Which 4 door with 250+ hp

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mhalley
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by mhalley »

I love my tl. The new tlx is getting some good reviews, sio you should def do a test drive. Quote:

The new TLX is so good, you’d be crazy not to cross-shop no matter which compact sports sedan you’re initially considering. The main competitors will be the Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Cadillac CTS, Infiniti J50 (the former G37), Lexus IS, and the just-revamped Mercedes-Benz C-Class.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1872 ... e-3-series
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Epsilon Delta »

semperlux wrote:In terms of testing the 0-60, like someone else above said, unless you rev it at high rpm, those numbers are hard to reproduce. Best metric would be to test drive the car & see how it's acceleration makes you feel. Sometimes the 0-60 looks fast, but the car shakes, chokes, or is very loud to achieve those times, so a slower quieter car thats smoother may be more desirable.
How easy 0-60 times are to replicate depends on the car. It's easy to achieve close to the minimum in a Prius, and not a bit exciting -- in either a positive or negative sense. It's quite hard in a manual Renault Le Car, and quite exciting, bordering on terrifying, despite being quite a bit slower than a Prius.

If you look at actual traffic you'll find that most people don't actually use more performance than is available in a Prius. So the maximum performance figures are irrelevant for everyday driving. People are really judging the "acceleration" based on sound, vibration and other things that don't show up in the numbers. Some people like noise, some people prefer quiet, some people want it to take skill, and some people like terrifying. Best bet is to test drive a few different of cars, find one you like and ask about cars that are similar to that one and repeat.
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mmmodem
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by mmmodem »

If I was young, I wanted to own the most reliable horsepower for the money. That would be a Honda Accord V6. If I wanted something more fuel efficient, it would be a Mazda 3. They get up to 40 mpg highway. Read any car review and you know it's not just about horsepower, handling matters as well and the Mazda 3 is recommended as the driver's car.

Now that I am older, I know that the fastest car in a commute is the Prius Plug-in or other eligible HOV access vehicle. I have a longer 103 mile round trip commute. The Prius is cheap to maintain as it has one of the best reliability ratings of any vehicle despite all the fear about battery replacement. I average 75 mpg including the electricity I use to charge it so it's cheap to fuel up. I initially bought the car to get home faster but along with lower cost insurance, I've found it cost less to own than a Mazda 3 despite being thousands of $'s more expensive to purchase.
Keep It Simple
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Keep It Simple »

First Choice: Honda Accord

Second Choice: Subaru Legacy

Both have bulletproof reliability.

K.I.S.
coldaudio
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by coldaudio »

I'm in a very similar situation to you... 28 years old, no wife or kids, similar assets and salary.

I took delivery of my 2015 WRX (6 speed) in April and love it :) It's a great looking car that people stop to ask about almost every time I'm out.

I don't think a lot of people on here realize that the 2015 is a redesign... direct-injected 2.0 with a twin-scroll turbo (boost by 2500 RPM), completely redesigned interior, etc.

Is it perfect? No car is. But I got it for $1,000 below invoice - $24,900 for a base model with fog lights. There's no car that comes anywhere close to performance for the price. I'm not a huge fan of the dealership I bought it from, but their pricing is extremely aggressive and they make their money on volume - my sales guy alone sells 30-40 cars per month.

Highway I'm averaging 28-30 mpg, probably would be a bit better somewhere flatter at lower altitude.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
arkerr123
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by arkerr123 »

pennypincher wrote:
Back to which car... I've been reading about torque and power to weight ratio trying to understand it better. The WRX I drove was about 0-60mph in 6 seconds, 265hp, ~270 ft-lb torque, and a power to weight ratio of ~12. So I guess I will start there to compare. On one site I found some forum members thought referred to a power to weight ratio of 10:1 (I guess it should be called weight to power ratio) as the golden ratio. The WRX was 12:1 though and I enjoyed it.

There was a good point made about manual transmissions would not hold value as well. This makes sense so I think I will be able to settle on doing without.
HP is a measure of the amount of energy the car 'can' output.
Torque is a measure of the twisting force the car can apply to the ground.

Americans think they want HP, but they really want torque. You should test drive a car that reaches its torque specified at a lower RPM. You wont have to rev the engine as high/hard to get the performance you want.
All of the VW/Audi 2.0T engines are like that.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

JoeJohnson wrote:1) Can I change my commute?
Yes it will be changing in 5 months to something like 20 miles round trip.
JoeJohnson wrote:3) Why are I set on buying another car 5 years from now?
I'm not. I just don't plan on getting a car now and driving it for 10-15 years until the years fall off. This next car purchase won't be my dream car but I do want it to be fun. I want it to be a "driver's car."
JoeJohnson wrote:6) Why is my budget for a vehicle $200/month when I make $75k/year with $25k in the bank and $75k invested? Is there another area of my life I'm spending too much money on?
Is $200/month too low? I really didn't know how much I should be allocating towards car expenses per month with my financial situation. I am pretty frugal in most other areas of my life.


With my budget of 15-20k it looks like I will have to be looking at cars that are a few years back, maybe 4+. How old and what mileage would you set as a cutoff? Or do you have to take too much into account to set cutoffs like that?

I am also realizing that the car I choose just might not be available in my area within the time frame I need so I may have to be open to several different cars. Where are the best places to look? Craigslist, ebay, cars.com, which other websites?
Carlton
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Carlton »

Check out the Ford Focus ST. Fast little hot hatch with outstanding handling, but 5-door versatility. You can get the base with current discounts and good negotiation for the very low $20's. The base model avoids the "My Ford Touch" which has had some issues.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus-st/20 ... ap-up.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hat ... rst_drive/
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Taylor Larimore
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"True Cost to Own"

Post by Taylor Larimore »

pennypincher wrote:As I'm trying to decide on a budget, and whether to pay cash I think I should take depreciation into account. Is depreciation predictable in most of these cars? If I want to keep the car about 5 years I can afford a total depreciation of $10,000 to $12,000 or about $2,000 to $2,500 per year during this time which would make my cost about $150 to $200 per month.

Is this reasonable?

What would an average depreciation rate be? Is there an easy way to figure this out?
pennypincher:

You may find this link helpful:

Edmonds: True Cost to Own

Best wishes.
Taylor
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mike143
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by mike143 »

Carlton wrote:Check out the Ford Focus ST. Fast little hot hatch with outstanding handling, but 5-door versatility. You can get the base with current discounts and good negotiation for the very low $20's. The base model avoids the "My Ford Touch" which has had some issues.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus-st/20 ... ap-up.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hat ... rst_drive/
The Ford PowerShift transmission is horrible: http://www.wtae.com/investigations/inve ... s/24333878

I had one as a rental and it was the worse automatic I ever have experienced.
Nothing is free, someone pays...You can't spend your way to financial freedom.
arf30
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by arf30 »

I've got an '11 WRX 5 door with an aftermarket engine tune that will give you a bit over 300 horsepower (common with these cars), paid about 23.5k new. Highway passing is a breeze and handling is excellent. The AWD is also great in the winter and the car has a ton of interior space. However the ride is harsh, road noise is high, and gas mileage is not great (25 MPG indicated). Most older people will hate riding in it.
Carlton
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Carlton »

mike143 wrote:
Carlton wrote:Check out the Ford Focus ST. Fast little hot hatch with outstanding handling, but 5-door versatility. You can get the base with current discounts and good negotiation for the very low $20's. The base model avoids the "My Ford Touch" which has had some issues.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus-st/20 ... ap-up.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hat ... rst_drive/
The Ford PowerShift transmission is horrible: http://www.wtae.com/investigations/inve ... s/24333878

I had one as a rental and it was the worse automatic I ever have experienced.
The Focus ST is only available with a 6-speed manual (as it should be in a performance-oriented drivers car).
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semperlux
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by semperlux »

Hey pennypincher, so have you test driven any of these cars yet? What do you think?
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

semperlux wrote:Hey pennypincher, so have you test driven any of these cars yet? What do you think?
Got my day off tomorrow so I hope to do alot of testing. I'll try to keep this thread updated. I appreciate all the advice!
Imbros
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Imbros »

pennypincher wrote:
semperlux wrote:Hey pennypincher, so have you test driven any of these cars yet? What do you think?
Got my day off tomorrow so I hope to do alot of testing. I'll try to keep this thread updated. I appreciate all the advice!

What you want is Turbo. A car without Turbo will not likely satisfy your "acceleration" desire. (Mazda6, Accord, Acura TL are all good cars but they lack the high torque in low rpm = best acceleration). I recommend a CPO Volvo S60. You can pick one in decent condition for $20k to $25k. They are more refined than any Asian car and not as needy as German ones.
There is no greatness where there is no simplicity, goodness and truth. -L. Tolstoy
pacodelostigres
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pacodelostigres »

Second that the transmission in the Focus is terrible. Avoid it at all costs.

If you want fun torque, you might consider something a little more along the lines of a Charger.
surfstar
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by surfstar »

In addition to the initial cost and depreciation, have you calculated fuel costs? 90mi/day adds up to a LOT of miles over 5-7 or more years for ownership and will be very significant factor when it comes to TCO (total cost of ownership).

I think you should be looking at a vehicle that is reliable and economical, while still being fun to drive. Straight line acceleration isn't everything. This would lead me/you to a Mazda6 or Mazda3. Can be had with a manual, and be fun to drive while still being economical to own.

For S & Gs, maybe test drive a 2010+ Prius. They would be far cheaper to operate longterm, as not only would you average around 50mpg, the are dead reliable with fewer maintenance issues and therefore costs. I am steering my sister toward a used one for her 100mi/day commuting. They may not be "spirited" to drive, but many people find trying to maximize the mpg, a "fun" way of driving.


*edit - also if you are/were interested in ER (early retirement), you should be saving more and looking into buying a cheap, high mpg, used car. New cars every few years will force you to work for more years to pay for that type of lifestyle (if this matters to you).
Carlton
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Carlton »

pacodelostigres wrote:Second that the transmission in the Focus is terrible. Avoid it at all costs.

If you want fun torque, you might consider something a little more along the lines of a Charger.
Once again, the FOCUS ST is available with a 6-Speed Manual as the only transmission, not the trouble-prone dual-clutch automatic. The manual transmission is fine. That's why I reccomended that the OP check out the Focus ST.
BostonPickEm
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by BostonPickEm »

You may also take a look at the new 2015 Audi A3, which recently debuted in the US in a sedan style. As with most of the German luxury brands, the base models (1.8L turbo at $29,900 / 2.0L T at $31,900) comes standard with a host of features. As someone mentioned above, the turbo in these engines likely will satisfy acceleration desire. They are not making manual transmissions for the US models.

The A3 will get you far better gas mileage than the WRX or G37/G37x, but less than some of the other cars mentioned (Mazda 3, Accord v4, etc.). You could get a very nice A3 in the very low $30k's with good negotiating.

Good luck.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

So far I've driven a BMW 328xi, Audi A4, Infiniti G37, Acura TL AWD, Lexus IS 250, Subaru Impreza, and Subaru WRX.

I've been pretty unimpressed with a majority of these cars. With the exception of the 328xi and the WRX, I felt these cars had numb steering and felt clumsy. The WRX felt like it had the best acceleration although the TL and G37 had better hp. The steering felt the best in the WRX by far.

I had high hopes for these test drives but have been pretty disappointed. I am not willing to spend $20k on a car that I don't absolutely love. All the cars I drove had a sticker of $24k+. Another problem is that to get the price range I want in many of these cars I will have to get one that has over 60,000 miles and probably more. The probably with the WRX is that a new one is out of my price range and if I go used, odds are it will be beat to shit. Also I felt the interior feels cheap and feels like I'm driving in a tin can. I guess there are some sacrifices that will need to be made in this price range.

I am coming to the realization that I may be stretching too far and simply can't afford a car that has everything I want right now. And I don't really see a point in spending over $15k unless it has everything I want which is unlikely at this price point.

So now I'm looking for something used under $15k that isn't embarrassing to drive (like a Prius). Probably won't be able to get the acceleration I'm looking for at this price, but maybe there is still something that is kinda fun as a manual transmission and high tech interior with a good sound system with ipod hookup.

It seems like manual transmission in most cars is becoming harder to find and may also negatively affect resale value. I am starting to think I may need to abandon this requirement.
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tyrion
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by tyrion »

pennypincher wrote:So far I've driven a BMW 328xi, Audi A4, Infiniti G37, Acura TL AWD, Lexus IS 250, Subaru Impreza, and Subaru WRX.

I've been pretty unimpressed with a majority of these cars. With the exception of the 328xi and the WRX, I felt these cars had numb steering and felt clumsy. The WRX felt like it had the best acceleration although the TL and G37 had better hp. The steering felt the best in the WRX by far.

I had high hopes for these test drives but have been pretty disappointed. I am not willing to spend $20k on a car that I don't absolutely love. All the cars I drove had a sticker of $24k+. Another problem is that to get the price range I want in many of these cars I will have to get one that has over 60,000 miles and probably more. The probably with the WRX is that a new one is out of my price range and if I go used, odds are it will be beat to shit. Also I felt the interior feels cheap and feels like I'm driving in a tin can. I guess there are some sacrifices that will need to be made in this price range.

I am coming to the realization that I may be stretching too far and simply can't afford a car that has everything I want right now. And I don't really see a point in spending over $15k unless it has everything I want which is unlikely at this price point.

So now I'm looking for something used under $15k that isn't embarrassing to drive (like a Prius). Probably won't be able to get the acceleration I'm looking for at this price, but maybe there is still something that is kinda fun as a manual transmission and high tech interior with a good sound system with ipod hookup.

It seems like manual transmission in most cars is becoming harder to find and may also negatively affect resale value. I am starting to think I may need to abandon this requirement.

Yes, you are realizing the cars you want are out of your comfort level for how much you want to spend. I think if you look at the sporty cars (with less horsepower) you may find something that fits the bill better, especially in terms of handling and driving feel. Mazda 3 and Civic SI and two that may fit the bill. Nimble handling, available with a manual transmission, under 25k new. A manual Mazda 3 is well under 20k if you don't get all the option packages. As a bonus, these will also get good gas mileage and will likely last 150k+ miles.
Busting Myths
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Busting Myths »

pennypincher wrote:So far I've driven a BMW 328xi, Audi A4, Infiniti G37, Acura TL AWD, Lexus IS 250, Subaru Impreza, and Subaru WRX.

I've been pretty unimpressed with a majority of these cars. With the exception of the 328xi and the WRX, I felt these cars had numb steering and felt clumsy. The WRX felt like it had the best acceleration although the TL and G37 had better hp. The steering felt the best in the WRX by far.

I had high hopes for these test drives but have been pretty disappointed. I am not willing to spend $20k on a car that I don't absolutely love. All the cars I drove had a sticker of $24k+. Another problem is that to get the price range I want in many of these cars I will have to get one that has over 60,000 miles and probably more. The probably with the WRX is that a new one is out of my price range and if I go used, odds are it will be beat to shit. Also I felt the interior feels cheap and feels like I'm driving in a tin can. I guess there are some sacrifices that will need to be made in this price range.

I am coming to the realization that I may be stretching too far and simply can't afford a car that has everything I want right now. And I don't really see a point in spending over $15k unless it has everything I want which is unlikely at this price point.

So now I'm looking for something used under $15k that isn't embarrassing to drive (like a Prius). Probably won't be able to get the acceleration I'm looking for at this price, but maybe there is still something that is kinda fun as a manual transmission and high tech interior with a good sound system with ipod hookup.

It seems like manual transmission in most cars is becoming harder to find and may also negatively affect resale value. I am starting to think I may need to abandon this requirement.
VW GTI. It will not be a track monster like a WRX but for everyday living it has everything you are looking for. Great steering feel, nice interior, handles great for day to day driving, and nearly half of all new GTI's are stick.

The new MKVII are out now so you might be able to find a closeout on a MKVI (the one I have). The MKVI does not look that much different than the new MKVII and almost all the issues have been sorted out since 2012. Biggest issues were water pumps and intake manifolds but VW has revised parts so the newer ones should not have these issues.
bubbadog
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by bubbadog »

No love for the Prius from the OP. He stated he would be to embarrassed to drive a Prius. As he gets older, he may realize that noone cares what car he is driving as everyone is too wrapped up thinking about themselves most of the time. Full disclosure, I have a 2008 Prius.
technovelist
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by technovelist »

TRC wrote:I like the WRX too, but for me (I'm 36 with kids), it felt too much like a car for someone young and doesn't care about refinements. The Altima is a good car. I had a 2003 Altima back in the day with leather, bose, V6, etc. Nice ride. I feel like Nissan has gone down in quality & refinements though over the years.

You may want to look into a certified Acura TL. It's what I "graduated" too, and I got the SH-AWD version (Super Handling All Wheel Drive). Really nice car - super sporty, fast (300hp), but very luxurious. Plus it's got Honda reliability. The AWD ones are more money than the front wheel drive ones, and it gets worse mileage (I average 23-24), but it drives awesome. The FWD ones get better mileage, but the engine is slightly smaller and the suspension is different. They are discontinuing the TL for 2015 and coming out with the "TLX", so you can probably get a really good deal on a new one, but it's likely going to run you in the low to mid-30's. CPO you can definitely get in the low to mid 20s. I can't say enough good things about these cars.
I have a 2008 TL-Type S, and love it, other than that it's not as comfortable as my 2001 Maxima for long trips.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
technovelist
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by technovelist »

sdsailing wrote:Planning to buy a new car every five years is high on the list of bad financial decisions. In fact it is one of the classical examples often held up in teaching about personal financial planning.
+1. I keep my vehicles an average of about 15 years, which I realize is way too short according to some people here. But the safety equipment keeps improving, so I rationalize it that way...
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
madbrain
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

pennypincher wrote: So now I'm looking for something used under $15k that isn't embarrassing to drive (like a Prius). Probably won't be able to get the acceleration I'm looking for at this price, but maybe there is still something that is kinda fun as a manual transmission and high tech interior with a good sound system with ipod hookup.
I really have no idea what you are talking about here, the Prius is in no way embarrassing. It has very high satisfaction rating. It has been the number 1 selling car in California for several years. California is largest car market in the US.

The Prius may only have 134hp of power, but I can't even imagine needing more on public roads for a 5-seater/5-door passenger car.
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Bammerman
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Prius embarrassing? I don't think so and my Volt doesn't eit

Post by Bammerman »

We have a Prius and it's a fine car, not at all "embarrassing" in any way. But don't make up your mind until you test-drive a Volt! (Be sure to put it in "sport" mode first!) It's ZOOM ZOOM without the noise, 'cause it's electric, mostly.
wesef
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by wesef »

Sometimes I look over at the guy in the Audi and think, "If we weren't both stuck in this terrible traffic jam, I'm sure he'd really show me what's what." Then he'll careen ahead and I'll meet him at the next light.

Too bad we can't all commute along empty mountain roads. As it stands, so long as you can accelerate into merges in the interstate, you've probably got all the everyday HP you need. Maybe get a beater Accord and save up for a track car.
wander
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by wander »

I think Nissan Maxima is a good choice: powerful and reliable.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

I didn't mean to offend any Prius owners. If you enjoy the car that's great. "Embarrassing" was probably a poor choice of words as I don't really care what others think. I just think the car is ugly.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Lafder »

I was excited when I bought a new Prius a few years ago. However, once the newness wore off, it is truly boring to drive. I wish I had bought something more fun to drive. BUt the one thing I do love is the gas mileage! My son pointed out hybrid car owners have to do the walk of shame when they actually pull into a gas station for gas even though it is far and few between. My brother is embarrassed for me that I drive it.

We have been looking for a new car and I was very impressed with the WRX. It is way more car (acceleration and handling) than I need. But wow.

My suggestion is, pick a comfortable price point and look at actual used cars in that price range to see actual cars you would get. it sounds like the cars you are looking at are all over your stated budget.

If I had a do over on my Prius purchase, I would have spent the same $ on a slightly used "nicer" car. But, I would have less money in my pocket today due to the amount I have saved on gas as well as repairs and maintenance on a new vs used car.

My dad reads car magazines and only wanted to drive the highest rated driving cars. He ended up getting a Mazda 3, he also drove the WRX, though it was hard for me to imagine a 70 year old driving around in it. (His last 3 cars were BMWs and he and I have both driven on the Autobahn)

Whatever you get will be better than what you have now : )
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NNate
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by NNate »

'09 WRX driver here. You certainly get a lot of engine/fun for your money, but basically no comfort. It's bare-bones. After 5 years of driving it, I think I've hit my "fun" quotient and am craving something that offers more than just an engine. A point you may/may not hit as well.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

Checked out a Focus ST yesterday. Didn't really like it. Yes it had some pickup but I was still underwhelmed. The interior felt very crammed. I am 6 ft 180lbs. Also couldn't get past the $20k+ price tag. I feel like I won't be satisfied acceleration wise unless its something like an S4 or 335i or something similar.


So now I've decided to change everything and don't care about acceleration. Just looking for something under $15k with a nice interior and sound system. Reliability is a plus and I realize I need something roomy inside so I guess I can rule out all compact cars. Gonna check out older Acura TL and maybe a Fusion, Chrysler, Cadillac. What other 4 dr sedans have nice interiors?
JoeJohnson
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by JoeJohnson »

Lexus ES350, Toyota Avalon
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

Still searching for a car. I recently drove a GTI and was shocked at how much fun this car was to drive. Now I understand what refinement really means in a car. The shifting was so smooth. What a difference from all the other clunkers I've been test driving.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

pennypincher wrote:Still searching for a car. I recently drove a GTI and was shocked at how much fun this car was to drive. Now I understand what refinement really means in a car. The shifting was so smooth. What a difference from all the other clunkers I've been test driving.
If you like smooth shifting, you should really test drive a car with a CVT, as there is no such thing as shifting with a CVT.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

madbrain wrote:
pennypincher wrote:Still searching for a car. I recently drove a GTI and was shocked at how much fun this car was to drive. Now I understand what refinement really means in a car. The shifting was so smooth. What a difference from all the other clunkers I've been test driving.
If you like smooth shifting, you should really test drive a car with a CVT, as there is no such thing as shifting with a CVT.
The car I drove was a manual transmission and that's what made it so fun.
opus360
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by opus360 »

Honda Accord V-6 is my top pick. It does everything well for a decent mpg.

Although if I were in OP's case, I would go for the 4 cylinder Accord, as it is cheaper to buy, better on gas, cheaper on maintenance.
madbrain
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

pennypincher wrote:
The car I drove was a manual transmission and that's what made it so fun.
I guess I will never be able to understand the appeal of a manual transmission. It is much more difficult to use. They seem to be very popular in France where I grew up, where you have to pass your driving test on a stick shift regardless of what type of transmission car you end up actually driving on the road. My sister has spent thousands of euros on state mandated driving lessons/tests and failed I believe 3 times, and given up on driving altogether because of that requirement, which is a huge pain for her given she has 2 kids.
Fortunately, there is no such silliness in California where I learned to drive, on an automatic .

I have tried to figure out why stick shifts remain so popular in France. As far as I can tell, it comes down to cost. The manual cars transmission are just less expensive to manufacture. And cars overall cost way more in France than the US due to all sorts of taxes, so the difference in cost gets magnified.
Last edited by madbrain on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by livesoft »

The French thing about manual transmission is probably just a test of coordination. If you are not coordinated enough to drive a manual transmission car, then perhaps the authorities feel you have no business at all driving a car anyways.
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madbrain
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

livesoft wrote:The French thing about manual transmission is probably just a test of coordination. If you are not coordinated enough to drive a manual transmission car, then perhaps the authorities feel you have no business at all driving a car anyways.
Maybe that is the case, I don't know. But I still don't think it makes sense. We should get with the program and let technology help us where it's available.
Eventually we will all have self-driving cars. Should we still need to know how to drive stick at that point ?
IMO, different driving tests could be offered and the driver's license could state whether you can drive automatic only, or stick also.

Sadly, I can tell you that French drivers don't drive any better than US drivers, despite the test being more difficult and more expensive.
Atilla
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Atilla »

Manual transmissions are all about total control. Automatics are lazier and easier to drive...but there is always a compromise. You put up with the factory slushbox settings meant to be OK for a wide variety of situations. Manuals get around all that and let an informed driver decide what he or she wants to do.
madbrain
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

Atilla wrote:Manual transmissions are all about total control. Automatics are lazier and easier to drive...but there is always a compromise. You put up with the factory slushbox settings meant to be OK for a wide variety of situations. Manuals get around all that and let an informed driver decide what he or she wants to do.
Honestly, I don't see what the big fuss is with manual transmissions. You don't see one in a Tesla S, which I realize is out of the OP's budget, but certainly a fun car to drive, reportedly, despite lack of any fixed gears to shift.

These days when most people on the road are distracted by their cell phones, music, or any number of things, I can't imagine having a car that requires more effort on the part of the driver at all times is a plus.

Maybe this is the car for the OP. A car with a CVT, which is very practical for driving in real-world traffic, but emulates fixed gears if you really want to manually shift when you are alone on the road .

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neofight
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by neofight »

I think the "manual is much better than auto" idea kind of depends on the auto gearbox. We purchased a VW GTI with the DSG rather than the manual since the DSG was just so darn good - lightning fast changes, and when run in sport mode the gearbox aggressively downshifts to keep the engine in a good powerband spot. At the time we drove a LOT of the cars mentioned here, and more, decided that the DSG was good enough to get an auto where we had previously only considered manuals. Plus with the paddle-shifters you can give the DSG the hints you want, if you like to do that, and it rapidly follows your commands.

I'll add my voice to the fray to consider a VW GTI - after trying most of the 250-350hp cars from EU, JPN, KR & US manufacturers we settled on a GTI, and every time I see someone swishing around in a nice 3-series or RS-something, I get a smug sense of satisfaction that my GTI is about ~90% of the fun for 50-60% of the price! :)
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Epsilon Delta »

livesoft wrote:The French thing about manual transmission is probably just a test of coordination. If you are not coordinated enough to drive a manual transmission car, then perhaps the authorities feel you have no business at all driving a car anyways.
Whatever the position was years ago, today the French do let you take a test in on an automatic, but if you do the license is endorsed to only allow you to drive an automatic. I believe this is the case in many other countries, it certainly has been the situation the UK since at least 1980.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by denovo »

If you want a car that is fun to drive, test something with a turbo engine. I think you'll fall in love with it, the acceleration is really fun on cars with turbo, it feels like you have a rocket attached to the rear of the car.

P.S. The OP wanted advice on a driving experience, not a lecture from "Mom and Dad" about why it's bad to have a fun car.

If you don't like VW, how about an Audi or a Bimmer, although of course Audi and VW are part of the same company.
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denovo
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by denovo »

madbrain wrote: Eventually we will all have self-driving cars.
I am not sure how far eventually is, but there'd be a snowball's chance in Hell I'd give up driving unless it's against the law. I am someone who enjoys driving and considers it to be fun. I wouldn't mind if others weren't driving however. But ya, if you really want the driving experience, on a good , fast car, you need to be going with a manual transmission.
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neofight
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by neofight »

denovo wrote:But ya, if you really want the driving experience, on a good , fast car, you need to be going with a manual transmission.
Except that most performance car manufacturers now post faster 0-60 times on their automatic transmissions than on their manual ones, e.g. the Porsche 911 Carrera lists 4.6s on a manual and 4.2s on an automatic; BMW 335i lists 5.4s for manual and 5.1 for auto. The automatic gearboxes execute a shift in 180-200ms, which is faster than most humans can (0.2s)
madbrain
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by madbrain »

denovo wrote:
madbrain wrote: Eventually we will all have self-driving cars.
I am not sure how far eventually is, but there'd be a snowball's chance in Hell I'd give up driving unless it's against the law. I am someone who enjoys driving and considers it to be fun. I wouldn't mind if others weren't driving however. But ya, if you really want the driving experience, on a good , fast car, you need to be going with a manual transmission.
I have no idea how long "eventually" is.

I don't think it's going to be against the law to drive your own car anytime soon. I suspect at some point, it will be more expensive to insure a human-driven car as opposed to self-driven.
But it could be a very long time before the self driven cars cost less than the "manuals" (and I'm not talking transmission).
investingdad
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by investingdad »

I have a 2013 Nissan Maxima. It's a V6 with 290 HP. The accelleration is very nice but it's front wheel drive and you get a lot of torque steer. It has a CVT transmission so there's no shifting feel from the automatic transmission. I've been a lifelong stick shift guy and find the CVT coupled with a V6 to be really nice and smooth. It's also a pig in the corners. But I'm married and have two grade school age kids and they really like the room in the back. I opted for cloth seats. The infotainment system on the base car is outdated, I added an aftermarket (fully integrated) Sirius radio that helps but it's not ideal. This car is really comfortable for highway driving and it's got a lot of passing power at highway speeds. It's a refined ride. I got it for 26.9K new, stickered at 32K.

I recently had a rental 2013 Mercedes Benz CL250 while the Maxima was getting sheet metal repair due to a deer strike. Now THAT car handles great. It's an all wheel drive car with 7 speed automatic. I didn't like the transmission and it felt a little underpowered, but the AWD and traction control system were FANTASTIC for handling in the corners. It had a pleather interior and had a typical, cold German feel to it. I didn't like it. It also was very rough on the bumps, as you'd expect from such a great suspension set-up. The CL250 felt like a larger version of my Miata in some regards.

I'd suggest looking at a V6 Altima. Recently re-designed and very good power. The Maxima update has been delayed. I chose the Maxima over the Altima for the more refined ride and larger interior space for the kids.
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