"Wining and dining" in medical community

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blu9535
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"Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by blu9535 »

In a recent thread, a surgeon referred to:
the "wining and dining" that is integral to the medical community.

As an outsider (with some friends in the medical community), I'm interested in this. Do others of you who are doctors/surgeons/etc see this too, as a sort of cultural necessity of being a doctor or surgeon? Would you be shunned by your colleagues if you decided not to live the wining and dining lifestyle? Do you know any doctors or surgeons who decided to live a low-expenses lifestyle? Just curious.
Looking4Ward
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by Looking4Ward »

I can only speak to what I saw after being involved in the medical community for a couple of decades, but from my perspective the "wining and dining" could be referring to the networking efforts a specialist would be required to perform in order to build relationships with the referring network comprised of FP, IM, Pedi and OBGYN providers. Unlike primary providers who tend to keep a patient once they've gotten them, the success of a specialist hinges on continuous referrals. If the primary providers don't know you, like you, or respect you, then it will be a struggle.
lightheir
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by lightheir »

As a fairly new attending, there isn't too much wining and dining amongst my current cohort. I think it does vary by specialty, but even surgeons in general aren't exactly rolling it compared to bankers.

In terms o spending for lifestyle, it's not required at all. As long as you're professional at work, and don't show up in an embarrassingly disheveled state, you should be fine. Every MD has gone through residency, where you spend long hours for very little pay, so that's more the norm when you're out of training.
staythecourse
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by staythecourse »

Wining and dining I think refers to "courting" potential referral sources for your business/ specialty you practice by taking them out and talking about what services you can provide. No different then any other job where you try to make contacts with others.

Medical fields are interesting as you are like any other small business, but the service you are marketing is yourself.

Good luck.
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climber2020
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by climber2020 »

blu9535 wrote:
As an outsider (with some friends in the medical community), I'm interested in this. Do others of you who are doctors/surgeons/etc see this too, as a sort of cultural necessity of being a doctor or surgeon?
Nope.
blu9535 wrote:Would you be shunned by your colleagues if you decided not to live the wining and dining lifestyle?
Don't care. Very few of my close friends are doctors, or even in any medical field.
blu9535 wrote: Do you know any doctors or surgeons who decided to live a low-expenses lifestyle? Just curious.
My monthly fixed and variable expenses usually tally about $2,000 a month which I think is pretty good. I don't foresee this going up significantly in the future, other than the usually increase due to inflation. I pretty much have everything I want (which is not much) with no desire for any more material goods. I do spend about 10-15 G's a year on travel though.
vencat
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by vencat »

'Wining and dining' is a bunch of BS and not at all integral to the medical community. By the same token, golfing or private club membership is not required!
1) Rarely, at the group practice level, there may be a meet and greet introductory meeting for a new physician with hors d'oeuvres and wine. I can think of 2 or 3 in a 15 year period.
I can think of some meetings where we have provided breakfast to have a chance to meet with referring physician groups. Very modest affairs.
I have been in oncology practice for 14 years at same place and had not met many referring physicians!!!
2) Not unusual to have dinner meetings in a fancy restaurant usually with a physician speaker discussing a new drug for a pharmaceutical company. Occasionally medical reps bring lunch for physicians and their staff to make their sales pitch.
Highly regulated and monitored. There is a website which monitors how much a physician received (cost of meal etc) from different companies.
The days of freebies are gone.
So not much wining but certainly a lot of WHINING! :wink:
livesoft
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by livesoft »

I have two close family members who are physicians. I can state that my family cooks less at home and eats out more often than their families.
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kingsnake
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by kingsnake »

Only CEOs and administrators (of hospitals and insurance companies) are wining and dining these days!
HIinvestor
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by HIinvestor »

Yes, H and I eat out more often than many of the MDs we know, especially since H retired. Many of the AmDs in our state don't show up for the pharma meals either and prefer to have the time instead of having to listen to a pitch and be listed on a database for eating a meal from pharma.
obgraham
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by obgraham »

Just like in any other line of work, there are all types. I know a number of docs who cherish the country club lifestyle. I know just as many, if not more, who live a pretty simple life, and prefer to spend their time with their family, their workshop, or their hobby farm.

Then again, I live in an area somewhat deficient in high end eating establishments.
Lafder
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by Lafder »

More whining and dining than wining and dining amongst me and my friends :)

Yes we have solid income and can eat out as often as we wish. But it is not about fancy for us.

I do not think it is a valid generalization that doctors "wine and dine" = fancy spending on luxuries more than most. My teen age daughter thinks non medical folks are much more fashionable and stylish with "country club and wine lifestyles" than the doctors she knows. But, there is the bias in who I have become and stayed friends with. Her more stylish (wining and dining) parents of friends are non MDs.

Pharmaceutical and medical supply reps used to wine and dine docs on regular basis before some of their guidelines changed.

I think the Millionaire Next Door described things well. There are many docs and other high income folks who spend too much. But many more docs I know are relatively frugal (though with more income so more to spend, being frugal is relative to income). There are many Hondas, Subarus, Toyotas, and a only a few volvos or BMWs amongst my doctor friends. I do not see much correlation between specialty and car type, though the highest price cars I can think of are specialty surgeons. No, I take that back, the highest priced car I can think of is a nonMD.

I remember my medical director had us over for a catered department dinner at her house. We got there just as she was asking the caterer to tone down the slipcovered chairs and place settings. Apparently the caterer was going for more of a "wining and dining" experience than she had envisioned. But yes, we were at a catered sit down dinner at her home. Catered dinners are highly unusual in my doctor friend group. And I have had folks over as well as gone to other's houses where take out including pizza has been what is served in a help yourself way.

Best wishes,
lafder
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obgyn65
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by obgyn65 »

No and no.
blu9535 wrote:In a recent thread, a surgeon referred to:
the "wining and dining" that is integral to the medical community.Do others of you who are doctors/surgeons/etc see this too, as a sort of cultural necessity of being a doctor or surgeon? Would you be shunned by your colleagues if you decided not to live the wining and dining lifestyle? Just curious.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by White Coat Investor »

Hilarious that this perception would be out there. While many might want to wine and dine docs, I don't see docs doing it very often at all. Most of the docs in my group drive a non-luxury SUV, a Prius, or a Leaf. Not exactly big spenders. Sure, we can afford to travel, eat out, and buy some luxuries. But the lifestyle isn't what most people think it is.
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Puakinekine
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by Puakinekine »

EmergDoc wrote:Hilarious that this perception would be out there. While many might want to wine and dine docs, I don't see docs doing it very often at all. Most of the docs in my group drive a non-luxury SUV, a Prius, or a Leaf. Not exactly big spenders. Sure, we can afford to travel, eat out, and buy some luxuries. But the lifestyle isn't what most people think it is.
Ditto here. I laughed when I saw this as well. In a community that is chronically short of docs, and with the docs we have perpetually exhausted, there is no wining and dining at all. For one thing, there's no way there could be much wining as everyone is either on call or working most of the time.
kayli69
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by kayli69 »

There are so many misperceptions out there. After getting to work at 6am and operating until 5pm (earliest), I am utterly exhausted. The last thing I would want to do is go out to dinner. The only time I get to see my wife and children is from 6pm until they go to bed.

And yes, most of my physician friends feel the same. And thinking of their cars, I see a Toyota minivan, a Jeep, and a chevy pickup. All of us would rather be spending the night at our hunting cabin eating chili and having a beer than going out to some fancy dinner or club!
sambb
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by sambb »

Funny that people still think that this wining and dining goes on. Most docs i work with, work 60-80 hours a week, and have families to go home to. THe last thing they want is to spend 3 hours on dinner at a restaurant with other medical professionals.. Where do these perceptions come from.
hmw
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by hmw »

I am a sub specialty surgeon. No wining and dining for me. The only exception I can think of, is that the drug/device reps usually take docs out for "wining and dining" at national or regional conferences.

I think docs drive nicer cars than the general population where I am, judging by the number of German cars on doctors' parking lot at my hospital.
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StormShadow
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by StormShadow »

Drug rep dinners. That's about as close to the "wining and dining" I get.
john94549
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by john94549 »

And we are shocked. Plumbers get "wined and dined" by faucet manufacturers. Human plumbers get "wined and dined" by their counterparts. If you get my drift.
A-Commoner
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by A-Commoner »

There is some wining and dining where I practice. This happens when a new physician joins the community and you meet with him/her and the spouse and tour them around the community. It also happens during medical county society meetings which happen monthly. Then there are the hospital functions for the medical staff and administrators. Nothing too extravagant at the level of "Wolf of Wall Street" bacchanalia where hookers and blow are around. Reports of excessive wining and dining in the medical community are vastly exaggerated. Everyone is just too tired to even show up.
staythecourse
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by staythecourse »

Interesting as I have plenty of referrals who want to meet up for dinner. Don't know why as I am in the general consensus I would rather just go home and spend time with the family.

I try to limit it to once every couple of weeks or once a month. The device folks love to take network specialties.

Good luck.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by White Coat Investor »

I don't dare go to a drug dinner anymore. Who wants their name online as being on a drug company payroll? I'd rather buy my own dinner.
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toofache32
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by toofache32 »

EmergDoc wrote:Hilarious that this perception would be out there. While many might want to wine and dine docs, I don't see docs doing it very often at all. Most of the docs in my group drive a non-luxury SUV, a Prius, or a Leaf. Not exactly big spenders. Sure, we can afford to travel, eat out, and buy some luxuries. But the lifestyle isn't what most people think it is.
I am also amazed that this perception still exists. One of my patients tried to talk me into renting her beach house for a weekend to host "my other doctor friends", obviously to get them to like the place and want to rent it also. I told her I needed to keep my money to pay my $9300 monthly loan repayments. I wish I had a photo of the look on her face.
HIinvestor
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by HIinvestor »

Well, I have relatives that are docs and others who are dentists. The one who is a two-doc couple is the richest by a large margin, but he is also quite astute in investments and a great saver plus will have a guaranteed pension; he drives mostly older vehicles and recently a Nissan Leaf because he can park it for free at the airport (he flies a lot for work); they work because they enjoy it (could probably retire any time they chose). One who is a one-doc family is the one who has nice, new status cars--BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc., lives in a gated community & is country club member; he works to pay his bills and because he likes patients and the other docs (but hates EHR & all the paperwork). The dentists are doing OK but one has a 2nd business and one is mostly comfortable because of a very nice inheritance.

None of them do "wining and dinng" as part of their jobs. In the past, before laws retricted what pharma could fund, there were a LOT of meals offered with pharmaceutical companies, including some trips and even a Mardi Gras cruise with MD & spouse. The two-doc family would be very selective and only attend if they liked the restaurant AND had interest in the topic of discussion. Not clear that the dentists have had wining and dining--at least none they've mentioned to us.
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by texasdiver »

My wife is a family doc for a public clinic network. We do zero of it.

What I do see to some extent in this fairly traditional southern town is that a lot of the wives of the older more established docs tend to do a lot of country club type socializing with the other "movers and shakers" in town. They always pop up at the same social events and fundraisers and get their photos in the local social pages. But that has nothing to do with promoting the medical practice and everything to do with older upper class culture and social climbing in a medium sized southern city. It's mostly the older folks who do this, I don't see many young couples bothering.
DTSC
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by DTSC »

No wining and dining here. Never mind the money, who has time?
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LowER
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by LowER »

DTSC wrote:No wining and dining here. Never mind the money, who has time?
+1
protagonist
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by protagonist »

blu9535 wrote:In a recent thread, a surgeon referred to:
the "wining and dining" that is integral to the medical community.

As an outsider (with some friends in the medical community), I'm interested in this. Do others of you who are doctors/surgeons/etc see this too, as a sort of cultural necessity of being a doctor or surgeon?
No.

I certainly never did.

It all boils down to how much you are respected professionally.

If colleagues respect your work, it hardly matters what else you do. And if they don't, no amount of wining and dining will compensate for that.
stoptothink
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by stoptothink »

Not a physician, but most of my work colleagues are (health director for a large public organization). This is something I have heard a few times on this board; physicians buying a luxury car because it was "good for their career" or wining and dining is expected... I personally know the large majority of the physicians in my county, couldn't telly you what a single one drives, I have no clue how a patient would know or care or why a referring colleague (me) would either. Similar with wining and dining, not sure how it could help or hinder a career. For someone with that level of income, I could see how it would be expected socially, but I don't understand why the medical field would be any different in this respect than any other high-paying professional field.
protagonist
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by protagonist »

stoptothink wrote:For someone with that level of income, I could see how it would be expected socially, but I don't understand why the medical field would be any different in this respect than any other high-paying professional field.
It is different.

Perhaps partly because it is much more secure than most other "high-paying professional fields". Once you make it through med school, residency, fellowship your days of competition are, for the most part, over. You don't have to wine and dine. (Many do whine, but that is another topic entirely).

And because most physicians don't advertise.

And maybe because, when dealing with one's health and life and death, how good you are is much more important to others than the trimmings. I don't know.

Despite their staid reputations and public image, if you are good as a doctor you can pretty much do what you want, drive what you want, say what you want, be eccentric....your colleagues will say "she's a bit weird, but hell, she is dedicated and she is a good doctor- I recommend her".

At least that has been true wherever I have worked, in both academia and private practice.

The fact that there are doctors who buy fancy cars and jewelry and entertain for the purpose of impressing to "get ahead" proves nothing. Of course, there will always be people like that. And there are others who do it just because they like those things.
Last edited by protagonist on Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Set40
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by Set40 »

Not sure this forum is a good sample set of the general physician population.
protagonist
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by protagonist »

Set40 wrote:Not sure this forum is a good sample set of the general physician population.
Why?

The only thing I think most doctors really have in common is that they are highly driven. They are a much more diverse set (politically, socially, etc) than stereotypes would imply. And there are plenty of people frequenting this forum who love their Rolexes and Teslas..... also way more than stereotypes might imply.
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by EddyB »

EmergDoc wrote:Hilarious that this perception would be out there. While many might want to wine and dine docs, I don't see docs doing it very often at all. Most of the docs in my group drive a non-luxury SUV, a Prius, or a Leaf. Not exactly big spenders. Sure, we can afford to travel, eat out, and buy some luxuries. But the lifestyle isn't what most people think it is.
But the quote was from someone who at least claims to be a surgeon. Perhaps he meant something other than the courting of business that this thread has largely assumed.
SGM
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by SGM »

Wining and dining is not necessary professionally in medicine unless you are a specialist who is not busy. Relationships develop via the shared interest in doing what is best for the patient. After all if you did not have that interest and did not communicate well with other physicians there could be bad outcomes and less referrals.

In industry I found that wining and dining was very helpful in improving effectiveness and furthering careers. I have lots of examples of how wining and dining helped, but I will just state one. An instrument company went out of business on Thursday. All employees found jobs on Friday at an association shrimp boil. Wining and dining was not necessary at all in medicine and most physicians are too busy for it. Being polite, friendly, communicative, competent and professional seemed to go a long way in medicine.
Tonen
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by Tonen »

The three criteria for a successful specialist practice in decending order of importance.....
Availability
Affability
Ability

Nobody has time for wining and dining for work purposes, though on average probably "play hard" when it comes to wining and dining in family and friends time.
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blu9535
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Re: "Wining and dining" in medical community

Post by blu9535 »

EddyB wrote:But the quote was from someone who at least claims to be a surgeon. Perhaps he meant something other than the courting of business that this thread has largely assumed.
I think another piece of this might be that the surgeon in question is self-described as:
a surgical specialist making around $5xx,xxx per year.
Might be a higher amount of money than others who are chiming in here, and maybe that matters.
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