Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

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hackermb
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Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by hackermb »

Builder wants 1400 to upgrade to a gas water heater. Is it worth the money?

Options are:

50 Gal Electric Tank Water Heater = 0$
50 Gal Gas Tank Water Heater = +$1,400
ArthurO
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by ArthurO »

go with gas, gas in long run is cheaper, the builder has to run additional gas line to the boiler/heater room wherever that is, in long term the investment will be well worth it, they are just more efficient units.
CincyGuy
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by CincyGuy »

I believe they are more efficient and a quick Google search can probably get you a calculator based on the usage, energy factor, cost per CCF, cost per kwh, etc.

However, a question: Will you already have gas service running to the house (for the furnace?) During the summer, when my gas usage is ONLY for the hot water heater, it kind of sucks to pay a $30 "delivery charge" just to have gas using only 8 CCF. I sometimes wished I had electric so I could turn off my gas in the summer (but hadn't done any cost/benefit analysis on this).
Topic Author
hackermb
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by hackermb »

I already have gas service to the house for the furnance. Basement is unfinished so I could always add it later for likely the same most likely cheaper cost. Is that a correct assumption?
tomd37
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by tomd37 »

Are you talking natural gas already in the area or propane that has to be tanked in? Any other gas appliances serving the home? I would go for natural gas any time I could get it. We have it in our current home for heating, cooking, and hot water.


Edit: We were both writing at the same time....
Tom D.
CincyGuy
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by CincyGuy »

Not sure it would be cheaper to do it later. Mine is about to go, got a quote to get it replaced - $1200. I bet it'll cost ~$200 or more to run the gas lines (tying into the furnace ones, may involve new permits and other things - who knows). May want to just get it done...
tomd37
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by tomd37 »

I sure would want to know what brand and grade the contractor is proposing to install for you. You sure don't want a "builder grade" water heater if you get a choice. What exactly is he proposing to give and do for the $1,400?
Tom D.
Northster
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Northster »

I have pondered switching from electric to gas but at least with rates as they are here it would take a very long time, if ever, for the lower gas cost to compensate for the greater upfront cost. I suggest you get out your utility bills and do the math.
mw1739
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by mw1739 »

Gas is what you want in the long-run for efficiency. I question the $1400 upgrade fee. I'm assuming the 50 gallon electric is already included in your quote, so $1400 extra seems excessive. I glanced at the Home Depot website and looks like gas runs maybe $200 more. Installation is just as easy as an electric so there shouldn't be any upcharge for that. All you need is a gas line to the water heater, which should cost more than a couple hundred. Sounds like he's trying to pad the bill.

Edit: just thought about the possibility of a power vent water heater. I imagine that's what they're quoting as the gas will require ventilation. I still think $1400 over and above the electric cost is likely high.
Topic Author
hackermb
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by hackermb »

This is new construction for a tract home.

The price is the price.

extras over the electric heater should be...
200 for price difference of gas to electric heater
gas line is already ran to that location for furnance so not sure how much additional costs there would be there.
200 for vent pipe
only need 110v for gas not 220v for electric so that should subtract some.

therefore I believe im unnecessarily paying 1000 more to have gas instead of electric.

Will I save 1000 dollars over 10 years?
yosef
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by yosef »

I don't understand why a builder would use electric if the home already has gas available. Costs aside, gas heaters are MUCH nicer. Electric heaters take much longer to heat up in my experience. I can tell you that our gas heater costs my family of 4 about $23-$25 a month to run. I know this because the only other gas items we have (furnace and fireplace) are off during the summer months, so our entire gas bill is attributable to the water heater.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Doom&Gloom »

yosef wrote:I don't understand why a builder would use electric if the home already has gas available. Costs aside, gas heaters are MUCH nicer. Electric heaters take much longer to heat up in my experience. I can tell you that our gas heater costs my family of 4 about $23-$25 a month to run. I know this because the only other gas items we have (furnace and fireplace) are off during the summer months, so our entire gas bill is attributable to the water heater.
This matches my experience. I'd have a difficult time going back to an electric water heater.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

In a power failure, gas will be there for you when electric won't. That seems like a very large charge, however. I would ask them what is costing so much.

I suppose you could always put in a gas hot water heater later. You might ask a plumber to look at a completed house and see what he or she would charge to do that.

In my first house, when the power went out, I had heat, hot water, and a working oven and stove top.
LongerPrimer
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by LongerPrimer »

The builder is thinking of tankless, condensing water heater? :annoyed
tomd37
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by tomd37 »

Dolphin,
Not sure gas will be there for you. If your gas heater has or requires a power vent, electricity runs that vent. No electricity, no power vent.
Tom D.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

tomd37 wrote:Dolphin,
Not sure gas will be there for you. If your gas heater has or requires a power vent, electricity runs that vent. No electricity, no power vent.
No power vent, either for this house or the previous one. I had to look that up to see what it was.
ourbrooks
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by ourbrooks »

LongerPrimer wrote:The builder is thinking of tankless, condensing water heater? :annoyed
My thought as well. $1400 sounds just about right for a whole house tankless.

Indulge yourself. With the tankless, you can take a shower any time you want without worrying that your spouse has just started a tub of laundry or is running the dish washer. You can even have two people taking showers at the same time without worrying about running out - think teenagers in the house. All for only about $10 a month in capital costs and there are even some people who claim that the tankless saves enough in gas to pay for itself. We're willing to pay the $10 just for the convenience.
Topic Author
hackermb
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by hackermb »

I'm going to the builders office tomorrow to verify why the price is 1400 for gas but the email they sent said 50 gal gas $1370. Therefore I don't think its tank less.
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Bengineer
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Bengineer »

The builder / contractor can charge you what he wants to for changes from the agreed on plan.

Practically, if the change is prior to building, the cost difference should be for the water heater itself, the chimney vent ducting and maybe a bit for larger gas piping.

If it's after bulding, you may incur $$$ for plumbing a larger gas supply from the meter inwards. Anecdotal, but I paid $800 to add larger plumbing from the meter in for gas logs, which are maybe 80k btu, which is substantial. Gas is run at very low pressure, so the piping has to be larger for increased supply. If you're going this route and it's pre build, you might think about plumbing for a gas range, dryer and/or gas logs or lighter in the fireplace as well. You don't want to go cheap on your gas plumber. :happy

Slightly OT, but your optimum choice on the type of gas water heater (80% / no power / tank, 9x% condensing / power / tank, 9x% tankless) depends:
  • 80% tanked / no power == reasonable efficiency, hot water with no generator during power outages.
  • 9x% tanked condensing / power == better efficiency, need power during outages, but 120V at fairly low draw.
  • 9x% tankless = highest efficiency, particularly for smaller families / occasional use, need power during outages, but 120V at fairly low draw. Tankless water heaters are complex and require at least annual descaling if you have hard water. That said, the bills for our family of two during the no-heating months for HW with two different tankless WH and a gas dryer have been close to the minimum billing.
Allan
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Allan »

hackermb wrote:Builder wants 1400 to upgrade to a gas water heater. Is it worth the money?

Options are:

50 Gal Electric Tank Water Heater = 0$
50 Gal Gas Tank Water Heater = +$1,400
Sounds high to me, there is not that much difference in price between electric and gas. Of course a gas heater needs to be vented, electric heater needs a #8 wire and a gas heater needs a gas line, so all of that impacts price.

Allan
Raladic
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Raladic »

One point that wasn't brought up here at all so far is conscience for our planet.

"Natural" Gas is a fossil fuel and fracking and the like to source it, as well as burning it has a real impact on the environment.

With electric you get the choice (depending on your energy company) if you want your energy to be neutral to the planet coming from truly renewable sources, you could even go with PV solar and get the energy cleanly and for free(after installation cost has been recouped).

Just something to think about, yes gas will be more efficient and such, but as the world is getting more conscience about what we do to our planet its worth pointing out.
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gatorking
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by gatorking »

I have a fairly new electric water heater and a gas line piped to the location. It isn't worth it for me to trash the electric water heater and replace it with a gas heater. This is essentially the same situation you are in.
The Wizard
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by The Wizard »

Have the builder put in fittings for gas clothes dryer, gas kitchen stove, and gas outdoor grill as well, while he's at it...
Attempted new signature...
Reubin
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Reubin »

ourbrooks wrote:
LongerPrimer wrote:The builder is thinking of tankless, condensing water heater? :annoyed
My thought as well. $1400 sounds just about right for a whole house tankless.

Indulge yourself. With the tankless, you can take a shower any time you want without worrying that your spouse has just started a tub of laundry or is running the dish washer. You can even have two people taking showers at the same time without worrying about running out - think teenagers in the house. All for only about $10 a month in capital costs and there are even some people who claim that the tankless saves enough in gas to pay for itself. We're willing to pay the $10 just for the convenience.
Can anyone recommend a good whole house electric tankless on-demand water heater? There are only two of us in the house. Will it require a 220V line? Thanks!
tibbitts
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by tibbitts »

Reubin wrote:
ourbrooks wrote:
LongerPrimer wrote:The builder is thinking of tankless, condensing water heater? :annoyed
My thought as well. $1400 sounds just about right for a whole house tankless.

Indulge yourself. With the tankless, you can take a shower any time you want without worrying that your spouse has just started a tub of laundry or is running the dish washer. You can even have two people taking showers at the same time without worrying about running out - think teenagers in the house. All for only about $10 a month in capital costs and there are even some people who claim that the tankless saves enough in gas to pay for itself. We're willing to pay the $10 just for the convenience.
Can anyone recommend a good whole house electric tankless on-demand water heater? There are only two of us in the house. Will it require a 220V line? Thanks!
From what I recall (not much - gave up after being shocked by the numbers) I'm thinking 25,000 watts, and yes 220. What would that require - a 400 amp panel?
Allan
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Allan »

tibbitts wrote: From what I recall (not much - gave up after being shocked by the numbers) I'm thinking 25,000 watts, and yes 220. What would that require - a 400 amp panel?
The size of the service is not dependent upon one circuit, but the total load. A 200 amp service my be more than sufficient.

Allan
killjoy2012
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by killjoy2012 »

Reubin wrote: Can anyone recommend a good whole house electric tankless on-demand water heater? There are only two of us in the house. Will it require a 220V line? Thanks!
Electric tankless whole house water heaters are bad idea IMO. They normally draw 60-150A @ 220V. If that doesn't mean anything to you, that's about as much as the entire electrical feed into a typical house. You'd have to consult an electrician, but you're talking at a minimum of upgrading your electrical service to 200A, or more likely, having a second drop to your house just for the water heater.

Natural gas whole house tankless make A LOT more sense, where people have NG available.

Tankless looks attractive on paper, but I'd personally would rather have a tank. First, for people in cold climates, it's common that a tankless cannot heat the cold water coming into the house during the winter to the spec temp. In other words, it cannot add enough heat to line fast enough to maintain temp on a running tap. Also, in a disaster or SHTF scenario, I like the idea that I have 50 gallons of clean, treated, drinkable water in my basement.
tibbitts
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by tibbitts »

Allan wrote:
tibbitts wrote: From what I recall (not much - gave up after being shocked by the numbers) I'm thinking 25,000 watts, and yes 220. What would that require - a 400 amp panel?
The size of the service is not dependent upon one circuit, but the total load. A 200 amp service my be more than sufficient.

Allan
Yes, but if the heater alone can pull 150A, that doesn't leave much for the rest of the house.
derosa
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by derosa »

How much hot water will you use?

How long will you live in the house?

Hot water out of the tap is hot water - the warmth of the water doesn't depend on the heat source used to make it hot.

Some of the comments about the difference between the 2 could be the length of the runs from the heater to the tap, insulation if any around the run, how old the heater in question is, etc.

We are fortunate that our gas heater is vented up a chimney and doesn't require power vent. But our downstairs gas furnace does require a power vent due to its efficiency.
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RustyShackleford
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by RustyShackleford »

tomd37 wrote:Are you talking natural gas already in the area or propane that has to be tanked in?
If the answer is propane, forget it. Electric is almost certainly less expensive to operate (as well as to purchase and install).
protagonist
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by protagonist »

How much you save obviously depends on usage.

When I bought my home in 2009 it came with an old, inefficient, big hot water heater (electric). I figured, when it died, I would replace it with gas. It's still going strong and must be at least ten years old.

My electric bill for July (everything including HW heater, refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave, washing machine, window air conditioners, ceiling fans, lighting, computer, stereo, etc. for a 4 br home) came to $35.54. The previous month it was $43.12.

I can't imagine that I would recoup an investment in a $1400. HW heater over the lifetime of the heater.
Easy Rhino
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Re: Gas Water Heater Upgrade worth the $$$

Post by Easy Rhino »

We have a gas water heater. Actually a newish one because the one that came with the house died on new year's day. I like it more than electric BUT.

with a $1400 price difference, it's not going to pay for itself ever before it breaks. maybe after 30 years when you replace water heaters a few times.

if you can't get the builder to install gas WH for less than $1400, ask how much you can save by not having a water heater at all, and leave space for a plumber to come in and install one later?
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