Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I am wondering what happens when a driver, who was not specifically spelled out at the rental car counter, drives a rental car. Recently we rented a car and I told them that I would be the only driver. That was the plan. An unexpected situation came up and my wife drove the car for a few miles (by herself...no one else in the car). Nothing happened and that's the end of the story. But if she had an accident or moving violation, what would have happened? Wife is on our family car insurance policy. And she's a licensed driver and I did authorize her to drive the rental car. Certainly this is not something one should knowingly do, but what happens in this case? EDIT: I have a Discover Escape credit card that I use for renting cars, as it has "primary" collision damage wavier coverage. So at least for me, there is no coverage being purchased from the rental car company. I would assume that even if this is purchased from them, an accident by a driver not specifically on the rental contract would not be covered. But I'm more concerned about the bigger issues of liability to another party and extensive (beyond my regular car insurance deductible) damage to the rental car.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I don't know for sure, but I would think that if the rental car had some problem that caused an unauthorized driver to hurt themselves, that the unauthorized driver would have a harder time with a lawsuit against the rental car company. As far as the rental car company getting money out of the client, I don't think that they would get any more money than they would if an authorized driver was driving.
When I rented a car for business, I knew all my business colleagues were authorized drivers whether they were listed at the rental counter or not. Sometimes one colleague would pick up the car and I would drop it off or vice versa. We never had any issues with different drivers.
As for damage to the rental car, you or your insurance are going to pay no matter who is driving the car. The rental car company never pays for any damages to cars or anything else caused by drivers.
When I rented a car for business, I knew all my business colleagues were authorized drivers whether they were listed at the rental counter or not. Sometimes one colleague would pick up the car and I would drop it off or vice versa. We never had any issues with different drivers.
As for damage to the rental car, you or your insurance are going to pay no matter who is driving the car. The rental car company never pays for any damages to cars or anything else caused by drivers.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I have rented in a few cases where spouses were automatically added.
Others have required paying a fee.
Others have required paying a fee.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I don't know, but I'm guessing you cannot authorize her to drive the rental car, since it's not your car. The rental car company doesn't delegate that authority to you. So the coverage on the car, regardless of what source it came from, would be similar to what you'd have if your wife had stolen the car. Most policies and coverages (whether purchased with the car rental, or a feature of your credit card, or part of your own vehicle insurance) probably won't cover you if you're operating a car without authorization - so I'm guessing you'd need to pay the full amount of any damage or personal injury.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Here's a page from Hertz on Authorized operators that seems to suggest that renter's spouse is an authorized operator if the rental originated in Californiaor Iowa. You may need to check the rental terms for your state and your rental company:
https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/reservat ... OAG=MSPT11
https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/reservat ... OAG=MSPT11
Authorized Operators are:
- The employer, employee or fellow employee of renter on company business, (when booking includes company Corporate Discount Number).
- The renter's spouse for rentals that originate in California or or Iowa.
- Authorized Operators do not have to be present at time of rental.
- There are no fees for Authorized Operators.
Additional Authorized Operators
- Individuals not automatically covered on the Rental Agreement as Authorized Operators noted above may be signed on as an "Additional Authorized Operator" (AAO). AAO's must be present and may be signed on to the rental agreement at the time of rental or during the rental at any US corporate location.
- Renter and each AAO must be present to sign Rental Agreement, present an acceptable credit card or debit card (if renting city accepts debit cards) in their own name, or a current round-trip ticket (air, train or bus), show valid driver's license, and must be a minimum of 20 years of age. For those 20 through 24 the location's age differential will apply.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I don't know if they're "automatically" added but some companies may allow adding a spouse for no cost (Avis, Budget, Enterprise, and I believe grandfathered Alamo Insiders.) Some groups (AAA, AARP, etc.) also have some agreements that may allow free additional drivers - but only if the rental is booked with the correct rate code, which may not get you the cheapest rates. National may allow adding a spouse free if you're an Emerald Club member.McCharley wrote:I have rented in a few cases where spouses were automatically added.
Others have required paying a fee.
Also there are some state laws that may prohibit charges for additional drivers.
But the main point is that you have to research the issue before renting - not at the counter, or after.
Businesses may have booking codes with various rental car providers that include other company employees, but possibly not spouses, customers, or other non-employee co-workers.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
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Last edited by MoneyIsntEverything on Wed May 17, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I'm the original poster.?In my case the National rentacar agent specifically asked if there would be any other drivers and I specifically answered "no". I believe I COULD have added my wife but declined. So let's assume she is NOT automatically or otherwise authorized. What I'm trying to determine are the maximum consequences had she had a bad accident, versus if she was authorized to drive the car.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
If your wife was traveling with you, and there was no extra charge to have her listed as another driver "just in case", why did you say "no"?Leesbro63 wrote:I'm the original poster.?In my case the National rentacar agent specifically asked if there would be any other drivers and I specifically answered "no". I believe I COULD have added my wife but declined. So let's assume she is NOT automatically or otherwise authorized. What I'm trying to determine are the maximum consequences had she had a bad accident, versus if she was authorized to drive the car.
RM
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Because she was at the luggage and I was at the rental counter and expected to do all the driving. It was a mistake and I will be sure that both of us are at the rental counter in the future.ResearchMed wrote:If your wife was traveling with you, and there was no extra charge to have her listed as another driver "just in case", why did you say "no"?Leesbro63 wrote:I'm the original poster.?In my case the National rentacar agent specifically asked if there would be any other drivers and I specifically answered "no". I believe I COULD have added my wife but declined. So let's assume she is NOT automatically or otherwise authorized. What I'm trying to determine are the maximum consequences had she had a bad accident, versus if she was authorized to drive the car.
RM
I'm still looking for the worst case consequences.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
If you have Hertz Gold Plus, your spouse or domestic partner is automatically covered as an authorized driver at no additional charge.
https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/member/e ... 12000314:s
https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/member/e ... 12000314:s
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I'm not in this field but I believe the renter would be 100% liable to the rental car company for the cost of repairs, loss of income and diminished value of the rental car if the car were damaged.
Here is National's additional driver policy from their website. Note that none of these "requirements" are required for the states listed at the end, where a spouse is automatically authorized for no cost and no signature/presentation required assuming they meet renter requirements.
Here is National's additional driver policy from their website. Note that none of these "requirements" are required for the states listed at the end, where a spouse is automatically authorized for no cost and no signature/presentation required assuming they meet renter requirements.
What is National's additional driver policy?
· All additional drivers must meet all renter requirements.
· Must appear at the rental counter with the primary renter.
· Must present a valid driver's license.
· Must sign the rental agreement.
· An additional daily fee may apply for any Additional Drivers. Click Here
Note: State law in California, Illinois, Missouri, Nevada, Oregon, and Wisconsin allow the spouse to be an automatic authorized driver as long as renter qualifications are met
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
How is this any different than if the accident occurred with the proper authorized renter driving?JLJL wrote:I'm not in this field but I believe the renter would be 100% liable to the rental car company for the cost of repairs, loss of income and diminished value of the rental car if the car were damaged.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
That's my understanding - that insurance wouldn't pay for damages or injuries. You'd have to check the terms of your insurance.tibbitts wrote:I don't know, but I'm guessing you cannot authorize her to drive the rental car, since it's not your car. The rental car company doesn't delegate that authority to you. So the coverage on the car, regardless of what source it came from, would be similar to what you'd have if your wife had stolen the car. Most policies and coverages (whether purchased with the car rental, or a feature of your credit card, or part of your own vehicle insurance) probably won't cover you if you're operating a car without authorization - so I'm guessing you'd need to pay the full amount of any damage or personal injury.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
This may or may not help your situation, but we've found the lowest rates are nearly always from Enterprise through Costco, which includes spouse drivers PLUS a third driver at no additional cost.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
The next layer of this is: who ends up paying?
As far as I see, here are the levels of insurance, in decreasing order of potential responsibility:
Rental company eats it or has insurance
Credit card insures
Renter's wife's auto policy covers
Renter's auto policy covers
Umbrella insurance covers
Renter's credit card covers -- is this what happens?!?
As far as I see, here are the levels of insurance, in decreasing order of potential responsibility:
Rental company eats it or has insurance
Credit card insures
Renter's wife's auto policy covers
Renter's auto policy covers
Umbrella insurance covers
Renter's credit card covers -- is this what happens?!?
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Did you have any kind of coverage for liability, collision, etc. through any source? (as tibbitts said). I wouldn't count on it covering if it were not an authorized driver who got in the accident. Assume it was a 3rd party other than your wife, I suppose you might sue them for negligent driving.Leesbro63 wrote:How is this any different than if the accident occurred with the proper authorized renter driving?JLJL wrote:I'm not in this field but I believe the renter would be 100% liable to the rental car company for the cost of repairs, loss of income and diminished value of the rental car if the car were damaged.
If you rent a car, don't let an unauthorized driver drive it. If they do, make sure they don't crash. Which brings us back to step 1.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Don't most auto policies cover you if you are driving anyone else's car? I always decline the rental companies insurance charges because they're stunningly overpriced, I believe, and I'm covered under my own policy. If my wife drives it, so is she, as far as I know.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
JLJL (two posts above) I get that. It's foolish to take such risks. It's just not clear to me exactly what the risk is.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Yes. It's just not clear if I'm jeopardizing that coverage by not getting my wife authorized by the rental company. It would SEEM to me that if we maintain car insurance, they should cover her for any car she drives. But the question here is whether that coverage is void if she drives a car without authorization by the rental company (but is authorized by the renter so it not the same thing as if she stole the car).Boglegrappler wrote:Don't most auto policies cover you if you are driving anyone else's car? I always decline the rental companies insurance charges because they're stunningly overpriced, I believe, and I'm covered under my own policy. If my wife drives it, so is she, as far as I know.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Rented a car for a week from Alamo in Vermont, did not think to add my wife to the contract.
Five days later, she backs into a parked car, damage to the rental was $1200. GEICO paid $700, AMEX picked up the deductible of $500 and all was good. No one asked about my wife's use of the car.
Five days later, she backs into a parked car, damage to the rental was $1200. GEICO paid $700, AMEX picked up the deductible of $500 and all was good. No one asked about my wife's use of the car.
"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." H.G. Wells
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
The difference is that even a damage waiver purchased from the rental car company won't cover you. A credit card possibly wouldn't, because most cover a rental car you're operating, not a car you rent but an unauthorized driver is operating. Having had experience damaging rental cars, I know the documentation required is very specific. How carefully it's verified, I can't say.Leesbro63 wrote:How is this any different than if the accident occurred with the proper authorized renter driving?JLJL wrote:I'm not in this field but I believe the renter would be 100% liable to the rental car company for the cost of repairs, loss of income and diminished value of the rental car if the car were damaged.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
This might be a question to ask your insurance (and preferably get the answer in writing).Leesbro63 wrote:
Yes. It's just not clear if I'm jeopardizing that coverage by not getting my wife authorized by the rental company. It would SEEM to me that if we maintain car insurance, they should cover her for any car she drives. But the question here is whether that coverage is void if she drives a car without authorization by the rental company (but is authorized by the renter so it not the same thing as if she stole the car).
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Except that the renter has no standing to authorize another person to use the car, so I'm not sure that's a consideration.Leesbro63 wrote:Yes. It's just not clear if I'm jeopardizing that coverage by not getting my wife authorized by the rental company. It would SEEM to me that if we maintain car insurance, they should cover her for any car she drives. But the question here is whether that coverage is void if she drives a car without authorization by the rental company (but is authorized by the renter so it not the same thing as if she stole the car).Boglegrappler wrote:Don't most auto policies cover you if you are driving anyone else's car? I always decline the rental companies insurance charges because they're stunningly overpriced, I believe, and I'm covered under my own policy. If my wife drives it, so is she, as far as I know.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I've always been told by insurance reps:TravelGeek wrote:This might be a question to ask your insurance (and preferably get the answer in writing).Leesbro63 wrote:
Yes. It's just not clear if I'm jeopardizing that coverage by not getting my wife authorized by the rental company. It would SEEM to me that if we maintain car insurance, they should cover her for any car she drives. But the question here is whether that coverage is void if she drives a car without authorization by the rental company (but is authorized by the renter so it not the same thing as if she stole the car).
1. we can't answer hypothetical questions;
2. if we did answer hypothetical questions, in writing or otherwise, our answers wouldn't be binding.
In other words, all that matters is the contract.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Agreed. But the driver, in this case my wife, might or might not know that I didn't have the power to authorize her to drive the rental car. Yet she has a contract thru our regular car insurance company to cover her driving any car. Yeah, I aasume if she steals a car, she's not covered, but I'm not even sure about that. But this isn't a case of driving a stolen car...it's a case where she mistakenly assumed she was authorized by me...with neither of us understanding that I was not authorized to authorize her! I'm really not trying to nitpick...just trying to understand the actual consequences of this scenario.tibbitts wrote:Except that the renter has no standing to authorize another person to use the car, so I'm not sure that's a consideration.Leesbro63 wrote:Yes. It's just not clear if I'm jeopardizing that coverage by not getting my wife authorized by the rental company. It would SEEM to me that if we maintain car insurance, they should cover her for any car she drives. But the question here is whether that coverage is void if she drives a car without authorization by the rental company (but is authorized by the renter so it not the same thing as if she stole the car).Boglegrappler wrote:Don't most auto policies cover you if you are driving anyone else's car? I always decline the rental companies insurance charges because they're stunningly overpriced, I believe, and I'm covered under my own policy. If my wife drives it, so is she, as far as I know.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
There are basically two situations
1) You or your wife have an insurance policy that will cover your wife even if she is not an authorized driver (insurance includes auto policy, credit card coverage, etc.).
2) You or your wife do not have an insurance policy that will cover your wife even if she is not an authorized driver (insurance includes auto policy, credit card coverage, etc.).
What insurance covers depends on the insurance contract (and any relevant state law or regulation). Discussing what it might say or what someone regards as logical does not really matter. What matters is the legally binding terms.
1) You or your wife have an insurance policy that will cover your wife even if she is not an authorized driver (insurance includes auto policy, credit card coverage, etc.).
2) You or your wife do not have an insurance policy that will cover your wife even if she is not an authorized driver (insurance includes auto policy, credit card coverage, etc.).
What insurance covers depends on the insurance contract (and any relevant state law or regulation). Discussing what it might say or what someone regards as logical does not really matter. What matters is the legally binding terms.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Yeah, I guess it does boil down to that. It's fairly obvious that any coverage purchased at the rental car counter would be void if they knew the car was driven by someone not on the contract. And it's probable but not quite as clear that any credit card perk coverage would also be denied. My guess is that for the big liability dollars, which would revert back to our regular car insurance, the claim would have to be paid. But that's not 100% clear either. I did just read my own policy and it's not clear to me. It's certainly not a risk worth taking.
Again, I will be absolutely certain to never get into this situation again and fortunately nothing happened this time. But I still think this was a good exercise in groupthink to talk out what would be the consequences if an unauthorized driver wrecked a rental car and perhaps even hurt someone else.
Again, I will be absolutely certain to never get into this situation again and fortunately nothing happened this time. But I still think this was a good exercise in groupthink to talk out what would be the consequences if an unauthorized driver wrecked a rental car and perhaps even hurt someone else.
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Here's a related question: How does the rental car company know that a customer has underlying car insurance? Put differently, why would any company rent a car to someone without being sure that they have insurance to cover their vehicle? I've never been asked to see my policy or to see even a proof of insurance card. They do require a credit card, but for most customers, the available credit wouldn't be enough to cover a rental car replacement let alone any damage caused to a third party. Perhaps when they check your driver's license there is a database linked to state computers that verifies coverage? I'd guess not, because I've been renting cars since long before this current era of instant data and was never asked to show proof of insurance. And even that is weak...if I cancel my insurance, it might take weeks or months for the state to find out. Common sense would suggest that it all boils down to the creditworthiness of the renter. But again I don't think they check credit and their small hurdle of having a major credit card means very little in terms of overall ability to pay $30,000 to pay for a totaled vehicle.
Just wondering.
EDIT: I read my policy and it says that I need to carry collision coverage for my regular car to have collision coverage extended to a rental car. That being said, many Bogleheads drive older cars and don't carry collision coverage. Similarly, many lower income drivers can only afford older cars and only buy the most basic (liability only) insurance. So this brings up a number of issues: 1. How does the rental car company know that you do or don't have collision coverage, even if you do have "insurance", that would extend to their car? 2. How does the renter even know that he has only liability coverage for the rental car? 3. Does CDW coverage purchased at the counter or via some credit card perk cover the full value of the car if there is no underlying collision coverage? Yeah, I guess number 3 depends on the fine print but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even think to check.
Just wondering.
EDIT: I read my policy and it says that I need to carry collision coverage for my regular car to have collision coverage extended to a rental car. That being said, many Bogleheads drive older cars and don't carry collision coverage. Similarly, many lower income drivers can only afford older cars and only buy the most basic (liability only) insurance. So this brings up a number of issues: 1. How does the rental car company know that you do or don't have collision coverage, even if you do have "insurance", that would extend to their car? 2. How does the renter even know that he has only liability coverage for the rental car? 3. Does CDW coverage purchased at the counter or via some credit card perk cover the full value of the car if there is no underlying collision coverage? Yeah, I guess number 3 depends on the fine print but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even think to check.
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
This is an interesting question. Looking forward to the answer!
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
The companies have the relevant data on accident rate, costs, ability to collect from renters, etc. They charge enough to make a profit even if they have to eat some costs because they can't collect from some renters. They're large enough to self-insure (although they may have excess insurance).How does the rental car company know that a customer has underlying car insurance? Put differently, why would any company rent a car to someone without being sure that they have insurance to cover their vehicle?
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
CDW/LDW purchased from the rental car company is primary and unlimited - it covers the full price of the car and your own insurance is not involved, regardless of what coverage you have. Coverage is applied so long as the basic conditions are met (no unauthorized use of the vehicle - offroad, etc.)Leesbro63 wrote:Here's a related question: How does the rental car company know that a customer has underlying car insurance? Put differently, why would any company rent a car to someone without being sure that they have insurance to cover their vehicle? I've never been asked to see my policy or to see even a proof of insurance card. They do require a credit card, but for most customers, the available credit wouldn't be enough to cover a rental car replacement let alone any damage caused to a third party. Perhaps when they check your driver's license there is a database linked to state computers that verifies coverage? I'd guess not, because I've been renting cars since long before this current era of instant data and was never asked to show proof of insurance. And even that is weak...if I cancel my insurance, it might take weeks or months for the state to find out. Common sense would suggest that it all boils down to the creditworthiness of the renter. But again I don't think they check credit and their small hurdle of having a major credit card means very little in terms of overall ability to pay $30,000 to pay for a totaled vehicle.
Just wondering.
EDIT: I read my policy and it says that I need to carry collision coverage for my regular car to have collision coverage extended to a rental car. That being said, many Bogleheads drive older cars and don't carry collision coverage. Similarly, many lower income drivers can only afford older cars and only buy the most basic (liability only) insurance. So this brings up a number of issues: 1. How does the rental car company know that you do or don't have collision coverage, even if you do have "insurance", that would extend to their car? 2. How does the renter even know that he has only liability coverage for the rental car? 3. Does CDW coverage purchased at the counter or via some credit card perk cover the full value of the car if there is no underlying collision coverage? Yeah, I guess number 3 depends on the fine print but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even think to check.
Credit card coverage is usually secondary but sometimes primary (business cards, but only when rental is for business, United Explorer, etc.) If you don't have collision coverage of your own, secondary credit card coverage will pay the full value of the car, with the usual exclusions (luxury cars, for example.)
In both cases, although more in the case of credit card coverage, there may also be some odd exclusions, such as if the vehicle is stolen but you don't have possession of the car keys, or non-collision damage (theft of wheels, but not the entire car, for example.) But overall, coverage from the rental car company is superior to any other coverage - and for the price, it should be.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I do not own a car and therefore do not have any sort of insurance. Occasionally however (once every 2 months or so), i hop the bus to the airport and rent from Enterprise. They always ask who my car insurance company is and i tell them i don't have any insurance and i will use what is included with my credit card. This seems to satisfy them.
I do, however, buy the liability insurance (ie, damage to other people and/or their property) as i don't believe any of my card-included insurance includes 3'rd party liability protection. It adds about $7/day to the cost. The "total loss" insurance that they try to push on you which will cover any sort of damage to the vehicle, and that i am using my credit cards to cover, add's about $16/day.
I do, however, buy the liability insurance (ie, damage to other people and/or their property) as i don't believe any of my card-included insurance includes 3'rd party liability protection. It adds about $7/day to the cost. The "total loss" insurance that they try to push on you which will cover any sort of damage to the vehicle, and that i am using my credit cards to cover, add's about $16/day.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
A relative of mine lives in NYC and frequently rents cars, but does not own one. For that reason, as well as to qualify for umbrella insurance, has a "non-owned automobile insurance" policy. The premium is relatively cheap. From what he said, he could not qualify to even buy the umbrella coverage without that underlying non-owned auto coverage.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Isn't the whole point of offering up various options, including the notion of authorizing drivers, all about another way the rental companies can charge you some fee?
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
As long time Hertz Gold member who has rented cars at airports throughout country can confirm that spouse is authorized driver. Just rented car from Enterprise in Florida for next week, their contract also states that spouse or domestic partner is authorized driver if had permission of renter. Suspect this is a non issue as to spouses and domestic partners.
Last edited by jdb on Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Yes.boroc7 wrote:Isn't the whole point of offering up various options, including the notion of authorizing drivers, all about another way the rental companies can charge you some fee?
Also, of course, all the rules provide easy justification for denying claims should you ever violate any of the terms of the contract.
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
USAA requires “express or implied permission” to operate the vehicle in order to qualify for liability. Could be an expensive mistake if your wife maims a surgeon.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
Or if you rent using some specific credit cards (i.e. Costco Visa) other 'designated' individuals are covered at no additional charge.jlawrence01 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:06 pm If you have Hertz Gold Plus, your spouse or domestic partner is automatically covered as an authorized driver at no additional charge.
https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/member/e ... 12000314:s
From card's 'Guide to Beneifts'.....
WHO’S COVERED
You and any authorized driver designated or listed on the rental car
agreement, with a valid driver’s license.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
This topic ended six years ago, FYI.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I asked my insurance agent about this. He said that the auto insurance we carry with State Farm covers each of us when driving a rental car. He said to decline any attempt by the rental company to charge a fee for adding one spouse or the other to the rental agreement.
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Re: Rental Car Driver Not Authorized
I hate it when that happens!
snackdog, this is your fault.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!