Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I am close to buying a home built in 1967. The inspection revealed the house has a aluminum wiring. All electrical sockets etc have 'pigtails' but the recommended caps were not used.
Is this a major concern? How many sockets and switches are in an average 2300 sq ft house?
Is this a major concern? How many sockets and switches are in an average 2300 sq ft house?
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Don't know if it's a code violation, but it's something that you should definitely have an electrician talk to you about before you purchase. If you've already laid down the deposit, then ask how much it would cost to bring up to specs. That was the standard at the time.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
A quick google search shows that aluminum wiring is not covered by homeowners insurance. Check with your insurance company to be sure.
I'd walk away unless this is fixed. If you do the repair after the sale, consider that your insurance is void until the repair is complete.
I'd walk away unless this is fixed. If you do the repair after the sale, consider that your insurance is void until the repair is complete.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
If you buy the house you'll have to have it re-wired with copper wire. Did the builder use conduit throughout the house? If he did it shouldn't be that much of a hassle but if they used Romex it could be a real pain. How big is the service? In this day and age you'll want at least a 200 amp service. Maybe even 400 amps depending upon your needs.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Replacing the wiring with copper is the best mmethod, but not always possible. Sometimess a combination of replacing the accesible wiring and also using COPALUM connectors is a good alternative. I lived in a condo many years ago and we investigated this for the homeowners. The insurance company gave it their blessing.
But you'd certainly want your prosepctive home insrurer to give you a guarantee that they would view this as acceptable.
http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/118856/516.pdf
But you'd certainly want your prosepctive home insrurer to give you a guarantee that they would view this as acceptable.
http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/118856/516.pdf
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. - Will Rogers
- danwhite77
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:21 am
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Long story short there is no good way to mate copper and aluminum. They don't even make the best product anymore, the "copalum" product, due to liability concerns. Get a licensed electrician to come out and give you an estimate on rewiring it all. If it's all in conduit that shouldn't be too difficult. But there is no acceptable shortcut. Aluminum simply needs to be removed.
Last edited by danwhite77 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"While some mutual fund founders chose to make billions, he chose to make a difference." - Dedication to Jack Bogle in 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing'.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I walked away from a house that had knobe and tube wiring. The electrical wasn't even grounded. 30K to rip it out and put it in correctly with permits. That's not including fixing the walls and repainting. You may be able to get a better quote. Out of 5 insurance companies, only 1 would insure us. The agent said we just had to tell them that we would fix it within 6 months. Without homeowner insurance, we couldn't get the mortgage. I could have rolled the dice and assumed that the home insurance company wouldn't inspect the house.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
This is not correct. You can see the "Copalum" product for sale here.danwhite77 wrote:I had this issue. Long story short there is no good way to mate copper and aluminum. They don't even make the best product anymore, the "copalum" product, due to liability concerns. Get a licensed electrician to come out and give ou an estimate on rewiring it all. If it's all in conduit that shouldn't be too difficult. But there is no acceptable shortcut. Aluminum simply needs to be removed.
http://www.te.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/10914/968
There is nothing inherently unsafe about aluminum wiring except its direct connection to switches and fixtures. You can use Copalum connectors to provide safe copper wire connections to your switches and fixtures. Copalum connnectors are approved by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC).
If unapproved pigtails were used, you should insist that an allowance on the price be made to bring the wiring up to code using approved Copalum pigtails. This is much cheaper than completely rewiring the house and just as safe. Check with your insurance company that Copalum is approved. If they don't give an allowance for Copalum upgrade, pass on this house as you are unlikely to get homeowners insurance.
-
- Posts: 436
- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:38 am
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
You will need both a decent price reduction, and the patience to oversee a whole-house rewiring, including the time to properly snake wires behind walls, and all the fixtures redone. Period. Given the home's age, I'd probably also have them do a brand new interior breaker panel, including some 220 volt lines for washer/dryer room. I'd also install a 220-volt line in the garage, for a future electric car (just get it done with the rewiring, it will be a miniscule cost addon).
Aluminum wiring is terrible. It does not marry well to copper, which is what you'll be splicing and plugging as you connect fixtures or make junctions. A single arc or short at the copper-aluminum interface, and you've got a house fire. I would never, ever live in a place with aluminum wiring. Don't take my word for it. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/reale ... 9home.html
Aluminum wiring is terrible. It does not marry well to copper, which is what you'll be splicing and plugging as you connect fixtures or make junctions. A single arc or short at the copper-aluminum interface, and you've got a house fire. I would never, ever live in a place with aluminum wiring. Don't take my word for it. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/reale ... 9home.html
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
And if you take the word of your link, Copalum is a perfectly safe and cheaper alternative to rewiring the entire house.DualIncomeNoDebt wrote:Don't take my word for it. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/reale ... 9home.html
Check out the cost of a Copalum upgrade and check with your insurance company for acceptance. Completely rewiring the house is a waste of money.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
We are having an electrician come to inspect and estimate the Copalum upgrade work.
I think rewiring the whole house would be cost prohibitive. Our inspector said in his many years of experience is that is almost never done (not that he was dissuading us to) .
What is the issue with Copalum route?
I think rewiring the whole house would be cost prohibitive. Our inspector said in his many years of experience is that is almost never done (not that he was dissuading us to) .
What is the issue with Copalum route?
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
One issue is that occasionally you can have a switch or junction box that is crammed pretty tight with wires so that you need a larger box to accommodate the Copalum connectors. This means cutting out some drywall for a bigger box and maybe some drywall repair and painting. This is not very common but still much cheaper than rewiring the entire house. Your electrician should be able to tell you about such issues in the estimate.jcb3030 wrote:What is the issue with Copalum route?
-
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:03 pm
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
My dad is an electrician and I worked with him and others in the business for some years. I have limited experience, but agree wholeheartedly with Jack here on his posts about this. The problem with aluminum is not where it runs in the wires, but where it's exposed at the tips to air. With the right pigtails/connectors/installation, you should have an equally safe set up. Hopefully you have a good contractor making the bid on the house and that will give you the most exact information. Only thing I would add is that some contractors low-ball the initial bid so that they can reap the "change orders" once the project is underway, though I'm not sure how the dynamic of them bidding on a job for a prospective buyer would affect that.Jack wrote:One issue is that occasionally you can have a switch or junction box that is crammed pretty tight with wires so that you need a larger box to accommodate the Copalum connectors. This means cutting out some drywall for a bigger box and maybe some drywall repair and painting. This is not very common but still much cheaper than rewiring the entire house. Your electrician should be able to tell you about such issues in the estimate.jcb3030 wrote:What is the issue with Copalum route?
-
- Posts: 2094
- Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
The safety of knob and tube wiring:
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advic ... ring.shtml
In my 100 year old house the visible stuff was in fine shape. The electrician (an old experienced guy) said to leave it alone and I did.
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advic ... ring.shtml
In my 100 year old house the visible stuff was in fine shape. The electrician (an old experienced guy) said to leave it alone and I did.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
What safety or other issue exists now that has not existed since the place was built 40+ years ago?
Sounds like it has stood the test of time.
Sounds like it has stood the test of time.
Pale Blue Dot
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
4nursebee wrote:What safety or other issue exists now that has not existed since the place was built 40+ years ago?
Sounds like it has stood the test of time.
Not according to the article in the NY Times
"While it might be tempting to believe that a home with aluminum wiring is safe because the wiring hasn't caused a problem for 30 or 40 years, that is a dangerous misconception. In fact, Mr. Friedman said, the longer the connection is allowed to deteriorate, the more likely it is a problem will occur."
Full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/reale ... 9home.html
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
The first insurance co. I called for a homeowners quote WILL NOT insure with aluminum wiring, REGARDLESS of Copalum upgrades or not.
Not a good start...calling more.
Not a good start...calling more.
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Aluminum is a big no-no, another big no-no is knob and tube. I know about the latter first hand, my home had to be completely re-wired after the insurance company told me "no copper, no grounds, no insurance". The selling homeowner had to pony up $5K (cheap back then) to re-wire and the funny thing about it, was the town inspectors allowed the installation of a new 200 amp box with knob and tube connected to it. The licensed electrical contractor I hired just shook his head at that and said it was a "ticking time bomb (just a matter of time)" waiting to go off.jcb3030 wrote:The first insurance co. I called for a homeowners quote WILL NOT insure with aluminum wiring, REGARDLESS of Copalum upgrades or not.
Not a good start...calling more.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
-
- Posts: 25625
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Good luck when you go to sell - insurance companies will not underwrite "knob and tube", it's a fire hazard.dolphinsaremammals wrote:The safety of knob and tube wiring:
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advic ... ring.shtml
In my 100 year old house the visible stuff was in fine shape. The electrician (an old experienced guy) said to leave it alone and I did.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Yes. And also the entire continent of Europe is ungrounded, and they don't have any more fires than we do.dolphinsaremammals wrote:The safety of knob and tube wiring:
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advic ... ring.shtml
In my 100 year old house the visible stuff was in fine shape. The electrician (an old experienced guy) said to leave it alone and I did.
"have more than thou showest, |
speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Your real estate agent will be able to set up a escrow agreement with the seller and have them front the money for the entire repair (something like 150% of the bid). The unused escrow funds are returned to the seller after the job is done to your satisfaction. Demand the seller take the risk of cost overruns this way, unless they are willing to drop the price more than the cost of the upgrade.jcb3030 wrote:We are having an electrician come to inspect and estimate the Copalum upgrade work.
I think rewiring the whole house would be cost prohibitive. Our inspector said in his many years of experience is that is almost never done (not that he was dissuading us to) .
What is the issue with Copalum route?
4X top-twenty S&P 500 prognosticator. I'd start a newsletter, but it would only have one issue per year. |
dumb investor during 1999 tech bubble, current slice & dicer.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
The copalum pigtails may be a sound technical solution however there are always going to be eyebrows raised when aluminum wiring is mentioned.
It seems to me that half measures are going to prove to be a waste of money long-term.
It seems to me that half measures are going to prove to be a waste of money long-term.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
If you don't get it replaced, you should consider what this might mean for when you go to sell the house. I don't think the trend is towards more people being OK with aluminum wiring. Any negativity that you hear now is probably going to be worse if you look to sell in 15 years. It will be slower, more expensive and more stressful to try to unload a house that still has aluminum wiring.
-
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:46 pm
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
While I cannot say this is untrue everywhere, I can say it's not true in Massachusetts. I had no problem getting quotes and eventually coverage from several nationally known insurers in 2010 and again 2013 for a c1910 house with some knob and tube.Grt2bOutdoors wrote: insurance companies will not underwrite "knob and tube"
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
So far I've gotten 3 of 6 insurers to confirm quotes with aluminum wiring - if we did one one of the CPC fixes (http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/118856/516.pdf)
Does anyone know what insurers are more likely to cover aluminum wiring? I'm contacting them randomly now.
Does anyone know what insurers are more likely to cover aluminum wiring? I'm contacting them randomly now.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Don't forget the money you put in for this is not going to increase the value of the house.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Seller will be paying or we won't buy.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I recently purchased a house with AL wiring and had it completely replaced. My original plan was to simply pigtail but I quickly realized this was not a viable option.
One of the issues with pigtailing is the need to find every single electrical junction box. Yes, in a perfect world they should all be accessible but in reality you have no idea what is going on behind the walls in the house. People do stupid things and aluminum wiring magnifies the potential problems stupidity can cause. Even boxes that aren't completely hidden can be hard to find in the attic, basement, etc. After going through this I would not do it again.
I also can't speak to the history of your house but chances are at some point since it was built in 1967 someone did some stupid things related to the wiring. Think extension cords in walls, not wire nutting grounds together, over loading circuits, mixing 12 and 14 gauge wire etc. There are many homeowners, handymen who think they know how to wire and end up causing very unsafe situations. For some reason I think this is more prevalent with electric then with other trades.
One of the issues with pigtailing is the need to find every single electrical junction box. Yes, in a perfect world they should all be accessible but in reality you have no idea what is going on behind the walls in the house. People do stupid things and aluminum wiring magnifies the potential problems stupidity can cause. Even boxes that aren't completely hidden can be hard to find in the attic, basement, etc. After going through this I would not do it again.
I also can't speak to the history of your house but chances are at some point since it was built in 1967 someone did some stupid things related to the wiring. Think extension cords in walls, not wire nutting grounds together, over loading circuits, mixing 12 and 14 gauge wire etc. There are many homeowners, handymen who think they know how to wire and end up causing very unsafe situations. For some reason I think this is more prevalent with electric then with other trades.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
How much was it to rewire you whole house? I've got 2300 sq ft.
-
- Posts: 2630
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Another thing you will have to watch out for is whether you might run into an issue with mortgage lenders. They've been getting really picky in recent years, and AL wiring might come into play there as well.
Personally, I long ago resolved to avoid houses with AL wiring if at all possible, and I've done that across five purchases over the years. But I've figured that if a house really stood out in other areas important to us, I would not outright reject it just because of AL wiring. I would probably be willing to live with wiring that had been pigtailed with good workmanship, but I would definitely recognize that the house would carry a stigma at resale time, and at any remodelling opportunity I'd be replacing the AL.
Rewiring costs can vary quite a bit depending on how accessible the wiring can be. Running new wires to the outlets can be much easier in some houses than in others; a single story house with crawlspace or unfinished basement will probably be easiest, but even there the labor cost will dwarf the materials. In HCOL areas, this is where sometimes you end up pulling down all the drywall; you can then run all new wiring to modern standards and add full insulation as well (more realistic on a $1M house than on a $200K one).
Personally, I long ago resolved to avoid houses with AL wiring if at all possible, and I've done that across five purchases over the years. But I've figured that if a house really stood out in other areas important to us, I would not outright reject it just because of AL wiring. I would probably be willing to live with wiring that had been pigtailed with good workmanship, but I would definitely recognize that the house would carry a stigma at resale time, and at any remodelling opportunity I'd be replacing the AL.
Rewiring costs can vary quite a bit depending on how accessible the wiring can be. Running new wires to the outlets can be much easier in some houses than in others; a single story house with crawlspace or unfinished basement will probably be easiest, but even there the labor cost will dwarf the materials. In HCOL areas, this is where sometimes you end up pulling down all the drywall; you can then run all new wiring to modern standards and add full insulation as well (more realistic on a $1M house than on a $200K one).
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
This could impact my ability to get a mortgage? Whoa...
-
- Posts: 2630
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I doubt that it would be as extreme as "no mortgage", as long as you have your insurance in line, but it might be an issue with some lenders, or with getting the best rates.jcb3030 wrote:This could impact my ability to get a mortgage? Whoa...
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I'm still stuck on the "some insurance carriers won't cover Al wiring" part. If you have to shop to find a carrier, something is wrong with this picture.
If you had a business need and absolutely had to have this house, I could see shopping around.
You're looking at something "I might want" - which is a very different situation. Already, you've come across several problematic situations and are willing to take risks that, IMHO, are not worth it.
Buyers remorse can last a l-o-n-g time.
If you had a business need and absolutely had to have this house, I could see shopping around.
You're looking at something "I might want" - which is a very different situation. Already, you've come across several problematic situations and are willing to take risks that, IMHO, are not worth it.
Buyers remorse can last a l-o-n-g time.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I hear you. But not-buying remorse can last a long time, too.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Is there a 2nd choice home you could pursue instead? Are there family members involved with the decision?
It's far easier to stew on a "what if" situation that you've walked away from than a 30 year commitment which will cost $$$ and a lot of grief to get out of.
If you are even thinking about walking away from this, follow your instincts.
It's far easier to stew on a "what if" situation that you've walked away from than a 30 year commitment which will cost $$$ and a lot of grief to get out of.
If you are even thinking about walking away from this, follow your instincts.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
There are a lot of ignorant people here blowing smoke. FHA and VA accept aluminum wiring and I don't know of any other lenders that won't either. They may want to inspect the Copalum work to be sure it is done right, as to be expected.jcb3030 wrote:This could impact my ability to get a mortgage? Whoa...
Make sure that your electrician is specifically licensed for Copalum and that he gives you a certificate to that effect. You can present that certificate to any future buyer when you sell the home.
Some insurers won't quote you over the phone because they want to have their inspector look at the repair work first. There has been some shoddy pigtail work done over the years by unqualified electricians. If you use an electrician licensed specifically for Copalum work and present that document, you shouldn't have any real problems.
- danwhite77
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:21 am
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I'm not sure if people around here are purchasing aluminum futures, but here are two facts of which I am certain.
First, I have seen aluminum wiring mated to copper wiring fail and leave a molten mess inside an electrical box. That's scary.
Second, my relative who has been an electrician for over 25 years told me about an experience where he saw aluminum wiring glow red hot inside of an electrical box while the outlet had an electric heater plugged into it.
Do not rely on an inspector or an electrician recommended by the buyer's (your) or seller's agent. Real estate agents find inspectors who will gloss over significant issues because the agent simply wants to be paid the commission for the sale and the inspection is a possible obstacle to the sale.
Ask yourself if you're comfortable with ignition sources within your home's walls. If the answer is yes, buy the house. If the answer is no, either replace all of the aluminum wiring or buy a different house.
First, I have seen aluminum wiring mated to copper wiring fail and leave a molten mess inside an electrical box. That's scary.
Second, my relative who has been an electrician for over 25 years told me about an experience where he saw aluminum wiring glow red hot inside of an electrical box while the outlet had an electric heater plugged into it.
Do not rely on an inspector or an electrician recommended by the buyer's (your) or seller's agent. Real estate agents find inspectors who will gloss over significant issues because the agent simply wants to be paid the commission for the sale and the inspection is a possible obstacle to the sale.
Ask yourself if you're comfortable with ignition sources within your home's walls. If the answer is yes, buy the house. If the answer is no, either replace all of the aluminum wiring or buy a different house.
"While some mutual fund founders chose to make billions, he chose to make a difference." - Dedication to Jack Bogle in 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing'.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Well, as I was saying above -- case in point.danwhite77 wrote:I'm not sure if people around here are purchasing aluminum futures, but here are two facts of which I am certain.
First, I have seen aluminum wiring mated to copper wiring fail and leave a molten mess inside an electrical box. That's scary.
Second, my relative who has been an electrician for over 25 years told me about an experience where he saw aluminum wiring glow red hot inside of an electrical box while the outlet had an electric heater plugged into it.
Do not rely on an inspector or an electrician recommended by the buyer's (your) or seller's agent. Real estate agents find inspectors who will gloss over significant issues because the agent simply wants to be paid the commission for the sale and the inspection is a possible obstacle to the sale.
Just twisting aluminum to copper is stupid and dangerous. That's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about Copalum connectors which have been proven safe by three decades of experience and approved by the government's Consumer Products Safety Commission.
Did you know that every house in the U.S. built today has aluminum wire connecting the utility pole right into the circuit breaker panel in your house? It's installed there by your electrical utility. Most of the wires running down your street are aluminum. The 500,000 volt long distance transmission lines are aluminum. Aluminum wiring is perfectly safe if terminated properly.danwhite77 wrote:Ask yourself if you're comfortable with ignition sources within your home's walls.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I don't know what to believe here. I hear two very different opinions in this thread. I don't want to cherry-pick the data that only supports my bias to buy the home.
When I read the CPC publication there seems to be a reasonable solution:
COPALUM Method of Repair - CPSC staff considers pigtailing with a COPALUM connector to be a safe and permanent repair of the existing aluminum wiring. The COPALUM repair method is recommended by CPSC on the basis of CPSCsponsored research, laboratory tests, and demonstration projects. This repair method has been thoroughly proven by more than a quarter of a century of field experience to provide a permanent, low-resistance electrical connection to aluminum wire. The COPALUM repair method eliminates the aluminum connection failure problems and still uses the existing, installed aluminum wire. The COPALUM repair method has been shown to be practical for installation in an occupied and furnished home.
When I read the CPC publication there seems to be a reasonable solution:
COPALUM Method of Repair - CPSC staff considers pigtailing with a COPALUM connector to be a safe and permanent repair of the existing aluminum wiring. The COPALUM repair method is recommended by CPSC on the basis of CPSCsponsored research, laboratory tests, and demonstration projects. This repair method has been thoroughly proven by more than a quarter of a century of field experience to provide a permanent, low-resistance electrical connection to aluminum wire. The COPALUM repair method eliminates the aluminum connection failure problems and still uses the existing, installed aluminum wire. The COPALUM repair method has been shown to be practical for installation in an occupied and furnished home.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I knew the engineer who invented the COPALUMN connector, and I was involved in testing it over a multi-year period. I have complete faith that it works, and it will continue to work for a long time. IF it is installed correctly.
That being said, I personally wouldn't buy home with aluminum wiring unless it came with a significant discount. Maybe 35-30 percent below typical market.
Mostly this is about perceptions. But there is also the reality that it's hard to guarantee that every single copper/aluminum joint has been located and connected correctly.
And God forbid, but what if there ever is a fire? Who knows where it might actually start, but it's easy to worry that some insurance adjuster might blame it on the wiring, and deny the claim. And how's a home owner going to fight that?
So while I have complete faith in the wiring myself (again, when done properly), I would hesitate to buy into an unknown situation. It will always be a nagging issue hanging over the house. Only if it was to be my "last" house, and I could mostly self insure, would I go for it if the price was right.
That being said, I personally wouldn't buy home with aluminum wiring unless it came with a significant discount. Maybe 35-30 percent below typical market.
Mostly this is about perceptions. But there is also the reality that it's hard to guarantee that every single copper/aluminum joint has been located and connected correctly.
And God forbid, but what if there ever is a fire? Who knows where it might actually start, but it's easy to worry that some insurance adjuster might blame it on the wiring, and deny the claim. And how's a home owner going to fight that?
So while I have complete faith in the wiring myself (again, when done properly), I would hesitate to buy into an unknown situation. It will always be a nagging issue hanging over the house. Only if it was to be my "last" house, and I could mostly self insure, would I go for it if the price was right.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Yet more ignorant fear mongering. No, an insurance company can't do that.bhsince87 wrote:And God forbid, but what if there ever is a fire? Who knows where it might actually start, but it's easy to worry that some insurance adjuster might blame it on the wiring, and deny the claim. And how's a home owner going to fight that?
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
We are certainly not getting a discount on the home price. We'll be asking for seller to pay for the electrical work, but that's it. Tough call.
-
- Posts: 2985
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:41 am
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I have had three (minor) fires due to aluminum wiring, two in outlets, one in a light switch. One of these was in military housing, the others in rental houses.
All of these had standard switches/outlets wired directly to the aluminum wiring with none of the COPALUMN or special compound for aluminum applied.
My electrician told me that the problem with aluminum was its greater thermal expansion under load which tended to loosen the connection over time and cause arcing.
As others have said, if your wiring is in conduit, it is easy to replace, and not very costly. Some places have very strict electrical building codes that require solid conduit, which is easiest to rewire, some require at least flex conduit behind drywall, and the most lax allow Romex anywhere. Find out what you have before purchase.
Based on the age of the house, it is highly likely that at least some rewiring has been done.
Ralph
All of these had standard switches/outlets wired directly to the aluminum wiring with none of the COPALUMN or special compound for aluminum applied.
My electrician told me that the problem with aluminum was its greater thermal expansion under load which tended to loosen the connection over time and cause arcing.
As others have said, if your wiring is in conduit, it is easy to replace, and not very costly. Some places have very strict electrical building codes that require solid conduit, which is easiest to rewire, some require at least flex conduit behind drywall, and the most lax allow Romex anywhere. Find out what you have before purchase.
Based on the age of the house, it is highly likely that at least some rewiring has been done.
Ralph
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
you've got the cart ahead of the horse with all this discussion.
there is no way the seller is going to foot the bill once they get the estimates. You're talking a decent 5 figure project. A full house gut and rewire?
they're going to kindly tell you to walk, negotiating for this stipulation is essentially the same as telling offering them 25-35k less for the house than list.
---
they'll pass and hold out that future perspective buyers won't be as in tune with, or terrified of possible aluminum wiring issues.
there is no way the seller is going to foot the bill once they get the estimates. You're talking a decent 5 figure project. A full house gut and rewire?
they're going to kindly tell you to walk, negotiating for this stipulation is essentially the same as telling offering them 25-35k less for the house than list.
---
they'll pass and hold out that future perspective buyers won't be as in tune with, or terrified of possible aluminum wiring issues.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
We are not asking buyer to pay for rewiring the whole house. We are asking them to pay for the COPALUM repair - much cheaper. If they refuse, we walk.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Yet more ignorance. I Copalum rewire will cost a few thousand, not $10,000.willie838 wrote:there is no way the seller is going to foot the bill once they get the estimates. You're talking a decent 5 figure project. A full house gut and rewire?
[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
I did a brief search on the Copalum thing, saw an estimate for $50 per outlet.
Tool is rented, unable to find somewhere to buy it.
There is a $12-13 part that might be comparable, used to join/splice wires. It might work for this.
Tool is rented, unable to find somewhere to buy it.
There is a $12-13 part that might be comparable, used to join/splice wires. It might work for this.
Pale Blue Dot
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Jack wrote:Yet more ignorant fear mongering. No, an insurance company can't do that.bhsince87 wrote:And God forbid, but what if there ever is a fire? Who knows where it might actually start, but it's easy to worry that some insurance adjuster might blame it on the wiring, and deny the claim. And how's a home owner going to fight that?
I would expect it's normal for people to worry about this kind of thing happening. And if so, that would naturally impact the resale value.
But I admit, I'm not a real estate agent or a psychologist. Maybe enough people ignore it that it's not an issue that affects price.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
AMP leases the Copalum crimping tools only to certified electricians who have been trained by a factory specialist. You cannot buy the tool because that prevents anyone from selling it to an uncertified contractor. The tool applies 10,000 pounds of pressure on the crimp to create a permanent cold weld. The crimp connectors cost a dollar or two each, depending on wire size. You are paying mostly for labor.4nursebee wrote:I did a brief search on the Copalum thing, saw an estimate for $50 per outlet.
Tool is rented, unable to find somewhere to buy it.
There is a $12-13 part that might be comparable, used to join/splice wires. It might work for this.
An alternative is the set screw AlumiConn connector, which CPSC considers a permanent repair, but they don't have the 30-year history of Copalum.
The one thing you want to be sure to avoid are the purple Al/Cu wire nuts. They are not considered a permanent repair.
Re: Buying a home with aluminum wiring?
Not to pick on you, but people worry about a lot of things they don't understand. This is how the conversation has gone so far:bhsince87 wrote:I would expect it's normal for people to worry about this kind of thing happening.
1. "A quick google search shows that aluminum wiring is not covered by homeowners insurance."
Not true. The OP already has three quotes from home insurance companies allowing aluminum wiring.
2. "If you buy the house you'll have to have it re-wired with copper wire."
Not true. You can repair the existing wiring with Copalum splices.
3. "Long story short there is no good way to mate copper and aluminum."
Not true. The Consumer Product Safety Commission approves Copalum splices for mating copper and aluminum. This splice has a 30-year safety record.
4. "They don't even make the best product anymore, the "copalum" product, due to liability concerns."
Not true. You can see a link to the product here. http://www.te.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/10914/968 The product is recommended and approved by the CPSC.
5. "I walked away from a house that had knobe and tube wiring. The electrical wasn't even grounded."
Knob and tube is not the same as aluminum wiring. Aluminum wiring is all modern, three-wire grounded systems.
6. "You will need both a decent price reduction, and the patience to oversee a whole-house rewiring, including the time to properly snake wires behind walls, and all the fixtures redone. Period."
Not true. Copalum splices are CPSC approved and a fraction of the cost of whole-house rewiring. It can be done in a couple of days.
7. "I would never, ever live in a place with aluminum wiring. Don't take my word for it." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/reale ... 9home.html
So we don't need to take your word for it. If we go to the very link you provided, the article indicates that Copalum is a safe alternative to completely rewiring.
8. "Don't forget the money you put in for this is not going to increase the value of the house."
Of course it will increase the value of the house. As it stands, the house will be difficult to sell. After repairs it will be easy to sell. The value of the house is increased immensely.
9. "One of the issues with pigtailing is the need to find every single electrical junction box. Yes, in a perfect world they should all be accessible but in reality you have no idea what is going on behind the walls in the house."
This is just fear-mongering. Any house can have dangerous amateur wiring, even with copper wires. An experienced electrician can recognize the signs of unapproved wiring. They also can trace all wires with a simple electronic circuit tracer. There aren't "hidden" boxes.
10. "Another thing you will have to watch out for is whether you might run into an issue with mortgage lenders."
Aluminum wiring is approved by FHA and VA, who have probably the most thorough inspection requirements of all lenders. If you can get it insured, you can get a mortgage. The OP already has three quotes from insurers approving the aluminum wiring.
11. "Already, you've come across several problematic situations and are willing to take risks that, IMHO, are not worth it."
What problematic conditions and risks? There is a deficiency and there is a remedy. It is no different than a house that needs a new roof or new furnace before closing a sale. I realize that people are scared of electricity, but you shouldn't be ruled by ignorance and fear.
12. "First, I have seen aluminum wiring mated to copper wiring fail and leave a molten mess inside an electrical box. That's scary."
If you use unapproved connectors (for example purple Al/Cu wire nuts), yes, that can happen. We are not talking about unapproved connectors.
13. "Ask yourself if you're comfortable with ignition sources within your home's walls. If the answer is yes, buy the house. If the answer is no, either replace all of the aluminum wiring or buy a different house."
Copalum splicing eliminates those "ignition sources." By the way, almost every home in the U.S. today uses aluminum wire for the service entrance to their home. Are you going to abandon your home because you have an "ignition source?"
14. "And God forbid, but what if there ever is a fire? Who knows where it might actually start, but it's easy to worry that some insurance adjuster might blame it on the wiring, and deny the claim."
No, an insurance company cannot deny your insurance claim because you have aluminum wiring. Houses burn down all the time due to "wiring" like extension cords on the floor or even stupid candles. The insurance company always pays the claim. The OP already has quotes from at least three insurers that approve aluminum wiring that has been properly repaired.
15. "My electrician told me that the problem with aluminum was its greater thermal expansion under load which tended to loosen the connection over time and cause arcing."
The Copalum connection is made under 10,000 pounds of pressure to provide a permanent cold weld.
16. "There is no way the seller is going to foot the bill once they get the estimates. You're talking a decent 5 figure project. A full house gut and rewire? they're going to kindly tell you to walk, negotiating for this stipulation is essentially the same as telling offering them 25-35k less for the house than list."
A Copalum repair is going to cost a few thousand dollars, not 25K to 35K.
17. "I did a brief search on the Copalum thing, saw an estimate for $50 per outlet. Tool is rented, unable to find somewhere to buy it."
The tool can only be leased from the manufacturer of the Copalum connectors. They will lease only to factory trained electricians. This is to prevent do-it-your-selfers from attempting this repair. This is one of the reasons Copalum is recommended by the CPSC -- if you see Copalum, you can be assured it was installed only by factory certified electricians.