How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

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technovelist
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by technovelist »

lowerleisureclass wrote:
technovelist wrote:
lowerleisureclass wrote:
semiotic wrote: Yes, editing is my passion. Much of my academic research centred around textual editing/editorial theory, and all through my student days I was the go-to for proof reading papers, editing short stories, "making stuff sound good," etc.

I completed an editing assessment for a Technical Writing job with an Engineering/Procurement firm recently, which I absolutely enjoyed doing, and ended up going in for an interview. I thought I rocked the interview, but was not offered the position. I loved taking a bunch of half-coherent engineering processes and making a beautiful, readable, and engaging final document; the interviews made specific comments about how they enjoyed my document design, and that I made some key editorial decisions that other candidates did not. I keep applying for positions in that vein, but many of them require some sort of technical qualification, or "3-5 years of progressive experience editing and controlling engineering documents." I think part of the problem is that I've never officially had the title of "Technical Writer," though I have carried out technical writing duties (all of my own making as my current role is not explicitly communications oriented in any fashion), and try to make that clear in my resume and cover letter. I was an "Assistant Editor" for a University publication, but the rest of my resume is comprised of various "Research Assistant" positions along with my current role. Nothing has landed... yet.

I have toyed with the idea of starting some sort of freelance editing business, but I'm really not sure how to go about the logistics of finding paying clients, etc. when much of my editing experience comes from the academic sphere.

You might try reworking your resume to focus on areas of experience rather than a straight chronological job/title/date format -- it would at least be an interesting exercise to see how you can tease out/highlight the experience relevant to your goals. And to echo an upthread comment, yes *definitely* answer the 'what do you do' question by telling the what you want to do instead; you never know who might remember you later or know someone who knows someone who is looking for an editor.
According to a very well respected career advisor, John Lucht, the type of resume you are recommending will almost certainly NOT help anyone get a better job. Potential employers look at it very dubiously, wondering what you are trying to hide.

I strongly recommend Lucht's book, "Rites of Passage at $100K+" (http://smile.amazon.com/Rites-Passage-1 ... B00JMHR16I) for anyone trying to improve their career prospects.
I've always felt that way myself, but then my engineering firm has hired more than one person (both admin and technical) in the past couple of years who had that type of resume, so clearly not everyone agrees with me, and god knows I've never hired anyone. I do think however that it could be a good exercise in figuring out how to highlight your experience, and it doesn't have to be either/or -- you can have a chronological list with job titles AND a section highlighting your experience with the type of work you're looking for..
Yes, that is fine; in fact it is an excellent idea. It's just the "don't look at my work history in detail" type that is suspect.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
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ResearchMed
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by ResearchMed »

semiotic wrote:
CFM300 wrote:If you want to write and edit and yet make crazy good money, you should consider corporate communications. Yes, you'll have to work to break into the field. Probably by paying your dues in another field of writing first: journalism, publishing, technical writing, advertising.

Have you considered teaching?
I loved the teaching and lecturing I did in graduate school, but K-12 education in my province requires a 2 year post bac program, which I can't afford at the moment.

Yes, corporate communications is on my radar. I actually did an informational interview with someone in that field, and it seems like something I would enjoy, but I haven't had any luck with the few jobs I've applied to so far.
Community college teaching, very part time?
Is there anything like that in Canada?
You mention K-12. Are there private schools that do not require regular certification?
(I used to volunteer at my children's school to teach a mini-course on statistics and probability, pre-high school. The main question at the end of the hour on Day1 was almost always, "Can we keep the dice?" :happy Later in the week, they were doing blind tasting of two brands of similar beverage. All I know, is I was asked back to do it again. No, that didn't lead to any "real work for pay", but that wasn't the point of those little "courses".)

You *enjoyed* teaching!

Who knows what it might lead to.

(As an aside, my "real" teaching, which was for many years part time while I did research and/or consulting, led to more than a few other consulting offers, a few of which I accepted. One turned into a multi-year "regular" job, while I still continued the part time teaching. It is possible to cobble together a very enjoyable career. And - eventually - lucrative, but the enjoyment/interesting factors were always far more important.)

RM
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Easy Rhino
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Easy Rhino »

A few points:

Don't pay attention to the incomes or the portfolio sizes of folks here on the bogleheads. It will seem like the average poster is both retired and a zillionaire. that's because the average poster is both retired and a zillionaire :)

Please focus on the improvement in your net worth -32k to -7k is impressive. You'll probably get a bit of a lift when you're in the positives.

You're probably living somewhere really expensive like Vancouver or Toronto eh? Even then, your pay is still pretty decent. When I first moved out to San Diego I was only making about... $40k, and I was able to get by fine. Admittedly, it probably wasn't as expensive as you were, it was 10 years ago, and it was 'Murican money... but you get the idea. Oh and I was a history major and now I work at a software company as a database analyst, so go figure, right?

I think you just need to, wait for the cliche, figure out what you want to do with your work life, and start pursuing it. For instance, My wife wasn't able to finish college, but she hustled and is working in a pretty good job, ironically in a field similar to mine. But she's just now going back to finish her bachelor's, because she finally figured out what she wants to do.
CFM300
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by CFM300 »

If you're willing to do corporate communications, then your future is bright. Stop worrying about how much you're making at the moment, and focus on improving your future earnings. Get on the ladder (any rung) and start climbing!

The same is true of teaching, actually, although you have think outside the box a bit. PM me if you want to hear more.
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htdrag11
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by htdrag11 »

@Semiotic,

You're doing fine; don't get down on yourself. When I graduated during the last century, I was an unemployed Math major who ended up selling life insurance for 4 years. So it could be worse! besides, English is a great transition skill; it's not even my native tongue.

To find a better paying job, try LinkedIn or social networking.

Fast forward to current time, I'm happily retiring early and have little concern about cash flow by living below our means, diversified our portfolios, setting a plan and stick to it, staying in the market, etc.

Since you're living in your parents' home, payoff your loan before they kick you out if you can.

Don't waste money see psychiatrist but borrow and read these 2 books to improve your mental state: Ernie Zelinski's The Joy of not Working and Ingrid Bacci's Art of Effortless Living.

As someone pointing out, you're fortunate to live in this country of ours. If you travel to 3rd world countries, you know that we're blessed.

Be well and good luck. You've a whole life ahead of you.
sschullo
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by sschullo »

HomerJ wrote:I didn't really start my career until I was 29...

You're doing a lot better than I was at 26...
I didn't till I was 37--late bloomer.

Your are doing fine. Your main problem is comparing yourself with others.
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semiotic
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by semiotic »

Easy Rhino wrote:A few points:

Don't pay attention to the incomes or the portfolio sizes of folks here on the bogleheads. It will seem like the average poster is both retired and a zillionaire. that's because the average poster is both retired and a zillionaire :)

Please focus on the improvement in your net worth -32k to -7k is impressive. You'll probably get a bit of a lift when you're in the positives.

You're probably living somewhere really expensive like Vancouver or Toronto eh? Even then, your pay is still pretty decent. When I first moved out to San Diego I was only making about... $40k, and I was able to get by fine. Admittedly, it probably wasn't as expensive as you were, it was 10 years ago, and it was 'Murican money... but you get the idea. Oh and I was a history major and now I work at a software company as a database analyst, so go figure, right?

I think you just need to, wait for the cliche, figure out what you want to do with your work life, and start pursuing it. For instance, My wife wasn't able to finish college, but she hustled and is working in a pretty good job, ironically in a field similar to mine. But she's just now going back to finish her bachelor's, because she finally figured out what she wants to do.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm one province over from Vancouver in the apparent home of disposable income. I will work on being more patient.
htdrag11 wrote:@Semiotic,

You're doing fine; don't get down on yourself. When I graduated during the last century, I was an unemployed Math major who ended up selling life insurance for 4 years. So it could be worse! besides, English is a great transition skill; it's not even my native tongue.

To find a better paying job, try LinkedIn or social networking.

Fast forward to current time, I'm happily retiring early and have little concern about cash flow by living below our means, diversified our portfolios, setting a plan and stick to it, staying in the market, etc.

Since you're living in your parents' home, payoff your loan before they kick you out if you can.

Don't waste money see psychiatrist but borrow and read these 2 books to improve your mental state: Ernie Zelinski's The Joy of not Working and Ingrid Bacci's Art of Effortless Living.

As someone pointing out, you're fortunate to live in this country of ours. If you travel to 3rd world countries, you know that we're blessed.

Be well and good luck. You've a whole life ahead of you.
I will definitely check out those two books. I'm likely moving out of my parents' place within the next two months, which has definitely been a major contributor to my stressing out. Going from being able to put ~65% of my income towards debt/savings to ~10-20% is just giving me all sorts of panicky feelings. Not to mention added grocery and utility costs, a longer commute, more money needed to be earmarked for car maintenance-- all of which I've factored into my prospective budget, of course.
sschullo wrote:
HomerJ wrote:I didn't really start my career until I was 29...

You're doing a lot better than I was at 26...
I didn't till I was 37--late bloomer.

Your are doing fine. Your main problem is comparing yourself with others.
I know this isn't a finance question, and is probably better directed towards a mental health professional, but what/who should I be comparing myself to then?
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runner9
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by runner9 »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Trader Joe wrote:Your fundamental mistake was choosing to pursue an English degree. Try pursuing another field more aligned with the compensation you desire.
Really? :oops: What degree do you suggest instead? :?:

There's plenty you can do with an English degree and it doesn't involve being a petroleum transfer technician (aka gas pumper). :wink:
A close relative has a BA and MA in English and is a tenured English prof in his early/mid 30s making about 55K. Not for everyone, certainly a lot of adjuncts making far less in similar work, but still.
gkaplan
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by gkaplan »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Trader Joe wrote:Your fundamental mistake was choosing to pursue an English degree. Try pursuing another field more aligned with the compensation you desire.
Really? :oops: What degree do you suggest instead? :?:

There's plenty you can do with an English degree and it doesn't involve being a petroleum transfer technician (aka gas pumper). :wink:

I totally agree.
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surfstar
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by surfstar »

OP: You're young - focus on enjoying yourself/life. The fact that you even think about having a budget and saving for retirement puts you ahead of 90% of the public; no matter what their income is.

This board can be disheartening at times. I'm one of the lower income / net worth posters, I'd wager. I try not to compare the numbers though, as happiness can be measured in many ways. Focus on what makes you happy.
mjb
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by mjb »

I am about your age, in a STEM field, with a graduate degree, not making 2x your salary. It isn't all roses. I spend half my time being anything but an engineer from legal to travel agent to records coordinator to illustrator to editor. I have had 80 hour weeks while salaried. Thankfully, I live well below my means, have a nice circle of friends, and have the perfect fiancée

She is in a similar situation to you, English masters, just got a job in her field teaching 12th graders, and making less than you. She is often down about it, but she also tends to downplay or ignore her other skills which I bet you might do as well.

My advice, apply to a wide range of jobs, maybe start a job on the side in a field you like (maybe editing or ghost writing or writing), or get involved with a local nonprofit to network, gain skills, and enjoy life. I do the latter to and that keeps me same from my day job.
larkspur
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by larkspur »

I finally registered just to reply to your post. English major here. I went to grad school in my late 30s (MS info design) and got some website-making skills, finally hit $0 net around age 40. Now, 15 years later things look a lot better as a result of both of those educational efforts and early entry into the first 401k I had a chance at.

Getting jobs is the tricky thing, no matter your age or education. As a technical writer, early in my career just out of college with my English degree, I joined the international Society for Technical Communication. This is the best place for tech writers to network for jobs and to learn which skills to hone to get the best ones. If you are not a member, you should definitely join today.

My advice in a nutshell:

* Specialize as needed throughout life by taking targeted college classes or other professional training in an area you want to work in.

* Get a professional to help you edit your resume to show off all your transferable skills and effectively discuss them in terms of accomplishments.

* Join professional societies for the fields you're interested in, especially your local chapters, and go to their meetings with your resume regularly. Get their job-bank newsletter and connect to other society members via LinkedIn. Even local interest groups from Meetup.com can be a good vector for jobs.

* Keep building your computer-oriented skills, for example "writing for the web," "content strategy" and "storytelling" are big in the market right now, and learn to use the tools you see most in the job descriptions you'd like to have.

* Put money into your retirement account now, as much as is feasible, because this is the money that will multiply the most in your lifetime.

* Apply for any jobs that you would like to do, if you have 75% or more of what they are asking for on the skills list. Reach so you can grow. Those things are often impossible wish lists and you may well have more skills and qualifications than the other applicants.

Remember that you know how to do one of the things that most people can't do, which is communicate clearly in writing. If you learn to be comfortable with public speaking you'll have two of the most desirable job skills. One or both of those skills can put you ahead of the competition when applying for jobs, and every single industry and organization needs people with those skills. Can you make a good slide deck? Publish things on the web? You have a bright future. Don't knock your English degree. It's really versatile. You can teach while traveling with it too in many countries.

* Find something worth doing and do that too, regardless of its income potential. Work can't give us what we need to feel fulfilled in most cases. Keep looking until you find things that help you feel effective and that make a difference to things you care about.

Best wishes!
killjoy2012
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by killjoy2012 »

1) The Bogleheads.org community is not representative of the world at large. And even then, I would bet you could count the # of self-made "under 25's" making six figures here on one hand.
2) Related to #1, COL is a huge factor. $90k in the Bay area is borderline poor house. $90k in the South or Midwest is doing extremely well.
3) I made ~$45k at age 26 with a STEM bachelors working for a Fortune 10 company. Unless you're living in a high COL area, I think your income is pretty good, esp given your age, and given your degree. I would be more worried about what the future holds. You can only be an admin for so long, and only within a certain pay range.
4) Don't just "do" STEM for the $. Pick something you like ("love") - you'll be doing it for the next 30-40 years. I'd also caution you to look at the lifestyle of the people you 're envious of, especially the opportunity cost, and weigh that against the $.
5) Stop whining (really!). You made your decisions, and you are where you are because of that. If you like where you're at - great! If not, put the effort towards steering the ship either further down your current path... or towards a different path, and possibly a better future.
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MossySF
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by MossySF »

There will always be somebody who earns more than you, is better looking that you, runs faster than you, can time the market better than you, can play the piano better than you. Even transcendental talents in the past have suffered in the aspects in the life they were not expert in.

Have your own goals/achievements/benchmarks for you to compare yourself against. Aim for measured improvement.
toto238
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by toto238 »

MossySF wrote:There will always be somebody who earns more than you, is better looking that you, runs faster than you, can time the market better than you, can play the piano better than you. Even transcendental talents in the past have suffered in the aspects in the life they were not expert in.

Have your own goals/achievements/benchmarks for you to compare yourself against. Aim for measured improvement.
This. +1.

I went through a bit of this when I continued my piano studies in college. I was a big fish in a small pond in high school, and could easily say I was the best pianist I knew. But in college I was in for a rude awakening as I realized that some of my colleagues could do things on the piano that I likely will never be able to do in my life. Very humbling for any instrumentalist is to do a Youtube search for the advanced solo piece they're learning and see how other people play it. 100% guaranteed, there's a video of a 5-year-old kid playing it better than you ever will. I had to step back and ask myself why I was playing the piano. Was I doing it to be the best pianist on the planet? No. I was doing it because I enjoyed it. And while I was certainly capable of learning/memorizing a complex romantic masterpiece (Chopin's Grand Valse Brillante was SO much fun to play), it wasn't truly what made me happiest. I had the most fun when I got together with a couple friends on a few different instruments and jammed on a 12 bar blues for hours. Gimme a lead sheet and a piano and I'll be occupied for hours, lost in my own world. Am I the greatest jazz pianist ever? By no means. But I'm decent enough that other musicians are willing to play with me and I really enjoy it.

That being said, I work in a career that has nothing to do with music that I enjoy. But music is still an important and fulfilling part of my life.
countofmc
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by countofmc »

As others have pointed out, trying to outdo others or compare yourself to them is a black hole. Heck, some people consider the greatest accomplishment in life as "being remembered". But even that, how many will accomplish? Will people know or care who people like Bill Gates or Michael Jordan were 500, 5000, 50,000 years from now? Heck will humans even be around then?

I struggle with a lot of the things you mention myself. And I found that a lot of the cliches in life actually ring true. I'm 32. I mean maybe if I'm lucky I'll have 70 years left to live? Just two more of "my life so far", and I'm probably done. Life just seems too short to worry about my friends' paychecks. I find I truly do get more enjoyment from experiences rather than purchases. As I hit my 30s, I've been longing for more time spent with family, even reaching out to estranged friends and family members. These things seem to matter more than money or career, at least to me.

Bottom line, life is short, and once you are dead few to nobody will remember you. So who cares what others think or how you measure up to them. Just live the life you have on your own terms.
slapstix
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by slapstix »

You'll be fine. You'll be even better with an attitude adjustment and some perspective.

When I was 26, I was about to graduate with my BA and I was folding towels at the University gym front desk for $8/hour.

I'm now 32 and only started saving a year and a half ago.
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bluejello
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by bluejello »

semiotic wrote: Long story short: I'm 26, recently completed my Masters (though I've decided to no longer pursue further graduate study), and have been working for 1 year in an admin-type office job completely unrelated to my degrees (English) on $45,000/yr. In the past year I've finally learned about personal finances/investing. I've been living at home, putting ~60% of my income towards debt repayments and investing, and have managed to raise my net worth from -32k to -7k. I'll be moving out soon with some friends, and while I made up a budget and am able to squirrel away a tiny bit of money... I still feel absolutely horrible about myself.

All around me I see my peer group advancing in their careers, making in a week what I make in a month, and here I am: 26, seemingly nothing to my name, working a [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] job, holding seemingly worthless degrees, and just feeling... worthless.
The best thing I can tell you is that things can and do change incredibly fast. Where you are right now is almost certainly not where you will be in 5 years or even 1 year. You are doing everything right — you are saving, you are paying off debt, you are looking for opportunities to grow your career. You sound smart and hardworking, and even though you're a complete stranger on the internet I would bet on you.

You asked "what/who should I be comparing myself to, if not others"? The answer is simple. Compare yourself to the past version of you. Focus on the fact that you are getting better — smarter, stronger, richer — every single day, month, year.

Think back to how you felt a year ago when you had $32k of debt. Didn't that feel crushing and overwhelming then, like you were never going to pay it off? Well, you've almost paid it off now!

Think back to how you felt before you landed your $45k job. Remember the anxiety, the pain of the job-hunting process, how nervous you were before interviews. Wouldn't that past version of you be super grateful to have the job you have now?

Think back to the person you were before you learned so much about personal finance and investing, how clueless and helpless you felt. Think about how totally impressed that person would be with the financially savvy present you.

Now think about the future. In a few months, you will have $0 debt. You will move out of your parents home. Think about how good that will feel. After that, you will get a raise or find a better paying job or pick up some freelancing work on the side. Your savings account will grow. First it will be in the hundreds, then thousands, then tens of thousands. You'll get another raise, or an even better job. Maybe technical writing will turn into your own business. Your income will grow even further, and along with it your confidence. All of this will happen to you, and it will happen a lot faster than you think.

In other words, try changing the narrative that you have about yourself in your head. As an English major, you should appreciate the importance of the narrative. Facts are facts but how you choose to look at the facts makes up your story, and the power of a good story is immense.

Right now your narrative goes something like this: "I am such an idiot for getting this useless degree in English, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. I am so far behind all my peers. They have awesome lives and my life sucks. I live with my parents, I have no money, I am a loser. Woe is me."

But what if you were to reframe your narrative? Try this: "I have paid off $32k of student loan debt in one year!! Holy cow, I am so awesome. I should be featured on the cover of Responsible Young Adults magazine. AND as if that wasn't enough, I've also found a career path that I enjoy and that I'm effing good at! What an incredibly productive year 2014 has been. I can't wait to see what good things will lie ahead for me in 2015."
Last edited by bluejello on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:13 am, edited 7 times in total.
bluejello
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by bluejello »

Also — check out Leo Babuta's excellent blog, Zen Habits. He writes beautifully about his personal experiences getting out of a ton of debt (as well as about a lot of other things, like managing your emotions and feeling zen).
bluejello
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by bluejello »

semiotic wrote: I have toyed with the idea of starting some sort of freelance editing business, but I'm really not sure how to go about the logistics of finding paying clients, etc. when much of my editing experience comes from the academic sphere.
Here are some ideas:
  • Send a quick note to the companies you've interviewed at: "Hi, thanks again for the opportunity to interview. I know this position has been filled, but if you ever have a need for a freelancer, I'd be very interested! Or, if you know of anyone else who might be looking for a freelancer, I'd greatly appreciate an introduction."
  • Check out elance and oDesk. Jobs there will probably not pay very well, but it'll allow you to build up a portfolio of experience.
  • Post an ad on Craigslist. Probably won't land you anything, but on the off chance it might and it only takes 10 minutes to post an ad.
Workinghard
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Workinghard »

Have you considered looking into the National Guard? Typically training is two weeks a year and you're committed to one weekend a month. One of my kids did this and found their niche. Some jobs had a 20k+ sign on bonus although they did not garnish any interest. Best decision ever even though we weren't involved. :shock: Don't base it on money though and current needs. Dig your heels in and wait for the position you want!
Valuethinker
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Valuethinker »

semiotic wrote:Hi there,

My apologies if this is the wrong venue for this sort of inquiry.

Long story short: I'm 26, recently completed my Masters (though I've decided to no longer pursue further graduate study), and have been working for 1 year in an admin-type office job completely unrelated to my degrees (English) on $45,000/yr. In the past year I've finally learned about personal finances/investing. I've been living at home, putting ~60% of my income towards debt repayments and investing, and have managed to raise my net worth from -32k to -7k.

Anyway, sorry for the ranting vent. I really don't have anyone to talk to in real life, and everyone around me just says "live for today! don't worry about the future!" all while they make 2x+ my salary.
I don't think you are depressed about your finances. For aged 26, 45k a year is not a bad job. With student loans, most Americans are probably negative net worth in their 20s (it's if it is in your 40s that you need to worry ;-)).

I think you are depressed about your job. I remember hating my first job-- worst 2 years of my professional life. Don't worry, btw, that your job has nothing to do with your education. Even if you had a business degree, what you study in the classroom and what you do in business day to day are totally different. That's true unless you have some very specific degree like an accounting degree (and even then, the practice and the theory diverge).

Look for a better job and a career that suits you better. What Color Is Your Parachute and the exercises therein is a great way to start.
George-J
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by George-J »

Hi Semiotic:

You are receiving a lot of very good advice here. So maybe the following does not add much for you - but it may.

I too am a Canadian. Today I am 74 - in Toronto and retired - but back in 1961 at age 21, just out with BA from Mount Allison I had a job with IBM. Excellent job with good salary - but I did not like it much - they seemed to care only for sales and profits. I wanted something else. So I did not stay with IBM but spent 10 more years getting a PhD in physics and doing a post doc - before I got an assistant professor position at a salary of about $13,000 (in 1971 at age 31).

But I was doing what I liked - and it has turned out well.

My advice - don't focus on others who may be making more money. Do what you enjoy doing. And at the same time live below your income and get rid of any debts. :)
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VictoriaF
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by VictoriaF »

I've read a paper about the Facebook depression. People report on Facebook the best parts of their lives. When you read about the best parts of many people's lives, you tend to think that everybody has a better life than you do. Understanding how Facebook works does not help dealing with the Facebook depression, because many of your thoughts and moods are subconscious, influenced by the System 1 thinking. System 1 and System 2 thinking are described in Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow. The fast thinking of System 1 has evolved over many generations of people and has not yet adapted to Facebook and other modern phenomena.

Kahneman's path to fame started with his and Amos Tversky's paper on Heuristics and Biases. Heuristics are mental shortcuts, means of making fast decisions, a product of System 1 thinking. Historically, heuristics were not only useful but also accurate. In the modern era, they lead to biases, such as the availability bias. If you see a lot of something, you intuitively assume that it's more common than it really is. If you see something vivid and impressive, you subconsciously exaggerate its likelihood.

And this leads to the point of this post. Reading the Bogleheads Forum provides enormous advantages in terms of financial education, having specific questions answered, a peer group, some close friendships. But it also may create the Bogleheads depression, i.e., subconsciously assuming that most people are more financially successful than you are. Understanding the Bogleheads availability bias is a start. Dealing with it requires periodic reminders that all of us have complex lives with ups and downs, and that more people come to this Forum with their "ups" than with their "downs."

Cheers,
Victoria
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ResearchMed
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by ResearchMed »

I hadn't heard of the Facebook depression issue (don't use Facebook, pay as little attention to it as possible, which sometimes takes effort).

However, for many years (decades), I would occasionally mention something similar, but in a more personalized context:

It seems in this society (maybe all societies), we tend to speak more often of positive accomplishments/developments.
Think of the "Christmas letters" some families send out, how Junior is now in the Honor Society and got the top Boy Scout award in the world, and his sister just got an internship with the <most prestigious whatever> company, plus a huge signing bonus. Even the dog won something at the Westminster Kennel Club! And the frog collection? Best in the state!
And of course, the new house that was custom-designed with x,y,z features, first in the city!

What they often do NOT write about (and rarely share generally in any way) are things like the fact that the parents don't speak to each other, and as soon as both children are gone... divorce is planned. Or that they really can't afford the payments on that fancy house, which is why they didn't mention all those expensive vacations they used to brag about... I mean "mention"... Or that they are being sued by someone or several people, or that secretly they fear their embezzling will be discovered... Or just "regular bankruptcy"...

Or how they are just learning there are some dreadful medical situations coming to light.

Or how they hope no one will discover that the nice graduate degree and other parts of the resumes are... bogus...

Or just how lonely they *really* are.

--> Or how desperately unhappy they are because THEIR friends/acquaintances/business associates have "more" than they do!!
(Some of your friends may indeed be feeling this way, but they wouldn't dare show it, of course.)

I remember when I was just starting out after grad school, sole support of children... and there was another new academic colleague who had inherited fabulous wealth. (Family name recognizable.) After we got to know each other fairly well, I mumbled something about how nice it must be not to have to worry about money. (Who knows how I phrased such a tacky comment! Dreadfully bad form, but whatever...)
I never forgot her answer: "Everyone has their own private h*ll. You don't know..."
And later she mentioned how several relatives had recently committed suicide. (Family fortune still intact, so *that* wasn't the problem.)

So think again about "who the comparison persons are".
Some of them may be privately envying *you*, because you're just getting started, and have such a bright future ahead of you.
OR... they are living WAY beyond their own means and going deeper into debt, not getting out of debt.

There will be ups and downs emotionally, and perhaps again financially, in the future.
As was pointed out above: Think back to when you had NOT yet paid down any of your debt. You can enjoy a GREAT sense of satisfaction and relief that you are mostly done with what may have seemed an impossible amount.
And once the rest is paid off, you can spend your money and energy on saving. That "little pot" WILL grow, and you'll barely notice it until one day, you'll hit a certain number and do a double take. And SMILE.

Good luck. And I hope you find some sort of free-lance editing/writing, because that does seem a real passion for you.

RM
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Crow Hunter »

VictoriaF wrote:I've read a paper about the Facebook depression. People report on Facebook the best parts of their lives. When you read about the best parts of many people's lives, you tend to think that everybody has a better life than you do. Understanding how Facebook works does not help dealing with the Facebook depression, because many of your thoughts and moods are subconscious, influenced by the System 1 thinking. System 1 and System 2 thinking are described in Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow. The fast thinking of System 1 has evolved over many generations of people and has not yet adapted to Facebook and other modern phenomena.

Kahneman's path to fame started with his and Amos Tversky's paper on Heuristics and Biases. Heuristics are mental shortcuts, means of making fast decisions, a product of System 1 thinking. Historically, heuristics were not only useful but also accurate. In the modern era, they lead to biases, such as the availability bias. If you see a lot of something, you intuitively assume that it's more common than it really is. If you see something vivid and impressive, you subconsciously exaggerate its likelihood.

And this leads to the point of this post. Reading the Bogleheads Forum provides enormous advantages in terms of financial education, having specific questions answered, a peer group, some close friendships. But it also may create the Bogleheads depression, i.e., subconsciously assuming that most people are more financially successful than you are. Understanding the Bogleheads availability bias is a start. Dealing with it requires periodic reminders that all of us have complex lives with ups and downs, and that more people come to this Forum with their "ups" than with their "downs."

Cheers,
Victoria
Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.

I actually got off of Bragbook(Facebook) a while ago. It wasn't because I felt depressed by what everyone else was doing but because I had the overwhelming urge to "prove" myself to everyone of my "friends" (mostly people I went to HS with that I didn't even like then) by posting stuff to brag. I decided that wasn't the type of person that I wanted to be. I am much happier now without it.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by stoptothink »

VictoriaF wrote:I've read a paper about the Facebook depression. People report on Facebook the best parts of their lives. When you read about the best parts of many people's lives, you tend to think that everybody has a better life than you do. Understanding how Facebook works does not help dealing with the Facebook depression, because many of your thoughts and moods are subconscious, influenced by the System 1 thinking.
Great post. I had a conversation about a year ago with a guy I grew up with about this. He has a pretty exciting job, where he travels all over the world and he makes very good money. I commented that he should have his own show on the travel channel. His response was that he wishes he was me because I was educated and with career options, married, and stable. While he was making a lot of money and traveling, he was lonely and kind of stuck in a career that he did not really like because his education/experience typecast his role in the career field. He also was masking this loneliness with a lot of retail therapy and was pretty much treading water financially. From the outside his life looked so exciting, but he wished he was just a regular Joe.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by ieee488 »

semiotic wrote:Hell, I'd be happy just making 75k/yr, renting an apartment by myself, and putting what I can towards investments and a travel fund.
I would be happy too, except unlike you I have a master's degree in engineering, and I have 25+ years of experience in engineering and I live in the HCOL state of New Jersey.
I would be happy too not to have to commute 1.5 hours for work every day.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by bertilak »

semiotic wrote:... and have managed to raise my net worth from -32k to -7k. I'll be moving out soon with some friends, and while I made up a budget and am able to squirrel away a tiny bit of money... I still feel absolutely horrible about myself.
Not sure how long it took to reduce that much debt, but if it was only one year (or even a bit longer) you are doing great! To reduce that depressed feeling, look at the slope, not the level, of debt. Keep that up and you will soon have a respectable, and growing, nest egg. You are at the beginning of the trail but setting a good pace!

Cheer up! :sharebeer (You are allowed a beer now and then!)
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by maroon »

Heck, I'd be happy just making $75K/year, too, and I have an MBA. You're getting lots of positive feedback and reinforcement (which is good), but I think your expectations might be out of whack. Shoot, I bet there's lots of 26-year-olds who are happy just to have a job - never mind the salary.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by livesoft »

I wonder if the OP didn't a get a callback from some of those interviews was because the OP was already making more money than the jobs would have paid. I know at my former company, technical writers would make under $30K to start with the kind of experience that the OP wrote about.

And I saw this on NPR today. It's an old story, but even if you are one of the best in your field, would this not depress you? ->
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Sheepdog »

I was 28 was when I had my first $100 in savings and started preparing for my financial life. I married then. I starting paying for my first home at 29, with a no-down payment GI Bill home loan. We had about $2000 to 3000 in the bank to start buying furniture for the house at that time. (I didn't believe in buying on credit.) At 34, we had enough to start having a family. At 40, my net worth was probably only about $50K, not counting my beautiful wife and 2 great sons. I considered myself rich however. By the time I retired at 65, I had more than enough to retire on. We reached a net worth of over $1M in the meantime.
Live and love and save and invest. Pay yourself first and never get into debt outside of education. Please don't be depressed.....you will be fine. You are farther ahead now than most are. You have an education. You have the will and you will find the way.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Abe »

dratkinson wrote: The way it was told to me, a degree only proves you have the ability to learn, so gets your foot in an employer's door. What you choose to learn after your degree is up to you.
I agree with this. I didn't get a degree, and I did okay. Someone once told me this: You don't get your report card in school; you get your report card later.
To the OP: Do these three things, and you'll do okay. Save, Invest and Compound.
Slow and steady wins the race.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by IPer »

You can make a small salary, live frugally and save 20% of your income (first to emergency fund, tax deferred then to taxable)
and invest it in a balanced fund like target date and be golden your whole life. The key is making sure you keep doing it
no matter how depressed you get.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by countofmc »

VictoriaF wrote:I've read a paper about the Facebook depression. People report on Facebook the best parts of their lives. When you read about the best parts of many people's lives, you tend to think that everybody has a better life than you do. Understanding how Facebook works does not help dealing with the Facebook depression, because many of your thoughts and moods are subconscious, influenced by the System 1 thinking. System 1 and System 2 thinking are described in Daniel Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow. The fast thinking of System 1 has evolved over many generations of people and has not yet adapted to Facebook and other modern phenomena.

Kahneman's path to fame started with his and Amos Tversky's paper on Heuristics and Biases. Heuristics are mental shortcuts, means of making fast decisions, a product of System 1 thinking. Historically, heuristics were not only useful but also accurate. In the modern era, they lead to biases, such as the availability bias. If you see a lot of something, you intuitively assume that it's more common than it really is. If you see something vivid and impressive, you subconsciously exaggerate its likelihood.

And this leads to the point of this post. Reading the Bogleheads Forum provides enormous advantages in terms of financial education, having specific questions answered, a peer group, some close friendships. But it also may create the Bogleheads depression, i.e., subconsciously assuming that most people are more financially successful than you are. Understanding the Bogleheads availability bias is a start. Dealing with it requires periodic reminders that all of us have complex lives with ups and downs, and that more people come to this Forum with their "ups" than with their "downs."

Cheers,
Victoria
Great post. I believe this goes both ways as well. I used to frequent an "advice" type forum for a specific career, where the forum itself was geared towards those having difficulties with their careers or seeking a career change. So as to be expected, the general tone was very negative, and it could lead many to believe that that specific career path was horrible and had nothing but depressed people looking to get out.

Bottom line, lately I've been just trying to stay away from internet forums and the internet in general. The internet is a great resource and has a wealth of information at your fingertips that would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. For example last night I had a sudden craving for a soft-boiled egg, so I looked up how to cook the perfect soft-boiled egg on Youtube. For specific questions about certain topics, the internet is wonderful. But I try to stay away from more "general advice" type issues and instead do what I should have been doing all along - seek out the advice/counsel of friends, family, etc. those that know me best.

OP, honestly, just get off the internet. Stay away from Facebook and the like for a while.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Fallible »

OP, by now you have such excellent advice (some of the most thoughtful and learned advice I've ever seen on the forum) that I doubt I could offer anything more useful. The answer to your topic question seems simple - stop focusing on money, try to understand why you do, and begin focusing on the rest of your life to bring it all into better balance. It's not at all easy, but the advice here can only help.
:thumbsup
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by semiotic »

Thank you for the replies. I've read them all, most three or four times, and I'll be printing out the thread to keep with me. I also now have a few books to add to my reading list.

There's no point being negative-- that certainly won't do anything to make my life better. I sat down last night and came up with a goal to work towards: "to have an occupation that makes use of my skills, training, and passion." I wrote it down on a card, and I'll be carrying it in my pocket until it becomes a reality. I tried to keep it open-ended and positive.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by technovelist »

countofmc wrote:
Bottom line, lately I've been just trying to stay away from internet forums and the internet in general. The internet is a great resource and has a wealth of information at your fingertips that would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. For example last night I had a sudden craving for a soft-boiled egg, so I looked up how to cook the perfect soft-boiled egg on Youtube. For specific questions about certain topics, the internet is wonderful. But I try to stay away from more "general advice" type issues and instead do what I should have been doing all along - seek out the advice/counsel of friends, family, etc. those that know me best.

OP, honestly, just get off the internet. Stay away from Facebook and the like for a while.
Yes, it's a good thing we have this forum to tell people to stay off the internet. :confused
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by ieee488 »

semiotic wrote:I sat down last night and came up with a goal to work towards: "to have an occupation that makes use of my skills, training, and passion."
Right.

And that statement does not mention anything about $75K/year.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Fallible »

ieee488 wrote:
semiotic wrote:I sat down last night and came up with a goal to work towards: "to have an occupation that makes use of my skills, training, and passion."
Right.

And that statement does not mention anything about $75K/year.
Right. :thumbsup
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by coldplay221 »

OP, staying at home on the weekends - why is that a bad thing?!

After being in foreign surroundings the entire week why would you break out and make your way to more foreign surroundings rather than enjoying good food and indoor plumbing with family?! :)

In all seriousness - don't compare. Things that you take for granted - your spouse, your kids, your parents, your health - these don't compare across salary ranges. They offer way more peace of mind than fattened 3-fund portfolios.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by semiotic »

Yea, I wanted to keep it flexible and open ended. I might find an "occupation" as a freelance editor, a new role might open up in my current organization, etc... After giving it some more thought I don't think "To make $75k/yr" would be a healthy goal to have. The money will come... I hope :wink:
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Meg77 »

semiotic wrote:Thank you for the replies. I've read them all, most three or four times, and I'll be printing out the thread to keep with me. I also now have a few books to add to my reading list.

There's no point being negative-- that certainly won't do anything to make my life better. I sat down last night and came up with a goal to work towards: "to have an occupation that makes use of my skills, training, and passion." I wrote it down on a card, and I'll be carrying it in my pocket until it becomes a reality. I tried to keep it open-ended and positive.
You have certainly received lots of good advice and encouragement here. It sounds like you're just having a "quarter-life crisis." It's very common and can look like depression at times. You appear to have all the options in the world, which just makes the pressure to pick something meaningful or important or at least lucrative more overwhelming. It can also cause paralysis and negativity and can cause us to second-guess our choices and end up less satisfied than those who had fewer if any options. I would caution you with regard to trying to find a career or job that will fulfill your passions. Most people use their spare time for that. Even people who end up in the industry where their passion is focused do not usually spend much time directly fulfilling their passions at work. Nearly every employee and even many entrepreneurs are regularly bogged down with bureaucratic life-sucking meetings/technical issues/staff issues/reporting/etc. Most jobs are just that - jobs. Pick one that pays well enough and will still enable you to build a life outside of it.

I started out less than a decade ago making exactly the same salary you are making now, and began putting 15% of it from day one toward retirement (which was easier for me without the burden of student loan debt or kids to feed, etc). If you can start/keep saving at least 10% of your gross income and investing it within retirement accounts, I promise that several things will happen. 1) You will be better off than most Americans including most of your "peers" who earn more than you, and with each passing year you will be better off than a larger chunk of the population. 2) You will sleep soundly knowing that whatever else happens in your personal and financial life, you are taking care of that very important goal. 3) You will be having fun watching compounding interest start to grow your portfolio more than your contributions do just about the time when most others start to save. You will have tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank before you know it.

Finally, I know it sounds really cliché but I honestly recommend that you volunteer a little bit with less fortunate people. Volunteering abroad was one of the most perspective-shifting things I ever did, and I still take a deep breath and close my eyes and think of those people whenever I start to feel less than financially. No matter how hard they ever work most of them will never have access to steady income, clean water, or a good education. It's truly unbelievable how fortunate we all are.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Johno »

Crow Hunter wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:I've read a paper about the Facebook depression. People report on Facebook the best parts of their lives.
Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.

I actually got off of Bragbook(Facebook) a while ago.
Among the many reasons I would't touch Facebook with a ten foot pole. I know people of all generations use it, but the peer pressure is more intense among younger people than for me. Funny, some people make billions on ideas and I say 'Yeah! why can't I ever think of something that brilliant?!' but FB I totally don't get. Get back in touch with people from previous jobs, school way back, etc? I'd just as soon not, generally, except limited people I can keep in touch with the old fashioned way. Exchange stories with current acquaintances on how terrific our life is? Not really; it is a happy, fortunate life but I don't want to rub that in anyone's face (non anonymously), and frankly don't want to feel jealous of those who present something even better, true or not.

On OP I'm way down the line in age and I had a good engineering job at 26, around 70k converted to today's dollars. Still I remember post college as a stressful time compared to college and high school, stress level and self questioning relapsing back towards junior high levels. :D It's another phase of really facing adulthood, starting over as the junior person etc etc. For me the change to a new and better phase of life was meeting my wife, when I was 26, not any professional change.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by Slowmaha »

After reading the following bullets stop reading Bogleheads.org, it gets depressing really quick if you're not making 200k and polishing your golden nest egg (I am not one of these people).

1. Stay out of debt
2. Spend less than you make
3. Invest in the three fund vanguard portfolio

You're still young, make a change NOW into a vocation with a (financial) future, if that is something you care about. Remember, though, there is a lot more to life than money.

Good luck.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by toto238 »

semiotic wrote:Long story short: I'm 26, recently completed my Masters (though I've decided to no longer pursue further graduate study), and have been working for 1 year in an admin-type office job completely unrelated to my degrees (English) on $45,000/yr. In the past year I've finally learned about personal finances/investing. I've been living at home, putting ~60% of my income towards debt repayments and investing, and have managed to raise my net worth from -32k to -7k. I'll be moving out soon with some friends, and while I made up a budget and am able to squirrel away a tiny bit of money... I still feel absolutely horrible about myself.
Something to consider. There's very strong demand right now for Americans/Canadians who speak English in foreign countries. Countries like China, Korea, or Japan pay a premium for someone to teach English classes there. Heck, many European countries have a strong demand for English teachers too. Often times they offer to pay for your full housing costs while you're there. If you have a college degree (especially one in English!) you're basically a shoo-in. Why not spend a few years abroad teaching English? You're not going to make a fortune doing it, but the change of pace may be nice enough that doesn't matter.

Here's a good Business Insider article on how to go about doing it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-g ... ad-2013-10

Looks like the offer for South Korea is especially nice. They set you up with a free 1-bedroom apartment while you're there, you teach for 22-24 hours a week, you get 18 days of paid vacation, health insurance, all on top of a salary that comes out to somewhere around $25k a year in US dollars. When you consider you have no housing costs, and you get a month and a half off twice a year for summer/winter break, it's not a bad deal. Something to consider. They even pay for your airfare.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by semiotic »

Thanks toto238 and Slowmaha.

I will keep those 3 bullet points in mind and try to keep from getting discouraged as long as I'm making progress.

Teaching in Asia is definitely something to keep in the back of my mind. It's nice to know I have an option if I decide things aren't working out in my current situation.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by GerryL »

semiotic wrote:
CFM300 wrote:If you want to write and edit and yet make crazy good money, you should consider corporate communications. Yes, you'll have to work to break into the field. Probably by paying your dues in another field of writing first: journalism, publishing, technical writing, advertising.

Have you considered teaching?
I loved the teaching and lecturing I did in graduate school, but K-12 education in my province requires a 2 year post bac program, which I can't afford at the moment.

Yes, corporate communications is on my radar. I actually did an informational interview with someone in that field, and it seems like something I would enjoy, but I haven't had any luck with the few jobs I've applied to so far.
Semiotic,
Good writing and editing skills are very valuable in the business world. If you decide to apply your skills in the profit sector instead of academia, I suggest you take a few business courses to understand the needs of market-based employers. In any job you need to understand what problems your employer needs solved. Approaching a job interview by addressing a prospective employer's needs will help you get in the door. Try to learn from each interview.

Keep up with the informational interviews. The final question you should always ask is "Can you recommend anyone else I should talk to?" Someday you will be the one who is granting informational interviews to career starters and changers. Recently retired, I speak from experience.
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by ripete »

I'm just going to repeat what others have said, because I feel the more you hear it, the more you might believe it to be true.
1)Don't be envious of those with more. It can lead to a lot of negativity. Rather, think of where you've been, where you are now, and where you might hope to be.
2)Don't take your current situation out of context. You're 26, and you've been living in your young adult life during the Great Recession. There are many, MANY people out there who have zilch, zero, nothing, and are collecting unemployment checks. I'm sure they would look at you and wish they could have a job, any job, just to have a place to get up and go to in the morning.
3) What I'm saying is that while it always appears that the grass is always greener, oftimes, when you poke beneath the surface, you'll find that what you have is pretty darn good.
4) Look at your accomplishments in a positive light, because they really should be viewed that way. You are tracking positively, perhaps not at the rate you'd like to, but nevertheless, you are not tracking negatively.
5) Some people look at their friends and say to themselves, 'hey, almost everyone I know is married, why not me? what's wrong with me?',when the correct attitude would be 'good luck to my friends' and when it's right, it'll happen for me too. The trick is to do what you like, not isolate yourself or worry about everything. Even going out for a walk, which is free, can feel marvelous. You don't have to spend a million bucks to feel that way.
Just be patient with yourself. It's not wrong to want more, but it's wrong to make yourself miserable over it. So, I hope this helps a bit. :shock:
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Re: How can I stop feeling depressed about my finances?

Post by DonCamillo »

semiotic wrote:Yes, I do live in a very HCOL area, and one which is dominated by a particular industry especially congenial to STEM/finance careers. Of course I understand my "fundamental mistake" was choosing an English degree. That is my fault, but unfortunately I do not have access to a time machine.
I do not agree that English was a fundamental mistake. I have an undergraduate liberal arts degree and a graduate STEM degree. My experience in the workplace is that people get hired for their technical skills and promoted for their communication skills. Your English skills are likely to be valuable in any job you have to communicate with other people, especially in writing.

Many good paying jobs today exist at the intersection of several knowledge fields. If you know what you would like to do, pursue it and get the necessary qualifications. But I do have a warning for you. Do not just get the qualifications. Someone who has a passion for a particular job is a much better hire than someone who merely has the qualifications.
Les vieillards aiment à donner de bons préceptes, pour se consoler de n'être plus en état de donner de mauvais exemples. | (François, duc de La Rochefoucauld, maxim 93)
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