The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Nicolas
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Nicolas »

mickeyd wrote:TR was awarded the Medal of Honor, Noble Peace Prize and elected President of USA. Don't believe that has been done by anyone else.

I'm Dee lighted to be viewing it.
Bully! My wife and I watched every episode and never once did either of us fall asleep -- loved it.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Helloeeze »

I am enjoying it but husband keeps falling asleep. We enjoyed visiting his childhood townhouse last year in New York. Nice little museum in it.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Remarkable story of how FDR lifted the country despite living with polio....very inspirational.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Leesbro63 »

It was interesting to me how both TR and FDR had challenges similar to what we see today. We tend to think that we live in a new era...and yeah I guess it is. But history does seem to rhyme.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Working2notWork »

Leesbro63 wrote:It was interesting to me how both TR and FDR had challenges similar to what we see today. We tend to think that we live in a new era...and yeah I guess it is. But history does seem to rhyme.
As far as politics go, nothing has really changed. Most of the time, it's the rich that get into power. What I loved about late 1800's and early 1900's upper class was that they left politics to the "un-gentlemanly" people; I think old money had it right! :o
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by sschullo »

tennisplyr wrote:Remarkable story of how FDR lifted the country despite living with polio....very inspirational.
I didn't know FDR was so active with helping polio victims at his Warm Springs center. They made a point that his polio helped him connect with people.

My father loved FDR. My dad was a quiet man until I saw him throw a pillow at our new TV in 1956 on election night when Eisenhower beat Stevenson, he was so angry!
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by beardsworth »

Leesbro63 wrote:
cfs wrote:TR in action

Was able to watch TR in action on PBS last night, at one point I was surprised on how bad he was looking after his expedition to The River of Doubt in Brazil, and he was only 50 years old then.
Yes, I also was surprised at how those very old films clearly showed the progressive aging of TR. I already knew that FDR looked progressively haggard as he approached the end. . . .
Late-life pictures of FDR look like near-death, as of course he was. The enormous stresses of the war, and the depression which preceded it, during most of which he was regularly attacked in the most vitriolic terms by some segments of the public, press, and politicians, must have taken an immense toll, accelerated by his lifelong smoking. But the amazing thing, is that this man, who looks so elderly and alarmingly worn-out in photos taken in 1944 and 1945, was only 63 when he died that April. On the one hand, this tells us something of the stress of that office. On the other, it reminds us of how much we've learned about nutrition, good lifestyle habits, and medical care since then.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Abe »

I've been watching it. Very interesting. My problem is I go to sleep and miss the last part. :happy
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by pshonore »

I was somewhat surprised to hear that FDR as Asst Navy Secretary used a US Navy Destroyer to travel back and forth for his summer vacations from NYC to Campobello Island on the Maine/Canadian border and evidently steered the ship. Sounds like a waste of taxpayers money. He also designed his own personal flag. The Admirals must have loved him. I don't think it has come upon the show but I think there was an incident during WW II when he sent government transportation (ship or plane) to pick up his dog Fala.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by ruralavalon »

cfs wrote:Teddy was fully qualified.

Awesome resume, TR was fully qualified for ANY office:

- Assistant Secretary of the Navy
- Governor of New York
- President of the United States
- Colonel, US Army
- CO, 1st US Volunteer Cavalry
- Spanish American War Veteran
- Combat Action, Battles of Las Guasimas
- Combat Action, Battles of San Juan Hill
- Politician
- Historian
- Author
- Explorer
- Conservationist
- Harvard University alumnus
- Columbia Law School alumnus
- Awarded Nobel Peace Prize in 1906
- Awarded Medal of Honor (Posthumously, 2001)

And the list goes on . . .
Also cattle rancher.

What a life!
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Working2notWork »

ruralavalon wrote:
cfs wrote:Teddy was fully qualified.

Awesome resume, TR was fully qualified for ANY office:

- Assistant Secretary of the Navy
- Governor of New York
- President of the United States
- Colonel, US Army
- CO, 1st US Volunteer Cavalry
- Spanish American War Veteran
- Combat Action, Battles of Las Guasimas
- Combat Action, Battles of San Juan Hill
- Politician
- Historian
- Author
- Explorer
- Conservationist
- Harvard University alumnus
- Columbia Law School alumnus
- Awarded Nobel Peace Prize in 1906
- Awarded Medal of Honor (Posthumously, 2001)

And the list goes on . . .
Also cattle rancher.

What a life!
Also assassination survivor!
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

Leesbro63 wrote:
cfs wrote:TR in action

Was able to watch TR in action on PBS last night, at one point I was surprised on how bad he was looking after his expedition to The River of Doubt in Brazil, and he was only 50 years old then.
Yes, I also was surprised at how those very old films clearly showed the progressive aging of TR. I already knew that FDR looked progressively haggard as he approached the end. I never knew the whole story of the "Bull Moose" thing. Teddy's 1912 3rd part run against incumbent Republican Taft and challenger Democrat Wilson was very similar to the 1992 election with incumbent Republican Bush1 being challenged by Democrat Bill Clinton, with the 3rd party Ross Perot.
It felt more to me like John Anderson as the rejected GOP candidate (he probably never really had a chance in that nomination run) vs. Reagan and Carter in 1980. Some say he accounted for the margin of victory (I understand that that is doubtful).

Or perhaps Strom Thurmond running his independent southern candidacy in 1948 (from memory it was 1948). Again I think that was expected to hand Governor Thomas Dewey the presidency, but Truman came from behind, and in those days polls weren't sophisticated or rapid, so surprised everyone.

I cannot recall if George Wallace ever ran as a third party (in 1968 or 1972)? There was a risk he would have done that in 1976, I think, but he was shot by Arthur Bremer. The suffering seemed to make Wallace a more compassionate guy in his later years in politics-- reached out to African Americans.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

pshonore wrote:I was somewhat surprised to hear that FDR as Asst Navy Secretary used a US Navy Destroyer to travel back and forth for his summer vacations from NYC to Campobello Island on the Maine/Canadian border and evidently steered the ship. Sounds like a waste of taxpayers money. He also designed his own personal flag. The Admirals must have loved him. I don't think it has come upon the show but I think there was an incident during WW II when he sent government transportation (ship or plane) to pick up his dog Fala.
In the context of the time these sorts of acts were not unusual I don't think. Politicians were paid very little (and did not have access to some of the lucrative consultancies and lobbying posts they now have when they leave politics) so they used the perks of office. Conversely many politicians (such as FDR) had family money behind them.

Public scrutiny was less. A politician nowadays with FDR's personal life would be unlikely to get so far (in the US, as opposed to France where having a mistress seems to be a requirement of ascendancy to the presidency ;-)).

I don't know the Admirals loved him, but as President he drove through the 'Two Ocean Navy' act before WW2 which gave the US the ships to recover after Pearl Harbor and other battles like the Solomons Campaign and drive through to final victory over Japan (whilst playing a significant role in the defeat of Nazi Germany).

FDR had an extraordinary ability to attract incredibly talented men and women, and set them loose on great tasks: George Marshall to plan and win WW2; the team that created Social Security, etc. Conversely he would set people off on *opposite* tracks on the same issue , to fight with each other, and no one was ever really secure that they knew what FDR wanted or where they stood with him (a trick Hitler and Stalin also used). Many people very loyal to him were hurt by him or felt betrayed. And yet none of us would doubt his greatness as a president.

The thing is great men tend to have great flaws. Flawless men tend to be dullards. Carter was of the highest personal moral integrity (don't dig too deeply into how he won at least one gubernatorial election-- Georgia was a different place way back) but is not rated highly amongst presidents (and as an ex president, is probably rated higher than any other). Richard Nixon was paranoid and corrupt, the tapes show an absolutely awful man-- paranoia, antisemitism, willful disregard of the law etc., yet both his domestic and foreign policy achievements were significant and showed great creativity. JFK was a paragon of leadership and courage, yet he was having an affair with a mobster's moll, there was stuff there that would have crippled his second term had it come out. LBJ was a bully, a braggart, a shameless liar, Lady Bird Johnson became rich via what we would now term corruption and yet, yet, LBJ brought the greatest advance in American equality since Abraham Lincoln.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

Leesbro63 wrote:It was interesting to me how both TR and FDR had challenges similar to what we see today. We tend to think that we live in a new era...and yeah I guess it is. But history does seem to rhyme.
FDR faced bigger challenges. The infrastructure that FDR put in place is still in place, largely, in these latest crises. FDIC etc. When FDR was elected president something like 2 banks were going bust *every day*.

Teddy? Not sure. The US was just becoming a world leader, it was not yet obvious (to most) that the sun was setting over the British Empire and the other European Empires, but in fact the US was well on the way to becoming the largest economy and the greatest military and political power. The trainwreck that was WW1 and WW2 probably accelerated the process of European decline by 40 years.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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TR took a 11 month hunting trip after his presidency, "Smithsonian–Roosevelt African Expedition".

The numbers kills that TR and is son took were nuts, at least in todays world it seems like it anyway.

The big game list:
17 lions
3 leopards
7 cheetahs
9 hyena.
11 elephants
10 buffalos
11 black rhinos
9 white rhinos.

That does not include all the non game kills, antelopes etc.

Must have had a very understanding wife, Honey I'm going to take a 11 month hunting trip, be back soon.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Comments by George Will

Very interesting comments by George Will last night (did I hear this right?) ranking George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR at the top of the list.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Valuethinker wrote:
pshonore wrote:I was somewhat surprised to hear that FDR as Asst Navy Secretary used a US Navy Destroyer to travel back and forth for his summer vacations from NYC to Campobello Island on the Maine/Canadian border and evidently steered the ship. Sounds like a waste of taxpayers money. He also designed his own personal flag. The Admirals must have loved him. I don't think it has come upon the show but I think there was an incident during WW II when he sent government transportation (ship or plane) to pick up his dog Fala.
In the context of the time these sorts of acts were not unusual I don't think. Politicians were paid very little (and did not have access to some of the lucrative consultancies and lobbying posts they now have when they leave politics) so they used the perks of office. Conversely many politicians (such as FDR) had family money behind them.
Did not TR have a pile of PACT money (not sure what they called it back then)? Some of his lobbyist we not very happy with him, something to the tune of "We bought the son-of-a-%$^%$ an he won't do what we tell him". I would be curious how much cash changed hands.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by pshonore »

Valuethinker wrote:
pshonore wrote:I was somewhat surprised to hear that FDR as Asst Navy Secretary used a US Navy Destroyer to travel back and forth for his summer vacations from NYC to Campobello Island on the Maine/Canadian border and evidently steered the ship. Sounds like a waste of taxpayers money. He also designed his own personal flag. The Admirals must have loved him. I don't think it has come upon the show but I think there was an incident during WW II when he sent government transportation (ship or plane) to pick up his dog Fala.
In the context of the time these sorts of acts were not unusual I don't think. Politicians were paid very little (and did not have access to some of the lucrative consultancies and lobbying posts they now have when they leave politics) so they used the perks of office. Conversely many politicians (such as FDR) had family money behind them.

Public scrutiny was less. A politician nowadays with FDR's personal life would be unlikely to get so far (in the US, as opposed to France where having a mistress seems to be a requirement of ascendancy to the presidency ;-)).

I don't know the Admirals loved him, but as President he drove through the 'Two Ocean Navy' act before WW2 which gave the US the ships to recover after Pearl Harbor and other battles like the Solomons Campaign and drive through to final victory over Japan (whilst playing a significant role in the defeat of Nazi Germany).

FDR had an extraordinary ability to attract incredibly talented men and women, and set them loose on great tasks: George Marshall to plan and win WW2; the team that created Social Security, etc. Conversely he would set people off on *opposite* tracks on the same issue , to fight with each other, and no one was ever really secure that they knew what FDR wanted or where they stood with him (a trick Hitler and Stalin also used). Many people very loyal to him were hurt by him or felt betrayed. And yet none of us would doubt his greatness as a president.

The thing is great men tend to have great flaws. Flawless men tend to be dullards. Carter was of the highest personal moral integrity (don't dig too deeply into how he won at least one gubernatorial election-- Georgia was a different place way back) but is not rated highly amongst presidents (and as an ex president, is probably rated higher than any other). Richard Nixon was paranoid and corrupt, the tapes show an absolutely awful man-- paranoia, antisemitism, willful disregard of the law etc., yet both his domestic and foreign policy achievements were significant and showed great creativity. JFK was a paragon of leadership and courage, yet he was having an affair with a mobster's moll, there was stuff there that would have crippled his second term had it come out. LBJ was a bully, a braggart, a shameless liar, Lady Bird Johnson became rich via what we would now term corruption and yet, yet, LBJ brought the greatest advance in American equality since Abraham Lincoln.
Yes the press evidently had a great respect for FDR. I think his 30 year affair with Lucy Mercer(?) was well known to the press but was never reported on. That would not be tolerated today. Also there are hardly any pictures showing his disability. Of course media coverage today is 10000 times what is was back then.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

cfs wrote:Comments by George Will

Very interesting comments by George Will last night (did I hear this right?) ranking George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR at the top of the list.
US historians publish various lists.

The thing is, the closer ones are soft targets. Abraham Lincoln was reviled when he was president.

The presidents who shaped America's 'destiny' if you will only become clear in the long run.

I for one would include Dwight Eisenhower: managed to avoid using US airpower to help the French at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 (one proposal included using nuclear weapons)-- we can argue the toss whether Ike got the US more or less into Vietnam, but he had a healthy scepticism of military intervention; built the Interstate Highway System (like it or lump it, it has changed America profoundly-- the largest civic works project in American history); the post Sputnik science and engineering rush (that brought things like the Internet).

LBJ would be another for me. Yes, Vietnam, but it's hard to believe any US president (who was conceivably electable) would have avoided that particular trap. He passed the legislation that the Southern Filibuster had held for 100 years.

Bush the First for seeing the US through the First Gulf War, and through the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR without some catastrophic armed conflict.

Nixon for detente, the first meaningful arms limitation talks with USSR. Rapproachment with China, surely the single most important US act of the 21st century so far. Clean Air and Clean Water Acts.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Thanks for the listing.

Thanks Valuethinker for the listing--"Roosevelt the First" and "Bush the First" had the best resume when they took office--note that my opinion is based on their resume.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Valuethinker, it is interesting to get your perspective from across the pond. Your mentions of Eisenhower and Bush I were very interesting to me. I have long felt that both were very underrated as Presidents.

I will agree that FDR should rank as one of our greatest Presidents. His administration built a lot of great infrastructure that build a foundation for prosperity later on. FDR also built a very good system of securities regulation. Social Security should rank as another achievement. Of course, he is remembered as the war time president.

Not a big fan of LBJ however. He deserves credit for the Civil Rights Act, he was the only person at the time who could have pushed this through.

Not a huge Nixon fan either though I acknowledge his foreign policy achievements.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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nedsaid wrote:
Not a big fan of LBJ however. He deserves credit for the Civil Rights Act, he was the only person at the time who could have pushed this through.

Not a huge Nixon fan either though I acknowledge his foreign policy achievements.
Both had a tragic flaw. LBJ it was Vietnam. But he was America's most parliamentary president, and the VRA and the CRA passed-- something no previous president had been able to do anything about (not least, JFK). Nobody is talking about dismantling Medicare, either.

Nixon? Again, an almost Shakespearian character. 'You won't have Richard Nixon to kick around any more'. A man whose ambition and drive flowed from a deep sense of grievance, of paranoia. The dishonour he brought to the office has had lasting harm. *But* if we are thinking long term, then Clean Water and Clean Air Act have had big impacts. And in terms of the 21st century, the story of the 21st century (so far) is about how the US and China deal with each other in light of China's rising economic political and military power. And Kissinger and Nixon, well 'only Nixon can go to China' as Mr. Spock put it so well ;-).
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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cfs wrote:Thanks for the listing.

Thanks Valuethinker for the listing--"Roosevelt the First" and "Bush the First" had the best resume when they took office--note that my opinion is based on their resume.
I was responding to George Will's listing, which is pretty conventional amongst American historians and pundits.

Had Lincoln lived, The Reconstruction and its eventual failure would have tested him as it did his successors. Had JFK lived, his second term would likely have been dominated by personal scandals and by the problem of Vietnam.

Judging people on their resumes, pre power? Then I'd give it to Lyndon Johnson, surely one of the most effective legislators in American history.

I worry with CVs you get the William Westmoreland effect. A capable and brave man promoted above his abilities. Another general George B McClellan if you will. By contrast Ulysses S Grant had failed at most things in his life, and was known as a man who struggled with alcohol. And yet he would go into the pantheon of history as one of America's greatest generals (if then one if its least accomplished presidents).

Woodrow Wilson had a pretty stellar CV. I wouldn't judge his presidency so well (although there were some good parts)**.

Harry S Truman had a distinctly mediocre CV. In domestic legislative terms his presidency was a non event. In foreign policy Korea had degenerated into another quagmire-- had he run again he would have been defeated. Yet, I think, most of us would express an admiration for the haberdasher from St. Louis and his accomplishments*. I cannot find it on the web, but Alastair Cooke had a very moving rendition of the former president (the last ex president to be financially strapped-- he had to sell the family farm), at a lunch in a restaurant in New York. Word got out, and by the time he left the luncheon, the streets were packed with onlookers, waiting for their president-- Truman was taken aback. Of all the postwar presidents he had the greatest touch for the common man.

* the desegregation of the US military would give the country Colin S Powell and Condoleeza Rice. And that would lead on to other things.

** I don't know enough about the factors behind the segregation of the US civil service that Wilson enacted. But it seems a mean and cruel thing, from the perspective of 100 years thence.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by tennisplyr »

Why are people so critical and love to see others fail. It's no wonder there is anger, conflict and wars, we are our own worst enemy. If God came down from heaven people would find faults with him. We are what we are, taking pot shots at others does nothing.....it's so easy to be a critic.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by ripete »

Leesbro63 wrote:It was interesting to me how both TR and FDR had challenges similar to what we see today. We tend to think that we live in a new era...and yeah I guess it is. But history does seem to rhyme.

My thoughts exactly, as I was watching. eerie how similar the times, choices, public opinions, politics, etc. etc. are.....
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by john94549 »

Loved the series. Always a fan of TR. As a child, growing up (referring to myself, in the 50's), he was always a model of energy, honesty, and direction.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by beyou »

For those who find TR fascinating, and want to read a bit more, there are a series
of books by Edmund Morris that are the definitive story of TR.
Warning, very long detailed books, but I enjoyed them.
PBS has been nice to see the photos that go with the story I already had in my head.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by crg11 »

Started watching last night. I was hooked within 5 minutes. Loved the first episode, can't wait to watch the rest.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Sconie »

An interesting and inspirational series, but quite unbalanced in terms of painting a fair and accurate picture of both TR and FDR. For example, Burns totally glossed-over FDR's attempt to pack the Supreme Court in 1937.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

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Closing chapter.

Thanks everyone for your good comments. Watched the last episode last night, overall great work by the producers and good job by the historians interviewed. Now--at least on my side of the keyboard--here are a couple of History Lessons Learned during the week [warning, this is not a political commentary]: (1) Not much changed in politics, different faces but the same mentality and same tactics; (2) The media used to respect the office of the president; (3) One big difference noticed is the tons of money now collected by the political parties and politicians to run the campaigns, I did not see anyone collecting money, there was no mention of how much money the candidate had used in running the campaign (in any of the episodes or I totally missed that part). Again, thanks everyone for all the good comments. Closing now.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

cfs wrote:Closing chapter.

Thanks everyone for your good comments. Watched the last episode last night, overall great work by the producers and good job by the historians interviewed. Now--at least on my side of the keyboard--here are a couple of History Lessons Learned during the week [warning, this is not a political commentary]: (1) Not much changed in politics, different faces but the same mentality and same tactics; (2) The media used to respect the office of the president; (3) One big difference noticed is the tons of money now collected by the political parties and politicians to run the campaigns, I did not see anyone collecting money, there was no mention of how much money the candidate had used in running the campaign (in any of the episodes or I totally missed that part). Again, thanks everyone for all the good comments. Closing now.
Just on money TV wasn't a significant factor. The TV ad market is huge. It would be interesting to know how much FDR spent on radio ads, but TR of course none of the above. Total political spending (all races) in a presidential election year on TV (including groups not aligned with either candidate) must run to $1bn (guessing).

Technology generally has altered how politics works. Things like the 24 hour news cycle. And how people are reached. Direct mail was very important (more 1960s+) but it's also quite expensive- -technology lowers that cost.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by SpringMan »

Just finished the first three episodes. TR was a remarkable man. Many of us baby boomers do not share his hawkish attitude towards war because we witnessed the Vietnam war and more recently wars like the Iraq war. I was saddened that TR lost his son that he himself indirectly steered into the great war. I am a real fan of Ken Burns and all his documentaries. So much better than other shows available on TV. Looking forward to watching the remaining episodes.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by tadamsmar »

cfs wrote:Comments by George Will

Very interesting comments by George Will last night (did I hear this right?) ranking George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR at the top of the list.
The aggregate of many ranking has Lincoln, FDR, Washington as the top 3 in that order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... ted_States

FDR is in the top 3 in every ranking.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by ruralavalon »

blevine wrote:For those who find TR fascinating, and want to read a bit more, there are a series
of books by Edmund Morris that are the definitive story of TR.
Warning, very long detailed books, but I enjoyed them.
PBS has been nice to see the photos that go with the story I already had in my head.
Also read The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey, by Candice Millard, the story of his little remembered exploration of a Brazilian river after his 1912 election loss. A very interesting and compelling story.
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Geologist
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Geologist »

My mother (89), who usually has trouble finding things worth watching on TV, was sad this morning because she just spent the whole week watching the Roosevelts every evening. She doesn't know what to watch again.
Leesbro63
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Leesbro63 »

Geologist wrote:My mother (89), who usually has trouble finding things worth watching on TV, was sad this morning because she just spent the whole week watching the Roosevelts every evening. She doesn't know what to watch again.
I agree that it was a good nightly TV activity in a sea of channels with not much else to watch! I really enjoyed the final episode.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

tadamsmar wrote:
cfs wrote:Comments by George Will

Very interesting comments by George Will last night (did I hear this right?) ranking George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR at the top of the list.
The aggregate of many ranking has Lincoln, FDR, Washington as the top 3 in that order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... ted_States

FDR is in the top 3 in every ranking.
The rankings I clicked on had Woodrow Wilson fairly high up. And James Polk (I really cannot remember anything about Polk). And Andrew Jackson. All of those give me pause.

I think things get golden in the distant glow of memory. And so it is forgotten how much Abraham Lincoln was reviled at the time. You could argue he was a total chancer who risked the Union and, in the end, won very little for blacks (in practice). I wouldn't generally take that view, but I can see how it might emerge.

Truman we should remember was one of the least popular presidents in history (that poll is not that old, so I am assuming later presidents as well, rather than earlier) when he left office.

I think what really matters is enduring legacy. So Lincoln and Washington, of course. Also FDR. But also LBJ. And Eisenhower. What matters about Ike is not 'Happy Days' memories of American civil life (deep storm clouds were brewing, most especially over civil rights) but the Interstate Highways and the post Sputnik science boom (to which I attribute the creation of the Internet).
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by mickeyd »

TR was a remarkable man. Many of us baby boomers do not share his hawkish attitude towards war because we witnessed the Vietnam war and more recently wars like the Iraq war.
Many other boomers have witnessed these conflicts at a closer range and understand that if your nation calls for you to fight, you go and fight.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by tadamsmar »

Valuethinker wrote:
tadamsmar wrote:
cfs wrote:Comments by George Will

Very interesting comments by George Will last night (did I hear this right?) ranking George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR at the top of the list.
The aggregate of many ranking has Lincoln, FDR, Washington as the top 3 in that order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... ted_States

FDR is in the top 3 in every ranking.
The rankings I clicked on had Woodrow Wilson fairly high up. And James Polk (I really cannot remember anything about Polk). And Andrew Jackson. All of those give me pause.
Polk added more that 1/3 to the territory of the USA. He is the highest ranking US president to serve only one term. His secretary of state Buchanan ranks first among secretaries of state and last (or close to it) among presidents.

Grant is the lowest ranking president to serve 2 full terms. An example of a great technical leader (as general) who was a lousy manager when promoted to president.
Last edited by tadamsmar on Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by skepticalobserver »

I've done quite a bit of reading on TR and FDR and was surprised by the amount of detail included in the series. For the FDR segments I particularly enjoyed newsreel footage that probably has not been seen since the 1930's and 1940's.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by SpringMan »

mickeyd wrote:
TR was a remarkable man. Many of us baby boomers do not share his hawkish attitude towards war because we witnessed the Vietnam war and more recently wars like the Iraq war.
Many other boomers have witnessed these conflicts at a closer range and understand that if your nation calls for you to fight, you go and fight.
Not necessarily so since we have all volunteers today, no more draft, so one does have a choice. Do you assume all wars our country gets into are for betterment and for valid reasons and that we are never lied to by our government? I have lost friends in Vietnam that had parents that spun WWII stories glorifying war which encouraged them to enlist. TR apparently did this with his children too and lost one. Children are impressionable.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by ryuns »

Apropos the previous comments, but back to the OP--I'm actually watching Burns' massive "The War" about WWII. It's quite interesting the reflections that one has in an age of a volunteer army. There's a sense of wistfulness of so many people coming together to contribute to a singular cause. There's also the massive, incomprehensible amount of human suffering that resulted, that's simply on a scale that I can't begin to empathize with even the idea of pretty much any of it. From living on the front lines, to losing people close to you, to forced internment, to the actual pain and suffering experienced by the millions of casualties. And, of course, these films deliberately focus on the US and leave out the comparably larger suffering of many other combatants.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by tadamsmar »

Here's a dissenting view on the Josephus Daniels thing:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/09/27/ ... t-fdr.html

I personally don't know the facts, but as a resident of NC, it was a bit jarring to hear one of our most accomplished favorite son's get the ax from Ken Burns.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Valuethinker »

ryuns wrote:Apropos the previous comments, but back to the OP--I'm actually watching Burns' massive "The War" about WWII. It's quite interesting the reflections that one has in an age of a volunteer army. There's a sense of wistfulness of so many people coming together to contribute to a singular cause. There's also the massive, incomprehensible amount of human suffering that resulted, that's simply on a scale that I can't begin to empathize with even the idea of pretty much any of it. From living on the front lines, to losing people close to you, to forced internment, to the actual pain and suffering experienced by the millions of casualties. And, of course, these films deliberately focus on the US and leave out the comparably larger suffering of many other combatants.
History lets us forget the people opposed to war. Isolationism was a huge sentiment particularly in the Midwest. The introduction of conscription was a major election issue in 1940. But the GOP candidate, Wendell Wilkie, took an unusually principled stand and refused to run against it because he felt America needed it.

Paul Fussell, an accomplished professor of literature, served as a boy soldier during WW2 in northern Europe. His books are myth-busting, and eye opening, and a good antidote to too much 'Band of Brothers' and 'Saving Private Ryan'.

It's not that we weren't in the right, we were. And we were less odious than our greatest ally, the Red Army and the Soviet Union. We did lots of things which were dubious (much of the strategic bombing offensives against Germany and Japan) and of limited military value. But we were fare less odious than our enemies. However it wasn't all 'pull together' back home-- there was black marketeering, corruption, prejudice etc. Human nature won out.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by tadamsmar »

According to the book A Man called Intrepid Roosevelt leaked a fake war plan to the isolationist newspaper Chicago Tribune to goad the Hitler into declaring war on us, since he had no hope of getting Congress to declare war on Germany. The leak resulted in these headlines:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2815901/posts

The fake plan contained some info the Germans already knew plus some misinformation. British intelligence is said to have helped prepare the documents.

Pearl Harbor happened 3 days later so it's not clear how important the leak was in goading Hitler to declare war on us.

But, even after Pearl Harbor, Congress was in no rush to declare war on Germany.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by bru »

DVR'd this and finished watching it the other day. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Maybe it was the black and white photography and video but both TR and FDR looked much older than they actually were whenever they showed them. They say being President ages you but even when TR became president at 42 he looked much older. FDR at age 63 looked like he was in his 70's or 80's.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by 22twain »

bru wrote:Maybe it was the black and white photography and video but both TR and FDR looked much older than they actually were whenever they showed them.
I think the B&W film of that era recorded colors in a way that caused flesh tones to look unnatural, and commercial movie productions had to use makeup or careful lighting to compensate for it.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by denovo »

22twain wrote:
bru wrote:Maybe it was the black and white photography and video but both TR and FDR looked much older than they actually were whenever they showed them.
I think the B&W film of that era recorded colors in a way that caused flesh tones to look unnatural, and commercial movie productions had to use makeup or careful lighting to compensate for it.
Can't speak to FDR, but for TR I think facial hair makes people look older.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by pshonore »

Neither wore "fashionable" glasses either.
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Re: The Roosevelts, PBS special

Post by Leesbro63 »

Eleanor also looked old. She died at age 78. Most healthy 78 year old women today look much much younger than Eleanor.
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