Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

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beyou
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Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by beyou »

My MIL had yet another accident. She is 85, has trouble hearing and I suspect seeing
(macular degeneration). She has owned a few cards in the last 10 years, due to accidents.
She cracked a rib plowing into the back of another vehicle recently.
She was a decent driver until 75 and downhill from that point forward.

Despite all this, she insists she wants to buy a new car when she gets the insurance
proceeds from this accident. Any suggestions (legal and otherwise) as to how
to stop her once and for all from driving and accept her recent physical limitations ?
kksmom
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

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Last edited by kksmom on Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
letsgobobby
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by letsgobobby »

kksmom wrote:Contact state DMV?
yep. Often there is a form to fill out. In the meantime hide the keys.
Swampy
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Swampy »

I think a letter from her doctor to the DMV would suffice - but with all the new laws on privacy and HIPAA, you might not get anywhere.

I suppose you could call her auto insurance agent and see if the auto insurance policy can be cancelled. That, alone, might be enough to keep her from getting behind the wheel.


It's a really big problem here in Florida. Everyone, it seems, gravitates here, especially in winter, and the roads are filled with awfully dangerous drivers.

At the same point, taking away a senior's ability to drive takes away their independence and frequently pushes them over the edge. I'd rather see that than a senior take out a pregnant woman and a little kid crossing the street because the senior 'never saw them.'

Currently we're experiencing a surge of 'wrong way' accidents where I live, where seniors and the otherwise impaired get on the exit ramp of a highway - frequently causing a horrific crash killing themselves and others.
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dgdevil
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by dgdevil »

You have to have a plan that doesn't seem punitive. Yes, we are taking away your keys (metaphorically, maybe), but don't worry because a) we will drive you everywhere whenever you want; b) we will give you a smartphone and set up an Uber account; c) you can move in with us; d) etc., etc.
thewizzer
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by thewizzer »

In Illinois, law enforcement officers and doctors can contact the Secretary of State to request what essentially boils down to an 'unsafe driver investigation.' It usually involves having the elderly person come in for another driving exam. Don't know what state you are in, but you might want to look into something like that.
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Toons
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Toons »

At 85 years of age I took the keys from my Mother so she would not harm herself or others.
Smart decision :happy
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beyou
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by beyou »

dgdevil wrote:You have to have a plan that doesn't seem punitive. Yes, we are taking away your keys (metaphorically, maybe), but don't worry because a) we will drive you everywhere whenever you want; b) we will give you a smartphone and set up an Uber account; c) you can move in with us; d) etc., etc.
She got an iphone, and despite many attempts to teach her how to use it, it's an overpriced dumb phone
in her hands. Will certainly try Uber or at least make sure she has some taxi services in her contacts folder.

Good news is she has a "boyfriend" (both widowed) who still drives and seems
in better shape than her (he was a taxi driver at one point in his life). Not sure
how much longer that will be a safe option, but she is lucky in that respect.
He lives 30 minutes away, so not as convenient as it could be, but at least a couple
times/week they travel together for entertainment. We live 10 minutes away
and can help with grocery shopping etc.
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beyou
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by beyou »

thewizzer wrote:In Illinois, law enforcement officers and doctors can contact the Secretary of State to request what essentially boils down to an 'unsafe driver investigation.' It usually involves having the elderly person come in for another driving exam. Don't know what state you are in, but you might want to look into something like that.
Just searched our state DMV, and in addition to doctor and police, any individual with knowledge of the driver
can report a concern, that in theory leads to a test of their ability ( a test I can't imagine she would pass ).

At this point, she has no car, hers is in a body shop, maybe totaled, not sure.
Hopefully an eye and hearing medical result alone will cause her to fail.
I personally would not want to get in the car and give her a driver's test, if I was a state employee !

Having an unbiased third party make the decision is the way to go,
though I hope reporting the issue is confidential. Can't believe the police
and docs at the trauma center where she was admitted, would not do so
on their own. I guess they don't see the pattern, we do.
thewizzer
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by thewizzer »

blevine wrote:
thewizzer wrote:In Illinois, law enforcement officers and doctors can contact the Secretary of State to request what essentially boils down to an 'unsafe driver investigation.' It usually involves having the elderly person come in for another driving exam. Don't know what state you are in, but you might want to look into something like that.
Just searched our state DMV, and in addition to doctor and police, any individual with knowledge of the driver
can report a concern, that in theory leads to a test of their ability ( a test I can't imagine she would pass ).

At this point, she has no car, hers is in a body shop, maybe totaled, not sure.
Hopefully an eye and hearing medical result alone will cause her to fail.
I personally would not want to get in the car and give her a driver's test, if I was a state employee !

Having an unbiased third party make the decision is the way to go,
though I hope reporting the issue is confidential. Can't believe the police
and docs at the trauma center where she was admitted, would not do so
on their own. I guess they don't see the pattern, we do.
I know it might be difficult and it might lead to some hard feelings, but please don't simply assume that someone else is going to take care of the situation. As you noted yourself, the police or doctors don't have the luxury of knowing her entire driving history. If nothing happens, next time might be worse for her or someone else.
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Watty
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Watty »

One thing that some people don't realize is that in some areas you can hire taxis by the hour for doing things like running errands or going to doctors appointments and the driver will wait for you then take you to your next destination. The hourly price may not be all that expensive during low demand times like the middle of the day. If she does this a few times then she can find a driver she likes and schedule that driver for her next outing.

Compared to the cost of buying a car, maintenance, and insurance it could even be less expensive and the driver could help her do things like unloading the groceries.

With her vision deteriorating cooking and shopping might be getting harder too so you need to check to see if she is still eating well.

Some retirement centers have units that are basically apartments for people that don't need a lot of assistance and some have shuttle buses for taking people out. She could also get some of her meals there as she needs to. If she would agree to move to an apartment like that she might actually be able to keep a lot of her independence for longer.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by ResearchMed »

We had to face this with both of my parents, who FOUGHT like crazy and resisted.
After we visited one final time and declared we would NEVER get in a car with them, we had to do something.
(This was triggered by one of our children declaring after a visit with their own children that they'd never get in a car with the grandparents/great-grandparents again. That alarmed us, obviously.)

We had to threaten reporting them to the DMV and/or police (never got as far as looking into what we'd really need to do).

We suggested that they take the money they'd get from selling their car, along with money they would have spent on maintenance, insurance, parking, and eventually another car, and put it in a "taxi fund", and use it liberally for that and nothing else.
We offered to help them get an account with a local taxi service, so they would have an seamless a ride as possible, and just get billed.

But they were having none of it.
But we had help forcing them to sell the car.

I think that tainted the relationship for the remainder of their lives.
(However, the relationship wasn't a great one from as early as I can remember, no matter how hard I - then we - tried to ease things. So there wasn't much lost, but losing any of it was difficult.)

But having had a child HIT by a car, there was no way I could sit around waiting for that horror to occur because I sat by and did nothing.
We have no regrets.

It was the RIGHT thing to do, without question!

Meanwhile, MIL, in mid-90's is still sharp as a tack, and drives her younger friends to *their* doctors appointments.
That transition will probably be easier, because she's finding it difficult to walk very far, and recently fell, and she agrees that when we find an assisted living facility (near us, not 1,000 miles away!), she'll just give us her car.
(It's almost new. Gotta love the attitude of a spunky 93-year old buying a brand new car. She had to buy it because she was struck by, in HER terms, "this old man who was too old to drive"... he was about 10 years younger than her.)
Yes, we realize that her reflexes are not those of someone half her age. We want to get her to a safer housing situation, without a car, before it becomes "too late".

Added: My father's driving ability deteriorated most, by far. And he still insisted on driving. IF my mother had "been allowed" to do the driving, we might not have taken such drastic action, or at least not then.
So it wasn't the stereotyped gender situation in this case, at least.

RM
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dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

[response to OT comment removed by admin alex]

When I couldn't drive because of a broken leg a few years ago (for those of you who notice I just had a thread about buying a shopping cart due to a leg injury currently, let's just say my life is a little too exciting some times), I felt very, very isolated and to some degree helpless. No more hopping into the car to pick up a few groceries or a prescription at the pharmacy or something at the garden center. No getting to doctor's appointments by myself. You are basically stuck in your own house unless you are near very good public transportation. That has a huge emotional impact.

The OP should minimize that impact. The boyfriend driving will help, but the family should make sure the MIL knows they will drive her places, and at least at the beginning expect that to be frequently.

Our senior center has a bus that picks up seniors once a week at their homes and stops at a couple of grocery stores and picks them up later.

I like my Doro 618 phone, a clamshell that is basically an inexpensive phone and almost nothing else. There is an AARP discount. I am sure it is easier to use than a smart phone.

Also in my area there is a jack of all trades who is very dependable and can be hired to drive people places, often with little notice. The family could fork out for that is the MIL is worried about spending money.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by The Wizard »

A fair number of cases of age-related impaired driving are determined by actual incidents, not just looking at your birth date.
Driving through plate glass doors or windows is common around here due to confusion about which pedal does what.
Plus it's easy to tell when riding with someone whether they are decently together or not.
Are they using mirrors and turn signals properly?
Are they keeping car centered in the lane, not drifting to the right?
Are they keeping up well with the flow of traffic?

For me, it's easy to pick out impaired drivers at times, though some younger ones may simply never have been taught properly...
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ResearchMed
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by ResearchMed »

dolphinsaremammals wrote:When I couldn't drive because of a broken leg a few years ago, I felt very, very isolated and to some degree helpless. No more hopping into the car to pick up a few groceries or a prescription at the pharmacy or something at the garden center. No getting to doctor's appointments by myself. You are basically stuck in your own house unless you are near very good public transportation. That has a huge emotional impact.

The OP should minimize that impact. The boyfriend driving will help, but the family should make sure the MIL knows they will drive her places, and at least at the beginning expect that to be frequently.

Our senior center has a bus that picks up seniors once a week at their homes and stops at a couple of grocery stores and picks them up later.

I like my Dora 618 phone, a clamshell that is basically an inexpensive phone and almost nothing else. There is an AARP discount. I am sure it is easier to use than a smart phone.

Also in my area there is a jack of all trades who is very dependable and can be hired to drive people places, often with little notice. The family could fork out for that is the MIL is worried about spending money.
Have the driver (who needs to be stopped) tally up ALL of the assorted costs of keeping the car, including any parking costs (or even tickets?).
It's not a small sum.

Suggest that they use that freely for taxi's "at their convenience".
Yes, it's a change in mindset, but IF they can see that financially it's not too different (assuming that is the case... and not all locales have good taxi coverage, which is a problem in this case), then once they start doing it, they might be surprised at how convenient it really is.
And no searching for parking spots ever again!

Getting an account with a taxi company might also get a discount.

And some localities have "coupons" at a discount for seniors. That makes the "taxi fund" go a lot further.

RM
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thewizzer
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by thewizzer »

ResearchMed wrote:We had to face this with both of my parents, who FOUGHT like crazy and resisted.
After we visited one final time and declared we would NEVER get in a car with them, we had to do something.
(This was triggered by one of our children declaring after a visit with their own children that they'd never get in a car with the grandparents/great-grandparents again. That alarmed us, obviously.)

We had to threaten reporting them to the DMV and/or police (never got as far as looking into what we'd really need to do).

We suggested that they take the money they'd get from selling their car, along with money they would have spent on maintenance, insurance, parking, and eventually another car, and put it in a "taxi fund", and use it liberally for that and nothing else.
We offered to help them get an account with a local taxi service, so they would have an seamless a ride as possible, and just get billed.

But they were having none of it.
But we had help forcing them to sell the car.

I think that tainted the relationship for the remainder of their lives.
(However, the relationship wasn't a great one from as early as I can remember, no matter how hard I - then we - tried to ease things. So there wasn't much lost, but losing any of it was difficult.)

But having had a child HIT by a car, there was no way I could sit around waiting for that horror to occur because I sat by and did nothing.
We have no regrets.

It was the RIGHT thing to do, without question!

Meanwhile, MIL, in mid-90's is still sharp as a tack, and drives her younger friends to *their* doctors appointments.
That transition will probably be easier, because she's finding it difficult to walk very far, and recently fell, and she agrees that when we find an assisted living facility (near us, not 1,000 miles away!), she'll just give us her car.
(It's almost new. Gotta love the attitude of a spunky 93-year old buying a brand new car. She had to buy it because she was struck by, in HER terms, "this old man who was too old to drive"... he was about 10 years younger than her.)
Yes, we realize that her reflexes are not those of someone half her age. We want to get her to a safer housing situation, without a car, before it becomes "too late".

Added: My father's driving ability deteriorated most, by far. And he still insisted on driving. IF my mother had "been allowed" to do the driving, we might not have taken such drastic action, or at least not then.
So it wasn't the stereotyped gender situation in this case, at least.

RM
Thank you for sharing your real life experience dealing with this issue. I would imagine that some of this is pretty typical (tainted relationship, etc...). Can I ask what help you had in forcing them to sell their car?
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by flyingaway »

My 84 years old father is still riding his bicycle.
Fallible
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Fallible »

blevine wrote:My MIL had yet another accident. She is 85, has trouble hearing and I suspect seeing
(macular degeneration). She has owned a few cards in the last 10 years, due to accidents.
She cracked a rib plowing into the back of another vehicle recently.
She was a decent driver until 75 and downhill from that point forward.

Despite all this, she insists she wants to buy a new car when she gets the insurance
proceeds from this accident. Any suggestions (legal and otherwise) as to how
to stop her once and for all from driving and accept her recent physical limitations ?
Absolutely contact the state DMV. She is a danger to others and she should be told that. Often bad drivers are thinking only of themselves, that they want/need to drive, and not that they could harm other people. Also, If she has macular degeneration, which is progressive, then depending on its advancement and considering her age her central vision could be close to nil, i.e., legally blind.
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Nestegg_User
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Nestegg_User »

You could try what we did for spouses father a number of years ago (MIL did not drive)... the battery gave out on the car and we did not replace it...it stays in the garage.

Now you may have to find a way to force it to go dead, and if they are not able to charge/replace on their own... it should be able to stay in their garage and stay as safe as they would be.
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Aptenodytes »

We can look forward to regulators and insurance companies catching up with rapidly evolving needs and creating mechanisms to make these kinds of transitions more routine and more objective. Similar things happened over the past 30 years regarding young drivers -- the procedures are generally better now than they were when I was a kid, if far from perfect.

Until then the burden is on the family members to step in when needed, and everyone who makes the kinds of tough choices reported here, and endures spite and enmity as a result, is owed our collective thanks. You'll never know individually how many lives you saved, but altogether you have saved a lot.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Beth* »

We had my father-in-law's doctor call the state motor vehicles department to express concern. The state required him to take a driving test. He failed. They gave him the option of taking a driving class for seniors and getting tested again. He did and he failed again. End of driver's license.

I have already told my children that when it is time for me to stop driving I will probably not be very gracious about it and they will need to make me stop. I have told them that whatever I say at that time, I forgive them in advance for whatever they have to do to keep me and other people on the road safe.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Lynette »

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Beth*
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Beth* »

Lynette wrote:I know of instances where the parent is no longer talking to the child who reported them to the DMV and had the license revoked - in fact went to court to get it back.
It's better to get the person's doctor to call the DMV if you can. Over the years we have regularly taken our elderly parents to various medical appointments so we have always known their doctors.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Sheepdog »

"For better or for worse, our current culture is very car-dependent; in many places, cars are the only convenient link to the outside world. Unfortunately, as people age, driving can become more difficult and more dangerous. The elderly drive less, but have more accidents per mile than younger drivers. This is partially because elderly individuals are more likely to be affected by poor eyesight, chronic disease, and medications that might impair driving." Sorry I don't have the quote source, but I believe it.
States have varying ways in issuing licenses to elderly drivers. Many have no age restrictions. Some are at least trying to recognize that age can be hazardous. My state, Indiana, requires in-person renewal, not by mail on on-line, with eye exam every 3 years for those 75 to 84, then every 2 years at 85 an older. That is one way.
My neighboring state, Illinois, requires a road test at each renewal for those over 75 and renewals are accelerated to every 2 years from age 81 to 86, then every year after age 87. I would like to see Illinois requirement become nationwide. (I will be 82 this year. )

EDIT: Here are the age related driving restrictions for each state: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/olderdrivers
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ResearchMed
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by ResearchMed »

Beth* wrote:We had my father-in-law's doctor call the state motor vehicles department to express concern. The state required him to take a driving test. He failed. They gave him the option of taking a driving class for seniors and getting tested again. He did and he failed again. End of driver's license.

I have already told my children that when it is time for me to stop driving I will probably not be very gracious about it and they will need to make me stop. I have told them that whatever I say at that time, I forgive them in advance for whatever they have to do to keep me and other people on the road safe.
DH and I have an agreement (yup, let's see how it works when push comes to shove...) that if EITHER of us declares that the other shouldn't be driving, that person STOPS driving NOW, and we switch places, and discuss it later.
And it stays that way until there is reason to "try again", meaning whatever the problem was is resolved or mitigated somehow.

As with my parents (see above), we'd get quite familiar with the local taxi or car service drivers, be it for a long time or short.

We have had to do this short term only thus far, and although the agreement was adhered to, there was "just a bit" of grumbling at first.
Then the other did all of the driving, including to medical appointments (easy, as we both want to be there when there are potentially serious matters to discuss), and also some extra use of taxis, so "the other" isn't put upon if there are other things that need to be done.

While we look for an assisted living facility for MIL nearby, we are also keeping an eye out for what we might want in the future. (We'll want a different type of "facility", so this might on help in terms of general background.)

We are very relieved that MIL is not resisting (and is planning ahead), which is quite the opposite of the struggle we had with both of my parents.

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wilpat
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by wilpat »

It is my opinion that each person's (regardless of gender or age) driving ability should be verified periodically. Many states require renewal of your license at different intervals depending on age. The older you are the shorter the interval. I also think that interval is too long in some states.

Some people are very capable of driving well at an advanced age where some shouldn't be driving at age 40!

Many years ago when I lived in Florida an old man hit and killed two young girls and kept driving after he hit them, because he didn't know that he had hit them. His eyesight was impaired and his wife usually rode with him and helped with observing the road etc. while he was driving. She was not with him this day. The point of the story is that he was able to renew his Ohio drivers license by mail with no test required! It took Ohio less than 6 months to change that method of renewal.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by cherijoh »

Swampy wrote:I think a letter from her doctor to the DMV would suffice - but with all the new laws on privacy and HIPAA, you might not get anywhere.

I suppose you could call her auto insurance agent and see if the auto insurance policy can be cancelled. That, alone, might be enough to keep her from getting behind the wheel.


It's a really big problem here in Florida. Everyone, it seems, gravitates here, especially in winter, and the roads are filled with awfully dangerous drivers.

At the same point, taking away a senior's ability to drive takes away their independence and frequently pushes them over the edge. I'd rather see that than a senior take out a pregnant woman and a little kid crossing the street because the senior 'never saw them.'

Currently we're experiencing a surge of 'wrong way' accidents where I live, where seniors and the otherwise impaired get on the exit ramp of a highway - frequently causing a horrific crash killing themselves and others.
I have witnessed several senior drivers make bad driving decisions that could have caused serious injury to themselves and others. This includes one instance when the driver was on the wrong side of a divided median - two lanes going each way. (This was in broad daylight with no adverse weather conditions). Despite the fact that there was traffic approaching them in the same lane (me) and me blaring on my horn, the elderly driver continued to drive on the wrong side of the median. I was able to pull into the right most of the two lanes. Since NC doesn't require front license tags I wasn't able to get their tag number to report them, although I did pull off into a parking lot and call 911.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Beth* »

Swampy wrote:I think a letter from her doctor to the DMV would suffice - but with all the new laws on privacy and HIPAA, you might not get anywhere.
There is nothing in HIPAA to prevent you from expressing a concern to the doctor. Depending upon how you interpret HIPAA, and most medical care facilities seem to use the most stringent interpretation possible, there may be restrictions on what the doctor can tell you regarding the actions he or she took after being contacted. Never let a healthcare provider tell you that they cannot listen to whatever information you might have because of HIPAA laws. That just isn't accurate.

In general, by the time your parent is 85 it is a good idea to have them sign something with the doctor to authorize the doctor to communicate with you at any time. If they haven't done this I would look into it.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by patriciamgr2 »

This topic has been addressed on the Forum several times (eg viewtopic.php?f=11&t=136969 ) The OP in that topic followed up on my suggestion that an independent driving evaluation be obtained so that facts could be presented to the driver. In that case, I believe that suggestions on driving technique kept the older driver on the road.

[FWIW, I reject the argument that just driving to familiar places is safe despite reduced ability; that ignores the unfamiliar & unpredictable (to put it politely) behavior of pedestrians & other drivers!]

IMO, these decisions should always be ability-based, not age or gender based. Facts or opinions from professionals make discussions more productive.

Good Luck
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by gerrym51 »

I hope nobody wants to take my licesnse based on age. You should ask Taylor Lattimore what he thinks- isn't he 90.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

As to the taxi suggestion, there are zero taxis in my rural area.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by letsgobobby »

gerrym51 wrote:I hope nobody wants to take my licesnse based on age. You should ask Taylor Lattimore what he thinks- isn't he 90.
we grant licenses on the basis of ability AND age - a competent 14 year old cannot drive in my state, no matter what.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by White Coat Investor »

Contact the DMV. They'll call her in for a test. She'll fail it. She'll lose her license. She may still drive. She may also hate the person who took her independence away from her for the rest of her life.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by ResearchMed »

dolphinsaremammals wrote:As to the taxi suggestion, there are zero taxis in my rural area.
That is when there is a real problem for seniors, or even anyone without a drivers license and vehicle.
It's especially bad for anyone who did drive, and then can't, whether due to age or injury/medical condition, because the housing was arranged keeping in mind that one *did* have transportation.

There aren't good solutions for this anywhere ... yet... and it will become a bigger and bigger problem.

RM
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letsgobobby
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by letsgobobby »

thewizzer wrote: I know it might be difficult and it might lead to some hard feelings, but please don't simply assume that someone else is going to take care of the situation. As you noted yourself, the police or doctors don't have the luxury of knowing her entire driving history. If nothing happens, next time might be worse for her or someone else.
A physician may or may not be obligated or permitted under state law to report a suspected impaired older driver. State laws vary; some states are mandatory reporters, and some are not. If her doctor practices in a mandatory state, then she is somewhat HIPAA protected if she files against a patient's wishes. In a non-mandatory state she may not be protected from a breach of confidentiality lawsuit. Imagine how complex the ethics and legality of this get. I practice in WA state which is non-mandatory; but on the border with OR, which is mandatory. An OR impaired driver is evaluated in my hospital: am I protected if I report him without permission to the Oregon DMV? Am I at risk if I don't report him? Fun times for our ethicist and risk management teams.

Family members don't have these problems. They are not bound by HIPAA, and can and should report impaired drivers, but note many states do not protect the confidentiality of such a report. Grandma (or Grandpa, Victoria) will find out who ratted.

The AMA once had a committee on counseling older drivers and I have attended several presentations on this topic. At present the AMA has farmed out its publications to the American Geriatric Society. The pamphlet is available for free download here:

http://geriatricscareonline.org/Product ... ivers/B013

The NHTSA also has a very good publication which is worth reading:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/oldd ... iversbook/

And chapter 8 in that book has a list of state requirements.
Last edited by letsgobobby on Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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William Million
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by William Million »

We had my father's doctor write a letter to the DMV. Hated to do it but it might well have saved a life.
HogsAndApples
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by HogsAndApples »

[delete]
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William Million
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by William Million »

VictoriaF wrote:
Nearing_Destination wrote:You could try what we did for spouses father a number of years ago (MIL did not drive)... the battery gave out on the car and we did not replace it...it stays in the garage.

Now you may have to find a way to force it to go dead, and if they are not able to charge/replace on their own... it should be able to stay in their garage and stay as safe as they would be.
EmergDoc wrote:Contact the DMV. They'll call her in for a test. She'll fail it. She'll lose her license. She may still drive. She may also hate the person who took her independence away from her for the rest of her life.
I have more respect for people who address problems directly than use deceptive measures against their family members.

Victoria
Reasoning with a person at that stage does not always work. It did not in our case. It was more important to prevent an unnecessary death.
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Nestegg_User
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Nestegg_User »

VictoriaF wrote:
Nearing_Destination wrote:You could try what we did for spouses father a number of years ago (MIL did not drive)... the battery gave out on the car and we did not replace it...it stays in the garage.

Now you may have to find a way to force it to go dead, and if they are not able to charge/replace on their own... it should be able to stay in their garage and stay as safe as they would be.
EmergDoc wrote:Contact the DMV. They'll call her in for a test. She'll fail it. She'll lose her license. She may still drive. She may also hate the person who took her independence away from her for the rest of her life.
I have more respect for people who address problems directly than use deceptive measures against their family members.

Victoria

The FIL had had a stroke and had significant mobility/coordination/ accuity impairments and could barely get into the vehicle, much less drive it. AFA the DMV, when the license needed to be renewed, he went in with walker, taking over ten minutes just to get to the desk...but the DMV still gave him a renewal...they did not even do an eye test or coodination test, much less any driving skill test..so relying on the state DMV is not always adequate . We may differ in our approach, but feel that the physical impairments made it significantly hazardous to both him and MIL and to the general public...we feel NO REGRET in our actions.
(They currently (few years later) are both totally homebound and need assistance to even get out of chairs, etc...)
tarheal93
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by tarheal93 »

Have your MIL's physician contact DMV--in nearly all states there is a form you can do online or fax. Letters take too long as you need quick action. There is substantial liability there for her doctor if he/she doesn't do this. If your recall years ago the 80 plus year old man in California whose killed 8 plus injured many others at a farmers market. He did not get sued but his physician did and lost. His insurance company did not cover him. Lost nearly everything. I have taken away scores of licenses. Most of the time it is the responsible physician pressing the family to do this. Many families get angry. Worst case scenario is the elderly person has to take a driving test and or course. If they pass great. If they fail the roads are safer. It is a win/win. Driving is a privilege--not a right.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

ResearchMed wrote:
dolphinsaremammals wrote:As to the taxi suggestion, there are zero taxis in my rural area.
That is when there is a real problem for seniors, or even anyone without a drivers license and vehicle.
It's especially bad for anyone who did drive, and then can't, whether due to age or injury/medical condition, because the housing was arranged keeping in mind that one *did* have transportation.

There aren't good solutions for this anywhere ... yet... and it will become a bigger and bigger problem.

RM
It occurs to me that those cars that drive themselves, and to which I have paid no attention, may be useful for this eventually.
ChrisC
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by ChrisC »

My 95 MIL still drives and drives well, though she voluntarily decided not to drive during the evenings unless it's an emergency, like last year when she drove herself to the hospital emergency room and then waited 6 hours before someone attended her! We worry about her on the road but the accidents she's had the last 10 years have been the fault of other drivers, though 15 years ago she backed into our garage accidentally. We were looking at her insurance policy the other day, and in prominent bold letters it said "95 Year Old Female Driver." Was her insurance company trying to tell her something? And I think her rates are comparable to the rates of an insured 22 female driver.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Johno »

Speak no evil.
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Fallible
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Fallible »

EmergDoc wrote:Contact the DMV. They'll call her in for a test. She'll fail it. She'll lose her license. She may still drive. She may also hate the person who took her independence away from her for the rest of her life.
She may be angry for a time, but eventually it will subside and, if dementia is involved, it will likely be forgotten quickly. In any case, the family has no choice but to stop the driving or face consequences that could be far worse than an unhappy relative.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by hicabob »

A person I used to work with had to stop driving in his late sixties due to Parkinson's. He was starting to hit stuff and thought it was a steering problem with the car. The mechanic said the car was fine but the driver ended up with a Parkinson's diagnosis. He said the bad driving was due to his nerve feedback loop being too slow. (we worked with servos so an interesting analogy) . He was a pretty bad driver a couple years before, frequently going over curbs etc. but cautious and careful so not too scary.
Fallible
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Fallible »

ChrisC wrote:My 95 MIL still drives and drives well, though she voluntarily decided not to drive during the evenings unless it's an emergency, like last year when she drove herself to the hospital emergency room and then waited 6 hours before someone attended her! We worry about her on the road but the accidents she's had the last 10 years have been the fault of other drivers, though 15 years ago she backed into our garage accidentally. We were looking at her insurance policy the other day, and in prominent bold letters it said "95 Year Old Female Driver." Was her insurance company trying to tell her something? And I think her rates are comparable to the rates of an insured 22 female driver.
Driving well should include driving defensively, anticipating a possible accident and maneuvering quickly to avoid it. From what I have seen and read, this kind of alertness and quick judgement is often lacking in some elderly drivers, particularly those with medical conditions requiring medication or multiple medications that could affect reaction time. Of course I should also add that defensive driving is too often lacking in drivers of ALL ages.
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by john94549 »

My Mom had macular and a substantial hearing deficit (deaf in one ear and major deficit in the other). Her eye doctor convinced her. Amazing how many options there are these days for non-driving seniors. In her locale it was called "catch-a-ride", staffed by other retired folks who happily drove non-driving seniors to appointments, picked up groceries, etc. It was administered by the local County senior outreach program. All gratis, but they did ask for a $25/mo donation from those who could afford it. This might be a subject of research, as the first question will be "but how will I . . . (fill in the blank)". Except for seniors who already are well-served by public transit, it is a problem.

Uber, Lyft, and other programs are also options, but we dinosaurs seldom use them, and even if we tried, the "burbs" aren't well-covered, and I doubt a ride-share driver would stick around during a one-hour medical appointment. The "retireds helping retireds" is probably your best bet, assuming it exists in the locale.
Fallible
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Fallible »

john94549 wrote:My Mom had macular and a substantial hearing deficit (deaf in one ear and major deficit in the other). Her eye doctor convinced her. Amazing how many options there are these days for non-driving seniors. In her locale it was called "catch-a-ride", staffed by other retired folks who happily drove non-driving seniors to appointments, picked up groceries, etc. It was administered by the local County senior outreach program. All gratis, but they did ask for a $25/mo donation from those who could afford it. This might be a subject of research, as the first question will be "but how will I . . . (fill in the blank)". Except for seniors who already are well-served by public transit, it is a problem.

Uber, Lyft, and other programs are also options, but we dinosaurs seldom use them, and even if we tried, the "burbs" aren't well-covered, and I doubt a ride-share driver would stick around during a one-hour medical appointment. The "retireds helping retireds" is probably your best bet, assuming it exists in the locale.
This raises an important point that families can't just take the car away - they must also arrange for, or at least help arrange for other transportation.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by Carefreeap »

I'll relate our story because it shows what a truly stubborn person can do.

About a year ago my now 80 year old MIL came to a construction zone was told to turn around and make a turn. She told the flagger to "F" off and drove through. DH was advised by the home health agency because the caregivers were no longer allowed to drive with her. This was on top of several parking lot fender benders and closely followed by a moving violation with a criminal failing to stop at the scene of an accident. She side swiped a car. DH and I have financial and medical POAs. DH called her doctor and described what happened. Doctor called MIL a couple of days later and advised her that he wanted to have her tested at the DMV. She agreed and a notice arrived stating that her license was suspended until she passed the drivers test. She continued to drive but with her 79 year old SIL in the car with her under the mistaken belief that she could drive as long as somebody 18 or older was in the car. :oops:

She failed the test at least 3x. In OR there are mandated minimum test intervals. Therefore if you fail the first time you have to wait a week, the second a month and so on. SIL had the bright idea for MIL to hire a driving instructor. The woman was a former DMV test official and took her to the DMV with the easiest instruction course. She passed. :oops: :oops: :oops:

She has no business driving a car. I seriously question the ethics of a driving instructor who takes on a 79 year old client and coaches her on how to pass. :confused

ETA: MIL also fired her doctor and wrote to the State Medical board to file a complaint against him. I'm sure they run into stuff like this all the time but I'm sure he didn't need the hassle.
Last edited by Carefreeap on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sambb
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Re: Time to stop driving for 85 yo MIL

Post by sambb »

seniors (of variable age) can and do have cognitive decline that can make driving dangerous and can be a financial liability issue. then again, i hope i live long enough to get to that point! I would call the DMV on the person.
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