Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

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paulsiu
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Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by paulsiu »

I notice that the primary sump pump may be dead. The reason I think this is because the alarm keeps going off everytime it rains. The alarm indicated the secondary sump pump is activating but the primary one is not.

I looked in the well and can see that it's some sort of green dome like pump. My guess that it's some sort of pressure activated pump. Perhaps the pressure switch is down and this is why it is not working. I have never own a house with a sump pump before, so I am at a loss about the replacement.

1. How difficult is this to do? Should I hire someone to do it or can I do this myself. What's the likelihood of messing up and getting water all over the basement?
2. Is there a good time and bad time to do it? Right now, it appears to rain a lot. It may be a good time to do when there is less rain fall?
3. How do I calculate pumping capacity. One issue I encountered is that the amount of heavy rainfall has increase in the area since I moved here. One year, I had rainfall close to 7 inch an hour. This was beyond the capacity of the current pump. The last time this happen, it was back in 1850 or so. A few years after that, I had a 4 inch per hour rainfall which nearly flooded the well. I figure to be safe, I should get a higher capacity unit. What do you recommend? Something that can handle 10 inches an hour? Is the water removal limited by the pipe they use the transport the water?

Paul
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Aptenodytes »

I don't find it hard, but each case is unique and you know yourself best. There are definitely mistakes one could make that would spew water into the basement.

My advice is that if you aren't sure, you should hire a handyman or plumber. They can advise on the best capacity.

Capacity is determined by the rate of inflow into your basement, not by rainfall. Someone with good drainage, a low water table, diverision of rain far from the house, etc, might be able to tolerate heavy rains with no flooding. Conversely, someone with the opposite conditions could flood under fairly light rain conditions.

A backup power capability can matter more than the pump capacity. I guess in 1850 you didn't have to worry about electricity, but you might want to think about how likely a power outage during a flood event is, and take steps to be ready.

7 inches of rain in one hour is a lot! The world record is 12.

Definitely don't try to replace a pump when you have flooding. I had to do that once when a pump failed during heavy rains, and it was definitely not fun.
HoosierJim
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by HoosierJim »

Here's a sump pump sizing guide

For simplification, a sump pumps performance curve shows how many gallons per minute you can pump when lifting the liquid up an elevation. Additional drag or friction is the piping, elbows, fittings, check valves etc can be converted to equivalent pipe lengths. To the pump - it all looks like a resistance curve that is a function of the flow. Bottom line - if your basement arrangement requires lots of piping or you have a deep basement - you need more pump.

Installation Instructions
rkhusky
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by rkhusky »

You can also buy a small electric pump, attach a garden hose, and use that to keep the water out of the pit while you do the repairs. The switches in pumps sometime go bad and you can buy replacement switches. Make sure the float has not caught on something. You can manually move the switch lever to see whether it is the switch, the pump or the float that is giving you the problem.
Globalviewer58
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Globalviewer58 »

You can watch a time lapse video of sump pump replacement on YouTube. Got to www.youtube.com and search for "sump pump replacement". The tools, materials and skills required are all demonstrated by a first timer.

You might also want to ensure the discharge is moving the pumped water far enough away from the structure that the water is not running back toward the house. We had this problem during a period of heavy rain until a good Samaritan plumber walking by noticed and stopped to offer advice and a simple solution.
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Toons
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Toons »

I didn't find it hard at all.Fairly straight forward,,,,a little messy but you can do it yourself :happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNlGfa ... redirect=1
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Epsilon Delta »

It's not a very hard job. There are factors that make it easier or harder you can consider before you DIY.

Having room to work helps, as does not having to worry about spilling a few cups or gallons of water. There is usually some water remaining in pipes or pumps when you remove them, and it takes care to handle them "just so" to keep water from escaping. Working in an unfinished basement is more forgiving of splils.

Ideally you wait until the water level is low enough that a pump does not need to run to keep the basement dry. A good long dry spell in which you can do the work is a plus.

First, the less water in the pit the better you can see and the dryer and warmer your hands and arms stay.

More importantly, when replacing the pump you will want disconnect the electricity from all devices near the pit, including the backup pump. If water is flowing into the pit at the time you have to work quickly, to get the job completed before the basement floods. If it's dry when you do the replacement you have time to think about what you are doing, run to the hardware store for extra parts, or even get a plumber if it turns out to be too much for you.

If the water level and inflow is low a wet-and-dry shop vacuum can be used to remove the last gallon or ten from the pit. A basement sink to dump the vacuum is a plus.

If you can replace the pump with the exact same model it may only require tightening screws rather than cutting and gluing pipe.

---
On sizing pumps. There is a theory that bigger is always better. IMHO this is not correct. My sump contains about 10 gallons. This is loosely coupled to about 50 gallons in the soil and gravel around the pit. A half horsepower pump short cycles. It pumps the 10 gallons from the pit much faster than water flows in from the surrounding soil. So it runs for less than a minute to empty the pit, a few minutes later the pit refills from the immediate surroundings and the pump runs again. A quarter HP pump is slow enough that it pumps 50 or so gallons at a time and cycles much less often. This is both quieter and easier on the pump.

If your worried about heavy rain overwhelming a smaller pump remember you have a backup. If the controls are arranged correctly this will come on if the primary pump is overwhelmed (both will run together). In my situation my backup only runs a few times a year so it will last a long time and be highly reliable. In some cases I've seen three pumps, a 1/4 HP primary, a 1/2 HP backup and a water pressure operated backup for multiple redundancy.

Of course this depends on climate. I get both light and heavy rain. If you get only heavy rain, bigger may be better.
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FrugalInvestor
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by FrugalInvestor »

I would suggest looking for someone who specializes in installing sump pumps in basements and crawlspaces. There are typically quite a few out there. They install, repair and service sump pumps on a regular basis and know what pumps work best and are most durable. They can also tell you what you or they should be doing to maintain your pump on an annual basis (backflow valve is the main one I'm aware of). The pumps are not very expensive and installation is usually very straightforward. I had a new pump installed for the recent purchasers of our home (to ease their minds) and it was $225 installed.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
snoopdoug1
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by snoopdoug1 »

I did mine and I'm not even that handy - give it a shot. Worst case you still have the backup right? :) I literally just went to home depot, and talked to the guy about what I'd need. He pushed my cart around for me, explained exactly how to do it, and I did the rest.
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dbCooperAir
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by dbCooperAir »

I replaced 2 of them in the past 22 years, mine was not bad to replace but I consider myself handy, replacing a water heater/furnace is just something I enjoy so I do it myself. If it all plastic PVC pipe it easy to cut patch replace. Each pump I replaced required some modification to the plastic pipe do to the change in the pump outlet piping height/location.

As far as sizing if the old one was keeping up no reason to get a bigger one, but many times you can upsize from 1/3hp to 1/2hp for about $10 and gain some GPM if you think is a little short.
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-
Boglegrappler
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Boglegrappler »

Sump pumps aren't that complicated. They're attached to (usually) a PVC pipe, which has a check valve in it not far from the pump that will prevent the pumped water from flowing backwards down the pipe. Sometimes you can disconnect it at the check valve in order to work on it. Disconnect the bottom of the check valve, not the top, so that you don't have the column of water that sits on top of the check valve drain back on you.

Most of the pumps have their own circuit and are plugged into a regular grounded outlet near where they sit. So the electrical aspects of it aren't complicated.

Depending on how your sump pit is set up, your secondary pump may be coming on because your primary sump has failed, or the pump may be jammed. After you pull out the pump, try to test it in a big home depot 10 gallon bucket. It may simply be jammed with a twig or something.

If you need a new one, just order one from one of the online places. You can make it more powerful than the one you have if you like.

A plumber probably would charge less than $300 of labor for a replacement, plus the cost of a new pump. IF there is anything about your setup that is not up to the plumbing or electrical code, they'll want to fix that and it will cost more.
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bardenay
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by bardenay »

It is not a difficult job, especially if you are replacing and existing pump. I would recommend replacing the check valve(s) at the same time. The pump switch and the check valve are two common things that fail in pump systems.

Here is a company that carries several brands of pumps and valves:

http://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/

I have not purchased from them, so I can't speak to their service level. When I am ready to purchase a battery backup system, however, I will most likely purchase from them.

-Bardenay
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Kenkat
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Kenkat »

I did mine and it was a pretty easy job. Less than an hour overall. I replaced mine with exactly the same unit that was previously installed, so there was very little needed in terms of re-working connections, etc. it was a Zoeller which I found out was one of the better brands in terms of reliability and longevity.
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FrugalInvestor
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by FrugalInvestor »

kenschmidt wrote:I did mine and it was a pretty easy job. Less than an hour overall. I replaced mine with exactly the same unit that was previously installed, so there was very little needed in terms of re-working connections, etc. it was a Zoeller which I found out was one of the better brands in terms of reliability and longevity.
I also had a Zoeller. The fellow who did the trenching under my house and installed my pump said they are among the most reliable.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Topic Author
paulsiu
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by paulsiu »

so the backup uses some sort of water float switch and the main pump has no switch. I am guessing that it's pressure based. It looks like a dome.

My fear is that if I take out the primary, I will managed to wipe out the secondary. I should be able to take out the primary without disturbing the secondary pump? In that case, I can give it a try.

Paul
likegarden
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by likegarden »

I have two sump pumps and a backup, have replaced them several times over 27 years. One of them is submersible. In case it is broken, I would pull it out and see which model it is, look it up on the internet. In case you need to replace it right now, then take it with you for comparison at the store. I buy mine at Home Depot or Lowes. Once I bought the wrong replacement when I left the pump home. Once you have it replaced, save all the documentation and write up how you replaced it for later use.
Topic Author
paulsiu
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by paulsiu »

I have been researching this topic some more. Here's what I learn so far.

How the pump works
Most pump used are the submersible type. This design allow cooling from the water and runs a bit quieter. Most will sit in some sort of well. In residential houses, the well are typically 18x24 inch (about 26 gallon), but expert recommend 30 inch (33 gallon). Water gets sucked up into a pipe that goes outside of the house. The pipe is typically 1.5 inch diameter and about 10 feet long and have flap that prevents water from the pipe from flowing back into the well.

Design
Experts recommend a cast iron design because it's heavy duty and not prone to cracking. The type of switch is important. There are several type of switches. On my old pump uses a barometric switch that operates by water pressure. These are prone to failure. A second type uses float on a flexible cable, but these are not recommended either since the float may drift and get caught on something. The most reliable are floats that operate on a vertical rod. The float should be solid because hollow float eventually fill with water and fail.

Capacity
Rating are deceptive. Since most resident pipes are around 10 feet long, you should use the rating of gallons with a 10 feet head. A lot of rating on the side only list capacity with a zero head, making the rating sound much higher than it actually is. A residential pump typically pumps about 30-60 gallons per minute with a 10 foot head.

For extreme situation, you can buy pumps with a 140 gallon per minute with a 10 foot head. These are typically install in a much larger well of about 24x36 with a larger 2 inch pipe. One may think we can go big and use one of these in a regular well. This is not a good idea. The well empty in 6 second. The constant cycling will reduce the life of your pump.

Pump Recommendation
As another poster recommended, Zoeller are highly recommended. Most have a cast iron construction with a solid plastic float. The Zoeller M57 pumps about 30 gallon per minute. The M98 model can handle 60 gallon. I think I am going to get the M98 just in case we get a massive rain storm.

Paul
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Toons
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by Toons »

dbCooperAir wrote:I replaced 2 of them in the past 22 years, mine was not bad to replace but I consider myself handy, replacing a water heater/furnace is just something I enjoy so I do it myself. If it all plastic PVC pipe it easy to cut patch replace. Each pump I replaced required some modification to the plastic pipe do to the change in the pump outlet piping height/location.

As far as sizing if the old one was keeping up no reason to get a bigger one, but many times you can upsize from 1/3hp to 1/2hp for about $10 and gain some GPM if you think is a little short.


+1 That is what I did second time around ,upgraded to 1/2 hp :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
jackietreehorn
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Re: Replacing primary sump pump - how difficult

Post by jackietreehorn »

Definitely do it yourself, unless you are disabled or unable to access pump because of health reasons. It is pretty easy and straight forward. You could google it, if need be.
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