
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by leonard »

texasdiver wrote:So this weekend we visited some friends who tore the carpeting out of their house and replaced it with engineered hardwood floors. My wife was extremely impressed with the results as they did a very good job with the DIY install. The planks they used were wide and were darked stained with a rustic distressed appearance which I guess is popular these days (compared to the shiny smoooth polished hardwood floors I remember from the past).

Just curious if anyone else here has undertaken a DIY install of engineered wood floors. If so do you have any comments or advice? We would be installing over a concrete slab floor on a 1-story house. Apparently the correct technique is to glue the floor planks directly to the concrete.

Specifically I'm interested in

1. Brands you like or dislike for this type of install on concrete slab?
2. Thoughts about the newer dark distressed wood that seems popular these days. Is it a fad that will pass? Can these be refinished like the older style smooth floors? I don't want to go to all this work and find out that it is completely dated in 10 years when we might go to sell our house.
3. Helpful hints?
4. How much of a project is this compared to hiring a contractor? I have my summers off so I can do the labor but I"m not really sure how much work it will be per room. I'm kind of guessing about 2 full days of labor per room. 1 day to rip out the carpet and prep the room for install (undercut the trim and so forth) and a second day to do the actual install. Is that realistic?
5. Thoughts on engineered wood floors in general as opposed to the traditional plank hardwood.
Have had laminate floor in our bedroom for 10 years. No visible wear to date. It was whatever Costco had on a coupon at the time and seems to work great.

If there are no stairs involved, I'd say this is easily a DIY project if you can safely use a crosscut saw and other simple tools.

I'd say 2 days per room is easily doable.

Buy or rent a crosscut saw with the appropriate blade for the material you will be cutting. You can use other power saws to cut the material - but a crosscut will save a lot of time due to efficiency.

You will need a table saw or other set up to rip material lengthwise.

One other thing - plan out your entire layout to try to avoid too much length-wise ripping of material. And, to avoid narrow ripped strips against walls and at transitions.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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texasdiver
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

Thanks guys...

The wife wants lighter wood than we have in the living room. I remembered that the builders left an extra box of flooring in the attic and it turns out that what we have now is LM Flooring Heritage Hickory Fireside: http://www.lmflooring.com/catalog/collection/heritage. You guys are right about the dark floors showing more dirt. We definitely find that to be true.

So that raises the question of whether we care about having two colors of floor in the house. There would be about 500 square feet to rip up and replace in the dining and living room if I wanted to do it all in something new. Or I can just transition to a new color under the doors. There would only be 3 seams where the two different floors connect and all 3 are at doorways so I could do a transition molding. I'm just not sure how it would look to have two different floor colors. I'm uncertain about how much work it would be to rip up the existing glued down floor and replace.

As for saws. I already have a Rigid job site table saw with a crosscut sled that is on wheels and I figured I could roll it into the room and use that instead of buying a compound miter saw. I've done a lot of crosscut work with it when building cabinets and drawers and with a crosscut sled it is perfectly square and precise. But I can always change my mind later.
edge
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by edge »

A single floor type flows better. Your current floor is 1/2 inch thick. Unless you pick another 1/2 inch product you will have ups and downs in your floor where people will be tripping over the transition all the time. Another problem with the floor you selected is that it cannot be refinished so you do have to rip/replace if you want to match.
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magellan
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by magellan »

texasdiver wrote:Or I can just transition to a new color under the doors. There would only be 3 seams where the two different floors connect and all 3 are at doorways so I could do a transition molding. I'm just not sure how it would look to have two different floor colors. I'm uncertain about how much work it would be to rip up the existing glued down floor and replace.
We replaced the carpet in a bedroom with solid maple. The hallway leading to the bedroom was solid oak.

When I was getting bids, everyone thought I should get a threshold of some sort and didn't think the two different woods would look right touching directly.

The oak and maple were both 3/4" and I asked the installer if he could dry fit a direct oak to maple transition without the threshold to see how it'd look. He ripped a 2" piece of maple to run parallel to an existing 2" piece of oak that ran across the doorway. The oak/maple joint was directly under the door when closed. The 3" maple planks in the bedroom ran perpendicular to the doorway, butting up to the 2" maple strip that ran under the door.

IMO, it came out perfect. The joint between the floors is smooth and even though the maple is almost 20 years newer and the wood is completely different, it looks like it was planned that way from the beginning. We usually keep the door open and the difference between the wood is very noticeable, but it works.
johnubc
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by johnubc »

texasdiver wrote: I figured I could roll it into the room
I would suggest that you cut the flooring outside, as the amount of fine dust generated by cutting these engineered floors is large. Cutting it in the room is going to cause a very big clean up task.
J295
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by J295 »

We had our engineered ash flooring professionally installed over a concrete slab in the context of a complete town home renovation. I can't speak to the DIY for this type of project, but am not surprised by an earlier poster that he eventually turned the job over to a professional. All floors are not created equal nor are all installers.

The earlier poster covered many important aspects, including moisture testing concrete, and using proper glue (expensive product to provide moisture barrier). Maintaining appropriate humidity levels in the home will be important post installation.

Good luck.
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texasdiver
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by texasdiver »

edge wrote:A single floor type flows better. Your current floor is 1/2 inch thick. Unless you pick another 1/2 inch product you will have ups and downs in your floor where people will be tripping over the transition all the time. Another problem with the floor you selected is that it cannot be refinished so you do have to rip/replace if you want to match.
Well, we didn't select it as we are the second owners of the house but point taken. Nevertheless, after watching this video of how to remove engineered floors from concrete, I'll think long and hard about ripping up the existing floors just to get a lighter color and a smoother threshold under 2 kids bedroom doors and a game room door. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urjn5trPf-k
broadstone
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Re: Engineered wood floors?

Post by broadstone »

I would get a sample of the light wood and lay it down next to the dark too see how it looks. It's not unusual to have to different colors in a home.

Keep this in mind, if you re-order the same brand and color as what you have installed in your home, the new wood still might not be the same color. When you buy wood, it has a run and edition number printed on the box. A good flooring company will make sure you get multiple boxes from the same milling run to ensure some consistency. If you re-purchase the same wood brand and color 2 years later, it may come form a different source and mill so there is a high chance it won't be the same color. There's a reason manufacturers tell people to mix and match wood from multiple boxes.

Make sure you buy saw blades that have lots of teeth and use a fresh blade every 300 sq ft. We didn't know this so we used 30 tooth blades and the cuts looks scrappy. Then switched to 60 teeth Diablo blades and the cuts were flawless. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Diablo-10-in ... 5yc1vZc2jq

Previous glue down removal. If the old glue was a urethane adhesive such as Bostik, it will be a pain to remove. If it was water abased like the Taylor MS Plus, it will be pretty easy to remove. I would say 95% chance of Urethane. Most floor installers use this because they don't know about the water based product, plus it's what they learned. Water based actually adheres to the wood far better and is non toxic.
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