Paper or plastic?

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john94549
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Paper or plastic?

Post by john94549 »

Given all the hype over the proposed ban, is this really an issue with the Boglehead community? One leading local grocer shifted to small paper bags (for produce and such) with no apparent impact. At checkout, I've always asked for "paper", and would be more than happy to pay a few cents for the privilege, as we use paper grocery bags for garbage disposal, in any event. Folks here at Trader Joe's and Whole Foods have designer re-use bags to carry out their groceries. While I've heard the issues regarding re-use bags and bacteria (etc.), isn't this something a spray disinfectant can remedy?

OK, in the off chance I have to go grocery shopping after the ban goes into effect, any hints would be appreciated.
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nisiprius
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by nisiprius »

Google News seems to be saying that it is only single-use plastic bags that will be banned.

Here in the Northeast, for about ten years now, all of the supermarkets and many other stores have been selling reusable bags, generally for $1, and they are also popular promotional freebies from banks, realtors, cable companies, etc.

Quite a lot of places are also selling cheap thin canvas bags for about $3 or so. Trader Joe's is one of them. I believe Walmart is another.

In point of fact it is not at all inconvenient to use the reusable bags. They last a year or two before they start to get grubby. If you forget to bring them, you buy a few more, and that's about the right rate to replace the old ones. The reusable bags are much better than plastic--they hold more, they don't spill as easily when you put them in a car, and the handles don't stretch and turn into fishline and try to cut into your hands.

I wouldn't worry about the bacteria. If you put wet vegetables in them, yes, they will grow mold or mildew or something which you can smell. If you are not putting unwrapped produce in them, though, how are they going to get bacteria in them? If bacteria can't get INTO the package, how can they get OUT of the package? Sniff the bags once in a while, replace them every so often, and if you know a package of chicken leaked in one of them, get rid of it...

Sadly, most people continue to use the single-use plastic bags.

I'd love to know what material these bags are made of and where they come from.

Paper bags, alas, are quite hard to get these days. (We like to save some for bagging the paper shreds from the shredder).

Anyway, my practical advice is that I'm sure that the stores will be selling reusable bags, but if you want to get the jump on things, buy a few reusable bags of some kind, and figure out the fairly small ways you need to reorganize your life so as to have them with you when you go shopping.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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livesoft
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by livesoft »

Doesn't everybody use re-useable cloth bags nowadays. These bags are given away by just about everybody with school, corporate, or charity logos on them. Sometimes called a goodie bag or swag bag, you just collect them and leave them in your car for grocery shopping.
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mlipps
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by mlipps »

Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans? I have a small one in the kitchen for non recyclables and another in the bathroom. I'll admit that eventually we end up with more grocery bags than trash, so we could use the reusable ones more often, but still. Am I going to buy bags just to use for my trash cans? That seems even more wasteful.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by nisiprius »

mlipps wrote:Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans? I have a small one in the kitchen for non recyclables and another in the bathroom. I'll admit that eventually we end up with more grocery bags than trash, so we could use the reusable ones more often, but still. Am I going to buy bags just to use for my trash cans? That seems even more wasteful.
It is wasteful, and it is what we do. Worse yet, we buy the kind with the drawstrings, a frivolous waste of money, although I don't think it is a heavier environmental footprint.

Seriously, though, we used to save our grocery bags for re-use--and then periodically had to get rid of them because we accumulated them ten times as fast as we could invent uses for them. So I have a rough impression of how much plastic we use in grocery bags versus trash liners, and I'm certain it is a LOT more.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dm200 »

mlipps wrote:Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans? I have a small one in the kitchen for non recyclables and another in the bathroom. I'll admit that eventually we end up with more grocery bags than trash, so we could use the reusable ones more often, but still. Am I going to buy bags just to use for my trash cans? That seems even more wasteful.
[If you are old enough], what did you do before there were grocery single use plastic bags?
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Re: Paper or plastic?

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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by nisiprius »

dm200, it is almost impossible to get paper bags in our area of the country. They must have gotten quite expensive for the stores. First they got thinner and thinner and smaller and flimsier until it got to be downright dangerous to use them for anything but loaves of Wonder bread. Then they simply vanished.
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seeshells
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by seeshells »

livesoft wrote:Doesn't everybody use re-useable cloth bags nowadays.
No, No they do not.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by livesoft »

mlipps wrote:Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans? I have a small one in the kitchen for non recyclables and another in the bathroom. I'll admit that eventually we end up with more grocery bags than trash, so we could use the reusable ones more often, but still. Am I going to buy bags just to use for my trash cans? That seems even more wasteful.
For small plastic trash cans in the bathrooms, we use the inner plastic bags from cereal boxes or no bag at all. For the kitchen, we buy plastic kitchen trash bags and use one (1) per week or two. We have a plastic bin for recyclables and a compost most other stuff. I suppose meat and fish scraps are the offenders, but we rarely have those because we eat out quite a lot or do take-out, so no food prep scraps to throw out most days.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by nisiprius »

dm200, if you mean what did we use to line trash cans and wastebaskets before grocery plastic bags... why no, we didn't line them.

We put trash and wet garbage into bare naked unprotected wastebaskets and cans. Then we dumped them into galvanized steel trash cans. And some of the wet material adhered to the kitchen waste basket, putrefied, and stank, which is why it had a tight-fitting lid and a pedal. Then garbage men ("men" is the appropriate period word here) came, and noisily emptied the galvanized steel garbage can into the garbage truck, and some of the wet material adhered to the garbage can, putrefied, and stank. The rough handling of the galvanized steel garbage cans soon dented and distorted them so that the galvanized steel lids did not fit and would not close, but they were actually pretty darned expensive so you did not replace them for mere aesthetics.

It can't have been all that long ago, either, because the original "trash can" icon on the 1984 Mac was obviously a galvanized steel trash can. Although trust me, they did NOT bulge when they were full.

The first time I ever saw wastebasket liners was in the 1970s, and it was in some lab buildings that were part of a hospital complex. I've always imagined, without knowing, that they were "invented" for medical waste; does anyone know? A correspondent informs me that they were invented in the 1950s, by Canadians. Were Canadians really using them for twenty years before the U.S. or did it take a while to catch on in both countries, or was I living in a backward area?

Like toilet paper (no, I am not old enough to remember the days before toilet paper--that was a World War I invention, I think), plastic trash can liners may be environmentally evil but they are also... "nice."

I first saw compactor-type garbage trucks in the late 1960s. I wonder if anyone remembers a movie called "Blood Feast?" Very popular on campus after Time called it the "worst movie of the year." The denouement involved a bad guy meeting his comeuppance by being tossed into the back of a garbage truck, which was then revealed to be a compactor-type truck.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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livesoft
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by livesoft »

In the '70s we would put contaminated hospital bed linens directly into polyvinyl alcohol plastic bags. PVA is a plastic that dissolves in water, so these bags could be washed without being opened and the unwashed bedsheets would not be touched by the laundry staff.

PVA is now used in the plastic for laundry & dishwasher detergent tablets.
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harmony
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by harmony »

We have been using the same 3 canvas bags for 33 years. We laundry them every couple of months, yet they don't show much wear.
They were made by Earthwise, but I don't think they carry them anymore. These bags are bigger than promotional canvas bags. We make sure that heavier stuff (like jars or cans) goes in the bottom of the bag. We prefer these bags over paper or plastic because they are so strong and hold as much as paper. The one disadvantage is that they are harder to fill because they are quite floppy. Sometimes canvas bags can be hung over the same contraption that is used to hold the plastic bags at the end of the checkout lane.

Plastic bags from cereal boxes make good containers for wet garbage. Take something like a funky meat wrapper, stuff it into one of these empty cereal bags, roll the top done a few times, put a rubber band around it; and it won't dampen the rest of the garbage.

We like to use the empty boxes from Aldi's for grocery containers. These containers are usually reused again somewhere in our home. Various kinds of cardboard can be flattened out to make mulch for a vegetable garden. Poke holes in it to let rain through.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

For people complaining that canvas bags get grubby, contemplate tossing them in the washing machine periodically :oops:

That works for mine. A couple of the cheap ones had the seams come apart, but I just sewed them up once and it's lasted.

I don't need liners for my bathroom wastebaskets. They're small ones from Rubbermaid and I just wash them out occasionally. The wet stuff that goes in them is really minor.

For the large wastebasket in the kitchen, I could do the same thing, but it's cumbersome, leads to a mess in the outside trash can and it's harder for the rubbish guy when things are loose. So I line that with supposedly biodegradable trash bags.
nisiprius wrote:dm200, it is almost impossible to get paper bags in our area of the country. They must have gotten quite expensive for the stores. First they got thinner and thinner and smaller and flimsier until it got to be downright dangerous to use them for anything but loaves of Wonder bread. Then they simply vanished.
The cheapo supermarket here has flimsy small paper bags available. The good supermarkets have sturdy ones. I think the state requires that supermarkets and some other stores make paper bags available.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by runner9 »

mlipps wrote:Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans?
We used them as much as possible but not always. Occasionally we forget, especially when getting just 1 item. I don't take reusable bags into stores like Lowes, Party City, etc. we we get bags from there. I also try to dump bathroom trash into the kitchen trash can on trash day so it's not a new bag each week.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dickenjb »

nisiprius wrote: Sadly, most people continue to use the single-use plastic bags.

I'd love to know what material these bags are made of and where they come from.
That is an easy question. Polyolefin and they come from petroleum and/or NGL (natural gas liquids).
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by larryinnewyork »

One good reason for Paper Bags:
When you get arrested, you can put one over your head.
Not allowed with the Plastic.

I was watching the News one Evening.
Two thugs are led out in handcuffs and wearing a 'paper' bag over their heads.
It was funny because they drew faces on the bags.
Well, it made me laugh.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Toons »

I re-use ALL my plastic bags from WalMart as trash liners for small trash cans @home. :happy
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Cosmo
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Cosmo »

The single use plastic bags were gold in our house for years. That made an excellent second use for several dirty diapers per day.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Toons »

Cosmo wrote:The single use plastic bags were gold in our house for years. That made an excellent second use for several dirty diapers per day.
+1 :happy
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BarryB
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by BarryB »

mlipps wrote:Honest question. For those of you who don't ever get plastic bags at the grocery store, what do you use to line your trash cans? I have a small one in the kitchen for non recyclables and another in the bathroom. I'll admit that eventually we end up with more grocery bags than trash, so we could use the reusable ones more often, but still. Am I going to buy bags just to use for my trash cans? That seems even more wasteful.
We have a number of uses for the grocery plastic bags - line the small trash containers, contain the old litter from the cat's litter boxes for disposal, clean the ashes from the wood stove, etc. If we did not have the bags from the grocery stores we would likely need to purchase replacements for these purposes.
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gardemanger
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by gardemanger »

I hate single-use plastic shopping bags anyway - they're flimsy and ugly. If I really wanted small can liners I would buy them in the store. I don't expect freebies for my other household supplies after all. And you always pile them up anyway, and they don't recycle well (curbside recycling doesn't take them at all in my city.) Really a PITA.

I bought a set of "parachute nylon" reusable bags from a company called Baggu in 2007 and still use them on a regular basis. They are colorful and the handles are long enough that you can hitch them over your shoulder to carry. This brand is the most attractive I've seen (they make a lot of different colors and sizes now, and also stripy ones) and they don't get grimy-looking over time, although they are not totally impervious to stains. It is easy to throw them in the laundry with any color load (cooler temps are bettter) and then hang them to dry - they dry really fast. Drawbacks to this particular brand are that they come with a "stuff sack" which isn't attached, so if you're like me, you'll lose the stuff sack almost immediately. Other brands such as Chico bags, made of similar material, do come with a stuff sack attached. But I've usually had no problem just folding up the bags and putting them in my purse.

It is true that nylon and other thinner bags are floppy and this is sometimes inconvenient - my Baggus are also a bit softer after 7 years of use - so I do also have a couple of more structured grocery-bag-shaped bags that I use. Those can also be folded over an additional time to fit in my purse. (As a single person shopping on foot or by bus I don't use more than one or at most two bags at a time.) It is really not hard to find reusable bags and as an earlier poster mentioned, often times you get promotional bags thrown at you anyway, to the point where it can become a clutter issue. Also, if your city or locality institutes a plastic bag ban, the local stores will respond by practically giving away reusable bags for a while. They may not be the quality or design that you want though. I've taken advantage of 5 cent bag refunds when they've been offered and I may have actually recouped the entire cost of the Baggus by now.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by SimonJester »

Hmm some vegetables seems to last a lot longer when kept in single use plastic produce bags. I can never seems to remember to take the reusable bags with me to the store. For a while they were very popular and you would see many people with them in the store. This seems to have died down now and I only see one or two people with them.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by JMacDonald »

The city I live in banned plastic bags a while back. Actually for me it has not been a problem. I just have a couple of reusable bags in my car for use when I shop. The store sell a paper bag for ten cents if you need a bag. Now the state is considering banning plastic. From listening to the discussion, you would think it was the end of the world. I hope the state actually gets does the right thing and ban plastic.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by jlawrence01 »

No paper bags. Those are roach coaches.

Roaches love the adhesives in the bags.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

SimonJester wrote:Hmm some vegetables seems to last a lot longer when kept in single use plastic produce bags.
It's probably keeping them away from things like apples which emit a gas that speeds up ripening. Distance will do the same thing, or a vegetable drawer.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by mlipps »

JMacDonald wrote:The city I live in banned plastic bags a while back. Actually for me it has not been a problem. I just have a couple of reusable bags in my car for use when I shop. The store sell a paper bag for ten cents if you need a bag. Now the state is considering banning plastic. From listening to the discussion, you would think it was the end of the world. I hope the state actually gets does the right thing and ban plastic.
I don't think it's the end of the world. Just genuinely wondering what to do without them. We live in the top floor of a three story walk up. I am not carrying my trash bins all the way downstairs to empty into the garbage dumpster then carrying them all the way back up, and I don't have space for a compost bin. Even if I did there would still be messy things like meat wrappers that wouldn't go in it. I use the large white bags that you buy for recycling but I have very little actual garbage, so those would never get full on trash alone. Guess there is no magic answer so I'll just keep hoping Chicago opts to charge you for them instead of outright banning as they have discussed. The tax works great, we took bags with us way more consistently when we lived in Maryland than we ever do now. Now I only remember them when we go to Aldi.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by JMacDonald »

mlipps wrote:
JMacDonald wrote:The city I live in banned plastic bags a while back. Actually for me it has not been a problem. I just have a couple of reusable bags in my car for use when I shop. The store sell a paper bag for ten cents if you need a bag. Now the state is considering banning plastic. From listening to the discussion, you would think it was the end of the world. I hope the state actually gets does the right thing and ban plastic.
I don't think it's the end of the world. Just genuinely wondering what to do without them. We live in the top floor of a three story walk up. I am not carrying my trash bins all the way downstairs to empty into the garbage dumpster then carrying them all the way back up, and I don't have space for a compost bin. Even if I did there would still be messy things like meat wrappers that wouldn't go in it. I use the large white bags that you buy for recycling but I have very little actual garbage, so those would never get full on trash alone. Guess there is no magic answer so I'll just keep hoping Chicago opts to charge you for them instead of outright banning as they have discussed. The tax works great, we took bags with us way more consistently when we lived in Maryland than we ever do now. Now I only remember them when we go to Aldi.
I live in the third floor of a condo building. I either walk back up ( good exercise ) with my trash container, or I put it into the trunk of my car to carry it up when I return. I am sure you will be able to cope if the day ever comes when plastic is finally banned.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

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nisiprius wrote:We put trash and wet garbage into bare naked unprotected wastebaskets and cans. Then we dumped them into galvanized steel trash cans. And some of the wet material adhered to the kitchen waste basket, putrefied, and stank, which is why it had a tight-fitting lid and a pedal. Then garbage men ("men" is the appropriate period word here) came, and noisily emptied the galvanized steel garbage can into the garbage truck, and some of the wet material adhered to the garbage can, putrefied, and stank. The rough handling of the galvanized steel garbage cans soon dented and distorted them so that the galvanized steel lids did not fit and would not close, but they were actually pretty darned expensive so you did not replace them for mere aesthetics.
And because they stank, they were kept outside. Occasionally, raccoons or possums would visit, knock over the cans and scatter the trash all over the yard. Then there were the maggots in the summer. Good times.

My dad used to use his "size 12 foot compactor" (as he called it) to get as much as humanely possible into the can, making it extremely heavy and nearly impossible for a 12 year old boy to get from the back yard to the curb.

To this day, my wife will say the can in the kitchen is full and needs to go out. I will scoff, take off the lid, put the foot in and, voila, it's only half full. Problem deferred...
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Spirit Rider »

kenschmidt wrote:And because they stank, they were kept outside. Occasionally, raccoons or possums would visit, knock over the cans and scatter the trash all over the yard. Then there were the maggots in the summer. Good times.
Ah, the memories and joys of childhood. We didn't have Garbage Men, we had a garbage dump on the other side of town. We might have been lower middle class, but at least we didn't live down wind of the dump. Long before people sorted their recyclables, we sorted our trash (organic, combustible, and other).

The organic material went into an in-ground garbage pail. My father had built a holder out of cement with a heavy cast iron lid (that you stepped on to open). Occasionally, the raccoons would get hungry enough or smart enough to open the lid.

The combustible material was burned in an empty 55 gallon drum with a grate on top. Surprisingly, in a neighborhood of 1/4 - 1/2 acre lots, nobody complained. Maybe because everybody else was doing the same thing. Oh no, what would the EPA say!

For the other we had a dump trailer. It was a 4' x 6' hydraulic dump body that my father had cannibalized from somewhere. There was a manual valve and a hand operated hydraulic pump that took several minutes to raise the dump body.

I still live in a town that doesn't have trash pickup. You can pay a private company, but I still like going to the dump myself. Occassionally remembering us as little kids singing "To the Dump, To the Dump, To the Dump, Dump, Dump", to the Lone Ranger theme song (actually from William Tell Overture)
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by gardemanger »

I cannot personally vouch for this brand (although I'm thinking of getting them or something similar, I've only seen them online and haven't had a chance to inspect the actual product) but there are washable, reusable can liners on the market. I'm linking to the 5 gallon size but this company also makes a 13 gallon size. They certainly look nicer than flimsy grocery store bags.

http://www.reuseit.com/home/planet-wise ... h-bags.htm

If you think about it, taking your single-use plastic bag from the grocery store and reusing it does not actually "reduce waste" - you are still consuming the bag, and actually if you use it for trash you're taking away the opportunity to return it to the store for recycling. Some small percentage of plastic grocery store bags, like 10% or less, actually get recycled. Cities vary about whether they will accept them in municipal recycling - mine won't. I can take them back to certain grocery stores but I very very seldom need to do so, because I don't accumulate that many in the first place. There is some question about whether they are actually worth anything as recycling fodder - you have to downcycle them pretty far to get even one more use out of them.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by bhsince87 »

Thankfully, our curbside recycling program has accepted plastic bags for 3-4 years. So we use them most often now. We especially like the bags from or state controlled liquor stores (in PA). They are extremely durable, and we use them many times before they hit the recycle bin!

Before that, we eventually settled on some cotton/muslin bags. Most clothes washing machines will not kill some of the troubling microbes often found on food, unless bleach or very high temperatures are used.

This lead us to running our bags in separate wash loads each week. We have no water shortage here, but I would question the wisdom of doing something like that in an area where drought is a problem.

The cotton bags we eventually settled upon could be tossed into a bucket with bleach water for a quick soak, then rinsed and air dried.

We also used a couple plastic foil/bubble insulated bags for cold items. We just rinsed those out with the bleach water in the buckets. We liked them so much that we still use them even now for cold items.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by tj »

In our city, it is illegal to give out plastic bags. (I'm near the ocean, so that may be why) It's the first time I've seen so many paper bags in probably 20 years.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by pennstater2005 »

Reusable cloth-type bags for groceries. Plastic bags from other stores I take my lunch in.
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by FrugalInvestor »

livesoft wrote:Doesn't everybody use reusable cloth bags nowadays. These bags are given away by just about everybody with school, corporate, or charity logos on them. Sometimes called a goodie bag or swag bag, you just collect them and leave them in your car for grocery shopping.
No, we tried early on but always seemed to forget to take them into the store with us. My wife also became concerned about the lack of cleanliness of reusable bags over the longer term. We've since reverted to using paper or plastic. We save the plastic bags and return them to the grocery store for recycling and put the paper bags in our recycle bin, or use them for some other purpose ourselves. Of course Costco is very generous and gives us one of their old boxes which then goes into our recycling also.

Just FYI for those who many not have noticed - nearly every grocery store has a collection bin for recycling of plastic bags.
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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john94549
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by john94549 »

Thanks to all. I suspect the devil is in the details. For example, my wife and I just love those mixed greens sold loose in the produce department. Best I can tell, there's no viable option to some sort of "bag" (whether it be paper or plastic) to transport said mixed greens from the produce department, to checkout, to home.

The funniest example of the "law of unintended consequences" might be the offerings in the toilet paper/paper towel department. Are those jumbo rolls of a dozen paper towels, or a dozen rolls of toilet paper, all now banned, since wrapped in a "single-use" plastic bag? Are they somehow different?

Is any plastic shrink-wrapped product encased in a forbidden "single-use bag" banned (think the meat counter at Safeway)?

Again, thanks to all the constructive and creative ideas. I especially liked the cotton bag, soak in a mild bleach, rinse, wash, repeat. I can live with that.
littlebird
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by littlebird »

[quote="dm200[If you are old enough], what did you do before there were grocery single use plastic bags?[/quote]

Not sure if you mean 1) What did we do to carry groceries, or

2)what did we do to contain garbage?

for 1 - paper sacks with or w/o handles

for 2 - we lined kitchen garbage pails carefully with newspaper then dumped them into a large pail, or incinerator, or in my mother's day, put them into a dumbwaiter and the building superintendent emptied and returned them each nite
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

john94549 wrote: The funniest example of the "law of unintended consequences" might be the offerings in the toilet paper/paper towel department. Are those jumbo rolls of a dozen paper towels, or a dozen rolls of toilet paper, all now banned, since wrapped in a "single-use" plastic bag? Are they somehow different?
I suspect they're different somehow, at least the mega collections of paper towels I've seen are encased in something that doesn't quite seem to be plastic. I looked on the web just now, but wasn't able to turn up any information. Anyone know?
Trader Joe
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Trader Joe »

We never use paper bags (they break) or reusable bags (they cost). We only use single use plastic bags (free).
lululu
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by lululu »

Trader Joe wrote:We never use paper bags (they break) or reusable bags (they cost). We only use single use plastic bags (free).
Not free, actually. Think of the long term global cost, i.e. the oceanic garbage patches, the death of many sea animals and birds from ingesting plastic. I'll spare you my including a photo of affected animals.
Valuethinker
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Valuethinker »

john94549 wrote:Given all the hype over the proposed ban, is this really an issue with the Boglehead community? One leading local grocer shifted to small paper bags (for produce and such) with no apparent impact. At checkout, I've always asked for "paper", and would be more than happy to pay a few cents for the privilege, as we use paper grocery bags for garbage disposal, in any event. Folks here at Trader Joe's and Whole Foods have designer re-use bags to carry out their groceries. While I've heard the issues regarding re-use bags and bacteria (etc.), isn't this something a spray disinfectant can remedy?

OK, in the off chance I have to go grocery shopping after the ban goes into effect, any hints would be appreciated.
The single use plastic bags are a nightmare. They clog up just about every park in the world, and beaches all over the world, and the inside of precious sea creatures. One of the oldest animals on earth, the sea turtle, is threatened by our profusion of plastic garbage--they swallow the bags and then starve to death or drown.

I am a sceptic that paper bags are better. If you do the full life cycle analysis, and you include the fact that paper bags are seldom reused, I suspect they are not that environmentally friendly-- you had to chop down a *tree* to make one (not all paper is recycled even in the best of all possible worlds). They do biodegrade which is a plus.

The key is reusable. Ireland put a 10p charge on bags about 15 years ago, and use dropped 90%. We are moving that way (UK) although in a typically clumsy way (too many exemptions, too confusing).

I really can't get worried about cross contamination. At the end of the day, you wash and cook your food before you eat it? Chicken is a worry but if you buy raw meat in any form, it is wrapped? Anti bacterials always worry me, because they breed bugs that can resist anti-bacterials.

You put a few reusable bags in the trunk of your car, and you always have them.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
gkaplan
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by gkaplan »

I use reusable bags that I purchased from Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. The third store from which I buy groceries, Fred Meyer, does not offer reusable bags, at least that I am aware of, so I use their paper bags to collect and dispose of recyclables.

Because I live on the tenth floor of a condo, I purchase plastic linings from Fred Meyer for trash (i.e., non-recyclables) to dispose of down a garbage chute.
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Valuethinker
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Valuethinker »

lululu wrote:
Trader Joe wrote:We never use paper bags (they break) or reusable bags (they cost). We only use single use plastic bags (free).
Not free, actually. Think of the long term global cost, i.e. the oceanic garbage patches, the death of many sea animals and birds from ingesting plastic. I'll spare you my including a photo of affected animals.
or even local. Most city parks are stuffed with these things, dangling from tree limbs etc. Local litter etc.

They are also made from petrochemicals. So there's another bad thing: increasing demand for oil, and oil props up all sorts of unsavory regimes (the world oil market is like a giant bathtub, it doesn't matter which country's oil you actually consume, at the end of the day if you consume a barrel of say Canadian oil, someone else consumes a barrel of Russian oil-- the price is pretty much the same, barring transport costs and different grades of crude, the world over).
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Aptenodytes »

The next frontier would be to tackle the way groceries are packaged for home delivery. We've been using home delivery for the past three years or so and would never go back. The very low delivery charge more than compensates for the avoided hassle. For things that really ought to be hand-picked, we buy on our own separately. Everything else is delivered.

But I hate that they deliver in paper+plastic bags. For regular customers they should be using reusable cartons -- collapsible would be nice but nesting would be fine. I'd happily pay a deposit on them.
tim1999
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by tim1999 »

I prefer the plastic bags at the grocery store because I re-use them as wastebasket liners at home, and therefore don't have to buy separate bags for that purpose. Sorry.

I also jokingly suspect that the store clerks where I shop are getting some kind of kickbacks from the plastic bag industry for using more bags. It's almost to the point where they put every other item in its own bag. Oh my God, the (sealed) jar of pickles is going to be contaminated by the bottle of shampoo! :oops: Gimmie a break.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

Aptenodytes wrote:The next frontier would be to tackle the way groceries are packaged for home delivery. We've been using home delivery for the past three years or so and would never go back. The very low delivery charge more than compensates for the avoided hassle. For things that really ought to be hand-picked, we buy on our own separately. Everything else is delivered.

But I hate that they deliver in paper+plastic bags. For regular customers they should be using reusable cartons -- collapsible would be nice but nesting would be fine. I'd happily pay a deposit on them.
I used peapod when I broke my leg, and the guy arrived with about 20 plastic bags. Criminey.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Epsilon Delta »

Cherokee8215 wrote: I also jokingly suspect that the store clerks where I shop are getting some kind of kickbacks from the plastic bag industry for using more bags. It's almost to the point where they put every other item in its own bag. Oh my God, the (sealed) jar of pickles is going to be contaminated by the bottle of shampoo! :oops: Gimmie a break.
It's a common denominator thing. The people who complain about shampoo and pickles in the same bag are louder than the ones that complain about extra bags. So the only solution is to be more obnoxious than the other side. :annoyed

I have the same problem getting the clerk to load ~30lb of cans into one strong, reusable bag. It takes a continual litany of "put everything in the bag", "Keep going", "I'll put it in the cart, you don't have to lift it". Buying a dozen bagels at Panera bread is a surreal experience. They triple bag everything, although each bag is entirely sufficient by itself.
yosh99
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by yosh99 »

Valuethinker wrote:
They are also made from petrochemicals. So there's another bad thing: increasing demand for oil, ...
No one drills and refines oil to make plastic bags, or even petrochemicals. The driver is gasoline and home heating oil while petrochemicals are largely byproducts, and very useful ones at that. Increasingly, olefins are coming from natural gas, of which there is an excess, and I would argue that it's better to convert (that is, concentrate) natural gas into something (re)usable like a plastic bag than to burn it off and spoil the atmosphere.

Arguments about "paper versus plastic" always strike me as being more about feeling good about one's world view and value system than much to do with anything environmentally useful (effect of litter aside). If one were to rank the damage we cause to the environment as individuals our driving has to be number one and home heating/air conditioning number two. Molecules are molecules and by my back of the envelope calculations driving a mile with a 20 mpg car consumes the equivalent of about 30 plastic bags per mile (5 g each). And to make matters worse, this process immediately puts about 1 pound/mile of CO2 into the atmosphere, exacerbating climate change. At least when a plastic bag is buried in a landfill it sequesters the carbon for a few hundred years.

Perhaps driving to the grocery store less frequently or moving closer into a smaller house is the most effective way to have a real impact on the environment.
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dm200
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by dm200 »

Several comments, experiences, "observations" -

1. I agree that these single use plastic bags (especially the very thin ones used by grocery stores) do create certain "environmental" problems - in yards, parks, trees, streams, and so on. That does not happen (to the same degree) with most paper bags.

2. I have not studied in detail the full environmental comparison of "paper vs. plastic", but I do believe there are (in some degree) offsetting environmental benefits of "plastic". Since they are much lighter, shipping and handling costs are lower (burns less fuel as well).

3. I occasionally take a reusable bag with me, but I often forget. The grocery store I use most gives a 5 cent credit for not using a bag. I usually do self checkout, so I only use as many plastic bags as I think I need. When I use the regular checkout, or when a clerk puts my self checkout items in bags, I notice they often double bag things that are heavier and often do not put as much in a bag as I would.

4. On this (paper vs plastic bags) and related issues like styrofoam cups, etc. I find that many of the anti-plastic bag, anti-styrofoam, and anti (some other things) - advocates (or zealots) are completely unwilling to consider any, however logical and correct, opposing opinion or view. I know quite a few of such folks and have encountered their "wrath" when I have even suggested that, in some cases, a styrofoam cup is "best". It seems, to me, very similar to religious fanaticism.

5. One (of many) key factor to whether some item is "good" or "bad" environmentally is whether that item decomposes over a short time or whether it might take 1,000 years to do so. So, for example, if a grocery plastic bag and a grocery plastic bag are tossed into the woods and sit there - what happens? Although I have not done the "experiment" , I would be pretty certain that, at least in climates with moderate rainfall, the plastic bag will be there in 3-5 years, while the paper will decompose. Advantage - paper! OK, but what happens when those two bags (one plastic, one paper) are put in the municipal trash and go to a "landfill". In most such "landfills", the garbage is sealed and both will be there for eternity. That is the same argument relating to styrofoam cups vs paper cups - etc. If you argue for use of regular glass/ceramic cups/glasses/mugs that must be washed each time, then there are enviromental costs/impacts to that. There is water, energy to heat the water, use of detergent/soap, etc. The "zealots", though, (in my experience) view my bringing up such issues much the same as a "heretic" is viewed in some societies.
Last edited by dm200 on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bungo
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Re: Paper or plastic?

Post by Bungo »

Single-use plastic bags have already been banned for several years where I live (San Jose). I bought a half-dozen reusable "jute" bags from Whole Foods and I've found that I much prefer using them, due to larger capacity, better handles, and relative indestructibility. The only slight adjustments I've had to make are (1) remember to put them back in the trunk of the car after unpacking, (2) remember to bring them into the store instead of leaving them in the trunk, and (3) I bought a few rolls of "dog waste" bags which had the disadvantage of not being free, but the advantage that they fit into a little container that can be attached to the dog's collar. :D
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