Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

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Topic Author
Hayek
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Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

I would appreciate some collective wisdom on this. My wife and I live on the east coast in beautiful old home (130 yrs). We mostly love the house and completely love the location, but we hate the kitchen. We have spec'd out a kitchen remodel plan with a local remodeling firm, but I'm a bit hesitant to fork over my hard-earned cash for a project like this. See the specifications below.

We've only been in this house 1 year, and knew we'd need to do some improvements. I expect we won't be here for more than 10 years. Our goal is to have a really nice outcome, so we're not necessarily trying to cut corners. My habit is to generally not want to spend money, however I do think the outcome of this project would be a big win for our overall well-being. Am I just being a cheapskate? If you were in our shoes and "wanted" to do this, would you?

Note: I don't view this as an investment. It's an expense, as far as I'm concerned.

Project cost: $60k-$70k

Ages 32 and 33, single income, 2 kids.
Annual gross income is roughly $400k (+/- $100k).
Net worth: $975k (including this residence)
House value: $250k
Debt: 30yr mortgage with $190k balance

If you want more information, ask. Apologies if I'm not conforming to some proper BH question schema. This is my first post.
Longtimelurker
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Longtimelurker »

Hayek wrote:I would appreciate some collective wisdom on this. My wife and I live on the east coast in beautiful old home (130 yrs). We mostly love the house and completely love the location, but we hate the kitchen. We have spec'd out a kitchen remodel plan with a local remodeling firm, but I'm a bit hesitant to fork over my hard-earned cash for a project like this. See the specifications below.

We've only been in this house 1 year, and knew we'd need to do some improvements. I expect we won't be here for more than 10 years. Our goal is to have a really nice outcome, so we're not necessarily trying to cut corners. My habit is to generally not want to spend money, however I do think the outcome of this project would be a big win for our overall well-being. Am I just being a cheapskate? If you were in our shoes and "wanted" to do this, would you?

Note: I don't view this as an investment. It's an expense, as far as I'm concerned.

Project cost: $60k-$70k

Ages 32 and 33, single income, 2 kids.
Annual gross income is roughly $400k (+/- $100k).
Net worth: $975k (including this residence)
House value: $250k
Debt: 30yr mortgage with $190k balance

If you want more information, ask. Apologies if I'm not conforming to some proper BH question schema. This is my first post.
What do homes like your's with "$60k - $70k kitchens" sell for in your area? If the whole house cost $250k, its doubtful that you will recoup the $60-$70k investment. But you also should recoup some. Figure out what that is and that gives you your delta. Call it $30k for sake of argument. Then figure that you are staying for less than 10 years. Lets call it 7 years, again for sake of argument. Then you have:

$30,000 / 7 = $4285 per year = $357 per month

Is the new kitchen worth $357 (or whatever the real number is after your research) per month to you?
Stay the course. If you can't resist greed, and fear is proven to be 2x as strong, you are doomed as an investor.
stan1
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by stan1 »

You are making $400K/year and living in a $250K house. You are (almost) millionaires at 32/33 on one income with two kids. Of course you can spend $70K on a remodel, but I think in a 130 year old house you'd want to assume that the final number will be closer to $100K once you get done due to unexpected problems that pop up (plumbing, electrical, structural). It's best to do the invisible things first. What you don't want to do is put $70K into a kitchen only to find out you have to tear into it in a few years to replumb, rewire, or put in ducts. If the foundation needs work I'd do that before the kitchen.

You can afford to make the house into something you'll enjoy since you expect to be there for at least 10 more years. You do want to consider resale but you are in a situation where your family's enjoyment of the house can be a major contributor. Are there any other houses in the neighborhood that have been updated and what do they sell for? If the house is on a large piece of property, has a good location, or has other benefits that will appeal to people then I'd have minimal concern about resale.

I'm guessing you live in a very low cost of living area. You mentioned single income -- so is your wife a stay at home mom raising your kids? I'd say go along with what she wants to do on this decision. Since you describe the house as "beautiful" in a way it almost becomes your responsibility as its caretaker to preserve it and make sure it makes people happy for another 100+ years (especially since you have the resources to be a responsible custodian). I realize that might not be a very Boglehead philosophy (but then again most Bogleheads would never buy a 130 year old house).
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
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ResearchMed
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by ResearchMed »

We faced this type of issue, in an ~100 year old house (not quite, but almost there), but with the bathrooms.

We LOVE this house. It's called the "fairy tale house" or "Hansel & Gretel" house by some, and we've had taxi drivers get out to snap a photo (!?).
DH had been looking for several years, dismissing everything (yes, like in the fairy tale - this is too far, this one is too close, this one too big, this one too small), and then ... he found this one.
It makes him HAPPY. We still drive up (12 yrs and counting), and sit in the driveway and smile.

But the two main bathrooms were circa 1950, very closed-in feeling due to heavy archways over bathtubs "entry".
And we KEPT calling the plumber. Over and over.

So we decided to remodel, and yes, we splurged. We use those bathrooms every day, after all, and several times.
We spent ages choosing the stone tiling, especially for the master, but went a bit high end for the other bathroom, too.
The master bath cost a lot (although not so much given the much-more-expensive homes nearby, but that wasn't our home's price).

We ENJOY this every single day.
We never regretted a thing about it.

We also never expect to "get it back on resale".

We DID, however, make sure that we didn't do anything that would *interfere* with resale, anything that might be considered "quirky" by some other potential buyer.

If you can afford it, and it's used heavily every day, then enjoy it.

EDIT TO ADD: Regarding comment above about "what you'll find", yes, our contractor warned us that he simply could not tell how much of the piping might need to be replaced, and how far down/back, etc. We were prepared to spend the "semi-worst case" pricing he gave us, but that didn't occur, thank goodness.
And we've never called a plumber again, yet.

RM
investingdad
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by investingdad »

Hayek wrote:I would appreciate some collective wisdom on this. My wife and I live on the east coast in beautiful old home (130 yrs). We mostly love the house and completely love the location, but we hate the kitchen. We have spec'd out a kitchen remodel plan with a local remodeling firm, but I'm a bit hesitant to fork over my hard-earned cash for a project like this. See the specifications below.

We've only been in this house 1 year, and knew we'd need to do some improvements. I expect we won't be here for more than 10 years. Our goal is to have a really nice outcome, so we're not necessarily trying to cut corners. My habit is to generally not want to spend money, however I do think the outcome of this project would be a big win for our overall well-being. Am I just being a cheapskate? If you were in our shoes and "wanted" to do this, would you?

Note: I don't view this as an investment. It's an expense, as far as I'm concerned.

Project cost: $60k-$70k

Ages 32 and 33, single income, 2 kids.
Annual gross income is roughly $400k (+/- $100k).
Net worth: $975k (including this residence)
House value: $250k
Debt: 30yr mortgage with $190k balance

If you want more information, ask. Apologies if I'm not conforming to some proper BH question schema. This is my first post.
Without digging deeper into the finances, I'd say just pay the whole thing in cash. At some point doing work in your home is more about you living there and enjoying it and less about whether it conforms with the norm for the area.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

ResearchMed wrote:We ENJOY this every single day.
We never regretted a thing about it.

We also never expect to "get it back on resale".
This! We have an East Coast 100 yo home also. We renovated/added on a few times. We love the house and it gives us pleasure. In this mostly tasteless environment, the eventual purchaser will probably tear it down and build a McMansion that Tony Soprano would like. Not my problem.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by ResearchMed »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
ResearchMed wrote:We ENJOY this every single day.
We never regretted a thing about it.

We also never expect to "get it back on resale".
This! We have an East Coast 100 yo home also. We renovated/added on a few times. We love the house and it gives us pleasure. In this mostly tasteless environment, the eventual purchaser will probably tear it down and build a McMansion that Tony Soprano would like. Not my problem.
DH is threatening to refuse to sell to anyone whom he suspects of planning a tear-down.

A wonderfully wooded lot next door was sold about 1-2 years after we moved in here, and the owner on the other side and we tried to buy it. We offered to keep it in perpetuity and named for the recently deceased grandfather who owned tons more property elsewhere. This particular parcel was his pride and joy, with many "specimen trees" he had selected and planted over the decades.
But there just isn't much buildable land left in the area anymore.

Price? MORE than we had just paid for a similar sized lot... but our lot had a big house on it!

So... the trees were torn down, and a genuine McMansion is now there (no other "new" homes in sight).

I fear that a builder will offer us more than someone who is willing to keep up the maintenance on The Olde House.

We'll see...

RM
Iorek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Iorek »

I have started to realize that when we move out of our house, which hopefully won't be for 25-30+ years, it will be a tear down. Makes me a little sad to think about but I guess on other hand we don't have to worry about whether people like our decorating decisions. ;)

I think longtimelurker gave some good advice.
tibbitts
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by tibbitts »

I live in a 25 year old house and if I had your income and the ability to do all the work in a few days, I'd knock it down tomorrow and build a new one. Well, ok, I'd actually rather be in a slightly different location, but that's not the point, I'm talking about the quality of the house itself - and your house has another hundred years of rot and deterioration. I don't understand what's so great about old houses. House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building the same features into a new one.
Last edited by tibbitts on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

A neighbor two doors away sold her house a decade ago and asked the realtor who had purchased it, since she didn't recall meeting the buyer. The realtor told her that the buyer hadn't come into the house because he intended to tear it down. The owner, who had divorced someone whose name you would probably recognize and was not short of assets, said never mind -- I raised my kids in this house, and if he didn't have the common decency to at least look and see if the house could be renovated in a manner more suitable to his needs, he can't have it. She later sold to a nice couple who have renovated and updated the house; the rumor is that she sold for less than the original sales price.

We are hoping that when the time comes, we will find one buyer who appreciates the house. That said, if they don't like our landscaping (intentionally un-manicured but far from haphazard) or the house, well, it's theirs once they buy it.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
wilked
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by wilked »

Hayek wrote: We've only been in this house 1 year, and knew we'd need to do some improvements. I expect we won't be here for more than 10 years.
Ages 32 and 33, single income, 2 kids.
So you plan to move in 5-10 years, why is that? It seems odd to have bought the house less than a year ago but be ready to move that soon, especially when you bought well below your means.

My gut says you made the wrong decision and should have bought a more expensive home with the kitchen of your dreams already in place. I suggest doing modest renovations that will appease you somewhat and wait 5-10 years for that dream kitchen
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

tibbitts wrote:House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building it into a new one.
And you should see how much it costs to try to match 100 yo craftsmanship when renovating an older house. We had an architect draw up plans that, as much as possible, kept the old feel. We hired a contractor that appreciated what the house was. You can't get stucco like the old days. You can't get radiators, door knobs, doors, windows, etc. like the old days unless you want to spend a King's ransom. Having put a middle six digit amount into the house, if something isn't working well, it's nearly always the newer work rather than the original.

de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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bottlecap
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by bottlecap »

My initial thought was go for it - enjoy it, but a $70k kitchen remodel on a $250,000 home took me aback. If having a spectatular kitchen is worth it to you, I guess that's okay, but know that if you sold the place afterwards, you probably wouldn't get a third of that back.

JT
Topic Author
Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

Longtimelurker wrote: What do homes like your's with "$60k - $70k kitchens" sell for in your area? If the whole house cost $250k, its doubtful that you will recoup the $60-$70k investment. But you also should recoup some. Figure out what that is and that gives you your delta. Call it $30k for sake of argument. Then figure that you are staying for less than 10 years. Lets call it 7 years, again for sake of argument. Then you have:

$30,000 / 7 = $4285 per year = $357 per month

Is the new kitchen worth $357 (or whatever the real number is after your research) per month to you?
Thanks. Yes, this type of analysis has been helpful, but I'm not as optimistic as you on the recoup. Because of the age of the home, our already-reduced buyer pool will likely not want to pay much more than we paid... I'm guessing this $70k improvement is worth $10k on a resale at most. If I thought I could get $30k, I'd do it.
Iorek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Iorek »

bottlecap wrote:My initial thought was go for it - enjoy it, but a $70k kitchen remodel on a $250,000 home took me aback. If having a spectatular kitchen is worth it to you, I guess that's okay, but know that if you sold the place afterwards, you probably wouldn't get a third of that back.

JT
I admit I had somewhat this reaction. Having gone through a kitchen renovation I know they can be a lot more expensive than one expects, but does this involve a lot of structural renovation as well? Is there any sort of middle ground?
Last edited by Iorek on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by ResearchMed »

Who spends the most time in the kitchen?

How "bad" is the current kitchen?

If there would be a serious improvement in usage (time and especially enjoyment), that is probably a large proportion of hours, if someone is cooking (and cleaning up) for a family.

We spent much more than "necessary" on our bathrooms (we now each use one "for ourself" most of the time - totally spoiled!).
We don't regret a thing EXCEPT that we should have done it almost as soon as we moved in.
(Back then we had aggravation galore with tubs getting stopped up, again and again, and the plumber's bills weren't cheap in total, either.)

Only you can decide if there is a sufficient "Quality of Life" improvement for the money (as well as if you really can "afford it").

As long as you aren't trying to get back the "value" on re-sale, try not to worry about what others think - unless you are planning to take it all with you...
Life can be short.
(We could have afforded a home like this sooner, and now we wish we had done so - assuming DH had been able to find "the right place" sooner, that is. But we didn't start looking "sooner", that's what we regret.)

RM
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Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

stan1 wrote:I'm guessing you live in a very low cost of living area. You mentioned single income -- so is your wife a stay at home mom raising your kids? I'd say go along with what she wants to do on this decision. Since you describe the house as "beautiful" in a way it almost becomes your responsibility as its caretaker to preserve it and make sure it makes people happy for another 100+ years (especially since you have the resources to be a responsible custodian). I realize that might not be a very Boglehead philosophy (but then again most Bogleheads would never buy a 130 year old house).
Thanks, this was helpful. Stay-at-home, yes. You can probably guess what she wants--which is fine. The caretaker mentality was on our minds when we purchased, however at the end of the day, it requires me to spend much more than I'm comfortable doing and on something I feel is a want rather than a need. I'm a financial geek like most of the folks around here, and it's hard for me to quiet my penny-counting mind tendencies when it comes to decisions of the heart.
Rupert
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Rupert »

tibbitts wrote:I live in a 25 year old house and if I had your income and the ability to do all the work in a few days, I'd knock it down tomorrow and build a new one. Well, ok, I'd actually rather be in a slightly different location, but that's not the point, I'm talking about the quality of the house itself - and your house has another hundred years of rot and deterioration. I don't understand what's so great about old houses. House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building the same features into a new one.
Just not true. I was listening a story on NPR recently about how fire departments all over the country are lobbying for changes in building codes to require sprinkler systems in new residential construction. New houses have so many "composite" materials in them that they burn up faster than the fire department can get there.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

Let me just ask, since the house is 130 years old, and presumably loaded with good woodwork and floors and windows of that vintage, that the kitchen, if remodeled, respect the character of the house.

It shouldn't be like stepping from the house into a new galaxy. There are plenty of cabinet designs and setups that can be good and yet look like they belong in the house. Similarly appliances. Please don't plunk a 2014 appearing kitchen into a 1880s house.

For one thing, you will turn off future buyers who like old houses.
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
tibbitts wrote:House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building it into a new one.
And you should see how much it costs to try to match 100 yo craftsmanship when renovating an older house. We had an architect draw up plans that, as much as possible, kept the old feel. We hired a contractor that appreciated what the house was. You can't get stucco like the old days. You can't get radiators, door knobs, doors, windows, etc. like the old days unless you want to spend a King's ransom. Having put a middle six digit amount into the house, if something isn't working well, it's nearly always the newer work rather than the original.

de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum
You can't get woodwork or hardwood floors like the old days either. Someday look at a hundred year old oak floor and compare it to nowadays. Then take out your hankie and sniffle.
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Kosmo
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Kosmo »

No question I would do the remodel. It will improve the quality of life for whoever is in the kitchen for any significant time. And you clearly have the means to do work. (Also, if your wife is saying to do it, then you do it.) But definitely make sure that the "character" of the kitchen is in keeping with the rest of the house. You don't want to have a modern-looking kitchen when the rest of the house looks/feels it's age.

FWIW, I love old houses. Literally across the street from me a house built in the 1740s that's getting a major renovation to the kitchen, attic/storage, and HVAC system. And just down the road is a house built in the 1690s which has a brand new kitchen. Both are on the historic register and even interior improvements must be in keeping with the historic character of the building (as approved by the township building code enforcement and historical commission).
Topic Author
Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

wilked wrote:
Hayek wrote: We've only been in this house 1 year, and knew we'd need to do some improvements. I expect we won't be here for more than 10 years.
Ages 32 and 33, single income, 2 kids.
So you plan to move in 5-10 years, why is that? It seems odd to have bought the house less than a year ago but be ready to move that soon, especially when you bought well below your means.

My gut says you made the wrong decision and should have bought a more expensive home with the kitchen of your dreams already in place. I suggest doing modest renovations that will appease you somewhat and wait 5-10 years for that dream kitchen
This is an astute observation, and you might be right. I'm not willing to concede just yet, however. We looked at many nice, new or newish homes, but none of them felt right... they lacked a lot of intangibles and mostly didn't "feel like us" and we ended up deciding that we'd even feel a little embarrassed to own some of them due to their extravagance (other factors like lack of walk-ability in most modern developments played into the decision as well). You've hit on my personal bias though--do the minimal and then buy again or build in 5-10 years. Unfortunately, the minimal might leave a lot to be desired in the meantime. This is a very reasonable approach and it may win. Unfortunately I've found it's not very compelling.
wilked
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by wilked »

Can I ask why you need to move in 5-10 years?
Novine
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Novine »

"I don't understand what's so great about old houses. House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130."

I'm pretty confident that most houses that have made it to 130 years old, if properly maintained, will be around longer than many of the homes built in the last 25 years. As others have noted, the quality of materials in many older homes is far superior to most of what goes into modern homes. Poor quality homes of 130 years ago, for the most part, haven't made it to this point. The same will be true of most of the junk that's been built in the past 30 - 40 years. They won't wear well and because they don't have the architectural features and craftsmanship of older homes, they won't be of interest to future home buyers.
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Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

wilked wrote:Can I ask why you need to move in 5-10 years?
Sure... nothing imminent, but I expect any of the following could cause us to move, and I believe the mostly likely timeframe for any one of these is ballpark 10 years (in order of likelihood):
1) we don't have any family in the area and the fact that family is more important than career causes us to move away
2) while we loved living in an inspiring home, we've gained wisdom and a level of pragmatism that has us looking for something easier and more convenient
3) our aging parents require some form of care that require our presence elsewhere
4) one of my entrepreneurial endeavors sticks and causes us to relocate for the sake of the business
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ResearchMed
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by ResearchMed »

Hayek wrote:
wilked wrote:Can I ask why you need to move in 5-10 years?
Sure... nothing imminent, but I expect any of the following could cause us to move, and I believe the mostly likely timeframe for any one of these is ballpark 10 years (in order of likelihood):
1) we don't have any family in the area and the fact that family is more important than career causes us to move away
2) while we loved living in an inspiring home, we've gained wisdom and a level of pragmatism that has us looking for something easier and more convenient
3) our aging parents require some form of care that require our presence elsewhere
4) one of my entrepreneurial endeavors sticks and causes us to relocate for the sake of the business
Hmmm... your second point...

This is the first hint that maybe you aren't still loving your current home all that much.
Or is this point more of a "just in case our thinking changes in the future"?

Think long and hard about what is behind this comment, before you do indeed invest in a new kitchen.

If you really expect to stay here for up to 10 years and DO "love it", that's another story.

RM
Ldevelopment
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Ldevelopment »

Rupert wrote:
tibbitts wrote:I live in a 25 year old house and if I had your income and the ability to do all the work in a few days, I'd knock it down tomorrow and build a new one. Well, ok, I'd actually rather be in a slightly different location, but that's not the point, I'm talking about the quality of the house itself - and your house has another hundred years of rot and deterioration. I don't understand what's so great about old houses. House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building the same features into a new one.
Just not true. I was listening a story on NPR recently about how fire departments all over the country are lobbying for changes in building codes to require sprinkler systems in new residential construction. New houses have so many "composite" materials in them that they burn up faster than the fire department can get there.

I think this is a bad idea for building departments. Not only does this increase the cost pretty dramatically for the average homeowner, it introduces another issue of potential water damage issues. If the system were to malfunction it would be a disaster. I think perhaps a smarter approach would he to use more fire resistive materials for new construction that have a "min" rating to them. This already take place in portions of residential construction, but could be much further implemented.

In my area, the only homes that are required to have sprinklers are homes that are in more rural like settings away from fire stations. Or homes that are in densely wooded areas.
chuppi
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by chuppi »

bottlecap wrote:My initial thought was go for it - enjoy it, but a $70k kitchen remodel on a $250,000 home took me aback. If having a spectatular kitchen is worth it to you, I guess that's okay, but know that if you sold the place afterwards, you probably wouldn't get a third of that back.

JT
I agree. It is a lot of kitchen for the house.
I have some experience with remodel. I bought a condo end of 2010 and went through this dilemma for a few months. But finally ended up remodeling the kitchen and living room flooring. I am very happy with it. I don't think about the $ that I spent (not anywhere close your remodel cost though) on it anymore because I like it. I am glad that I didn't do a half hearted job.
Couple of things to bring the cost down
1. Shop around - Home depot wanted 8K just to reface the existing cabinets. A local store was able to put solid wood cabinets, granite, sink and faucet for around the same amount. There were other cheap cabinet stores that were willing to do all of it in 4-5K but I decided to go with quality.
2. See what you can do yourself if it is even possible. I installed the backslash myself. I installed the wooden flooring myself. I am planning to install lighting myself soon (didn't think it was important then. It will cost me less than 500$ for nice lighting). That saved me a lot of $$ and I am also proud of my work. My friends are astonished that I was able to pull off such a fine job.

Ask yourself can you live with the kitchen for the next 10years. If not remodel now. It would suck to remodel 4years from now. Just my 2cents
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Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

ResearchMed wrote: How "bad" is the current kitchen?
Usable, but doesn't make us want to spend time in it. Somewhat unsightly and... dingy.
ResearchMed wrote: We don't regret a thing EXCEPT that we should have done it almost as soon as we moved in.
This is one reason we're attacking this now instead of waiting.
ResearchMed wrote: Hmmm... your second point...

This is the first hint that maybe you aren't still loving your current home all that much.
Or is this point more of a "just in case our thinking changes in the future"?

Think long and hard about what is behind this comment, before you do indeed invest in a new kitchen.

If you really expect to stay here for up to 10 years and DO "love it", that's another story.

RM
I'm always willing to admit that I'm wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind. While I don't currently feel that second point is true, I feel like the naysayers must know something... and perhaps I'll eventually come around to their way of thinking. Perhaps even within my 10 year ballpark.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by ResearchMed »

Hayek wrote:
ResearchMed wrote: How "bad" is the current kitchen?
Usable, but doesn't make us want to spend time in it. Somewhat unsightly and... dingy.
ResearchMed wrote: We don't regret a thing EXCEPT that we should have done it almost as soon as we moved in.
This is one reason we're attacking this now instead of waiting.
ResearchMed wrote: Hmmm... your second point...

This is the first hint that maybe you aren't still loving your current home all that much.
Or is this point more of a "just in case our thinking changes in the future"?

Think long and hard about what is behind this comment, before you do indeed invest in a new kitchen.

If you really expect to stay here for up to 10 years and DO "love it", that's another story.

RM
I'm always willing to admit that I'm wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind. While I don't currently feel that second point is true, I feel like the naysayers must know something... and perhaps I'll eventually come around to their way of thinking. Perhaps even within my 10 year ballpark.
Okay, this makes sense.

One last question, assuming there is little likelihood of your moving too much sooner than 10 years.
Is there *anything* nearby that you could envision purchasing that would already have what you are looking for?
Given the cost of the improvements, IF you could find another home that already has what you'd want (or "close enough" to make everyone happy), that might work so that you wouldn't lose as much on re-sale. Sounds odd, but if you aren't likely to recoup the investment, there is more than one way to do that :shock:
And this other way might be a LOT less intrusive. Having a MAJOR kitchen remodel while living there is going to be unbelievably disruptive and also add money (think eating out a LOT, and assume both cost and especially TIME over-runs).

With bathroom renovations, if there is still a functional bathroom that is not torn to shreds, it's more manageable.

RM
eharri3
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by eharri3 »

We live in a 108 year old home with a remodeled kitchen that was done by previous owners. Extended to a little over double the original size, with a powder room built in and a deck off the sliding glass door. Several homes on our block are 100-plus years old and most of them at one point or another had two things done: The main bathroom was slightly enlarged and the kitchens were extended just like ours were. Because back in the day the priority was to put as many bedrooms as possible under one roof to accommodate 5-6 child families with grand parents or boarders, not to have eat-in kitchens and huge master baths with double vanities and separate tubs and showers like everyone wants now.

I can clearly see where my original kitchen ended and the remodeled one extended it. It would have originally been about about a 10x20 space with barely any storage room. Literally enough to cook and wash dishes and that's it. If yours is like ours was, it is from the days when family and guests congregated in living rooms and dining rooms and kitchens were purely utilitarian. Now we have a small island with granite countertops and 3 bar stools, another small table with a couple chairs, and our powder room so guests laying out on the deck don't have to go far to use the rest room. I could not imagine living with the old kitchen that this place used to have and think if you do it you will not regret it. Guests can hang out in there with us and talk while we cook and there's room for two people cooking at the same time to move around and get to everything they need without bumping into each other.

Will you get back everything you put into it? Probably not. But on the flip side remember that future buyers look for updated bathrooms and updated kitchens as a priority because those are the two most expensive things to remodel in a home. The majority of them will want that stuff already updated as part of a 'move-in-ready' package because they don't want to buy a home and then have to put 50 or 75K more into it. If those two things aren't satisfactory they will move on without making an offer and your pool of potential buyers will be limited to people who want to pony up for a home purchase and then spend many thousands more to make it exactly how they want it. So do it now and have an easier time selling when you eventually do or don't do it and run the risk that you'll have a smaller pool of buyers who will want to low ball you because the kitchen needs re-doing.
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patriciamgr2
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by patriciamgr2 »

These are just a few thoughts from me & a friend of mine who renovates houses for rental.

Check local real estate listings to determine (1) what amenities are selling--in your area & in your house's price range; and (2) what style of renovations sell. Before you commit to a renovation, run the plans past a realtor you trust to determine whether the "improvements" increase your home's value at all. Try to avoid decreasing the value.

in a house as old as yours, many buyers are sensitive to whether the improvements are done in a manner which complements the original house--doing that tends to be more expensive than a standard update. Even if you stick to the plans you approved (ie NO change orders), allow enough excess cash for at least a 25% upside contingency for the unexpected. Be sure your GC's estimates factor in any improvements which will be required to meet current housing code--not just the pretty stuff.

If you're doing a quick fix (reface/replace cabinets/new flooring/new appliances), just budget for eating out & set up a makeshift kitchen near a sink. If you're doing a remodel (e.g. knocking down walls (vs. just cutting holes in sheetrock); moving gas/electric/plumbing), I personally would not plan to live in a remodel with young children. [Adults living in is not as big of a problem, IMO, because the stay-at-home can just go hang out somewhere when the noise/air becomes unpleasant. With kids, everything is more complicated (for example, I'm not sure they'd keep dust masks on, etc.) Even if work is confined to one area in the home, dust goes everywhere no matter how well workers seal off the area with plastic. At various points in the process, HVAC, water & electricity usually get turned off]. Have both you and spouse lived through a renovation? I really love the process, & have "lived in" during kitchen remodels, but it's like camping. People who are very sensitive to how their home looks (which often goes along with wanting to remodel) need to realize: your house will never be clean while it's being remodeled. If you have friends going through a remodel, ask if you & the kids can spend a few hours while the workers are there so that you understand what it's like.

If you decide to do the renovation, make a pact that there will be no adult whining; you both need to believe that the end result will more than justify the pain. It may be more expensive & more time-consuming than you imagine--don't think you can plan your way around that. Even professionals run into unexpected problems; the best project management skills in the business (& you do need to manage the project with your gc) can't predict or prevent what will happen on an old house remodel. I've seen projects go better than expected; usually, however, the opposite occurs. That doesn't necessarily mean the workers are cheating you.

Work on your house goes faster if you live elsewhere, but one of you is available instantly to answer questions & has the ability/willingness to make quick decisions. Extended-stay hotels are expensive. Short-term rentals can either be in less than desirable neighborhoods or may be more expensive and there's often an issue about the lease ending before your renovation does. If you have somewhere to live inexpensively for an indefinite time, that will help the process a lot!

Because your renovations will be 10 years old when you plan to sell, many buyers who value up-to-date improvements will consider them dated then. I will restate what other posters have said: Treat it as an expense; assume that in worst case, you'll recover none of the money. Calculate what the money you spend would have earned if invested & what that would buy you in terms of your dream home in the future. If a new kitchen now is worth it to both of you, spend the money. It's possible you'll increase the value of your home's resale, but don't count on it. [In my experience, people who claim they made money on renovations don't factor out general price appreciation in their neighborhood from their sales price. The renovation industry plays along with this fuzzy thinking by talking about a "high x% return" on projects when the numbers obviously indicate a loss. If you invest $1 and get sixty cents back, that's not a return!]

It's very location specific, but (in my experience) only "category changers" return anything on investment. Obvious one: adding a master suite to a 2BR/1BA to turn it into a 3BR/2BA. If many homes in your area are alike, and if one improvement has been made in many of them, that's often a good indicator of market demand. Cosmetic redo of kitchen surfaces, new appliances & (maybe) widening access to a dining room from a kitchen--if done properly in keeping with the architecture --can be close to a break-even in good markets & at the very least make a house much easier to sell. Decluttering, cleaning, painting & modest landscape improvements are generally the only reliable money-makers. At $1MM plus price points (in my local market), the rules change--obviously.

Good Luck. I really don't mean to be discouraging, although in looking at houses I often feel that some families' goals could have been achieved with more of a facelift than a remodel. Whatever you choose, I really hope this project goes smoothly for you and your family!
dolphinsaremammals
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by dolphinsaremammals »

eharri3 wrote: Will you get back everything you put into it? Probably not. But on the flip side remember that future buyers look for updated bathrooms and updated kitchens as a priority because those are the two most expensive things to remodel in a home. The majority of them will want that stuff already updated as part of a 'move-in-ready' package because they don't want to buy a home and then have to put 50 or 75K more into it. If those two things aren't satisfactory they will move on without making an offer and your pool of potential buyers will be limited to people who want to pony up for a home purchase and then spend many thousands more to make it exactly how they want it. So do it now and have an easier time selling when you eventually do or don't do it and run the risk that you'll have a smaller pool of buyers who will want to low ball you because the kitchen needs re-doing.
You're ignoring the buyers who love old houses and will look at a kitchen/bathroom remodeling that does not respect the age of the house, and say, They ruined the house! The poor house! and walk out the door.
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Watty
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Watty »

One thing to remember is that with that major of remodel there will be several months where you will likely have to move out for at least part of the time and live in a construction zone for the rest. You will l likely need to also move out a lot of your belongings since they will almost certainly be dealing with lead paint and probably asbestos too and that dust can travel a long way even if they are careful.

In 20/20 hindsight it would have been better to have done any major remodeling like that before you moved in.

It might not be the most cost effective way to but you could afford to move to a different house that does not need major remodeling or to get any needed remodeling done before you move in.

As others have said, don’t expect to get a lot of your money back when see the house in ten years since along with the typical low percentage return on home improvements, your “new” kitchen will be ten year old then.
edge
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by edge »

I wonder if that '10 years old' comment is as valid as it used to be. The high end kitchens being put in now seem to be so far beyond what was done in the past it is hard to imagine them getting 'old' as quickly and as ugly as the old style kitchens.

I think my kitchen is 15 years old and looks more or less the same as what gets put in today...
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patriciamgr2
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by patriciamgr2 »

In response to Edge's comments: my best guess is that the more "on trend" your kitchen remodel is, the faster it goes out of style. It sounds like you went with a more classic style that fit your architecture--those will look good for longer. In my local area, there was mass hysteria a few years back where--judging by kitchen remodels--everyone thought they lived either in Asia or in Tuscany. those kitchens look dated--the current equivalent of avocado green appliances!
Rupert
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Rupert »

Don't forget that old houses are full of old lead paint and/or asbestos. Asbestos was sometimes mixed into plaster and joint compound. Those bumpy ceilings that people hate so much these days also often contain it as well. (I shudder every time someone tells me they just had their ceilings "scraped." Almost no one tests for asbestos before doing that.) For this reasons, if your kids are young, you'll probably have to move out of the house entirely while extensive renovations are being done. At the very least, have their blood lead levels tested before, during, and after and hire a licensed lead/asbestos abatement contractor.
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HomerJ
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by HomerJ »

dolphinsaremammals wrote:You can't get woodwork or hardwood floors like the old days either. Someday look at a hundred year old oak floor and compare it to nowadays. Then take out your hankie and sniffle.
Hankie is good to protect your airways from the lead paint and asbestos as well.... :)

Edit: Ah, already mentioned right above this post.
edge
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by edge »

patriciamgr2 wrote:In response to Edge's comments: my best guess is that the more "on trend" your kitchen remodel is, the faster it goes out of style. It sounds like you went with a more classic style that fit your architecture--those will look good for longer. In my local area, there was mass hysteria a few years back where--judging by kitchen remodels--everyone thought they lived either in Asia or in Tuscany. those kitchens look dated--the current equivalent of avocado green appliances!

Ya, good point. My kitchen matches the rest of the house. LOL at your Asia/Tuscany comment, classic.
goodenoughinvestor
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by goodenoughinvestor »

To the OP:

You can definitely afford the renovation so-- make your wife happy. You will be receiving dividends on that for far longer than ten years.
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Meg77
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Meg77 »

I'm kind of with you - $70K is a lot to spend in your situation, especially on a $250K home. And that's even assuming you DO have a 12 month emergency fund plus $70K lying around. But considering the sole income, the two kids, and everything else...I have a feeling that $70K could be really better utilized elsewhere. However this is not an all or none proposition from the sounds of it. You mention the kitchen is "dingy" and ugly - which are cosmetic concerns. If you aren't moving plumbing or changing the layout you should be able to accomplish a very nice makeover for much less than $70K. I'm no remodling expert, but it seems maybe one or two new appliances, a fresh coat of paint and maybe some new backsplash and countertops could go a long way? Take the thing your wife hates the most (no dishwasher? ugly paint on the cabinets? cracks around the sink?) and upgrade that first.
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dumbbunny
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by dumbbunny »

I agree with Meg77.
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edge
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by edge »

Heh, how does a guy making 300-500k not have a dishwasher? My guess is that the kitchen is small (galley? UGH), dark, and probably is so old it cannot actually be completely cleaned of grease/etc deposits.

Sometimes the layout of these older kitchens are just so awful that appliances cannot really be replaced in-place.

That being said. I am sure that 70k is on the higher end of things and there is probably a middle ground of some sort.
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gunn_show
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by gunn_show »

edge wrote:Heh, how does a guy making 300-500k not have a dishwasher? My guess is that the kitchen is small (galley? UGH), dark, and probably is so old it cannot actually be completely cleaned of grease/etc deposits.

Sometimes the layout of these older kitchens are just so awful that appliances cannot really be replaced in-place.

That being said. I am sure that 70k is on the higher end of things and there is probably a middle ground of some sort.
between your's and Meg's replies, it makes me think of HGTV episodes of Flip or Flop, and his kitchen must be old-school galley type and he wants to knock walls and relocate plumbing, etc., which is giving him the high project cost. It would be helpful to know what the 70k is paying for, as that is an extreme makeover. I just bought a new (old, 1960s) house that is pretty original top to bottom, I cannot even fit a full dinner plate in the sink it is so small (but it's cast iron!!), and want to redo the kitchen in next few years. Estimates from contractor/carpenter friends are in $15-30k range depending on level of work. So 70k must include walls, pipe relocation, demo etc. Perhaps a top to bottom replacement can "polish the turd" for a while till you move, at less than half the cost. Spending 70k on a place you will leave in short time, seems too steep, and as many noted, will never be recouped in resell. But I feel your pain on bad kitchens, and wish you best of luck in your decision.
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Aptenodytes
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Aptenodytes »

You have to choose between being a cheapskate and having a nice kitchen. Some people like being cheap, but it comes with a price (e.g. bad kitchens).

If I were you I'd just pay cash for the remodel out of the emergency fund and not sweat it.
Mingus
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Mingus »

Hayek wrote: We have spec'd out a kitchen remodel plan with a local remodeling firm
I only want to comment on having a 130 year old house you might want to be working with an architect/designer who specializes in historic homes.

There are color choices and materials that will work better for your home than others. This way ten years from now, or 25 years from now the remodel job won't look so 2014.

For example, a bamboo floor in the kitchen would be out of place in the house.
wilked
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by wilked »

Maybe post a photo of the kitchen ?
tibbitts
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by tibbitts »

Rupert wrote:
tibbitts wrote:I live in a 25 year old house and if I had your income and the ability to do all the work in a few days, I'd knock it down tomorrow and build a new one. Well, ok, I'd actually rather be in a slightly different location, but that's not the point, I'm talking about the quality of the house itself - and your house has another hundred years of rot and deterioration. I don't understand what's so great about old houses. House technology has advanced a lot in 25 years, not to mention 130. It would cost a huge amount to retrofit today's safety and energy efficiency into an old house vs. building the same features into a new one.
Just not true. I was listening a story on NPR recently about how fire departments all over the country are lobbying for changes in building codes to require sprinkler systems in new residential construction. New houses have so many "composite" materials in them that they burn up faster than the fire department can get there.
And many old houses from various eras have crumpled up newspaper insulation, lead paint, asbestos flooring, dangerously inadequate electrical systems, termite damage, cracked and leaky foundations, non-fire-retardant/hail-resistant shingles, single-pane windows, and lack framing reinforcements or safe rooms for hurricane/tornado resistance.

Obviously it's possible to completely rebuild a home such that only some remnants of the original remains, and restore/replace the rest in a cosmetically-compatible manner, and still call it a 100/200/300-year old house. But it would be like doing a restoration of a classic car, where you have to replace almost all the parts: it's a hobby activity, not something practical.
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Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

patriciamgr2 wrote: Good Luck. I really don't mean to be discouraging, although in looking at houses I often feel that some families' goals could have been achieved with more of a facelift than a remodel. Whatever you choose, I really hope this project goes smoothly for you and your family!
Thanks for this response. Your information is helpful, and sobering. A couple notes: we're not knocking down walls--I think you'd characterize this as a (significant) facelift. New flooring/counters/sinks also a new island and some new cabinetry. I don't expect any return out of this which is the main reason I have a hard time justifying the expense.
The information on the duration and special challenges with children is helpful. I've considered that we might need to find temporary housing, but the expense of that seems small compared to the overall price tag so I haven't given it much thought. Thanks again for your insight.
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Hayek
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Re: Kitchen Remodel... Or Not?

Post by Hayek »

edge wrote:Heh, how does a guy making 300-500k not have a dishwasher? My guess is that the kitchen is small (galley? UGH), dark, and probably is so old it cannot actually be completely cleaned of grease/etc deposits.

Sometimes the layout of these older kitchens are just so awful that appliances cannot really be replaced in-place.

That being said. I am sure that 70k is on the higher end of things and there is probably a middle ground of some sort.
I hope I can find this middle ground. The challenge is we're replacing the floor, and if we're replacing the floor, we need to pull the cabinets, and if we're pulling them then.... etc etc etc. The conversation usually ends with "Guess we might as well do it all now."
I'll be thinking about this middle ground a bit more.
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