Which 4 door with 250+ hp

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pennypincher
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Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

Hello fellow bogleheads,

I'm hoping to get some advice on which car to buy. For the past few days I have been reading all the recent car threads on the forum. I am posting now to hopefully get some advice specific to my situation.

For the past 6+ years I have been driving a 2000 Nissan Altima. The car had 209k miles on it when the engine unfortunately died last week so I will be needing a new car within a couple weeks. I am 30 years old have 25k in the bank and 75k in Fidelity index funds. I make 75k/year. No wife or kids. I commute about 90 miles 4-5 days a week for work.

I know next to nothing about cars and have never bought, financed or leased a car before. I want a car to drive for the next 5 years after which I will want to upgrade to something different as I hope to be in a better financial situation. I don't know if I should get new or used.

I test drove a new Subaru Impreza yesterday and did not like it. I thought it was sloppy and boring to drive. Then I drove a new Subaru WRX and really enjoyed it. Very responsive and quick and I really enjoyed the acceleration. I had never driven a car like this before. It wasn't an STI. I think the stats on it were 265hp and something like 268 lb-ft torque (I'm not sure which stat has more to do with the acceleration). The car is something like 31k new. From reading these boards it seems the best way to buy is cash so this would be a little out of my price range unless I were to dip into my Fidelity account. I also read it is better to buy used rather than new.

What are some suggestions for a car (model and year) that will be a similar experience to the WRX.

Other important factors:
Reliable
4 door
Decent gas mileage

Also looking for advice on a budget for a car based on my financial situation.

Thanks
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linuxology
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by linuxology »

It is not against the rules to not pay cash. Attempt to get a 0% interest loan. Judging on how long you keep your vehicles, buying new may not be a bad idea, plus you will have all of the maintenance and the way it was driven it's entire life before unloading.
TRC
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by TRC »

I like the WRX too, but for me (I'm 36 with kids), it felt too much like a car for someone young and doesn't care about refinements. The Altima is a good car. I had a 2003 Altima back in the day with leather, bose, V6, etc. Nice ride. I feel like Nissan has gone down in quality & refinements though over the years.

You may want to look into a certified Acura TL. It's what I "graduated" too, and I got the SH-AWD version (Super Handling All Wheel Drive). Really nice car - super sporty, fast (300hp), but very luxurious. Plus it's got Honda reliability. The AWD ones are more money than the front wheel drive ones, and it gets worse mileage (I average 23-24), but it drives awesome. The FWD ones get better mileage, but the engine is slightly smaller and the suspension is different. They are discontinuing the TL for 2015 and coming out with the "TLX", so you can probably get a really good deal on a new one, but it's likely going to run you in the low to mid-30's. CPO you can definitely get in the low to mid 20s. I can't say enough good things about these cars.
DSInvestor
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by DSInvestor »

I hear the Suburu WRX is a rocket. There aren't too many cars like it at that price range. Did you drive the Suburu BRZ (2 door)?

My friends who commute distances like yours like to use hybrid cars like Prius. They're in California (SF Bay Area) and enjoy single occupant access to HOV commuter lanes with the special sticker/decal. They may not be as exciting to drive as a WRX but Prius is fuel efficient, functional and reliable.

For reliability, I like Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura. Toyota Camry is 4 door and have some models with 250+HP. Honda Accord also have models with 250+HP. Civic SI is sportier than the base models.
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harland
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by harland »

Just finished reading a Car and Driver comparo and they ended up preferring the Volkswagen GTI over the Subaru WRX despite the former's less powerful engine (210 hp vs 268 hp). It was also about $1k cheaper.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

As I'm trying to decide on a budget, and whether to pay cash I think I should take depreciation into account. Is depreciation predictable in most of these cars? If I want to keep the car about 5 years I can afford a total depreciation of $10,000 to $12,000 or about $2,000 to $2,500 per year during this time which would make my cost about $150 to $200 per month.

Is this reasonable?

What would an average depreciation rate be? Is there an easy way to figure this out?
DSInvestor
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by DSInvestor »

pennypincher wrote:As I'm trying to decide on a budget, and whether to pay cash I think I should take depreciation into account. Is depreciation predictable in most of these cars? If I want to keep the car about 5 years I can afford a total depreciation of $10,000 to $12,000 or about $2,000 to $2,500 per year during this time which would make my cost about $150 to $200 per month.

Is this reasonable?

What would an average depreciation rate be? Is there an easy way to figure this out?
You should consider getting a nice reliable car and keeping for longer than 5 years. Buying cars every 3-5 years are dangerous to your financial health. Maybe even look into a nice used late model car with low miles. We replaced our Acura after about 250K miles with a used 2009 Honda Civic EX with 40K miles and looked brand new. We bought new tires before we went on a long road trip across WA, OR, CA, NV, UT, WY, MT, ID.

My sister drove a Honda Civic in college, med school and residency. Her income is substantially higher now and she's driving a Honda Accord V6 and is perfectly happy.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Atilla
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Atilla »

My friend has a WRX and my wife has an Infiniti G35x. As far as acceleration, the WRX can't hold a candle to the G.

I've driven the newer G37X and the additional power and two additional gears (in the auto) make a huge difference over the G35.

I see low mileage later model G37s for sale in the mid $20,000s. 328 claimed horsepower. Standing quarter mile times in the high 13s at over 100 mph. Zero to 60 MPH in about 5 seconds. :D
TareNeko
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by TareNeko »

I have driven a WRX before and did not like it. Turbo lag is too great.

I would consider GTI or Focus ST.
grsimmon
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by grsimmon »

Turbo diesel, certified used.
Topic Author
pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

DSInvestor wrote:
pennypincher wrote:As I'm trying to decide on a budget, and whether to pay cash I think I should take depreciation into account. Is depreciation predictable in most of these cars? If I want to keep the car about 5 years I can afford a total depreciation of $10,000 to $12,000 or about $2,000 to $2,500 per year during this time which would make my cost about $150 to $200 per month.

Is this reasonable?

What would an average depreciation rate be? Is there an easy way to figure this out?
You should consider getting a nice reliable car and keeping for longer than 5 years. Buying cars every 3-5 years are dangerous to your financial health. Maybe even look into a nice used late model car with low miles. We replaced our Acura after about 250K miles with a used 2009 Honda Civic EX with 40K miles and looked brand new. We bought new tires before we went on a long road trip across WA, OR, CA, NV, UT, WY, MT, ID.

My sister drove a Honda Civic in college, med school and residency. Her income is substantially higher now and she's driving a Honda Accord V6 and is perfectly happy.

Why is it bad for my financial health. Unless I am completely missing something with my deprecation logic, $200 per month seems reasonable for a car.

As I'm narrowing my search I really like the Infiniti G37 or older G35, Honda Accord V6, Subaru WRX, and Acura TL. I really dislike VW cars. Any other cars to consider? I think I should be looking at cars 3-5 years old that have already taken a big depreciation hit.

I really would like a car that still has a true manual transmission with a clutch. Unfortunately it seems like these are becoming more rare and are being replaced with those weird hybrid shifters.
hicabob
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by hicabob »

G37's are very nice - a lease return with some warranty left is not a bad way to go

http://www.unitedimports.co/used-invent ... rice=clear
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Ged
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Ged »

One advantage of the TL vs the Accord V6 is that it doesn't have the variable cylinder management flaw er 'feature'.

The 6MT on the TL is nice. Not easy to find though.
Valuethinker
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Valuethinker »

I think you are defining the problem the wrong way.

not '4 door with 250+ hp' but

'Four door car with adequate acceleration and the other desirable features'.

In other words it's not horsepower you want, it is *acceleration*. A 0 to 60 figure is helpful but the most likely acceleration you will do is say 30-60 mph coming onto a highway, or 0 to 30 moh coming out of a parking lot.

Horsepower generates acceleration, but there is also weight and wind resistance. And there is a degree of subjectivity in the perception of acceleration depending on car.
tibbitts
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by tibbitts »

Valuethinker wrote:I think you are defining the problem the wrong way.

not '4 door with 250+ hp' but

'Four door car with adequate acceleration and the other desirable features'.

In other words it's not horsepower you want, it is *acceleration*. A 0 to 60 figure is helpful but the most likely acceleration you will do is say 30-60 mph coming onto a highway, or 0 to 30 moh coming out of a parking lot.

Horsepower generates acceleration, but there is also weight and wind resistance. And there is a degree of subjectivity in the perception of acceleration depending on car.
I don't understand the horsepower requirement either. Where/how are people driving that they need so much power? If anything torque might make more sense, or torque/weight ratio maybe, but I still don't know where it would matter. When I was younger I used to drive more enthusiastically, even 100-175hp (with up to about 4500lbs, anyway) felt pretty exciting.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

Valuethinker wrote:I think you are defining the problem the wrong way.

not '4 door with 250+ hp' but

'Four door car with adequate acceleration and the other desirable features'.

In other words it's not horsepower you want, it is *acceleration*. A 0 to 60 figure is helpful but the most likely acceleration you will do is say 30-60 mph coming onto a highway, or 0 to 30 moh coming out of a parking lot.

Horsepower generates acceleration, but there is also weight and wind resistance. And there is a degree of subjectivity in the perception of acceleration depending on car.

I agree. It's just that I know nothing about cars so didn't really know how to define it in terms that everyone would understand. The 0-30 mph and 30-60mph acceleration is exactly what I'm looking for. I just didn't know how to define it in a way that everyone would understand so that I could get recs comparable to the WRX. Is there something to look for in the specs of cars I'm looking into or is it more of a subjective thing? Is the closest thing just to look at 0 - 60 times?
Last edited by pennypincher on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by livesoft »

i'm surprised Nissan Maxima didn't immediately pop ito your head. We had the 4DSC model with manual transmission for many many years.
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DSInvestor
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by DSInvestor »

pennypincher wrote:Why is it bad for my financial health. Unless I am completely missing something with my deprecation logic, $200 per month seems reasonable for a car.
You're young and early in your accumulation phase. Buying a car or new car every 5 years diverts lots of money that would otherwise go to other potentially important areas such as retirement savings, paying off college debt, home downpayment or paying off a house. If you can find a car that is reliable, fuel efficient, fun to drive, practical and low cost to maintain, you don't have to lay out 25-50K every few years. 25-50K is a lot of money to me and I think it's a lot of money to you too. I'd rather spend that every 10+ years than every 5.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Valuethinker »

pennypincher wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:I think you are defining the problem the wrong way.

not '4 door with 250+ hp' but

'Four door car with adequate acceleration and the other desirable features'.

In other words it's not horsepower you want, it is *acceleration*. A 0 to 60 figure is helpful but the most likely acceleration you will do is say 30-60 mph coming onto a highway, or 0 to 30 moh coming out of a parking lot.

Horsepower generates acceleration, but there is also weight and wind resistance. And there is a degree of subjectivity in the perception of acceleration depending on car.

I agree. It's just that I know nothing about cars so didn't really know how to define it in terms that everyone would understand. The 0-30 mph and 30-60mph acceleration is exactly what I'm looking for. I just didn't know how to define it in a way that everyone would understand so that I could get recs comparable to the WRX. Is there something to look for in the specs of cars I'm looking into or is it more of a subjective thing? Is the closest thing just to look at 0 - 60 times?
Fair enough but acceleration 0-60 is usually a pretty standard number around car specs and car reviews? Find out what yours is now and then find cars around that level now.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by DFrank »

pennypincher wrote:Why is it bad for my financial health. Unless I am completely missing something with my deprecation logic, $200 per month seems reasonable for a car.
I think it's because depreciation is non-linear over the lifetime of the car. It's steeper in the early years, and then tails off. That time frame gets you all the downsides of the early steep depreciation years, without harvesting the benefits of amortizing the initial cost over a large number of years/miles.

In general, cars have become much more reliable. It used to be that getting to 100k miles was an achievement. That's now about the 1/2 life for many cars depending on how much you want to deal with the risk of increased maintenance costs towards the end of the car's life. IMO, if you are going to buy new you should plan on keeping cars for about 8-10 years or 150k miles, whichever comes first.

If you want to keep your cars for a shorter period of time then picking up a 2 or 3 year old lease return may be a better option. They often can be bought certified pre-owned, and they have the worst of the early year depreciation behind them.
pennypincher wrote:As I'm narrowing my search I really like the Infiniti G37 or older G35, Honda Accord V6, Subaru WRX, and Acura TL. I really dislike VW cars. Any other cars to consider? I think I should be looking at cars 3-5 years old that have already taken a big depreciation hit.
The stats would tell you that the Honda probably is the most reliable on this list. The Infinitis and Accords will be fundamentally reliable (e.g the engine, drivetrain, chassis will be fine), but these models tend to have more sophisticated features and my experience is these are often where you have more reliability issues. I'd stay away from VW based on reliability history.
pennypincher wrote:I really would like a car that still has a true manual transmission with a clutch. Unfortunately it seems like these are becoming more rare and are being replaced with those weird hybrid shifters.
Good luck with that! True manual transmissions are going the way of the dodo bird in the U.S.. One thing to be aware of is this will lower your resale value since most people don't want them anymore. I think you can still find these from most of the European brands (BMW for sure still offers manual transmissions on most of it's models), but the reliability of the European cars isn't up to the standards of the Japanese cars IMO.

Dave
Last edited by DFrank on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MindBogler
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by MindBogler »

The g35x or the newer g37s are a safe bet. I've had one for 8 years that I purchased 1 year old/slightly used and haven't had a single mechanical problem. Sure I've changed brakes and changed fluids but nothing unexpected has cropped up. It's comfortable and probably too fast but it is very surefooted in all driving conditions.
TFinator
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by TFinator »

pennypincher wrote:s there something to look for in the specs of cars I'm looking into or is it more of a subjective thing? Is the closest thing just to look at 0 - 60 times?
If you want true speed, then HP is what to look for - and the HP/weight ratio. IE - If you have a civic and a mercedes w/ the same engine the civic will be faster, as it has the same HP, but less weight. That being said - the mercedes will drive nicer and quieter.
The torque is what makes you feel like you're getting pushed into your seat. I test drove a Golf TDI, and although you're not pulling an incredible 0-60 time, it feels like you are because it has so much torque at only 3k rpm.
My boss drives a mercedes diesel 4 door. I ride in it quite a lot. It is a very nice ride with a heck of a lot of 'get up and go' and still gets 30mpg or so.
Good luck!
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gunn_show
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by gunn_show »

livesoft wrote:i'm surprised Nissan Maxima didn't immediately pop ito your head. We had the 4DSC model with manual transmission for many many years.
+1, was going to be my offer as well. but after reading the thread, and having several friends with Infinitis, the G35/37 route is probably better for this younger dude than a Maxima. And should also be cheaper. I mean, they are almost identical cars anyway seeing as Nissan is Infiniti, but the G car is more sporty and attractive. Especially if you can get a G37 in the low 20s gently used as some are commenting. The Maxima is a 4door 290hp beast tho...
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takingcharge
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by takingcharge »

Honda Civic SI sedan. Try to find a good used one that has not been abused and hot-rodded.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-si-sedan/
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semperlux
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by semperlux »

+1 on the WRX

Since you are young, not married, have no kids, the WRX gives the most bang for the buck acceleration wise (0-60 in 5.2 ....ie torque) starting at $26k. I can't think of another vehicle with that 0-60 time at that price.

However if you are planning to get married or have kids any time soon, then you may want to find a more family oriented car.

Edit / addendum: The BMW 1 series has a 0-60 of 5.1 seconds (for the manual transmission), but cost a bit more starting at $31k. However it's pretty stripped down tech wise, but is a fun car to "throw around."

Edit edit: Just saw the above posts, G37 is also comparable to the BMW 1 series in price & performance.
Last edited by semperlux on Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
arcane23
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by arcane23 »

I would also recommend you look at the mazda 6. The new car is completely redesigned and handles like a German car with excellent handling and enough oomph. (I drive a 2013 bmw 640i as my daily driver and just helped my cousin get a mazda 6 after evaluating the new Accord, Altima and Fusion).

You get 38mpg hwy, 30 combined so that should save you money on gas since you have a long commute. Best of all, mazda is offering 0%. financing for 60 months so no need to pay cash!
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sdsailing
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by sdsailing »

Planning to buy a new car every five years is high on the list of bad financial decisions. In fact it is one of the classical examples often held up in teaching about personal financial planning.
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MilleniumBuc
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by MilleniumBuc »

I drive a 2013 Hyundai sonata 2.0t, and it has 274 hp. The acceleration of 0-60 is good, but the one when you are at 65-70 mph and need to pass is great. I also drive about 90 miles rt mostly on the highway and it gets me 27-28 mpg with very spirited driving and about 31-32 on cruise control at 70.

The newer ones have a reduced hp listing (don't know why). Could get a 12-13 for 15-20k most likely instead of 27-28 new.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

sdsailing wrote:Planning to buy a new car every five years is high on the list of bad financial decisions. In fact it is one of the classical examples often held up in teaching about personal financial planning.
Not brand new. New as in a newer used car. I don't see what's so bad about it. If I were to buy a car for $25,000 and use it for 10 years and sell it for like $2000 at the end, that will also come out to like $190/month. I don't see the difference in the example I gave in an earlier post where you buy it 3 years old drive it for 5 years then sell it with estimating depreciation $2 to $2.5 k per year the cost per month is roughly the same. Please tell me something I am forgetting which makes my logic flawed. I don't really want to plan on hanging onto a car for 10 years. Maybe 5 is too short, but 10 just seems too long to me.

Back to which car... I've been reading about torque and power to weight ratio trying to understand it better. The WRX I drove was about 0-60mph in 6 seconds, 265hp, ~270 ft-lb torque, and a power to weight ratio of ~12. So I guess I will start there to compare. On one site I found some forum members thought referred to a power to weight ratio of 10:1 (I guess it should be called weight to power ratio) as the golden ratio. The WRX was 12:1 though and I enjoyed it.

There was a good point made about manual transmissions would not hold value as well. This makes sense so I think I will be able to settle on doing without.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by rooms222 »

I would test drive the manual on any car you are interested in, as the power response is often quite different, in a positive way for the manual.

I would look at the Scion tC as well. It was designed to be in the same class as the Subaru you liked, and has bulletproof reliability. I had one of the first ones made, and they had a lot of trim problems (door handles, hatchback, radio cover). Those have been fixed. The drivetrain gets good mileage for the power it has.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Crimsontide »

MindBogler wrote:The g35x or the newer g37s are a safe bet. I've had one for 8 years that I purchased 1 year old/slightly used and haven't had a single mechanical problem. Sure I've changed brakes and changed fluids but nothing unexpected has cropped up. It's comfortable and probably too fast but it is very surefooted in all driving conditions.
I had a G35 for 10 years, very quick, fast and reliable vehicle. Would have bought another new one if my wages would have kept pace with the prices :(
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semperlux
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by semperlux »

What it really boils down to in the end is how you like it when you test drive it. Some cars look good on paper, but you won't know until you test drive it to see if you really like it. I'm more of an acceleration & handling kind of guy, so I'm more forgiving on the the lack of "luxury appointments" & a "rougher ride feel" in a vehicle, hence my vote for the WRX still.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

VW GTI with the six speed.

Great engine, room for four real sized people and a hatchback. They hold their value, they are a real hoot to drive and you can afford the extra costs (maintenance and premium fuel.)

Enjoy life, this will cost you maybe an extra 2-3 cents a mile over the soulless (but economical) Asian cars. Edmunds actually projects the five year cost to own at $2000 less that the WRX, go figure.

I drive a rarely imported VW, a 2009 Jetta wagon with the same engine as the GTI, six speed. Easy merge onto highways, there is always a gear or two at hand for passing on twisting two lane roads that prevail here in Northern Vermont, and the upkeep (I have a great dealer in my town) is "reasonable". The fit and finish is much better than any Subaru and I know Subarus, they are the "official" state car here in Vermont. At least drive it so you can see what can be wrung out of a front wheel drive econobox.

Caveat, I am a "car guy" and I economize by sharing a vehicle with my wife and using my bicycle for around town errands.
Last edited by TheGreyingDuke on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chrysogonus
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by chrysogonus »

Financing a car isn't horrible. Some may disagree, but if I can get a loan for under 2%, I'll take it, and finance as much as I can, even if I could pay cash.

Buying new also isn't as horrible as it's been made out to be. The price on 1-2 year old cars of certain brands (Toyota, Honda, maybe Subaru) is fairly high, especially if bought from a dealer. If you're looking for an older car or private party sale the math may be different.

I was considering a WRX, but ended up with a lightly-used boring Hybrid Camry (despite what I said about new vs. used, there are some circumstances that made lightly-used a much better deal for me). The WRX was certainly more fun to drive, but the Camry is comfortable. The Corolla S was also fairly fun, and might be worth a look.

My personal philosophy with cars is to buy new or lightly-used every 10 years or so. It may not be the absolute cheapest, but I think it minimizes hassle about repairs and reliability, and is still fairly cheap.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by KlangFool »

Hi,

I have a 2006 Altima 3.5SE and I just bought a 2014 Altima 2.5SL for about 22K last year. Try out the 2014 Altima before you decide. With the mileage that you are driving, a comfortable driver seat may matters to you more than anything else. I am biased. I had another Altima before the 2006 Altima. This is my third Altima.

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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

The 15 WRX has the new engine which has good reviews overall. Hard to say what reliability will be like until they're wrung out a bit more.

I would agree that 0-60 is a far better measure than horsepower. The WRX 0-60 is 6.1 seconds, G37x is 5.6. (if we went just by horsepower, my 190 hp Elise wouldn't be close.....but it's a second faster than the G37x.... :wink: )

The G37 is WAY more expensive. Likely $10k more for what you find. For a WRX or STi, on resale, automatics will tank your resale. This is a car that is bought by die hard enthusiasts. I've been one of those forever and in the Subaru community since before the WRX hit the shores. Autos sit forever.

You can also look at a Mitsubishi RallyArt. It's the little brother of the Evo. I do think you'll find it very cheap feeling inside.

If you require a manual and AWD, it gets thin and expensive. BMW and Audi have them, but BMW is very limited in the combination of manual and AWD. Audi.....A4's are low 30's starting point and they will order what you want.

For VW, a GTI is NOT a comparable car. To a n/a Impreza, perhaps. A Golf R is closer to a WRX (or STi, actually) and will be expensive.

A focus ST will be the bargain of the bunch. I know lots of guys who have gone from a WRX to a Focus ST and like it. They can be had for low 20's making it really a bargain. Only having to drive 2 wheels makes it more efficient. 0-60 is 5.8. Nearly as fast as the G37X for barely more than half the price.
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semperlux
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by semperlux »

Jack FFR1846 wrote:I would agree that 0-60 is a far better measure than horsepower. The WRX 0-60 is 6.1 seconds, G37x is 5.6.
I agree with your post Jack, especially re the manual being easier to sell than an auto tranny for this category of cars. However I contend that the Ford Focus ST starts at about the same price as the WRX if bought new (~24k), but is slightly slower with 0-60 at 5.7 (see Card & Driver article below). Nevertheless, is definitely comparable and a good recommendation for the OP. I personally prefer the reliability of the Japanese Subaru than the American Ford for this category of cars.

According to Motor Trend, WRX's 0-60 is 5.5 sec

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... irst_test/

Car & Driver's 0-60 for the WRX is 5.4 sec

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... ive-review

Road & Track dyno'd & clocked WRX's 0-60 at 5.2 sec (which I quoted earlier)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews ... wrx-vs-sti



OP would have to bump up his budget to ~32k+ if he wants a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Infinitive G37, or BMW 1 series though for comparable performance.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

I really appreciate all the comments. I've decided on a price range of 15-20k and will not be buying new. I realize I'll have to go a bit older than 2-3 years to get one of these cars in this price range. How old would you go for a used car or does it all depend? I do not want a coupe or hatchback and for some reason I don't like VW at all, but I do appreciate the recs. Although I really enjoyed the WRX I think I'd like something with a bit more comfort as the WRX (at least the one I drove) seemed a bit "bare bones" inside. Any thoughts on used BMW or Audi? Are these generally thought of as unreliable and expensive repairs?

Can anyone recommend a good car forums that won't be incredibly biased towards a certain make?
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

I think the road test's 0-60 times are mostly irrelevant to the everyday consumer. These are high rev launches, wheels just this side of spinning and very brutal on the drive train. For me the times that are more relevant are 45-70 (for passing on two lane roads) and 30-75 for merging onto an interstate. The times in these real world examples require proper gear spacing and the sort as well as raw power.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by mike143 »

Honda Accord Sedan with 4 cylinder and 6-Speed Manual Transmission. There was a long term update in this months Car and Driver. Good balance of fun and economy. I use to have a 04 Accord Sedan 4 cylinder with 5 speed manual, replaced it with a Prius. Expect 2-3 years old historically reliable brands to be near new prices.
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pennypincher
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by pennypincher »

TheGreyingDuke wrote:I think the road test's 0-60 times are mostly irrelevant to the everyday consumer. These are high rev launches, wheels just this side of spinning and very brutal on the drive train. For me the times that are more relevant are 45-70 (for passing on two lane roads) and 30-75 for merging onto an interstate. The times in these real world examples require proper gear spacing and the sort as well as raw power.

What you're saying makes alot of sense but how in the world will I be able to check if a car meets this without test driving every single car?
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by tim1999 »

Certified preowned Infiniti G37, 2011 or 2012. Should be a ton of these at your local Infiniti dealer in the $25,000-$30,000 range. The only con is that the gas mileage isn't particularly great, since it's a big V6 engine.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Traveler »

I just bought a 2014 Maxima yesterday. V6 with 290hp - I won't have problems going up hills. However, the gas mileage won't be great either which isn't a problem for me with a short commute but I wouldn't have bought this car if I had a long commute like yours.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by BolderBoy »

pennypincher wrote:Why is it bad for my financial health. Unless I am completely missing something with my deprecation logic, $200 per month seems reasonable for a car.
Auto depreciation isn't a straight line - the biggest hit is nearly immediate. BH wisdom seems to be that if you want to get rid of a car before driving the life out of it, buy used - let someone else take the big depreciation hit. Buy new if you will drive it "forever".
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Valuethinker »

pennypincher wrote:I really appreciate all the comments. I've decided on a price range of 15-20k and will not be buying new. I realize I'll have to go a bit older than 2-3 years to get one of these cars in this price range. How old would you go for a used car or does it all depend? I do not want a coupe or hatchback and for some reason I don't like VW at all, but I do appreciate the recs. Although I really enjoyed the WRX I think I'd like something with a bit more comfort as the WRX (at least the one I drove) seemed a bit "bare bones" inside. Any thoughts on used BMW or Audi? Are these generally thought of as unreliable and expensive repairs?

Can anyone recommend a good car forums that won't be incredibly biased towards a certain make?
Don't buy a German car if you want frugality. Spares are expensive, repairs are expensive. Buy them for driving performance and 'style'. Vorsprung durch technik and all ;-).

One should check Consumer Reports buy *maybe* BMW is more reliable than Audi and VW. BMers seem to take a hit on depreciation so you might be able to get one fairly cheaply. The 3 and 5 series 4 door sedans are probably the sweet spot in terms of being *relatively* reliable and economic. Avoid the sporty ones would be my advice, because their owners probably drove them hard.

If you want reliability, you want Japanese. I think the Koreans have caught up (but only in recent years). Again check CR reliability records. See what they recommend in the 3 - 5 year old car line.

I generally wouldn't buy a used car more than 5 years old, but a car like my father drove (say 30k miles after 5 years) is obviously very different than one which had done 100k miles (my father's Honda Accord, at 14 years, is still going strong despite North Eastern winters and road salt). So it's about mileage as much as age.

At least a couple of years back talk here was how a new Honda or Toyota was a similar price to an 18 month old one, thus making it worth to buy new. Not sure if that has persisted.

On acceleration you get the picture, probably 0 to 60 is the best generally available metric you are going to get, even though it is quasi irrelevant (they should give us acceleration in g 1 g = 9.8 m/sec squared ;-)).
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by Valuethinker »

TheGreyingDuke wrote:VW GTI with the six speed.

Great engine, room for four real sized people and a hatchback. They hold their value, they are a real hoot to drive and you can afford the extra costs (maintenance and premium fuel.)

Enjoy life, this will cost you maybe an extra 2-3 cents a mile over the soulless (but economical) Asian cars. Edmunds actually projects the five year cost to own at $2000 less that the WRX, go figure.

I drive a rarely imported VW, a 2009 Jetta wagon with the same engine as the GTI, six speed. Easy merge onto highways, there is always a gear or two at hand for passing on twisting two lane roads that prevail here in Northern Vermont, and the upkeep (I have a great dealer in my town) is "reasonable". The fit and finish is much better than any Subaru and I know Subarus, they are the "official" state car here in Vermont. At least drive it so you can see what can be wrung out of a front wheel drive econobox.

Caveat, I am a "car guy" and I economize by sharing a vehicle with my wife and using my bicycle for around town errands.
VT used to show up on all the maps of 'majority of cars'. It was the one state (along with NH) in 'neither of the above' (Japanese or American were the two choices, with the coastal states Japanese (including transplants) and the inland ones American, generally). At the time (early 90s) it was to do with the number of Volvos and Saabs driven in the state, apparently.

Going back to the 80s, VWs (Jetta all engines and the Golf Diesel) in North America had a horrible record for reliability (after the first 2 years or so) and cost of repairs. Don't know if any better, now? I presume so?

German cars are drivers' cars. I get why people want them. Owning them is not a 'sensible' decision from a financial point of view.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by mike143 »

BolderBoy wrote:
pennypincher wrote:Why is it bad for my financial health. Unless I am completely missing something with my deprecation logic, $200 per month seems reasonable for a car.
Auto depreciation isn't a straight line - the biggest hit is nearly immediate. BH wisdom seems to be that if you want to get rid of a car before driving the life out of it, buy used - let someone else take the big depreciation hit. Buy new if you will drive it "forever".
Try to buy a historically reliable brand vehicle that is 2 years old you will find that they are selling above the expect depreciation. A used 2012 Accord LX/LX-P/SE are going for around $18k a new one is about $20k. Now if you desire a vehicle that does't retain its value then definitely buy used, let someone else take the hit.
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by JoeJohnson »

You are driving 20 - 25k miles per year, right?

If you buy a brand new car and drive it 5 years, you're looking at 100 - 125k miles. You might be able to recover 40% of the original purchase price. Let's say you buy a $30k car and get back 40% of the original price. That's $12k value and $18k in depreciation.

If you're going to continue putting on this much mileage I highly suggest you look at 4 cylinder or hybrid. The savings is probably close to $500/yr for the 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder and closer to $900/yr hybrid vs 6 cylinder. This was a quick calculation if you're driving 20k miles per year. Bigger difference if you drive more.

The things you need to ask yourself:

1) Can I change my commute?
2) Will my commute change in the next 5 years?
3) Why are I set on buying another car 5 years from now?
4) Why do I need a V6 for a 90 mile commute? Surely this has to be a lot of highway cruising.
5) Is my calculation of 2 - 2.5k/year in depreciation accurate? Hint: Probably not. On top of that, there are vast other costs associated with owning a car I'm guessing you're not taking into consideration.
6) Why is my budget for a vehicle $200/month when I make $75k/year with $25k in the bank and $75k invested? Is there another area of my life I'm spending too much money on?
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by emoore »

I think it all depends on how much you like to drive and the driving experience. I've owned an Accord (3 recalls) and a Camry. Both were good cars but very boring. That might be what you want but it wasn't what I wanted. I have had a GTI for 3.5 years now and I wouldn't go back. I'll take the "decreased" reliability in order to have a more fun driving experience. I've had 1 think fixed under warranty with the GTI (high pressure fuel pump) and that's the only repair in 51k miles. It has been a terrific car. I like the suggestions of the infinity and Acura too but ultimately it's up to you.
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semperlux
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Re: Which 4 door with 250+ hp

Post by semperlux »

Do you want a "driver's car" or just a comfortable transportation vehicle? If you value reliability & long term cost more, then I'd stick to a certified preowned Acura or Lexus entry model. Japanese cars are more reliable & lower maintenance. Parts are cheaper than German counterparts. They have a little pep in them when you feel like gunning it a little. & the certified preowned should come with a warranty for a few years so you don't get stuck with a lemon.

In terms of testing the 0-60, like someone else above said, unless you rev it at high rpm, those numbers are hard to reproduce. Best metric would be to test drive the car & see how it's acceleration makes you feel. Sometimes the 0-60 looks fast, but the car shakes, chokes, or is very loud to achieve those times, so a slower quieter car thats smoother may be more desirable.
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