Vanguard Lost $50k

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reason-logic
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Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by reason-logic »

Need some advice. I made a mutual fund purchase of $50k on 8-29-14. On 9-2, Vanguard transferred the 50k from my bank account, then transferred another 50k (for a total of 100k) via ACH. I noticed on 9-3, called my bank they confirmed Vanguard requested the funds and the bank transferred the 100k to them.

I checked my Vanguard account on line and the second 50k was shown as a pending order (duplicate) for the same mutual fund from 8-29. I called my Flagship representative on 9-3 who promised to investigate. I heard nothing, so on 9-4 I checked the Vanguard site, the pending transaction was gone (but the 50k was not in any account). I called again, the Vanguard rep said the 50k was "missing" and he had the situation assigned to some special transaction department to investigate. He promised to call me back that day. I heard nothing.

On 9-5 I called my Flagship rep again, got voice mail, so I transferred to the call center. I demanded to speak to someone in charge, but was told all management were in meetings. I then stated I would close my account if I could not speak to someone in management. I was put on hold for 30 minutes then finally spoke with my Flagship reps manager, he then assigned this to another Flagship representative, who then called and said they still cannot find my money, they were still looking and could not give me a date when this would be resolved.

So I am still out 50k.

I have over 5m in Vanguard but this incident has shaken my trust.

My questions are:

1. Should I close my account with Vanguard, or am I being emotional and cutting off my nose to spite my face?
2. If I close account, is there another brokerage where I can transfer my current mutual funds and buy and sell Vanguard funds without a fee?
3. Is there any way it can find a decision maker in Vanguard as I feel I am being shuffled around?
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

I'm laughing because BoA did worse by me. It took them about 3 weeks to figure it out and get my money back.

My advice would be to relax and let Vanguard do its work. They know about it, but they will not put a team of 20 people on it, so it will take some time. Plus they do not work on the weekends.

And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.

PS: If you had signed up for the WellsFargo PMA package a few years ago, then you would be able to buy/sell Vanguard funds for free.
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123
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by 123 »

I wouldn't worry about it that much. You may not be the only one this happened to that day (maybe that was the reason for the meeting). Maybe you should complain to your bank that the second withdrawal was not authorized and have them lead the settling operation with Vanguard. Sometimes it's not practical to try to be in the middle and fix things on both sides yourself.
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adam1712
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by adam1712 »

Obviously this is concerning, but based on the story I'd be 99% sure it was a banking transaction error and not fraud. The chances of the bank and Vanguard not being able to make you whole I'm guessing are slim. I would not complicate matters by threatening or taking money out of Vanguard right now. When you talk to Vanguard again, I would make it very clear that you still don't have $50K and that you expect them to cover any overdraft fees or complications that come up but wouldn't bother with the threats to leave.

Overall, I wouldn't stress out about it much though. It's going to take a little time, but I'd wait to see how it ends up. If you're unsatisfied with the process at the end, there will be plenty of time to leave Vanguard then in a more controlled manner. This is especially important given possible tax and transaction costs.
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InvestorNewb
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by InvestorNewb »

livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
Last edited by InvestorNewb on Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Errors happen all the time believe it or not - in your case it was $50K, for others it's millions of dollars! Take a deep breath - simply inform them you await to hear the outcome of their investigation and you expect to be fully compensated for the loss of use of your money - that usually means your $50K plus whatever amount of normal daily interest you receive on that money. That is normal protocol. If your bank made the error, they would be responsible in the same manner and believe me when I say your money could be in limbo for up to 3 weeks!

Threats don't go far unless you carry them out. Are you prepared to do so? Are you that unhappy with the service you've received thus far? It's your money and you can do what you like with it, but tell us, have you ever "not" been disappointed or momentarily jarred when service was less than perfect? Here's an example, you go to a diner and the waiter fails to bring you water, do you get up and never return or do you make another effort to have the waiter bring you the water but simply reduce the amount of tip you leave. You still go back to the diner for coffee every now and then right?

Good Luck!
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by nisiprius »

Fidelity once lost track of $1,000 for over three weeks. It was supposed to be a rollover from a 401(k) to a Fidelity rollover IRA account--an established account into which I'd done 401(k) rollovers before. It was simply in limbo for three weeks, vanished and nobody could tell me where it was.

I can't tell you what degree of anger to feel, but will just say that I have frequently experienced glitches in transfers--let me think: TIAA to Vanguard, Vanguard to Fidelity, Fidelity to Vanguard, and, as noted, Fidelity to Fidelity. It can take "forever" for them to be resolved, and it is usual not to be able to get any clear explanation from reps during or afterwards. I don't think you're going to lose $50,000.

If you wanted to regard the incident as unforgivable, I sort of agree. However, I've experienced at least one such "unforgivable" problem at every brokerage I've ever been at. No, wait, not Dean Witter. Almost every brokerage.

Dave Barry made a funny remark about how now he has to drive ten miles to do anything because he's said "I'll never do business with THEM again" about every business within ten miles.

The only time I actually left a brokerage over an unforgivable incident was one involving a Merrill Lynch broker, who'd been pestering me for several years to open a CMA account, despite my saying each time that I didn't want one. So one year he sends me the paperwork to open one, with handwritten Post-It notes saying what to do, yellow highlighter on the signature lines, and a self-addressed stamped envelope. He then started calling to complain that I hadn't returned it. I explained that I hadn't returned it because I didn't want a CMA account and wasn't going to open one. He seemed a little... intense. Said I "needed" to be earning the 1/4% more interest in that account than I was getting in their regular Ready Assets money market account. Said I "needed" to return it. I didn't.

A few days later I got a thick welcome package from Merrill Lynch explaining all the features and benefits of the brand new CMA account it said I had just opened.
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livesoft
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

InvestorNewb wrote:
livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
Once again, BoA misplaced a much larger amount of my money and it was a much higher fraction of my net worth, too. Yes, OP has every right to be upset, but they should get over it quickly because it will not make the money show up any faster.

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Dave55
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Dave55 »

Since it could have been the bank who made the error, leaving Vanguard accomplishes nothing. I agree with other posters here, wait it out, the $$ will show up. Once you find out how the error occurred, at that point you will be armed with the knowledge of how to move forward.
Good Luck
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cfs
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by cfs »

Stay away from the panic button.

Mistakes happen and this company is not perfect. The first impulse by part of the client is to shoot the messengers and to talk about closing their accounts with the current company and taking their business next door, but this is not the right move. In this case the bank should be involved in the conversation as they have a way to track the transaction, money is not lots, it is just misplaced, but with time all issues will be corrected. No reason to hit the panic button.

Thanks for reading.
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bobble
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by bobble »

I've long complained about Vanguard's awful customer service. I'm a small fish, disheartening to hear they don't get any better at the higher levels.
Saving$
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Saving$ »

Agree with all the advice above, but would add one thing, just in case:

DOCUMENT
Immediately download/save evidence of all transactions: your order to buy mutual funds and hopefully Vanguard's confirmation email/letter, the first Vanguard withdrawal from your bank, the second Vanguard withdrawal from your bank, the pending transactions as of x date (maybe daily until resolved?). It is amazing how financial institution mistake entries can totally disappear from your online account access. You may be ok with this if the issue is resolved (I'm not - I think it is falsifying history - show the whole mess, mistakes and all and show how you fixed the mistake), but if the info disappears before the issue is resolved and you are relying 100% on online access, you could be SOL.

I also would not hurt to write a SHORT summary of the incident. Read the terms & conditions of your Vanguard account and transmit the written summary to them in the manner required.

PS: If Vanguard is smart and monitoring these boards, lets hope your posting gets their attention. Should not be too hard for them to figure out which client with >$5 mil in assets complained about losing $50k and called on the days you noted....They should do such a good job fixing the problem and apologizing that you feel the need to post that also. Otherwise, it is a lost opportunity for Vanguard, in more ways than one....
stan1
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by stan1 »

Vanguard does not move fast on issues like this and their process does give the appearance of being shuffled around which makes customers upset. It has worked this way for at least the last 15 years I've had an account at Vanguard so they don't seem to be overly worried about it. A person who can actually investigate and fix the problem will most likely never speak to you on the phone so you will get frustrated speaking to phone reps who can do nothing but take a message -- but be patient. It will get taken care of but it will take longer than you want it to. We've never seen a post on here where a problem like this didn't get resolved.

As for leaving Vanguard I don't think Fidelity or Schwab are immune from problems like you describe. It has been my experience over the years that Fidelity and Schwab do have better phone support than Vanguard because most of their customers are paying much higher fees than I would. However in the end Vanguard is my preferred custodian because they are owned by the mutual funds themselves -- not by shareholders (and executives) who have a profit motivation. Also, when I ask myself whether I want my mutual funds to compensate Vanguard thousands of dollars more per year for expenses so they can hire more highly skilled phone reps the answer is always no. Finally from an account security perspective it is also good that there are very few people who can fix these types of problems. I'm sure part of the reason it takes a long time is because of the management controls Vanguard has in place to avoid further errors.
Last edited by stan1 on Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wilpat
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by wilpat »

I have a similar circumstance with BOA. They have lost some of my money and they are slow about chasing it. The total amount lost is $1.06! :D :D
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tcageog
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by tcageog »

I just wanted to chime in on this. I had a similar problem on the same day, Sept. 2nd. I had an automatic investment of $100 per week going from my bank account via ACH, to my Vanguard taxable. Well, this past week, on Sept 2nd, they made two separate $100 transactions, withdrawing $200 from my account. How did that happen? I've had this auto investment going for years. Never had a problem. Now, they didn't lose the money, it's all there, but what on earth?
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by HueyLD »

.............
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by bnes »

reason-logic wrote:Need some advice.
Relax.
Print out everything.
Send Vanguard stuff to your bank, bank stuff to Vanguard.

This is no banana republic: it will all work out in the end.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

While there is no banana republic, there are Russian hackers.
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Browser
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Browser »

Vanguard lost my entire Roth IRA account with about $150K in assets. It, and the complete transaction record for it, simply disappeared from my account. The Vanguard rep I spoke with brushed me off and even implied I was making the whole story up. Did not offer any course of action or initiate an investigation; nothing to assuage my worry and concern. I finally resolved the issue by producing paper copy of the account statement, after a considerable lapse of time and frustration on my part. Since that time, I've progressively moved my IRA assets out of Vanguard. Loss of trust is not something that is easily repaired. Maybe my other account custodians will mess up also, who knows? They haven't yet. I now keep meticulous records and check everything on nearly a daily basis. If they do screw up I'll move my money from them to someone else. There's no reason to put up with this kind of krap with the sort of assets you have, IMO.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Steelersfan »

I had a duplicate transfer of an amount somewhat larger. It turns out it was my fault in my interaction with the bank's cash transfer system (ACH). I'm not saying yours was. But between the bank and Vanguard it got corrected, but it took about 10 days because they had to let the ACH entries clear out to fully correct the situation.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by TheTimeLord »

reason-logic wrote:Need some advice. I made a mutual fund purchase of $50k on 8-29-14. On 9-2, Vanguard transferred the 50k from my bank account, then transferred another 50k (for a total of 100k) via ACH. I noticed on 9-3, called my bank they confirmed Vanguard requested the funds and the bank transferred the 100k to them.

I checked my Vanguard account on line and the second 50k was shown as a pending order (duplicate) for the same mutual fund from 8-29. I called my Flagship representative on 9-3 who promised to investigate. I heard nothing, so on 9-4 I checked the Vanguard site, the pending transaction was gone (but the 50k was not in any account). I called again, the Vanguard rep said the 50k was "missing" and he had the situation assigned to some special transaction department to investigate. He promised to call me back that day. I heard nothing.

On 9-5 I called my Flagship rep again, got voice mail, so I transferred to the call center. I demanded to speak to someone in charge, but was told all management were in meetings. I then stated I would close my account if I could not speak to someone in management. I was put on hold for 30 minutes then finally spoke with my Flagship reps manager, he then assigned this to another Flagship representative, who then called and said they still cannot find my money, they were still looking and could not give me a date when this would be resolved.

So I am still out 50k.

I have over 5m in Vanguard but this incident has shaken my trust.

My questions are:

1. Should I close my account with Vanguard, or am I being emotional and cutting off my nose to spite my face?
2. If I close account, is there another brokerage where I can transfer my current mutual funds and buy and sell Vanguard funds without a fee?
3. Is there any way it can find a decision maker in Vanguard as I feel I am being shuffled around?
As long as your bank has records of the transactions I don't see how you are out anything.
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bertie wooster
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by bertie wooster »

I love how people in threads like this will try and minimize what has happened to the OP.

They've misplaced $50k, we all understand that it happens and that they have a process to rectify this type of mistake. However, they express zero remorse and don't even have the courtesy to call the OP back on multiple occasions despite saying they will. This is awful customer service and there is simply no excuse for it. To make flip remarks about having $1.06 misplaced doesn't help the OP and totally misses the point. Others say that the OP shouldn't worry about the money because he has 5 million. That also misses the point.

In my opinion one of the advantages of having $5 million dollars is to not deal with this type of thing (this is theoretical, sadly I don't have that kind of money). While this thing probably happens with all money management companies, I'm sure it happens a lot less with Fidelity. OP, if I were you I'd consider moving - their Spartan Funds are pretty darned good.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Browser »

bertie wooster wrote:I love how people in threads like this will try and minimize what has happened to the OP.

They've misplaced $50k, we all understand that it happens and that they have a process to rectify this type of mistake. However, they express zero remorse and don't even have the courtesy to call the OP back on multiple occasions despite saying they will. This is awful customer service and there is simply no excuse for it. To make flip remarks about having $1.06 misplaced doesn't help the OP and totally misses the point. Others say that the OP shouldn't worry about the money because he has 5 million. That also misses the point.

In my opinion one of the advantages of having $5 million dollars is to not deal with this type of thing (this is theoretical, sadly I don't have that kind of money). While this thing probably happens with all money management companies, I'm sure it happens a lot less with Fidelity. OP, if I were you I'd consider moving - their Spartan Funds are pretty darned good.
Agree completely. I guess Vanguard is low-cost because they've cut out customer service or only hire people at minimum wage to do it. You can still buy their funds and ETFs, but give them to somebody else to hold that actually has a customer service department.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

^^^ At least until someone starts a thread that Fidelity lost $50K. :)

I will start a poll based on this thread. We may see how many snafus have occurred to people. It seems there has been a lot of "Been there; done that." going on and so far, everyone has survived and found their money.
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Tanelorn
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Tanelorn »

If the market is and stays up, insist on them filling that second mutual fund purchase order.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by arf30 »

I work for a large corporation that has terrible customer service due to bureaucracy. They consistently lose long time customers due to bungling what start as simple issues. There's no incentive for anyone to stick their neck out to fix a major problem, instead the customer gets ignored or passed around like a hot potato internally. What does work is when the customer calls or emails an executive at the company, who then lights a fire under someone's butt to fix it. You might want to try doing the same.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Toons »

Missing 50k? I'd be packing a bag now and taking a drive to 100 Vanguard Drive,Malvern Pa. :happy
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by happyisland »

About a year ago Vanguard misplaced a $100k wire from a different bank for about 4 days. It was a nervous time, to say the least. They eventually tracked it down, but the experience is not one I'll forget any time soon!
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by TheTimeLord »

bertie wooster wrote:I love how people in threads like this will try and minimize what has happened to the OP.

They've misplaced $50k, we all understand that it happens and that they have a process to rectify this type of mistake. However, they express zero remorse and don't even have the courtesy to call the OP back on multiple occasions despite saying they will. This is awful customer service and there is simply no excuse for it. To make flip remarks about having $1.06 misplaced doesn't help the OP and totally misses the point. Others say that the OP shouldn't worry about the money because he has 5 million. That also misses the point.

In my opinion one of the advantages of having $5 million dollars is to not deal with this type of thing (this is theoretical, sadly I don't have that kind of money). While this thing probably happens with all money management companies, I'm sure it happens a lot less with Fidelity. OP, if I were you I'd consider moving - their Spartan Funds are pretty darned good.
Do you believe he has lost $50K or do you believe this is an issue that will be rectified within 2-4 weeks? From what I can tell this seems to happen when Vanguard is the ones handling the transactions for you instead of you entering orders for yourself. I would be interested if anyone can confirm this is the case because when you do it yourself you get confirmation numbers.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by derosa »

Threatening to no longer do business with vg or a restuarent that screwed something up or a dry cleaner etc etc doesn't help yourself.

Think about it from their side. If you say you will never do business with them again - what is their incentive to resolve the problem. You said you were gone already.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by tibbitts »

This is outrageous. VG needs to be explaining to you constantly exactly what they're doing to resolve the problem, to whatever level of detail you're interested in knowing. They need to work on your problem 24/7, until it's resolved.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by tibbitts »

derosa wrote:Threatening to no longer do business with vg or a restuarent that screwed something up or a dry cleaner etc etc doesn't help yourself.

Think about it from their side. If you say you will never do business with them again - what is their incentive to resolve the problem. You said you were gone already.
I agree that it's counter-productive to be threatening or rude, but VG needs to meet the customer halfway by explaining exactly what they're doing to attempt to resolve the problem, and by making it clear that they're equally dismayed that this has happened.

One incentive for VG to get this resolved is that the story is going to be told here, and everybody is going to know about it.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Ozonewanderer »

I don't care how much money you have, I would not keep my money with a company who misplaced my $50,000. This should have been resolved - or they should have made you whole, considering how much money you have with them - in 24 hours.

Get the money first, then leave.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

This could happen to any of us, so we should all leave preemptively.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Christine_NM »

I wonder if the best way to handle a situation like this is to let the pending transaction go through, pretending everything is OK.

Then sell those shares if you want that second $50k back in the bank.

By interrupting the second transaction the customer sets corrective, time-consuming, frustrating procedures in motion. Vanguard will not remit $50k without a thorough investigation.

My sympathies to the OP, but he might as well calm down and wait for a formal resolution. BTW the only really weird error I had was at Fidelity, a commingling of my 401k with someone else's on a Friday, no resolution till the following Wednesday. Vanguard has made a very few errors with my accounts in the past 20 years and always corrected them promptly. But it never involved returning money to me.

Really, this stuff does happen all the time.
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PatrickA5
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by PatrickA5 »

VG put an extra $130K into my IRA a few weeks ago. I called them and they said they accidently deposited someone else's rollover check into my account. About a week later they got it fixed. I was pleased with the response that I got from them. They were very nice and apologetic. Of course, since I wasn't "missing" money, I wasn't all that worried about it.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by camptalcott »

Toons wrote:Missing 50k? I'd be packing a bag now and taking a drive to 100 Vanguard Drive,Malvern Pa. :happy
LOL. me too.

Man I'm loving all these folks who have 50K they could care less whether some one else loses it or not. but I'm not a high wage earner so 50K is almost a years salary for me. Yep, I would seriously be upset.

Op, I'm sure vanguard will straighten it out but I'm on your side. I'd be sitting in some ones office Monday morning.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Crimsontide »

camptalcott wrote:
Toons wrote:Missing 50k? I'd be packing a bag now and taking a drive to 100 Vanguard Drive,Malvern Pa. :happy
LOL. me too.

Man I'm loving all these folks who have 50K they could care less whether some one else loses it or not. but I'm not a high wage earner so 50K is almost a years salary for me. Yep, I would seriously be upset.

Op, I'm sure vanguard will straighten it out but I'm on your side. I'd be sitting in some ones office Monday morning.
+1 this is an outrage. $50k is $50k, somebody's got some 'splaing to do...
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Steelersfan
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Steelersfan »

Unless you're lucky, you'll encounter a mistake or two over your investing career. Suppose you invest with one of the top investment firms, e.g. Vanguard or Fidelity. If you bag your first choice investment firm on the first mistake and go to your second choice, then bag your second choice if a second mistake happens, pretty soon you're dealing with a middle of the road firm who isn't as "good" as your previous choices.

Mistakes happen, even in the best firms. Let them deal with it, as long as they get it right in a reasonable time frame.
angelescrest
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by angelescrest »

Crimsontide wrote:
camptalcott wrote:
Toons wrote:Missing 50k? I'd be packing a bag now and taking a drive to 100 Vanguard Drive,Malvern Pa. :happy
LOL. me too.

Man I'm loving all these folks who have 50K they could care less whether some one else loses it or not. but I'm not a high wage earner so 50K is almost a years salary for me. Yep, I would seriously be upset.

Op, I'm sure vanguard will straighten it out but I'm on your side. I'd be sitting in some ones office Monday morning.
+1 this is an outrage. $50k is $50k, somebody's got some 'splaing to do...
+2. I can't believe the many voices that suggest this type of mistake is nearly acceptable. If that's how people feel and financial institutions know it, there's no motivation to raise the bar.
Mudpuppy
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Mudpuppy »

reason-logic wrote:I checked my Vanguard account on line and the second 50k was shown as a pending order (duplicate) for the same mutual fund from 8-29. I called my Flagship representative on 9-3 who promised to investigate. I heard nothing, so on 9-4 I checked the Vanguard site, the pending transaction was gone (but the 50k was not in any account). I called again, the Vanguard rep said the 50k was "missing" and he had the situation assigned to some special transaction department to investigate. He promised to call me back that day. I heard nothing.
Here's where you hit the "panic" button without need to hit the panic button. Banking computer systems operate on batch mode, where items like ACHs will usually only settled to individual accounts once a day. It can also take a couple of days for the transaction to "settle" into the correct account. They are not real-time systems, so patience is called for in most cases. Not seeing the transaction reversed at your bank on Friday is not that unusual for a batch processing system. You should not have panicked at this point.

Here's the timeline that I suspect happened. Vanguard initiated the reversal on their end sometime in the middle of the day Wednesday 9/3. Vanguard's batch system processed the transaction reversal overnight (so it disappeared from your pending transaction list on Thursday 9/4) and sent it to the bank at some point during Thursday 9/4 or Friday 9/5. At this point, it now has to go through all the steps at your bank, which means it probably won't show up until sometime between Monday morning and Wednesday morning.

So the time to hit the "panic" button is next week. Hitting it on Friday was not only premature, it could actually delay the process by having humans interrupt what batch systems would have processed just fine (albeit slowly) on their own.
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corner559
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by corner559 »

InvestorNewb wrote:
livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
+1
Also is what concerns me is the fact they they did not follow-up multiple times as promised. Very poor handling on VG's part and also makes me question keeping all my eggs in one basket. Shame on you Vanguard.
Mudpuppy
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Mudpuppy »

InvestorNewb wrote:
livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
They may be unable "to be in a hurry to resolve it" due to the batch nature of banking systems. Yes, Vanguard could do much more to communicate in this situation, and to explain why the delays are a normal part of the banking system. But any time money has gotten misplaced between two financial institutions, it is going to take days to weeks to resolve, no matter how much money is involved or how much one yells at people on the phone.

You can be upset, but you also have to be patient. The batch systems work on their own time schedules, and those time schedules are very slow.
dgdevil
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by dgdevil »

corner559 wrote:
InvestorNewb wrote:
livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
+1
Also is what concerns me is the fact they they did not follow-up multiple times as promised. Very poor handling on VG's part and also makes me question keeping all my eggs in one basket. Shame on you Vanguard.
+1. Pretty disgraceful, as are some of the flippant responses. My portfolio is one-tenth of yours. If they lost $5000, I would be apoplectic. Granted, they probably misplaced it, and there's not much you can do. Still, the lack of customer support here puts VG in the same category as a shady telco. And just when I was thinking of switching my funds from T. Rowe Price.
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by livesoft »

Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
inbox788
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by inbox788 »

In the future, consider making non-identical transfer amounts so you can keep track of the transactions yourself. Right now, you don't know which transaction is having a problem. Sometime I add a penny or dollar to a transaction as a code so I can track things. $49,999 and $50,001 ends up the same in the end, but this way you can refer to the correct date/amount vs. having to track down transaction numbers, and wasting time on a transaction that did process correctly.
mnvalue
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by mnvalue »

inbox788 wrote:In the future, consider making non-identical transfer amounts so you can keep track of the transactions yourself.
As I understood the OP, Vanguard processed the transfer twice. So if the OP had entered $49,999, then there would've been two $49,999 transactions.
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Steelersfan
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Steelersfan »

Mudpuppy wrote:
reason-logic wrote:I checked my Vanguard account on line and the second 50k was shown as a pending order (duplicate) for the same mutual fund from 8-29. I called my Flagship representative on 9-3 who promised to investigate. I heard nothing, so on 9-4 I checked the Vanguard site, the pending transaction was gone (but the 50k was not in any account). I called again, the Vanguard rep said the 50k was "missing" and he had the situation assigned to some special transaction department to investigate. He promised to call me back that day. I heard nothing.
Here's where you hit the "panic" button without need to hit the panic button. Banking computer systems operate on batch mode, where items like ACHs will usually only settled to individual accounts once a day. It can also take a couple of days for the transaction to "settle" into the correct account. They are not real-time systems, so patience is called for in most cases. Not seeing the transaction reversed at your bank on Friday is not that unusual for a batch processing system. You should not have panicked at this point.

Here's the timeline that I suspect happened. Vanguard initiated the reversal on their end sometime in the middle of the day Wednesday 9/3. Vanguard's batch system processed the transaction reversal overnight (so it disappeared from your pending transaction list on Thursday 9/4) and sent it to the bank at some point during Thursday 9/4 or Friday 9/5. At this point, it now has to go through all the steps at your bank, which means it probably won't show up until sometime between Monday morning and Wednesday morning.

So the time to hit the "panic" button is next week. Hitting it on Friday was not only premature, it could actually delay the process by having humans interrupt what batch systems would have processed just fine (albeit slowly) on their own.
+1

That's exactly what happened in my situation.

I never had to hit the panic button, although I was concerned and watched the situation closely for a week or so.

It all sorted itself out with no intervention on my end.
tibbitts
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by tibbitts »

Mudpuppy wrote:
InvestorNewb wrote:
livesoft wrote:And then it's only about 1% of your assets at Vanguard. You should be proud that it really doesn't matter in the end what happens to this $50K. Really.
Net worth is irrelevant here. The bottom line is they somehow managed to misplace 50k and don't appear to be in any hurry to resolve it. OP has every right to be upset.
They may be unable "to be in a hurry to resolve it" due to the batch nature of banking systems. Yes, Vanguard could do much more to communicate in this situation, and to explain why the delays are a normal part of the banking system. But any time money has gotten misplaced between two financial institutions, it is going to take days to weeks to resolve, no matter how much money is involved or how much one yells at people on the phone.

You can be upset, but you also have to be patient. The batch systems work on their own time schedules, and those time schedules are very slow.
I don't believe the nature of batch systems or ACH has anything to do with this. VG has the ability to track the transactions that occurred within its own systems, and then determine whether it's executed a transaction to send the money back to the OP's bank. Certainly once they've initiated a transfer, there will be a day or two when the money doesn't appear anywhere, but I believe if the OP was presented with all the tracking information from within VG's systems, and knew the funds were on they way back to his bank, he'd be satisfied. Mistakes do happen, but there's just no justification for the lack of enthusiasm with which VG is pursuing a resolution to this.
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Watty
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Re: Vanguard Lost $50k

Post by Watty »

One thing that I ran into when I needed to get a large correction made with a large utility company, was that one of two or three people that that needed to approve it was out on vacation for a few days. This was an unusual transaction so there was no-one else that was authorized to do it until they got back so it sat on their desk until they got back. If they had been out of the office longer then it would have likely needed to be bumped up to senior management.

It very well could be that getting this fixed requires several peoples approval and one of the people is out of the office this week since last Monday was labor day.
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