Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

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siamond
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Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by siamond »

I was chatting with my wife about the fact that my grandfather's way of investing was actually pretty good (he picked large growth stocks, and just stuck to it for many years, hence avoiding any mutual fund fees and minimizing taxes; my mother kept going, simply blindly trusting what my grandfather had decided to do; she's 95 now). And the discussion shifted to something which has been hanging on the wall for many years and that I had not paid attention to for the past... 25 years maybe?

This appears to be an old bond issued by the Chinese government in 1914. Amusingly enough, it is therefore exactly 100 years old! Worth 500 French Francs at the time. Could it be that... it is actually worth something? At least as a collectible? How do I find that out?

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siamond
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by siamond »

Actually, doing more Web research, I found those bonds on sale as a collectible for 150 Euros... As a side note, the interest rate was 5%, not bad!

http://www.bonds-boutique.com/chine/emp ... 75612.html
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

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thenextguy
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by thenextguy »

I got a buddy that knows all about very old Chinese bonds. Do you mind if I call him down here to take a look at it?
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Haha, ok, Rick

(In case nobody else gets it)
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (collectible).
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by thenextguy »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:Haha, ok, Rick

(In case nobody else gets it)
:D
madbrain
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by madbrain »

siamond wrote: This appears to be an old bond issued by the Chinese government in 1914. Amusingly enough, it is therefore exactly 100 years old! Worth 500 French Francs at the time. Could it be that... it is actually worth something?[/img]
As a collectible, maybe, as you found out. But surely not the face value.
500 French francs of that time would have been "anciens francs" got devalued to 5 "nouveaux francs" in 1960 .
And then, when the euro happened, it took 6.55 French francs for one euro. So the face value would have been 0.76 euro.
However, French francs are no longer redeemable for euros since 2005 .
letsgobobby
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by letsgobobby »

Chinese government was overthrown in 1949. Doubt the Communists would honor this regardless.
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by Carson »

That is super cool!
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by HurdyGurdy »

Very interesting in many ways.

The page at http://www.bonds-boutique.com/chine/emp ... 75612.html has a picture of actual bond coupons.
Image


However, I keep thinking, given what was going on in China in 1914, who would buy 50 year Chinese bonds at 5%?
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French ebay has it for 80 Euros.
Coles
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by Coles »

letsgobobby wrote:Chinese government was overthrown in 1949. Doubt the Communists would honor this regardless.
Some nutjobs are still holding out hope.
http://stocks.ms/2009/07/30/1913chinesebonds/
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Archie Sinclair
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by Archie Sinclair »

letsgobobby wrote:Chinese government was overthrown in 1949. Doubt the Communists would honor this regardless.
But the Republic of China was not overthrown, it retreated to Taiwan. It still calls itself the Republic of China and it has a GDP of $517 billion.
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by HurdyGurdy »

Archie Sinclair wrote:the Republic of China was not overthrown, it retreated to Taiwan. It still calls itself the Republic of China and it has a GDP of $517 billion.
However, the top guy in 1914 was Yuan Shikai, no friend of Sun Yat Sen. In 1915 he crowned himself as a new emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_ ... 80%9316%29). None of the Chinas will have any sympathy for that guy. I wonder if the Republic of China (KMT) was paying any coupons to small bondholders even before 1949.
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by denovo »

Coles wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Chinese government was overthrown in 1949. Doubt the Communists would honor this regardless.
Some nutjobs are still holding out hope.
http://stocks.ms/2009/07/30/1913chinesebonds/

Reminds me of an interesting story. The Confederate States (South) issued bonds, many of which were purchased in Europe. For many years (up until WW1), there was a secondary market in Europe trading these bonds on the hope that the United States Government would honor them.*

*Apparently they never read the 14th Amendment S.4.
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by saladdin »

denovo wrote:
Coles wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:Chinese government was overthrown in 1949. Doubt the Communists would honor this regardless.
Some nutjobs are still holding out hope.
http://stocks.ms/2009/07/30/1913chinesebonds/

Reminds me of an interesting story. The Confederate States (South) issued bonds, many of which were purchased in Europe. For many years (up until WW1), there was a secondary market in Europe trading these bonds on the hope that the United States Government would honor them.*

*Apparently they never read the 14th Amendment S.4.
My favorite Civil War debt story. As US kids we are taught that West Virginia broke away from Virginia to form a new state. Now, granted it was probably illegal to form a new state the way they did Lincoln welcomed them into the Union. Well, after the war Supreme Court ruled West V owed Virginia $12,393,929.50. The final installment of this sum was paid in 1939.
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siamond
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by siamond »

Thanks for the feedback, everybody, this is quite fascinating.

Well, I shall follow my IPS... No International Bonds in my AA... It will stay hanging on the wall... :wink:
gloomydog
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by gloomydog »

About 15 years ago, my father sold his set of bond coupon to a collector for about 5K I believe. He doesn't remember the details anymore but both sides came off the deal happy. It has value to the right collector I believe. Also, his set was in chinese words.
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Re: Very old Chinese bond; worth anything?

Post by Easy Rhino »

despite the fact that both governments were overthrown after that bond was issued, that's still amazingly cool.
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