College Counselors
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College Counselors
Looking for some help in finding a college counselor/advisor to work with our senior son. Having chosen a public high school, we've saved tuition but now have to deal with the realities of 400 kids per counselor. We're mainly looking for someone to help get our son organized and the essays written/edited. His target schools are the Ivies, NESCACs and UCs. Also, how much do these services cost? For those that have used them, has there been good value in the services received.
Please PM me with any specific referrals. Thanks for the help.
Please PM me with any specific referrals. Thanks for the help.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
It might be helpful if you told us a bit about him, both in terms of stats and "what he's like."
You say he's interested in schools belonging to two East Coast athletic conferences and also UC. That's an odd grouping; what's the common thread? Is he likely to be a recruited athlete? Do you live in California?
You say he's interested in schools belonging to two East Coast athletic conferences and also UC. That's an odd grouping; what's the common thread? Is he likely to be a recruited athlete? Do you live in California?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
Would a place like collegeconfidential generate more counselor leads?
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
PS. Using Hernandez College Consulting can cost you $42,000. There are more reasonable alternatives, including doing research yourself and him facing the realities of college admissions. My son is a procrastinator, but managed to get 2 applications in on time for Early Action, was pleasantly surprised, and got to enjoy the rest of his senior year without the anxiety of waiting.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
Yes probably. They might or might not be more useful.livesoft wrote:Would a place like collegeconfidential generate more counselor leads?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College Counselors
Two teachers at the HS where I teach had been doing that sort of thing on the side and finally this year they both quit teaching to take on private college counseling full time. I'm guessing it is the same in most relatively affluent communities around the country.
I would call your local HS counselor and ask if they have any local referrals. Anyone doing this sort of thing in your area will for sure be acquainted and in touch with the local HS counselors.
Although I suppose there is no particular reason you need to hire someone local, if you just want organizational advice and essay editing.
My daughter will be a junior this year and we are just starting the process, although mainly looking at state schools in Texas and the surrounding states. We have already done road trips to the colleges we are most interested in and have sat through their admissions presentations. Although in our case it isn't really a question of admissions so much as a question of how much scholarships she will earn as the big schools pretty much just operate on a formula based on GPA and SAT scores. We will be doing an SAT prep course but I have no intention of hiring anyone to do the sort of counseling you are talking about.
I would call your local HS counselor and ask if they have any local referrals. Anyone doing this sort of thing in your area will for sure be acquainted and in touch with the local HS counselors.
Although I suppose there is no particular reason you need to hire someone local, if you just want organizational advice and essay editing.
My daughter will be a junior this year and we are just starting the process, although mainly looking at state schools in Texas and the surrounding states. We have already done road trips to the colleges we are most interested in and have sat through their admissions presentations. Although in our case it isn't really a question of admissions so much as a question of how much scholarships she will earn as the big schools pretty much just operate on a formula based on GPA and SAT scores. We will be doing an SAT prep course but I have no intention of hiring anyone to do the sort of counseling you are talking about.
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Re: College Counselors
Are there really 400 students per counciler or is the class 400 and you only know one counciler there?
My son graduated in June and besides the school parent nights for everything from college application process through fafsa fill out night, I felt my son had plenty of access. We personally met with the counciler a few times. My son applied to 3 colleges (we did a good job of elimination with research and visits) and was accepted to all 3. Is going to the school that was the best fit for him. Looking back, I don't know what we would have used a counciler for.
Do the SAT and if he wants, ACT. Get the visits done, do fafsa when it opens (the day it opens, if possible, but you really don't have to then), naviance research, understand job prospects for the major and salary upon graduation. Apply, look for scholarships.
If you're doing this for the first time, it looks more complicated than it really is.
My son graduated in June and besides the school parent nights for everything from college application process through fafsa fill out night, I felt my son had plenty of access. We personally met with the counciler a few times. My son applied to 3 colleges (we did a good job of elimination with research and visits) and was accepted to all 3. Is going to the school that was the best fit for him. Looking back, I don't know what we would have used a counciler for.
Do the SAT and if he wants, ACT. Get the visits done, do fafsa when it opens (the day it opens, if possible, but you really don't have to then), naviance research, understand job prospects for the major and salary upon graduation. Apply, look for scholarships.
If you're doing this for the first time, it looks more complicated than it really is.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
My son's GC left to start a private practice after the past season. I guess the money is tempting.texasdiver wrote:Two teachers at the HS where I teach had been doing that sort of thing on the side and finally this year they both quit teaching to take on private college counseling full time. I'm guessing it is the same in most relatively affluent communities around the country.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. I spoke to no counselors and just read 1-2 magazines. I wrote the college entrance essays all by myself with no one checking them and I ended up in a decent UC school.
This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
If the target is "the Ivies, NESCACs and UCs," it can be pretty complicated, especially finding additional schools as matches and safeties.Jack FFR1846 wrote:If you're doing this for the first time, it looks more complicated than it really is.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
It will not necessarily improve your chances. We have the money, but decided that we did not want to run the risk of our son appearing "packaged." College admissions officers can smell that from a mile away. My son spent two hours with a tutor (at $75 per) who showed him how to approach the writing portion of the SAT, which he was worried about. His essays were looked at by his best friend and his girlfriend, whose essays in turn were read by my son. All 3 (girlfriend, best friend, and son) got their apps in for the Early Action deadline, and all 3 got into their first choice school. Much Senioritis ensuedcheesepep wrote:This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College Counselors
So for a little more background, son is a good student high GPA 3.9/4.8 who has taken the tough classes. Ok SAT scores. Recruited athlete at some schools, e.g, NESCACs, but not D1. We live in CA, thus the UCs are a great option. Financial aid is not in the picture. We actually saved up for this in our kids 529s. He is firmly in the undecided camp as to major. He has been a jack of all trades kind of kid. Has spent most of his extra-curricular time on athletics, as he is a 2 sport athlete.
The counseling ratio is really 400:1, as the funding for education in CA is not as high as it should be.
He's looking for a high quality college, where he can also have a decent social life. Wants to take the first year or two to figure out his major. Would prefer a school on the larger side.
We have the resources to pay for a counselor, but would not consider something in the $40,000 league. I honestly am not sure what the costs are like for several months of work. The local counselors quite frankly don't focus enough on the highly selective colleges and lack the relationships with their admissions offices, which is part of what you're paying for.
The counseling ratio is really 400:1, as the funding for education in CA is not as high as it should be.
He's looking for a high quality college, where he can also have a decent social life. Wants to take the first year or two to figure out his major. Would prefer a school on the larger side.
We have the resources to pay for a counselor, but would not consider something in the $40,000 league. I honestly am not sure what the costs are like for several months of work. The local counselors quite frankly don't focus enough on the highly selective colleges and lack the relationships with their admissions offices, which is part of what you're paying for.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
Livesoft's suggestion of collegeconfidential.com is a good one. Spend some time there, and get a few of the college books (Insider's Guide to Colleges and the like).
Some of my favorite schools are part of NESCAC, but the transportation issues should not be ignored if you live in CA. I dropped my son off for a freshman orientation trip today, gave him a hug, and drove home. Next Friday, my wife and I will drive up to drop off his clothes, lamps, etc. when he returns from his hike. Thanksgiving and winter break are a quick train ride for him. I don't want to be overly discouraging, and being recruited is a big deal, but consider it. There are so many wonderful schools in CA and the West coast; just sayin'.
It's not unusual for a kid to not know his major heading in. A larger school (his preference) should have more options for him, whatever he chooses.
One of my other kids got a lot of benefit from an organizational consultant (or something like that). The kid was always a page short and a day late for assignments, and a few hours of help getting organized made a world of difference. She wouldn't edit/critique an essay, but helped manage the schedule.
In addition to the "packaged goods" risk of an expensive consultant, some teachers writing recommendations might resent having an outsider involved, and the GC most likely will feel slighted. Since the official school GC is the link between your son and the admissions committee (even if he's a recruited athlete, in which case a coach might also be involved), you should be very careful of the GC's feelings. The GC recommendation can count for a lot, and it's the GC who certifies the rigor of your son's course selection.
Some of my favorite schools are part of NESCAC, but the transportation issues should not be ignored if you live in CA. I dropped my son off for a freshman orientation trip today, gave him a hug, and drove home. Next Friday, my wife and I will drive up to drop off his clothes, lamps, etc. when he returns from his hike. Thanksgiving and winter break are a quick train ride for him. I don't want to be overly discouraging, and being recruited is a big deal, but consider it. There are so many wonderful schools in CA and the West coast; just sayin'.
It's not unusual for a kid to not know his major heading in. A larger school (his preference) should have more options for him, whatever he chooses.
One of my other kids got a lot of benefit from an organizational consultant (or something like that). The kid was always a page short and a day late for assignments, and a few hours of help getting organized made a world of difference. She wouldn't edit/critique an essay, but helped manage the schedule.
In addition to the "packaged goods" risk of an expensive consultant, some teachers writing recommendations might resent having an outsider involved, and the GC most likely will feel slighted. Since the official school GC is the link between your son and the admissions committee (even if he's a recruited athlete, in which case a coach might also be involved), you should be very careful of the GC's feelings. The GC recommendation can count for a lot, and it's the GC who certifies the rigor of your son's course selection.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
Same here cheesepep.... and in the days before the Internet was popular. I can recall spending time at the libraries (both the high school and city libraries) looking through college rating guides, combing through the brochures and flyers I got in the mail, and organizing all the college information into a notebook (binder probably would have been a better choice, but notebooks were cheaper). That got me down to a short list. I then did the same process to find scholarship programs.cheesepep wrote:This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. I spoke to no counselors and just read 1-2 magazines. I wrote the college entrance essays all by myself with no one checking them and I ended up in a decent UC school.
This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
Part of my research was also into the applications and admissions process at the universities on my short list, e.g. what did they want from an applicant in terms of SAT/ACT test scores, AP tests, extracurricular activities, essays, and so on. This led to me applying to a financial aid program at my high school to take additional AP tests, since my family could not afford to pay for more than 1. I was able to take three AP tests that way, plus I took both the ACT and SAT tests (along with taking the pre-SAT earlier in high school).
Like cheesepep, I wrote my own essays, emphasizing the portions of my background that the research said would have the most impact. I can't recall if I had anyone look them over, but if I did, it would have been a free service at the high school or local library. It was hard enough coming up with the application fees, much less paying someone to review my essays. I also got into a good UC, but didn't get a good financial package there. I went to a CSU that gave a full-ride scholarship instead. I was the one that decided to choose the full-ride scholarship over taking on loans to go to a UC, not my parents.
I suspect doing all of the research and applications myself made me a more involved student (and independent person, given the decisions my parents let me make in the process) when I did get to college. I had more "skin in the game" given all of the work I'd done in high school to get into college. To the OP, there is something to be said for having your son do most of the legwork himself (e.g. research, essay writing, etc.), and use the professionals simply to "polish" his work.
Re: College Counselors
It is a sad world we live in.cheesepep wrote:This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. I spoke to no counselors and just read 1-2 magazines. I wrote the college entrance essays all by myself with no one checking them and I ended up in a decent UC school.
This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
Instead of telling our kids we walked to school uphill both ways, we can just say we actually wrote our college entrance essays. Think of the shocked looks on their faces when we say this.
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Re: College Counselors
It's been 12 years since ours did this. Big HS, public. NMS. Full payout. His freshman year cost $34k. He did the work himself, no visits, very little help from counselors. DS was not accepted in any of the engineering HPCCMS Schools. He was accepted to then New Ivy's which today would today match any top school.,
TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
GL.
TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
GL.
Last edited by LongerPrimer on Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College Counselors
It's been 12 years since ours did this. Big HS, public. NMS. Full payor. His freshman year cost $34k. He did the work himself, no visits, very little help from counselors. DS was not accepted in any of the engineering HPCCMS Schools. He was accepted to then New Ivy's which today would today match any top school.,
TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
GL
TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
GL
Re: College Counselors
Been looking into this some myself, for our kids - 9/8/4th grade - kinda planning ahead and maybe I'm a bit of a tiger parent...
First thing I would suggest is to do some reading. Books are cheap (or perhaps free from the library) and even if you just skim some, it'll be helpful (and cheaper than paying 5 figures for a consultant!)
While Michele Hernandez' consulting fees may be high, her book is cheap, and a good resource IMO. I've read/skimmed several such books. Not all authors agree on all the details (much like with financial advisors), but the broad strokes tend to be similar.
From what I understand, if your kid is a recruited athlete, that puts things in a whole 'nuther ballpark. I haven't paid as much attention to this side of things, as it's not likely to be an issue for our kids (not super athletic).
You probably know that the acceptance rates at Ivies and similar quality schools have gotten MUCH worse in recent years. Hernandez has some stats on her site: http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/. There's also a blog there with interesting stuff...
Some notes from Hernandez - take them for what they're worth:
Ivy League emphasizes Academic Index for athletes (and to varying extent for non-athletes). It's a formula that's roughly
1/3 SAT Reasoning (the old SAT I - ACT is acceptable and scores are converted)
1/3 SAT Subject (the old SAT IIs)
1/3 Class Rank (Details on how this is handled and how they handle schools that don't report class rank are in her book).
She claims that she and her co-workers don't really reach out directly to the college admissions folks on behalf of clients - that would look bad and such contact should be handled by the high school counselor (problematic at HS's with high student to counselor ratios of course). Sounds like it's more planning the academic trajectory, lining kids up with test prep, probably some heavy essay coaching/editing (I don't remember exact details there), and probably some other stuff (the book I read wasn't really plugging her services that hard, so I'm not sure).
First thing I would suggest is to do some reading. Books are cheap (or perhaps free from the library) and even if you just skim some, it'll be helpful (and cheaper than paying 5 figures for a consultant!)
While Michele Hernandez' consulting fees may be high, her book is cheap, and a good resource IMO. I've read/skimmed several such books. Not all authors agree on all the details (much like with financial advisors), but the broad strokes tend to be similar.
From what I understand, if your kid is a recruited athlete, that puts things in a whole 'nuther ballpark. I haven't paid as much attention to this side of things, as it's not likely to be an issue for our kids (not super athletic).
You probably know that the acceptance rates at Ivies and similar quality schools have gotten MUCH worse in recent years. Hernandez has some stats on her site: http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/. There's also a blog there with interesting stuff...
Some notes from Hernandez - take them for what they're worth:
Ivy League emphasizes Academic Index for athletes (and to varying extent for non-athletes). It's a formula that's roughly
1/3 SAT Reasoning (the old SAT I - ACT is acceptable and scores are converted)
1/3 SAT Subject (the old SAT IIs)
1/3 Class Rank (Details on how this is handled and how they handle schools that don't report class rank are in her book).
She claims that she and her co-workers don't really reach out directly to the college admissions folks on behalf of clients - that would look bad and such contact should be handled by the high school counselor (problematic at HS's with high student to counselor ratios of course). Sounds like it's more planning the academic trajectory, lining kids up with test prep, probably some heavy essay coaching/editing (I don't remember exact details there), and probably some other stuff (the book I read wasn't really plugging her services that hard, so I'm not sure).
Re: College Counselors
I realize that you asked a specific question about college counselors, and I kinda did a data dump about college admissions.
Maybe what I shoulda said was:
Admissions (and financial aid) to elite colleges is a tricky topic - lots of tricky corners, special situations and the like.
If you can find a good private counselor at a price you're happy with, more power to you. But if not, grab a book or three and spend a couple evenings skimming through them.
One more data dump item: Early decisions/Early Action deadlines come early, and admissions rates at elite colleges for those who use these programs tend to be MUCH higher than for regular decision.
Maybe what I shoulda said was:
Admissions (and financial aid) to elite colleges is a tricky topic - lots of tricky corners, special situations and the like.
If you can find a good private counselor at a price you're happy with, more power to you. But if not, grab a book or three and spend a couple evenings skimming through them.
One more data dump item: Early decisions/Early Action deadlines come early, and admissions rates at elite colleges for those who use these programs tend to be MUCH higher than for regular decision.
Re: College Counselors
I wonder if your son really needs another counselor. With his grades and schedule, it sounds like he has to be pretty organized already. In addition, with his grades, he already knows those at his HS who are also "aiming high". What does HE THINK about the counselor idea?
How about suggesting he update his Daily Planner with college-to-do-lists. Or have him create a separate College Planner just for college.
I started a wall-sized timeline for one of our kids to fill in showing college deadlines until Feb. or March. (Include deadlines for the recommendations and give the writer 2-3 weeks leeway to write them.) He could make the notes for each college a different color. We taped the long roll of paper to his bedroom so he would see it every day. It helped.
How about suggesting he update his Daily Planner with college-to-do-lists. Or have him create a separate College Planner just for college.
I started a wall-sized timeline for one of our kids to fill in showing college deadlines until Feb. or March. (Include deadlines for the recommendations and give the writer 2-3 weeks leeway to write them.) He could make the notes for each college a different color. We taped the long roll of paper to his bedroom so he would see it every day. It helped.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
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Re: College Counselors
Focus on the UCs, especially since he wants a larger school. They're highly rated and a great deal for students who qualify for in-state tuition.
Take a couple of road trips and see the campuses in person. If his SAT is just okay, focus on all but UCB, UCLA and UCSD. Davis, Irvine and Santa Barbara have a lot to commend them, and lots of kids love Riverside, Santa Cruz and Merced.
With no financial aid, four yrs. tuition at a UC will be around $65,000, compared with $200,000 at privates. No harm applying to the privates, but an okay SAT is going to be a problem at schools that accept less than 10% of applicants.
Take a couple of road trips and see the campuses in person. If his SAT is just okay, focus on all but UCB, UCLA and UCSD. Davis, Irvine and Santa Barbara have a lot to commend them, and lots of kids love Riverside, Santa Cruz and Merced.
With no financial aid, four yrs. tuition at a UC will be around $65,000, compared with $200,000 at privates. No harm applying to the privates, but an okay SAT is going to be a problem at schools that accept less than 10% of applicants.
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Re: College Counselors
Got a real kick out of this. Exactly what daily planner would that be? Despite the grades and time management issues that being a student athlete imposes, he is more of a procrastinator than planner.celia wrote:How about suggesting he update his Daily Planner with college-to-do-lists. Or have him create a separate College Planner just for college.
Have read a number of books and boards on the process, especially the athletic side, but still am interested in the external counselor option for a number of reasons. He is a Band 4 at the Ivies and Band A at the NESCACs. Don't want to put all the eggs into the athletic basket for a multitude of reasons, but look at it as just another angle.
Looking for insight and experiences in the external counselor option.
Re: College Counselors
I will have two kids in college next week. My kids are quite different personalities. They went to different highly ranked public high schools that had good guidance counselors. Nevertheless, when it came to college it was more what their peers were doing than what the GCs were doing.rrppve wrote:..., he is more of a procrastinator than planner.
My youngest was more a procrastinator than a planner. We encouraged him to apply to his safety school (state university) first and he got in. So he basically stopped the college app process and knew where he was going to go. Some of his friends were going there, too, which also makes him happy. My oldest went to a private elite university up in the northeast and graduated with an BS in engineering. But she was also more motivated than her younger sibling. Although she worked as an engineer, she is going back to school to get a Masters.
Thus there is a little experiment going on in our family: inexpensive state school versus private elite university. I am not worried about the outcomes at all.
The above is a round about way of writing, "Why bother to help your son with college apps at all? He will do just fine."
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Re: College Counselors
I think my son appreciated having an adult to discuss colleges, possible careers, etc. with. The actual application, as such, was his to do. You can get a consultant to help narrow the choices, but I'm not sure that's value.livesoft wrote:The above is a round about way of writing, "Why bother to help your son with college apps at all? He will do just fine."
I have been reassured this year that the majority of kids wind up going to the right school for them.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
I suspect that for most people here on Bogleheads, the comparison that I put in boldface runs in the opposite direction to what you intended.LongerPrimer wrote:TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
Meet my pet, Peeve, who loves to convert non-acronyms into acronyms: FED, ROTH, CASH, IVY, ...
Re: College Counselors
From the blog:psteinx wrote:You probably know that the acceptance rates at Ivies and similar quality schools have gotten MUCH worse in recent years. Hernandez has some stats on her site: http://www.hernandezcollegeconsulting.com/. There's also a blog there with interesting stuff...
I expect that ratio is (total number of acceptances) / (total number of applications), not accounting for multiple applications from the same student, or multiple acceptances. I wonder what fraction of those students were accepted at least one of those schools?Across all Ivy League universities plus MIT and Stanford last year 305,101 students applied and 26,758 were accepted (8.77% overall acceptance rate). This year? 313,981 students applied and 26,154 were accepted. So what’s that percentage tell us? It’s not easier to get in. 8.33% overall acceptance rate.
Meet my pet, Peeve, who loves to convert non-acronyms into acronyms: FED, ROTH, CASH, IVY, ...
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Re: College Counselors
For what it is worth, I knew and worked with Michelle Hernandez back when she was an assistant admissions director. I did volunteer recruiting for the college. She was very competent and was very interested in doing her best to evaluate every student as an individual worthy of consideration. I don't know anything about her consulting services but character usually carries through.
The market goes up, the market goes down.
Re: College Counselors
Surprising on BH like comments, do it yourself vs paying an advisor ? Sound familiar ?
My son is now heading off to college, we went through this process over the last year.
I did not hire a counselor, and in our district the ratio is low enough you can access time of the GCs.
That said, there is only so much they can do for you.
You will get a better end result at possibly lower cost if you do the research yourself (parent/child together).
You want your kid to write HIS essay, and pick HIS school, to be vested in the process and
find what's right for him. Not easy, but the only way I would hire a counselor, would be maybe
if parents are in no position at all to help evaluate options and make some suggestions.
In any case, neither parent nor counselor should be writing essays or selecting schools for the kid.
There are tons of websites to help search for schools with attributes you seek.
I saw mention of college confidential, I found that site really helpful.
collegeprowler and unigo were helpful. There are sites for discussion on specific sports since athletics are important.
There are tons of sites/books that give advice on essay writing.
Also note, there is a bubble brewing in the college advising business.
Note the number of comments about people quitting other jobs to become college advisers.
I recall people quitting other jobs to become mortgage brokers years ago, and in the late 80s, to become
stock brokers (when you could charge $100/trade commission). I know a lawyer who retired from law to become
a college adviser. Most of those mentioned were guidance counselors, I wouldn't have paid for the advice
from my son's GC (but they are necessary to do admin work for you so keep good relations). When there is a bubble,
unqualified people are entering the profession, to make a quick buck. Be weary.
My 2 cents. People think this is so important a decision, they want an adviser. I say whether investing or college,
yes this is important, so figure it out from researching multiple sources, better outcome and costing you more time than money.
My son is now heading off to college, we went through this process over the last year.
I did not hire a counselor, and in our district the ratio is low enough you can access time of the GCs.
That said, there is only so much they can do for you.
You will get a better end result at possibly lower cost if you do the research yourself (parent/child together).
You want your kid to write HIS essay, and pick HIS school, to be vested in the process and
find what's right for him. Not easy, but the only way I would hire a counselor, would be maybe
if parents are in no position at all to help evaluate options and make some suggestions.
In any case, neither parent nor counselor should be writing essays or selecting schools for the kid.
There are tons of websites to help search for schools with attributes you seek.
I saw mention of college confidential, I found that site really helpful.
collegeprowler and unigo were helpful. There are sites for discussion on specific sports since athletics are important.
There are tons of sites/books that give advice on essay writing.
Also note, there is a bubble brewing in the college advising business.
Note the number of comments about people quitting other jobs to become college advisers.
I recall people quitting other jobs to become mortgage brokers years ago, and in the late 80s, to become
stock brokers (when you could charge $100/trade commission). I know a lawyer who retired from law to become
a college adviser. Most of those mentioned were guidance counselors, I wouldn't have paid for the advice
from my son's GC (but they are necessary to do admin work for you so keep good relations). When there is a bubble,
unqualified people are entering the profession, to make a quick buck. Be weary.
My 2 cents. People think this is so important a decision, they want an adviser. I say whether investing or college,
yes this is important, so figure it out from researching multiple sources, better outcome and costing you more time than money.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
I didn't "select" the school(s) my son applied to, but I was with him most of the steps on the way to making choices. My son, for example, had been strongly on an MIT/CalTech/CMU direction, then spent some time at Yale, and we had great discussions when he found himself leaning toward Yale. In the end, HE decided, but I believe that it was useful to him to have me help him keep in mind the pros and cons of the choices (narrow/broad, pointy/rounded, social situation, etc.). In the end, he probably would have made exactly the same choice without my involvement, but I also got to reassure him that whatever happened, he was quite likely to have a wonderful college experience and a productive life.blevine wrote:In any case, neither parent nor counselor should be writing essays or selecting schools for the kid.
Currently, there's a thread about teaching kids to drive. There, as I believe here, time spent with the kid discussing the process is priceless.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College Counselors
Either interpretation works. The stakes can be very high.22twain wrote:I suspect that for most people here on Bogleheads, the comparison that I put in boldface runs in the opposite direction to what you intended.LongerPrimer wrote:TODAY, IMO, the competition is higher, the selection process tougher, and the outcomes more lucrative no matter where and what the student does. The selection and application process is like hiring a Financial Advisor vs DIY. Then, you could do it by yourself. Today, I am not so sure.
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Re: College Counselors
Money is always fair. How you use money is the differentiation.cheesepep wrote:This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. I spoke to no counselors and just read 1-2 magazines. I wrote the college entrance essays all by myself with no one checking them and I ended up in a decent UC school.
This is where money comes into play; if you have it, you can hire a professional college counselor/advisor and have a greater chance of getting into a better school. Kind of unfair I say.
GL
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
In the same sense that I like William Bernstein's books but don't have him manage my assets, I have read and learned from Ms. Hernandez's books, but would not use her consulting services. Never say never, though; my last to apply to college is likely to be a handful, so you never know.Sagenick48 wrote:For what it is worth, I knew and worked with Michelle Hernandez back when she was an assistant admissions director. I did volunteer recruiting for the college. She was very competent and was very interested in doing her best to evaluate every student as an individual worthy of consideration. I don't know anything about her consulting services but character usually carries through.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
After my junior year of high school, I took Physics and Calculus at a university in the summer. I liked it there, and when the summer was drawing to a close, I went to the Admissions Office, told them that my parents would be okay with me attending, and asked if I could be accepted for the Fall term. They agreed. Other than NJ sending a truant officer to my parents' house a few times, no problems.cheesepep wrote:This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. [snip...]
Times change, though. Today I would probably not have made it past the metal detectors at admissions.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
Today you'd have to apply to one of the concurrent college/high school classes program, but you'd still be allowed to attend at least one college course your senior high school year (assuming you were accepted to the program). Not all universities/colleges support such concurrent programs however. And no truancy officers would be involved, since universities/colleges which do support the programs tend to run the courses either before or after high school courses.TomatoTomahto wrote:After my junior year of high school, I took Physics and Calculus at a university in the summer. I liked it there, and when the summer was drawing to a close, I went to the Admissions Office, told them that my parents would be okay with me attending, and asked if I could be accepted for the Fall term. They agreed. Other than NJ sending a truant officer to my parents' house a few times, no problems.cheesepep wrote:This is kind of unusual for me. When I was in high school and looking to apply for college, I did all of the grunt work and research myself. [snip...]
Times change, though. Today I would probably not have made it past the metal detectors at admissions.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
The university was in Washngton, DC and the HS in NJ, so a concurrent program wasn't going to work. One additional wrinkle: it crossed my mind more than once that if I dropped out of college, I'd technically be a HS dropoutMudpuppy wrote: Today you'd have to apply to one of the concurrent college/high school classes program, but you'd still be allowed to attend at least one college course your senior high school year (assuming you were accepted to the program). Not all universities/colleges support such concurrent programs however. And no truancy officers would be involved, since universities/colleges which do support the programs tend to run the courses either before or after high school courses.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College Counselors
You probably can get along with a counselor. Most of the relevant information can be figured out on your own, by reading selected books, and by looking at websites like College Confidential.
The athletic part of it is a little different. You might find this link interesting. Its a long article written over a period of time by a father from California who had a kid go to Columbia to play football. It has a lot of useful insights, IMO.
http://www.johntreed.com/matsdad.html
Mostly the writing is just common sense. I suggest you buy this book immediate and have your son read it. You can too.
http://www.amazon.com/Writing-College-A ... merReviews
You need high scores and great grades to be admitted to most of those schools. The athlete angle complicates it a bit because no coach is going to "support" your application unless you commit to apply early and go if you are admitted. This is true for the Ivy's and NESCAC.
The athletic part of it is a little different. You might find this link interesting. Its a long article written over a period of time by a father from California who had a kid go to Columbia to play football. It has a lot of useful insights, IMO.
http://www.johntreed.com/matsdad.html
Mostly the writing is just common sense. I suggest you buy this book immediate and have your son read it. You can too.
http://www.amazon.com/Writing-College-A ... merReviews
You need high scores and great grades to be admitted to most of those schools. The athlete angle complicates it a bit because no coach is going to "support" your application unless you commit to apply early and go if you are admitted. This is true for the Ivy's and NESCAC.
- TomatoTomahto
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- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm
Re: College Counselors
Additionally,
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ath ... ce-p1.html
Even though you said your son wasn't being recruited by Ivy and I don't know if football is the sport, it might be informative
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/ath ... ce-p1.html
Even though you said your son wasn't being recruited by Ivy and I don't know if football is the sport, it might be informative
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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- Location: San Diego
Re: College Counselors
One of my best friends hired a counselor for both her kids, with great outcomes... One went to Duke the other to Yale. I am more of a do it yourselfer and feel that he will get into whatever school he deserves on his own merit.
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Re: College Counselors
That being said, I help with research. I think it is hard enough taking very rigorous courses, getting fantastic test scores and doing the extracurricular activities. I don't think it is too pampering to do college research and help them with that part.
364
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Re: College Counselors
Colleges these days are crazy.
Just take some classes at a decent local community college or university, and transfer after the second year to save some money.
Much better to be an engineering major out of a local college than an English Lit major at Harvard.
Just take some classes at a decent local community college or university, and transfer after the second year to save some money.
Much better to be an engineering major out of a local college than an English Lit major at Harvard.
Re: College Counselors
There is a book you might find helpful: The Gatekeepers: Inside the Admissions Process of a Premier College by Jacques Steinberg. The so called premier college is actually Wesleyan University in CT. If your child wants to apply to Wesleyan, be careful. Some of the departments have unstated policies that are greatly detrimental to students. Of course, this is true of many schools. Gatekeepers will give you lots of leads in how to find out about colleges.
Look out for schools that have many unstated fees, in addition to tuition. Your bills may be greatly in excess of what you are led to expect that you will pay. The best way to find about this is to ask current students. This is not as hard to do as you may think. When you visit the school, get in touch with some majors in the subjects that your child may be interested in. Don't just talk with students that the school recommends that you talk to: they are paid and don't want to lose their jobs. Also, find some seniors in the relevant majors and ask what they know about the recent graduates in that major. They can probably get you in touch with some.
You can gain a lot of information about the colleges you visit in this way. Just offer students a free lunch, and they will jump at the chance to tell you all you want to know. Students are always hungry.
Look out for schools that have many unstated fees, in addition to tuition. Your bills may be greatly in excess of what you are led to expect that you will pay. The best way to find about this is to ask current students. This is not as hard to do as you may think. When you visit the school, get in touch with some majors in the subjects that your child may be interested in. Don't just talk with students that the school recommends that you talk to: they are paid and don't want to lose their jobs. Also, find some seniors in the relevant majors and ask what they know about the recent graduates in that major. They can probably get you in touch with some.
You can gain a lot of information about the colleges you visit in this way. Just offer students a free lunch, and they will jump at the chance to tell you all you want to know. Students are always hungry.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
Fwiw, The Gatekeeper was about the application process 15 years ago. Some things might have changed.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
True! And since it was done with the full cooperation of Wesleyan U., one can expect that a lot of the Wesleyan U. people lied. But it's worth taking a glance through for free at your local library. Then, as now, so-called liberal arts colleges are big business and have e.g. their own focus groups etc. I wouldn't take the word of anything said by the admissions staff, professors or college websites, any more than I would believe used car adverts. If you are told of a certain university policy that is important to you, get it in writing or record it (if the state allows undisclosed recording of conversations you participate in). Do your own research before you hire anyone and do the obvious things, ask friends what the experience of their kids has been, talk to kids at the colleges when you visit, esp. kids who are not paid to recruit, etc. The bottom line is that colleges are businesses that compete with others to get your money, these days it is harder to recruit students and colleges have few scruples. As Lily Tomlin says: I try to be cynical, but some days I just can't keep up. It pays to be cynical about American schools. In my experience, British Universities are much better in general because they have policies that protect students from gross exploration.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Counselors
Ktemene, I didn't mention the age of the book to discount it; I've read it and it was interesting.
I don't have as cynical an attitude about Wesleyan (and schools of that sort: middle to elite LACs). Having had one relative head a department there, and another relative (with no blood or timing association with the first one) graduate from Wesleyan, I'm biased.
Saying that medicine is a business is true. Saying that one should carefully consider a doctor's statements is also reasonable. However, I think saying "I wouldn't take the word if anything said by" a doctor "any more than I would believe used-car adverts" is a bit harsh towards doctors, and I think it's harsh towards colleges also.
If it is so adversarial that I have to record my conversations with a college, maybe it's not a love connection. If some particular policy is important, I think a polite email asking to verify that your understandings match is reasonable.
I don't have as cynical an attitude about Wesleyan (and schools of that sort: middle to elite LACs). Having had one relative head a department there, and another relative (with no blood or timing association with the first one) graduate from Wesleyan, I'm biased.
Saying that medicine is a business is true. Saying that one should carefully consider a doctor's statements is also reasonable. However, I think saying "I wouldn't take the word if anything said by" a doctor "any more than I would believe used-car adverts" is a bit harsh towards doctors, and I think it's harsh towards colleges also.
If it is so adversarial that I have to record my conversations with a college, maybe it's not a love connection. If some particular policy is important, I think a polite email asking to verify that your understandings match is reasonable.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: College Counselors
I dare say most things have change with the advent of enrollment management & data driven financial aid awards. This Forbes expose on the topic is fabulously interesting:Ktemene wrote:There is a book you might find helpful: The Gatekeepers: Inside the Admissions Process of a Premier College by Jacques Steinberg. The so called premier college is actually Wesleyan University in CT. If your child wants to apply to Wesleyan, be careful. Some of the departments have unstated policies that are greatly detrimental to students. Of course, this is true of many schools. Gatekeepers will give you lots of leads in how to find out about colleges.
Look out for schools that have many unstated fees, in addition to tuition. Your bills may be greatly in excess of what you are led to expect that you will pay. The best way to find about this is to ask current students. This is not as hard to do as you may think. When you visit the school, get in touch with some majors in the subjects that your child may be interested in. Don't just talk with students that the school recommends that you talk to: they are paid and don't want to lose their jobs. Also, find some seniors in the relevant majors and ask what they know about the recent graduates in that major. They can probably get you in touch with some.
You can gain a lot of information about the colleges you visit in this way. Just offer students a free lunch, and they will jump at the chance to tell you all you want to know. Students are always hungry.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgra ... dmissions/
To the OP, I can understand the urge to want your kid to have the best education possible. However, as a professional in the higher ed field, it's my opinion that our students learn as much outside of the college classroom as inside of it, provided their parents let them. For example, I once had a 20 minute conversation with a parent about all of her questions about our study abroad programs, which culminated in her insisting her daughter wasn't ready to study abroad for a semester; her daughter just wasn't mature enough. I had to point out to her as professionally and kindly as possible that while I understand every child is different, she's not helping her daughter's (perceived) immaturity by doing all of the work for her. Be careful of this balance & allow your son to learn and grow as a person in addition to academically. He may be better off if he ends up at a slightly worse school but you let him do it himself than if he's at the so-called best of the best with you holding his hand every step of the way. Again, just my two cents & I certainly hope I have not offended you.