Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
dad2000
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by dad2000 »

I think we are looking for the Jack Bogle of auto manufacturing. He/she probably doesn't exist.

I am generally a fan of Elon Musk in that he is forcing other manufacturers to innovate, and seems to be interested in doing the right thing. Their cars are still a little pricey from a pure value standpoint, but they are making progress. Perhaps I'll consider one in 5 years.
Leesbro63
Posts: 10640
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:36 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Leesbro63 »

For what it's worth, CLARK HOWARD says that you can get a Nissan leaf very cheaply, after tax credits etc. And that they are in good supply. Not a bad alternative to the Tesla if you are a "value player".
Topic Author
countofmc
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by countofmc »

Leesbro63 wrote:For what it's worth, CLARK HOWARD says that you can get a Nissan leaf very cheaply, after tax credits etc. And that they are in good supply. Not a bad alternative to the Tesla if you are a "value player".
I'm more of an "old-tech" guy, not sure if an electric is right for me. I think a Prius is about as cutting-edge as I could stomach.
User avatar
fandango
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:44 pm
Location: Greater Atlanta area

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by fandango »

Before you Make a move to Toyota: remember the braking and surging problem that has been going on for years but has never been fully resolved.
Topic Author
countofmc
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by countofmc »

fandango wrote:Before you Make a move to Toyota: remember the braking and surging problem that has been going on for years but has never been fully resolved.
Toyotas are still suffering from these issues?!
User avatar
in_reality
Posts: 4529
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by in_reality »

countofmc wrote: From this article I linked:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/busin ... .html?_r=0

The excerpt:

"The danger of exploding air bags was not disclosed for years after the first reported incident in 2004, despite red flags — including three additional ruptures reported to Honda in 2007, according to interviews, regulatory filings and court records.

In each of the incidents, Honda settled confidential financial claims with people injured by the air bags, but the automaker did not issue a safety recall until late 2008, and then for only a small fraction — about 4,200 — of its vehicles eventually found to be equipped with the potentially explosive air bags.

The delays by both Honda and Takata in alerting the public about the defect — and later in Takata’s acknowledging it extended beyond a small group of Honda vehicles — meant other automakers like BMW, Toyota and Nissan were not aware of possible defects in their own vehicles for years, putting off their recalls. Only last month, Honda issued yet another recall of its own — its ninth for the defect — bringing to six million the total of recalled Honda and Acura vehicles."

These allegations seem pretty damning to me.
I don't mean to start a political discussion on the merits of regulation here but do want to point out that:

1) the reporting requirements do not seem adequate. This seems particularly true in light of the subcontracting being done which means components are used by any number of manufacturers who by themselves might have trouble spotting a pattern as opposed to an isolated incident.
same article for the NYT wrote:Honda filed a standard report on the initial air bag injury in 2004, and followed up with similar filings on the incidents in 2007. The form requires automakers to list the component — in this case, an air bag — that was responsible for an injury, but it does not allow for elaboration about the circumstances, like a rupture.
The article points out that federal investigators conducted an inquiry and concluded that there was "insufficient information" to suggest that the companies had failed to take timely action.

Well, it surely seems like more could have and should have been done. But where does the fault lie? If we have loose regulation and the expectation that companies will do more than they are required to do when reporting defects they don't understand fully, can we really expect things to get reported?

2) recalls aren't as effective as they could be. No law stipulates that used cars must have recall repairs made before being resold. The new owner won't get notification on a previous recall and if the previous owner ignored it, then bam. This is what happened in the 3rd reported death. The car in question had been recalled in 2009. So 33% of reported deaths in Honda's air bag fiasco could have been reported by a requirement that used cars have recall repairs made.

So personally I would be in favor of finding a way to (cheaply) make regulation more effective (without driving the cost of everything up). If all automakers have the same disclosure standards, I think things might be different. Even if someone in Honda had wanted to push for more disclosure than required, how could they get that approved within the company? I think it needs to be an across the board thing.

In any case, Honda alone is filing thousands and thousands of forms each year. There needs to be a better system in place to track these things, but asking the Gov. to implement it would probably just be a waste...
Last edited by in_reality on Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
TimeRunner
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:23 pm
Location: Beach-side, CA

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by TimeRunner »

deleted
Last edited by TimeRunner on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One cannot enlighten the unconscious. | "All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine." -Jeff Spicoli
kazper
Posts: 628
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:45 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by kazper »

I have reached the same conclusion but not because of the recall. My wife had paintc chipping on her newish honda. It was covered under warranty. Come to find out, they wouldn't pay for a rental car, and it would take a week to have it done. We paid for the rental and at the end of the week the car still is t done.

Great treatment of your customers, honda!
Keep It Simple
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Keep It Simple »

c078342 wrote: German cars are superior.
I needed a good laugh....that's a good one!

Wait...was he serious?????

K.I.S.
User avatar
munemaker
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:14 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by munemaker »

Keep It Simple wrote:
c078342 wrote: German cars are superior.
I needed a good laugh....that's a good one!

Wait...was he serious?????

K.I.S.
Just one look at the Consumer Reports auto issue will wake you up to the truth about what cars are superior.
User avatar
munemaker
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:14 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by munemaker »

dad2000 wrote:I think we are looking for the Jack Bogle of auto manufacturing. He/she probably doesn't exist.

I am generally a fan of Elon Musk in that he is forcing other manufacturers to innovate, and seems to be interested in doing the right thing. Their cars are still a little pricey from a pure value standpoint, but they are making progress. Perhaps I'll consider one in 5 years.
Could you give a couple examples of innovations that have been forced on to other manufacturers by Elon Musk? Just curious.

Thanks
Browser
Posts: 4857
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:54 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Browser »

MotorTrend lists six recalls on Honda CRV related to airbags, since 2004. Now add the 7th recall that I received yesterday. And that's only one Honda model. They've been well aware of problems over the last decade with these airbags, yet here we are having to stuff our passengers into the back seat so they aren't exposed to an IED in the front passenger seat. Something is way wrong here, folks. I'm sure Honda isn't the only auto company involved in this.
Recall Date JUN 07, 2004
Component AIR BAGS:FRONTAL
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 130617

Recall ID # 66885 - AIR BAGS
Recall Date FEB 11, 2010
Component AIR BAGS
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 379000

METAL FRAGMENTS COULD PASS THROUGH THE AIRBAG CUSHION MATERIAL POSSIBLY CAUSING INJURY OR FATALITY TO VEHICLE OCCUPANTS.

Recall ID # 66710 - AIR BAGS:FRONTAL:DRIVER SIDE INFLATOR MODULE
Recall Date APR 27, 2011
Component AIR BAGS:FRONTAL:DRIVER SIDE INFLATOR MODULE
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 1709477

IN THE EVENT OF A CRASH NECESSITATING DEPLOYMENT OF THE DRIVER'S AIR BAG, THE INFLATOR COULD PRODUCE EXCESSIVE INTERNAL PRESSURE THAT COULD CAUSE THE INFLATOR TO RUPTURE WITH METAL FRAGMENTS STRIKING AND INJURING THE DRIVER OR OTHER OCCUPANTS.

Recall ID # 96723 - AIR BAGS
Recall Date APR 11, 2013
Component AIR BAGS
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 561422

In the event of a crash necessitating deployment of the passenger's frontal air bag, the inflator could rupture with metal fragments striking and potentially seriously injuring the passenger seat occupant or other occupants.

Recall ID # 104380 - AIR BAGS
Recall Date JUN 20, 2014
Component AIR BAGS
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 2803214

In the event of a crash necessitating deployment of the driver side frontal air bag, the inflator could rupture with metal fragments striking and potentially seriously injuring the vehicle occupants.

Recall ID # 103933 - AIR BAG
Recall Date JUN 20, 2014
Component AIR BAGS
Model Affected CR-V
Potential Units Affected 988440

In the event of a crash necessitating deployment of the passenger's frontal air bag, the inflator could rupture with metal fragments striking and potentially seriously injuring the passenger seat occupant or other occupants.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2002/honda/cr_v/recalls/
We don't know where we are, or where we're going -- but we're making good time.
User avatar
Epsilon Delta
Posts: 8090
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Epsilon Delta »

countofmc wrote:
From this article I linked:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/busin ... .html?_r=0

The excerpt:

"The danger of exploding air bags was not disclosed for years after the first reported incident in 2004, despite red flags — including three additional ruptures reported to Honda in 2007, according to interviews, regulatory filings and court records.

In each of the incidents, Honda settled confidential financial claims with people injured by the air bags, but the automaker did not issue a safety recall until late 2008, and then for only a small fraction — about 4,200 — of its vehicles eventually found to be equipped with the potentially explosive air bags.

The delays by both Honda and Takata in alerting the public about the defect — and later in Takata’s acknowledging it extended beyond a small group of Honda vehicles — meant other automakers like BMW, Toyota and Nissan were not aware of possible defects in their own vehicles for years, putting off their recalls. Only last month, Honda issued yet another recall of its own — its ninth for the defect — bringing to six million the total of recalled Honda and Acura vehicles."

These allegations seem pretty damning to me.
Well that first sentence, which looks the most damming, is directly contradicted later in the article.
By law, automakers are required to inform federal regulators of a defect within five business days, even if an exact cause cannot be determined. Honda filed a standard report on the initial air bag injury in 2004, and followed up with similar filings on the incidents in 2007.
As for the rest Look at what is reported in the article.
One event in 2004.
Three events in 2007.
Recall in 2008.

One event in 2004 does not establish a pattern. Depending on exactly on what was know or should have been known it may have been cause for further action or not. We cannot tell from the article.
Next events are reported three years later. These may establish a pattern. Did Honda deal with these in a timely manner? The article says they were reported to NHTSA in a timely manner. Further Honda clearly started or continued it's investigation at this point.
Honda had a recall in late 2008, so perhaps 6 to 24 months after the second event. Was this timely? We cannot tell from the article.
Did the investigation find (and the recall cover) the cause of the events known at that time? We cannot tell from the article.

That Honda settled a claim for the 2004 event does not mean they admitted or knew about a defect. Lots of claims are settled because it's cheaper than fighting. The settlements for the 2007 events probably happened after, or at the same time as, the 2008 recall, but we cannot tell from the article.

Could there be other facts that are more damming. We cannot tell from the article.

Why are the other auto makers being held harmless? If they were exposed they could also have found the problem. Of course we need to know which automakers used these airbags and where. Things we cannot tell from the article.
bloom2708
Posts: 9861
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by bloom2708 »

Let's agree, individuals will never agree on cars. There is so much going into the decision. What your parents drove, history, bias, needs, maintenance/lemons, family size, features, location, etc.

Most of our cars have been Fords. They have all been good cars/trucks. We did venture "out" and tried a Toyota (05 Highlander) and a Honda (07 Odyssey). We bought into the "consensus" of marketing. We were not really impressed with either. I know this is a small sample and not representative of broader "success" with those brands.

After the 07 Odyssey debacle I simply narrowed my scope to Ford. It is amazing how that simplifies the decision making process. They make good cars. Are they the best? I'm sure I can get 1,000 arguments against every model. Should others do the same? Nope.

My next car will likely be a Ford C-Max hybrid. I can get an SE with leather and the options I need for $23k. Is it better than a Prius? Probably not. But I have a trusted dealer. A trusted salesperson.

Could I change my mind down the road? Yes.

Good luck on your "next" car hunt.
Topic Author
countofmc
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by countofmc »

kazper wrote:I have reached the same conclusion but not because of the recall. My wife had paintc chipping on her newish honda. It was covered under warranty. Come to find out, they wouldn't pay for a rental car, and it would take a week to have it done. We paid for the rental and at the end of the week the car still is t done.

Great treatment of your customers, honda!
I think this is more specific dealership dependent. Some dealerships treat their customers well, some treat them like crap.
User avatar
pennstater2005
Posts: 2509
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by pennstater2005 »

I plan on just wearing a flak jacket in my Accord.
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson
Topic Author
countofmc
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by countofmc »

pennstater2005 wrote:I plan on just wearing a flak jacket in my Accord.
Most of the deaths were caused by injuries to the face/neck area, so you might want to add a helmet as well. Of course, you could also refrain from trying to joke about a situation that has killed and/or injured hundreds so far. Unless you were serious, in which case my helmet advice stands.
surfstar
Posts: 2853
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by surfstar »

Cars made in the last 10 years are LIGHTYEARS ahead of older vehicles in terms of safety, technology, etc.

Recalls get overblown due to the 24/7 'news' requirements to fill time!

Do your research and buy a car for what you like - whether its safety, economy, comfort, cargo, sportiness, etc.
User avatar
pennstater2005
Posts: 2509
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by pennstater2005 »

countofmc wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:I plan on just wearing a flak jacket in my Accord.
Most of the deaths were caused by injuries to the face/neck area, so you might want to add a helmet as well. Of course, you could also refrain from trying to joke about a situation that has killed and/or injured hundreds so far. Unless you were serious, in which case my helmet advice stands.
My intent was not to be hurtful towards anyone seriously injured or killed, although thanks for trying to make it appear that way.
“If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of car payments.” – Earl Wilson
Topic Author
countofmc
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 am

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by countofmc »

pennstater2005 wrote:
countofmc wrote:
pennstater2005 wrote:I plan on just wearing a flak jacket in my Accord.
Most of the deaths were caused by injuries to the face/neck area, so you might want to add a helmet as well. Of course, you could also refrain from trying to joke about a situation that has killed and/or injured hundreds so far. Unless you were serious, in which case my helmet advice stands.
My intent was not to be hurtful towards anyone seriously injured or killed, although thanks for trying to make it appear that way.
Didn't imply that you were, rather that your joke was just in poor taste. You are either a guy that's seriously planning on driving around wearing a flak jacket, or you are a guy that jokes that he will in response to a legit safety issue. Either way, doesn't seem very appropriate. But that's just my opinion, you obviously have the right to do or type whatever you want.
Buster65
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Buster65 »

Audi A3 TDI. You get audi quality with better than Prius MPG's. Love mine!
User avatar
ivyhedge
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:59 pm
Location: A Town of Beans with only one hill remaining

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by ivyhedge »

archman65 wrote:Audi A3 TDI. You get audi quality with better than Prius MPG's. Love mine!
Spiff. I routinely refill fewer than two gallons (~1.8gal) on a 124 mile round trip in mixed driving when I rent a 2005 Prius to drive out of state once/week. And my gosh: is that thing capacious.
Polymath.
User avatar
BarbaricYawp
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:29 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by BarbaricYawp »

archman65 wrote:Audi A3 TDI. You get audi quality with better than Prius MPG's. Love mine!

You doing something special with your Audi? Only driving it downhill with a tailwind? :twisted: Last I checked Prius got 51 MPG city, 48 highway (consistent with my real-life experience. And I have a lead foot). Audi TDI MPG claim numbers are 31C/43H.
"The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." --Dorothy Parker
TPS_Reports
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by TPS_Reports »

I'm still driving my Honda, 350,000 miles, 42 mpg. Only had to replace the clutch once.

I'm not sure if the new Honda cars are built like this - if they are, I would buy another Honda.
Last edited by TPS_Reports on Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
inbox788
Posts: 8372
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by inbox788 »

dbh25 wrote:I'm still driving my '93 Honda Civic, 350,000 miles, 42 mpg. Only had to replace the clutch once at 250,000 miles.

I'm not sure if the new Honda cars are built like this Civic - if they are, I would buy another Honda.
They are not. They're still good cars, but those 90's Civics are over-engineered and built like tanks. Newer cars have better mileage because of more complex technological improvements and reduction in weight, largely replacement of steel parts with plastic and aluminum. Other improvement in safety and convenience add to the complexity and potential problems.

BTW, those OEM tires must be bald by now. Seriously, only one clutch replacement? I guess that's why you're getting 42 mpg. How many sets of brake pads have you gone through? Number of timing belts? Transmission and brake fluid changes?

FWIW, I did 40 mpg in 90 accord manual transmission, but only one tankful, and it was all highway driving, probably some downgrade. Still, the most I've ever seen for a car that got me around 30 average with mixed driving.
AddingUp
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:12 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by AddingUp »

inbox788 wrote: They're still good cars, but those 90's Civics are over-engineered and built like tanks.

Oh, this is SO true! I am just waiting for mine to die so I can replace it, but it won't so I won't…yet!
User avatar
Dutch
Posts: 1277
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:12 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by Dutch »

Switch to Acura :P
TPS_Reports
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Done with Honda, not sure what next car should be?

Post by TPS_Reports »

inbox788 wrote:
BTW, those OEM tires must be bald by now. Seriously, only one clutch replacement? I guess that's why you're getting 42 mpg. How many sets of brake pads have you gone through? Number of timing belts? Transmission and brake fluid changes?
Brake pads about every 7 years. 4 timing belt changes. Tran. fluid, brake fluid, spark plugs, etc. about every 30K miles at a tuneup. Lots of 1-time replacements: radiator, alternator, distributor, etc. Original engine.

The Honda w/automatic transmission got 5 mgg less AND cost $900 more. That was a no-brainer to buy to a manual. My bro-in-law drove the car home from the dealer lot after I purchased it, and then I spent the next week on side streets, learning how to drive manual.
Post Reply