Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

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5pak
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Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by 5pak »

I've just started my post-college years and I'm in an administrative job. I'm not making much, but I'm getting great experience and hope to, within 2015, move to a job that pays at least $70k. What's important to me is to make a certain minimum of cash while making my resume awesome because with five years supervisory experience in my field, I can get a job pretty much anywhere and be paid well with very little stress.

Five years from now, when I've got the years of experience I'll need (or four since I already have one), I'm considering moving abroad with a close friend of mine. I don't want to just go touring and spending a lot of money being an American afield. I'm hoping to actually move and work and live abroad for however long I feel like it. Most likely, the area will be France or Germany or Italy; somewhere in Europe.

I'd like some advice on the best ways to prepare in the coming years. I know some of the obvious: save, learn the language and customs, save, do your research, save, etc. Any advice?

Some additional information:

I've already started investing with Vanguard with both a retirement and nonretirement account. I have a Targeted Retirement Fund in a Roth IRA and have just this month begun contributing to the Vanguard S&P 500 Index Fund. I plan to let my IRA accumulate on its own once it hits a certain point and to continue contributing perpetually to my nonretirement fund portfolio (I do not yet have the money to start contributing to bonds or other assets but that will likely come in 2015). I don't know yet how a move would effect them.

I'm also not sure yet how difficult getting work will be in terms of legal problems. By that point, I will have access to better connections, a stronger resume, and a wide range of skills that will make me worth hiring in my field, but as I'll be moving from the US to an EU nation, I don't know what to expect as far as difficulties getting work permits/living permits/etc.
Valuethinker
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

5pak wrote:
I'm also not sure yet how difficult getting work will be in terms of legal problems. By that point, I will have access to better connections, a stronger resume, and a wide range of skills that will make me worth hiring in my field, but as I'll be moving from the US to an EU nation, I don't know what to expect as far as difficulties getting work permits/living permits/etc.
The doors have slammed down very hard, even in the UK. With c. 25% youth unemployment in Europe (50% in Spain) no one is in a hurry to take more immigrants, in fact anti-immigrant parties are a feature of most national politics. And most countries don't give young people jobs per se, but short term contracts (thus avoiding the European problem of that it's difficult or impossible to fire someone who is an employee, plus large redundancy costs). There's a reason London is flooded with young Greeks, Italians and Spaniards, with university degrees, working in coffee shops and bars. And it's something like the 5th or 6th largest French speaking city in the world right now.

In fact the Home Secretary, Theresa May, just made headlines this week by announcing that people who do degrees in the UK, will have to return to their home countries to apply for working visas. The government is over on its targets for immigration (because it can't block citizens of EU states from coming to the UK) and so it is cracking down on non EU foreigners. Immigration is *the* third rail issue of this election (May 2015) with the major parties scrambling to 'out tough' each other. Meanwhile in France Marie Le Pen (let's be honest and call her a fascist) is polling 20%+ of the vote on the next Presidential election.

There are arrangements for those under 26 I believe, if you still qualify.

To be honest, this is going to be your big problem right there. I'd get on on finding what the rules are and the opportunities for different countries.
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5pak
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by 5pak »

Valuethinker wrote: The doors have slammed down very hard, even in the UK.

To be honest, this is going to be your big problem right there. I'd get on on finding what the rules are and the opportunities for different countries.
That has been my biggest concern. I've looked into the basics of immigration to an EU country, and what I've seen has told me that nothing short of money and very very in vogue skill sets will do it (or working for an international company). Hence my desire for a strong work history. A sponsorship would be the easiest way for me to secure a living. I'm already 25, so I'll be over 26 by the time this is all relevant.
Random Poster
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Random Poster »

I'd think that your best bet is to either (i) marry an EU citizen and then move to the EU; or (ii) work for a multi-national in their US office(s) and somehow work your way into an expat position.

Good luck.

As an aside, why Europe? It has been a while since I looked at it, but getting a working holiday visa for either New Zealand or Australia wasn't too difficult (if you are the right age) and can be the springboard to more permanent activities.
navyitaly
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by navyitaly »

I am in the US Navy living in Italy so I know the deal.

You aren't going to be able to get a job in Italy and a sojourners permit as an American. You would be better off as others say get married to a EU citizen and apply for a sojourners permit and maybe If you knew Italian you could get a job...English won't help you here unless you want to work at the Disney Store, McDonalds, or the Hilton.

Or go on usajobs.gov look for US DoD or State Dept civilian jobs in Gemany or Italy and apply for a GS job w relocation. You can then stay here up to 5 years and Uncle Sam pays all bills...

Otherwise forget it...you are a tourist and going home...besides do you really want to pay $10 per gallon for gas and Italian or any EU country taxes..no you don't...stick to GS route.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Epsilon Delta »

If any of your parents or grandparents was an immigrant it could be worth exploring if you are entitled citizenship by descent from their native country. Dual citizenship in any EU country will give you privileges other EU countries, often including an unrestricted right to live and work there.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by sperry8 »

Epsilon Delta wrote:If any of your parents or grandparents was an immigrant it could be worth exploring if you are entitled citizenship by descent from their native country. Dual citizenship in any EU country will give you privileges other EU countries, often including an unrestricted right to live and work there.
+1. For example if your grandfather was from Italy you can get an Italian Visa. It's only for paternal lines and you will need your relatives birth certificate.

An alternate way is to buy a home in Greece, Spain or Portugal. Greece is currently at 250,000 Euros and the other two countries are at 500,000 Euros. You may not have this amount - but if and when you do, you can buy a home in those countries and you'll get a long term visa from them.
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navyitaly
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by navyitaly »

My son was born in Italy....he is a US citizen by birth...has an Italian birth certificate...he can't get a visa here once we move back..its more complicated than that...and you still have to pay USA taxes...and Italian taxes stink.
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5pak
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by 5pak »

Thanks for the first hand experiences everyone. These definitely help me out and will make planning a lot easier.

To answer some suggestions: the "grandfather clause" is out. I've got no immigration in my recent family line. But I do work with the government (public servant level). So, getting work through the US government may be a possibility, especially if my next job state side happens to be with the fed rather than a school (which is still up in the air).

To answer Random Poster's question of why Europe, it's more of a personal history thing, so I won't really go into it. The basics are that a close friend of mine is of European descent and wants to return there for a stay instead of a visit, while I want to find an opportunity to leave the States for a time. We have both been trying to coordinate living together for a while now and this is a longer term plan we've been discussing. Also, in case you were wondering, my friend does have some recent Sicilian ancestry, but he's relying more on his ability to get a work permit or work through a company to travel rather than his ancestry.

France was our original target, but Italy came in because of his ancestry and Germany because of its economy and location. France is still the highest on the list at the moment.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by snowman »

I have to echo what other posters said – you will not be able to find a job on your own in EU. While it’s possible to get (illegal) minimum wage job almost anywhere in the world, even that would be next to impossible in EU as you would be competing with cheap labor from Eastern Europe. Given your education and salary potential here in the States, that possibility makes no sense to me.

The only realistic option in my mind is to try to get a job with a multinational company here in the States, and work on getting expat assignment in Europe. I don’t know about your friend, but he (she) is on the same boat as you are, unless s/he can become a citizen of EU. If that were an option, you could marry, and get a work permit that way.

Honestly, I don’t see your plan of moving to Europe and get a work permit as realistic, whether now or in 5 years.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by TheTimeLord »

Pack lots of ice.
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dgdevil
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by dgdevil »

navyitaly wrote:My son was born in Italy....he is a US citizen by birth...has an Italian birth certificate...he can't get a visa here once we move back..its more complicated than that...and you still have to pay USA taxes...and Italian taxes stink.
Italy is "jus sanguinis" - which sucks in his case, but is great for people around the world with Italian blood (and lots of patience).

OP, definitely research youth work visas handed out quite easily among countries on a reciprocal basis. Not sure what European options there are for Americans, but you could definitely start over Down Under tomorrow, almost.

PS. I did the research for you. Your only European option for a so-called working holiday is Ireland, which is not the worst place on the planet to get your feet wet:

http://www.gooverseas.com/blog/american ... iday-visas
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

snowman wrote:I have to echo what other posters said – you will not be able to find a job on your own in EU. While it’s possible to get (illegal) minimum wage job almost anywhere in the world, even that would be next to impossible in EU as you would be competing with cheap labor from Eastern Europe. Given your education and salary potential here in the States, that possibility makes no sense to me.

The only realistic option in my mind is to try to get a job with a multinational company here in the States, and work on getting expat assignment in Europe. I don’t know about your friend, but he (she) is on the same boat as you are, unless s/he can become a citizen of EU. If that were an option, you could marry, and get a work permit that way.

Honestly, I don’t see your plan of moving to Europe and get a work permit as realistic, whether now or in 5 years.
If you work illegally in an EU state and get caught, then you might be banned from entering EU for life-- that violation will sit on the computers of all the border agencies (and I have no doubt in time we will have a Federal border force) for all of time. You want to think about that carefully before doing it. No statute of limitations.

For somebody from Belarus or Ukraine what choice do they have? They can't stay home. But for an American?
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

dgdevil wrote:
navyitaly wrote:My son was born in Italy....he is a US citizen by birth...has an Italian birth certificate...he can't get a visa here once we move back..its more complicated than that...and you still have to pay USA taxes...and Italian taxes stink.
Italy is "jus sanguinis" - which sucks in his case, but is great for people around the world with Italian blood (and lots of patience).

OP, definitely research youth work visas handed out quite easily among countries on a reciprocal basis. Not sure what European options there are for Americans, but you could definitely start over Down Under tomorrow, almost.

PS. I did the research for you. Your only European option for a so-called working holiday is Ireland, which is not the worst place on the planet to get your feet wet:

http://www.gooverseas.com/blog/american ... iday-visas
If I was OP and I really wanted to be in Europe, I'd consider grabbing that youth visa opportunity. Ireland is tough: high unemployment, lots of competition from Latvians, Lithuanians etc. But it should be perfectly possible to get a job in Dublin, then work way up to an office job. Learn Irish and they might give you citizenship ;-).

The UK may exit the EU after 2016/17. There must be at least a 40% chance. That's worth considering if they want to come to the UK.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
bcjb
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by bcjb »

With your qualifications/experience, it will be very difficult to get a job with an EU employer, especially while you're outside the country. The EU recently implemented the "Blue card" for highly-skilled workers (advanced degrees, engineers,..). That program isn't working well at all -- a few member states have yet to comply with it and even in countries where it works well, many blue card work visas have gone to foreigners who are already in the country. Still, that's the best path to a work visa, and you don't seem to qualify.

Also, things may change in the next few years, but I'd recommend e.g. Germany or Austria over your stated favorite (France). You'll have to go where the jobs are, and France is not looking good right now.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

bcjb wrote:With your qualifications/experience, it will be very difficult to get a job with an EU employer, especially while you're outside the country. The EU recently implemented the "Blue card" for highly-skilled workers (advanced degrees, engineers,..). That program isn't working well at all -- a few member states have yet to comply with it and even in countries where it works well, many blue card work visas have gone to foreigners who are already in the country. Still, that's the best path to a work visa, and you don't seem to qualify.

Also, things may change in the next few years, but I'd recommend e.g. Germany or Austria over your stated favorite (France). You'll have to go where the jobs are, and France is not looking good right now.
It is that complicated intersection between jobs and getting a visa.

The opportunities are certainly in Germany in terms of jobs. Austria I have reservations about (unless you want to work with the package ski industry; instructor I suspect is a closed shop like France and Switzerland) in that it seems a very 'tight' country where the jobs go to Austrians. Maybe not in Vienna though.

However I don't know which countries have the easiest visa rules. It's quite possible one might find say Sweden, or some place like Portugal (which has a horrific job market but still).
Leemiller
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Leemiller »

I was recruited for a job in Paris awhile back, this was for a US law firm with global offices. I have a friend who wants to move to Spain and run his US based recruiting business over there. No idea what permits or taxes would be like, but that is his goal anyways.
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5pak
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by 5pak »

Thanks for the feedback everyone. It's very thought provoking and definitely helps me understand the situation. It sounds like the EU as a whole is a maelstrom for American immigrants/workers. I think I'll let it go and try to convince my friend to give it up.

I appreciate all the outside views though!
Last edited by 5pak on Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
dgdevil
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by dgdevil »

Never give up. There's always a way. And you're only young once.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

dgdevil wrote:Never give up. There's always a way. And you're only young once.
This is good advice. But it speaks to trying earlier rather than later (in that for many countries, age counts against you). Such as the young person's visa.

A friend of mine with a successful consulting business, previous experience as a British military officer (with American clearances for nuclear weapons handling etc.), tried to move to USA in his 50s. Found it basically impossible, even before he tackled the healthcare issue. Australia and Canada use a points system and age really counts against you on that.

*Language* is often a key. Hence my only half-joking suggestion of learning Irish. Canada for example fluency in French is a big help on the points system. There may be other countries where this is also true.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

5pak wrote:Thanks for the feedback everyone. It's very thought provoking and definitely helps me understand the situation. It sounds like the EU as a whole is a hellhole for American immigrants/worker. I think I'll let it go and try to convince my friend to give it up.

I appreciate all the outside views though!
probably Americans have an easier time than say Indians or Chinese. But that doesn't mean it is easy.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by bagle »

I suggest you marry an EU citizen in order to avoid work permit problems. That's what I did (for love, not a job).
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Valuethinker »

bagle wrote:I suggest you marry an EU citizen in order to avoid work permit problems. That's what I did (for love, not a job).
And the UK at least they will interview you about this, and ask for proof (over to you as to what 'proves' your case to the Home Office that you married for love rather than economic opportunity). And if your spouse doesn't make enough money they *still* can't be resident in the UK. The whole thing has been designed in homage to Franz Kafka.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by cfs »

Moving from US to Europe

When I read the title the first thing that came to my mind was "oh my, this shipmate is selling all his US equities index funds and buying the European index fund."
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by FullYellowJacket »

The wife and I are planning on something similar; however, we are both engineers currently getting our Masters. I will likely be applying to go for my PhD, which is what I plan on using to getting us in the door. From all of our research, it seems like the countries with the most opportunity for english speaking foreigners are Germany, UK, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. Since this is for STEM careers I am not sure if it will be helpful to you.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by Flashes1 »

I might be missing something, but why doesn't the OP just find European employment with a large U.S. company? In case the OP hasn't read the WSJ for a few years, the EU is suffering thru a horrible recession.
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Re: Preparing for a big move (US to Europe)

Post by ladders11 »

Even in better times, good permanent European jobs required closer personal connections than American jobs, and would then have been even harder to get.

I don't think there is much chance for an American with the way laws and politics are in the EU now. Basically watch Green Card with Gérard Depardieu, put yourself in his shoes and reverse the countries. Or find out how to use your career to infiltrate a company that does business where you'd like to live and try to get them to move you there. It is disappointing because I might want to live and work in the EU but it does not seem possible.
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