america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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pablolo
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america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by pablolo »

hi. I recently purchased a America the beautiful pass. I am looking for input from fellow bogle heads about unique off the beaten path discoveries that you have explored across the united states. thak you
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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Tuned in.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by jlawrence01 »

pablolo wrote:hi. I recently purchased a America the beautiful pass. I am looking for input from fellow bogle heads about unique off the beaten path discoveries that you have explored across the united states. thak you
Elko, NV area

Lemoille Canyon in the Ruby Mountains. One of the most beautiful mountain scenery.

On the other side of the mountains, are the Ruby Meadows, a natural wetlands run by the Forest Service. It is one of the most remote locations in the Lower 48 managed by the Forest Service.

There are thousand of locations to explore. The American the Beautiful Pass is one of the great values.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by whaleknives »

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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by likegarden »

Cape Cod National Sea Shore. I and my family visit that with my $10 Senior Pass.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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It's a big country. You're gonna need to give me some more parameters.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Peter Foley »

You don't need a National Parks pass for the Boundary Water Canoe area in Northeastern Minnesota, but you might need one for parts of Voyagers National Park in North Central Minnesota. Both are remote locations with back country camping. The BWCA is canoe only and a little more rustic than Voyagers. To get the most out of Voyagers you need a boat. Small houseboats are available for rental if that appeals to you. For both locations the best fishing is in June. Fewer fish (and bugs) in July and August.

If you decide to try one of these let me know. I grew up on the edge of Voyagers NP and am also familiar with parts of the BWCA.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Random Poster »

Black Canyon of the Gunnison.

Navajo National Monument--if you find that sort of place interesting. Better than Mesa Verde in my view (I don't like crowds, particularly in national parks/monuments).

Pipe Springs, Agate Fossil Beds, and Whitman Mission were all very educational.

Just get a National Parks/Monuments/Historic Sites map and go to any of them that you've never really heard of before. Good way to learn about the country and avoid the masses.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by pablolo »

How about waterfalls, swimming spots and hotsprings and minral springs?
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

Moki Dugway in Southeast Utah close to Monument Valley and Valley of the Gods.
Youtube vids of Moki Dugway
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=moki+dugway

If in Moab, UT, you will no doubt be visiting Arches NP and Canyonlands NP but you will also enjoy Dead Horse Point State Park (just outside of Islands in the Sky area of Canyonlands NP), Fisher Towers (BLM), Corona Arch (BLM). Make some time to take some of the scenic drives - UTAH 128, Utah 279.

We had fun in Little Wild Horse Canyon, our first visit to a slot canyon. It is very close to Goblin Valley State Park about 2hrs west of Moab.
http://www.climb-utah.com/SRS/lwh.htm

The Wave Coyote Buttes. Permits required (reservations taken months in advance but may be able to get permit as walk-in at kanab ranger station) :
http://www.utah.com/playgrounds/the_wave.htm

The drives between the parks are incredibly beautiful. Make sure you drive Utah 12 (Torrey to Esclante and Escalante to Red Canyon).

We travelled with our dog and we had a blast visiting BLM and Forest service areas because they are more dog friendly. National Parks only allow dogs to go where cars can go so no hiking with your dog.

We had an annual pass which we used to visit 20 NPs last year. If age 62+, the senior pass is $10 for lifetime pass and you'll get 50% discount on camping at federal sites.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by whaleknives »

Peter Foley wrote:You don't need a National Parks pass for the Boundary Water Canoe area . . .
Peter - pablolo's America the Beautiful pass will provide a discount on some user fees charged by the National Forest Service for the BWCA. Unfortunately, there is also a special recreation permit fee for the wilderness that is not covered.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

I spend a lot of time in the National Parks. [OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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DSInvestor wrote:
The Wave Coyote Buttes. Permits required (reservations taken months in advance but may be able to get permit as walk-in at kanab ranger station) :
http://www.utah.com/playgrounds/the_wave.htm
.
I thought he was asking for little known places. If I happened to draw out a pass to The Wave, I'd sell it. People are so anxious to do that hike that they start at 2 pm in August despite being 65, 100 lbs overweight, and diabetic. Most, but not all, of them make it back to the parking lot. I bet there's a pretty good black market for that permit!

I don't think you need a parks pass to go though, but I might be wrong. It's been a while since I was down there.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

pablolo wrote:hi. I recently purchased a America the beautiful pass. I am looking for input from fellow bogle heads about unique off the beaten path discoveries that you have explored across the united states. thak you
The secret to off the beaten path discoveries isn't going to the less visited parks. It's about going to the places in the really cool parks that few people go due to lack of time, energy, and ability.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

DSInvestor wrote: We had fun in Little Wild Horse Canyon, our first visit to a slot canyon. It is very close to Goblin Valley State Park about 2hrs west of Moab.
http://www.climb-utah.com/SRS/lwh.htm
I'm pretty sure you don't need a pass to go here. But if you want to see the Chamber of the Basilisk, you'll need to pony up a few bucks to get into the State (not national) park.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by letsgobobby »

It's true you can get into the parks after hours without showing your pass, but you are still supposed to have purchased one. Some parks give you a paper receipt valid for 7 days that you tape to your windshield, and they check your receipt upon exit. So to avoid paying you'd have to go in *and* out after hours. And there's the whole bit about our national parks having billions of dollars of deferred maintenance and closed visitor centers due to a perpetual underfunding problem, which always makes me glad to pay my fair share for these most beautiful places on earth.

The reason the America the Beautiful pass went from $50 to $80 a few years ago is because it now covers trailhead parking and admission to national forests, national wildlife refuges, and BLM lands as well. Not every region requires passes for national forest parking but the Pacific Northwest does, and I recall maybe the Angeles national forest did in SoCal when I lived there. Anyway, we hike a ton in the forests and a day pass would be $5 (in fact, I used mine today, and three times last weekend); and we go to Olympic and Rainier each several times a year so we definitely get our money's worth. Beyond that we donate to the National Parks foundation and several local Washington or Pacific Northwest public lands non-profits, so we see the pass as an additional vote of support, and a really awesome deal to boot, not really a burden.

Off the beaten path:

- Big Bend NP in Texas - huge place, hardly anyone there, pretty neat hiking but you may have to lug your water.
- North Cascades NP in Washington - despite being an immense place and just outside of Seattle, there are only 20,000 visitors per year because there are no roads to it. You drive and park in forest or NRA land, then hike to park land. If you're a backpacker you will find oodles of waterfalls in remote areas that take 1-2 days to get to. One gorgeous valley near Mt. Whatcom we called "Valley of the waterfalls" because there were literally dozens of 1000-2000 foot waterfalls just streaming off the canyons all around.
- backpack the Grand Canyon. They say 95% of visitors never get more than 200 feet below the rim. Do a 4-5 day backpack from somewhere on the western rim back toward the Bright Angel trail on the Tonto, and you'll see a side of the Canyon few ever will. It's a magical place in the evenings.
- Look for wilderness areas in the national forests for 'off the beaten path' trails. For example Mt Rainier is usually very busy but the adjacent Tatoosh and Glacier View wildernesses have the exact same views and literally no one on the trails.
- one of our secret favorite places is Great Basion National Park outside Ely, Nevada. Not near anything, but it's an island of alpine bliss in the middle the Great Basin desert. Plus there's this funky little old gambling town of Ely near the base, with a historic old hotel and casino that provided plenty of atmosphere.
- if you specifically want waterfalls then check out "waterfall country" of the Gifford Pinchot national forest in Southwest Washington and the Columbia River Gorge nearby. We have hundreds of waterfalls around every corner, and most of them are just local secrets (excluding the big ones like Multnomah, Wallace, etc.). I took my son on an 8 mile backpack last weekend and we ran into a half dozen waterfalls up to 150 feet high. No one outside an hour's drive knows anything about these places.

And don't write off the famous places just because they're famous; they're famous for a reason, namely, they're really gorgeous. Yosemite valley is a cliché but the first time you come through the tunnel and stare at El Capitan and Bridalveil falls and Half Dome, you just might cry.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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EmergDoc wrote:I spend a lot of time in the National Parks. Here's a little known secret.

You don't need a pass to get in.

I'm not kidding.

All you need is the willingness to either arrive before or after dark.

They don't man those booths 24/7.

I bet I only pay about a third of the time. Since the pass went up from $50 (I think it's $80 now), I simply don't go to the National Parks enough to buy one despite going a half dozen or more times a year. And most of the time I go and the booth is manned, I'm with somebody who happened to buy one.

So if I were you, I'd go to the National Park, THEN buy a pass if necessary. You might find you really don't need one very often at all.
Reading this makes me want to throw up. I would never try to stiff my HONEST doctor. Are you also double billing Medicare?
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

EmergDoc wrote:I spend a lot of time in the National Parks. Here's a little known secret.

You don't need a pass to get in.

I'm not kidding.

All you need is the willingness to either arrive before or after dark.

They don't man those booths 24/7.

I bet I only pay about a third of the time. Since the pass went up from $50 (I think it's $80 now), I simply don't go to the National Parks enough to buy one despite going a half dozen or more times a year. And most of the time I go and the booth is manned, I'm with somebody who happened to buy one.

So if I were you, I'd go to the National Park, THEN buy a pass if necessary. You might find you really don't need one very often at all.
Say it ain't so, Joe!

I've experienced this but I can't believe you, of all people, wrote this. IMO, at $80 the annual pass is a cheap price to pay for some of the most beautiful areas that you'll ever see. NPs are a national treasure. I've seen people pay more than $80 on one family outing to the movies.

Sure you may not see anyone at the gate if you enter early, say to get some photos at sunrise, but the right thing to do is to pay for a day pass or other pass while in the park or on the way out.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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letsgobobby wrote:And don't write off the famous places just because they're famous; they're famous for a reason, namely, they're really gorgeous. Yosemite valley is a cliché but the first time you come through the tunnel and stare at El Capitan and Bridalveil falls and Half Dome, you just might cry.
There's so much to see in Yosemite. For my friends who prefer short hikes, I like to recommend Sentinel Dome and Taft Point.

Taft Point:
Image
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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EmergDoc wrote:I spend a lot of time in the National Parks. Here's a little known secret.

You don't need a pass to get in.

I'm not kidding.

All you need is the willingness to either arrive before or after dark.

They don't man those booths 24/7.

I bet I only pay about a third of the time. Since the pass went up from $50 (I think it's $80 now), I simply don't go to the National Parks enough to buy one despite going a half dozen or more times a year. And most of the time I go and the booth is manned, I'm with somebody who happened to buy one.

So if I were you, I'd go to the National Park, THEN buy a pass if necessary. You might find you really don't need one very often at all.

Wow. I thought I was cheap :-)
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Ldevelopment »

Just a thought:

My brother-in-law who worked for a movie theater when he was in college
told me that in addition to movie ticket prices, the average family spent $40.00 in concessions.

I'd say $80 to visit some of the most beautiful places on earth is a pretty good deal.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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If you were "supposed" to buy a pass they'd ask for it on the way out. Or leave a box saying "leave your $25 here and leave the pass on your windshield." (lots of fee areas work this way.) Or a sign saying, "Nobody here right now, please pay on your way out."

None of them do that. The park service has apparently made a conscious decision that for the few people who come in after dark, it isn't worth the trouble or expense to staff the booth. Lots of times I come in before daylight and leave after dark. Exactly what should I do with my $25, mail it to the treasury? Besides, I don't get any service, directions, maps etc. There should be a nighttime discount! :)

I'm not talking about just a single park. This is how they all seem to work as far as I can tell.

Want to know another freebie with the National parks? Most of them are free even during the daytime. Only 133 of the 401 parks charge a fee at all. Even those 133 have lots of free days. Here's this year's list:

January 20
Martin Luther King Jr. Day
February 15-17
Presidents Day weekend

April 19-20
opening weekend of National Park Week

August 25
National Park Service Birthday

September 27
National Public Lands Day

November 11
Veterans Day

My point is that the amount of times I go to a National Park, during daylight hours, not on a free day, and not with someone else with an annual pass are so limited it isn't worth the $80. I'll just pay $25 each time. Apparently that's the equivalent of fraudulently billing Medicare to some of you.

I suggest the next time you go into a park before dawn you just tape a $20 and a $5 to the window of the booth. I'm sure it'll make it's way to the treasury.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by cleosdad »

EmergDoc wrote:If you were "supposed" to buy a pass they'd ask for it on the way out. Or leave a box saying "leave your $25 here and leave the pass on your windshield." (lots of fee areas work this way.) Or a sign saying, "Nobody here right now, please pay on your way out."

None of them do that. The park service has apparently made a conscious decision that for the few people who come in after dark, it isn't worth the trouble or expense to staff the booth. Lots of times I come in before daylight and leave after dark. Exactly what should I do with my $25, mail it to the treasury? Besides, I don't get any service, directions, maps etc. There should be a nighttime discount! :)

I'm not talking about just a single park. This is how they all seem to work as far as I can tell.

Want to know another freebie with the National parks? Most of them are free even during the daytime. Only 133 of the 401 parks charge a fee at all. Even those 133 have lots of free days. Here's this year's list:

January 20
Martin Luther King Jr. Day
February 15-17
Presidents Day weekend

April 19-20
opening weekend of National Park Week

August 25
National Park Service Birthday

September 27
National Public Lands Day

November 11
Veterans Day

My point is that the amount of times I go to a National Park, during daylight hours, not on a free day, and not with someone else with an annual pass are so limited it isn't worth the $80. I'll just pay $25 each time. Apparently that's the equivalent of fraudulently billing Medicare to some of you.

I suggest the next time you go into a park before dawn you just tape a $20 and a $5 to the window of the booth. I'm sure it'll make it's way to the treasury.
Are you kidding me? You don't get any service or directions? Are you in grade school? Have you not enjoyed the outdoors or the price to maintain the area? A map? Maybe a free lunch? A free guided tour? None of them Have a box? Most are free during the daytime? Do you live in Russia? Please do not come to Colorado. We have beautiful state and National Parks like Rocky Mountain National Park. They are manned during the day. I know because I was just there. We have yearly passes for both that WE PAID FOR. We do not condone FREELOADING. I am now going to take a hot shower.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

Procedures vary from park to park. Here's an example from Big Bend National Park about arriving after hours:
http://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/after_hours.htm
Big Bend is very remote; it is not unusual for visitors to arrive after normal business hours. Park entrances are always open, but entrance fee stations and visitor centers may be closed before you arrive.

Visitors who arrive after hours are required to pay the entrance fee or show an applicable pass at a park visitor center in the morning. A valid receipt will be issued to display on your windshield.
I happen to arrive at the entrance to Big Bend just before they were finishing for the day. I showed my pass and was grateful to able to chat with the Ranger for tips on where to camp, hikes and scenic drives. It was May and he recommended camping at Chisos which was excellent and close to great trails. He pasted the receipt on my windshield. I don't know what would happen if a Ranger came across a car without the valid receipt. Big Bend seemed to have lots more law enforcement than other parks. May have something to do with its location on the Mexican border.

IMO, $80 is a cheap price to pay to guarantee (for a year) that you're in compliance no matter what time you enter or leave the National Parks. Even cheaper if you're:
-disabled (free annual pass),
-military and dependents of military -army, navy,air force, marines, coast guard, reserves, national guard. (free annual pass)
-age 62 ($10 for lifetime pass).
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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cleosdad wrote: Are you kidding me? You don't get any service or directions? Are you in grade school? Have you not enjoyed the outdoors or the price to maintain the area? A map? Maybe a free lunch? A free guided tour? None of them Have a box? Most are free during the daytime? Do you live in Russia? Please do not come to Colorado. We have beautiful state and National Parks like Rocky Mountain National Park. They are manned during the day. I know because I was just there. We have yearly passes for both that WE PAID FOR. We do not condone FREELOADING. I am now going to take a hot shower.
I hope you enjoyed your shower. I do believe I write a check every quarter to the treasury that covers the National parks operational costs. In fact, I write a check every year to my state government that covers the National Parks operational costs when the Federal government decides to shut down. However, my question is what you think I should do about my next two visits to a National Park.

Visit # 1- A descent of Kolob Creek with the IMA exit. This trip begins at 5 am and goes until after dark. I will never get within 30 miles of an entrance booth. Even if I decided to drive those 30 miles to pay somebody, there wouldn't be anyone there to take my money.

Visit # 2 - A one day ascent of the Grand Teton. We'll go through the booth at 2 am and back through it at 9 pm that same day. What would you like me to do with my $25?

How about the time I flew into Denali National Park? The nearest "pay booth" was a 4 hour drive away.

The reason they give you a receipt isn't because you have to have a receipt to be in the national park. It's so if you leave and want to come back you don't have to pay again.

I found another way to get into the park for free: Individuals 15 and under can walk in free.

P.S. No one is manning RMNP booths at 3 am either. You put a Ranger there (or even a little dropbox), I'll gladly pay. Until then, I'll assume it's free if you come early enough.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

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DSInvestor wrote:Procedures vary from park to park. Here's an example from Big Bend National Park about arriving after hours:
http://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/after_hours.htm
Big Bend is very remote; it is not unusual for visitors to arrive after normal business hours. Park entrances are always open, but entrance fee stations and visitor centers may be closed before you arrive.

Visitors who arrive after hours are required to pay the entrance fee or show an applicable pass at a park visitor center in the morning. A valid receipt will be issued to display on your windshield.
I happen to arrive at the entrance to Big Bend just before they were finishing for the day. I showed my pass and was grateful to able to chat with the Ranger for tips on where to camp, hikes and scenic drives. It was May and he recommended camping at Chisos which was excellent and close to great trails. He pasted the receipt on my windshield. I don't know what would happen if a Ranger came across a car without the valid receipt. Big Bend seemed to have lots more law enforcement than other parks. May have something to do with its location on the Mexican border.
Interesting. I can't find anything like that for any of the parks I go to regularly. Those who are extremely upset about my occasional "free visit" can console themselves that I usually pay far more than $25 in camping, reservation, and permit fees with each visit.

People think I'm somehow "sneaking in" to avoid fees when in reality I was commenting that there is frequently no one present to collect any fees at the times I tend to arrive at and leave National Parks. It's not that it's not worth $80 (since I spent far more than that in gas to get there and back) nor that it is going to make me go broke to buy one. There's no one at the booth (if there is a booth at all for the entrance you're using). There's no drop box. As near as I can tell, there is no requirement to have a pass to be in the park (Big Bend is apparently different), merely an entrance fee if you choose to drive through a booth during daylight hours.

If that is somehow illegal, unethical, immoral etc. I guess I'm guilty as charged. Surprised so many people care so much more than the park service seems to. Maybe they could volunteer to man the booths.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by letsgobobby »

EmergDoc wrote:. However, my question is what you think I should do about my next two visits to a National Park.
I think you should buy an America the Beautiful Pass. :sharebeer

http://www.nps.gov/grte/planyourvisit/f ... ations.htm
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

letsgobobby wrote:
EmergDoc wrote:. However, my question is what you think I should do about my next two visits to a National Park.
I think you should buy an America the Beautiful Pass. :sharebeer

http://www.nps.gov/grte/planyourvisit/f ... ations.htm
Okay, fine. You install a booth at Kolob or talk someone into manning the Teton booth and I'll buy one. Actually, I probably won't. I'm on both of those trips with someone who has an America the Beautiful Pass already.

Now that I think about it, I think we did pay at RMNP. Our first day we drove in at noon, so one of us must have had a pass or we bought one.

I think their policy is just because 99% of visitors come in at least once between 8 and 5 during their visit. I just tend to use the parks differently than most. I miss out on a lot of shuttle buses too...
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

I agree that gates aren't manned as much nowadays. I spent a 4 days in Glacier NP in May and the gates were only manned on Sat/Sun. I had a pass so I wasn't at all concerned. I was able to pull into a ranger station and get maps etc. I went back to Glacier in September and I think all gates (at least the gates I went through) were manned every day during the day. I saw something really strange at the entry gates to Padre Island National Seashore - they had all the security gear that you normally see at Canadian and Mexico border crossings. They took pictures of every car that entered the park. I didn't see anything like it in any other park I visited.

I like having a pass so I don't have to worry about it. The $80 pass can be purchased over the phone or online if you have at least 10 days before your trip. If you're still associated with the military or reserves, you and your dependents may be able to get a free military annual pass. Unfortunately, I think you need to get the military pass in person showing military ID or Common Access Card. If you're not close to a park, you may be able to get a pass at an NPS, BLM or Forest Service regional office. I suggest calling the office first to see if they have or sell the pass that you need.

Bureau of Land Management
Utah State Office
440 West 200 South, Suite 500
Salt Lake City, Utah 84101-1345
Phone: (801) 539-4001
TDD: (801) 539-4133
Fax: (801) 539-4237

US Forest Service
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Have a great time on your trips. I just loved the Tetons. Haven't been to Denali yet.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

Funny how much variability there is eh? Everything from required receipts to full on security photos to manned 8-5 to no pass required at all. I was also surprised to see all parks aren't $25. Some are only $5-10.

I still think I'm far better off paying the fees on the rare occasion it isn't a free day or someone in the car doesn't have a pass even not counting the days I arrive and leave in the dark. I mean you can pay for 3 weeks in the most expensive parks and still be better off not buying the annual pass. You could probably spend the entire year in National Parks and keep the fees under $80 with all the free and $5 ones. The only people it seems to make sense for are those who either are going to 8 different parks in a week on some Southern Utah mega trip or the person who goes to an expensive park one day a month.

It doesn't make sense to buy it by mail. You can just buy it at the booth and then it lasts 10 days longer.

You guys are aware that only 8% of the National Park budget comes from fees, right? Most of it comes from all those taxes we pay. If they were really trying to pay for the park the fee would be $200 for a week and there would be no free ones. Actually, I think that would be a great idea. I would definitely pay the $200 to cut down on the crowds in places like Yosemite and Zion. Maybe then the campsites would last longer than 30 seconds on the reservation system.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by letsgobobby »

EmergDoc,

I might, too, but that's a different discussion entirely. As is the adequacy of the funding, since while most parks funding comes from taxes, the NPS claims $11.5 billion in deferred maintenance on an annual budget of $2.2 billion. Anyone with deferred maintenance of 5 times their annual budget is not, in their view, getting adequate resources to survive. Sequestration added to the woes; basically most of the non-main visitor center facilities are 80+ years old, the result of CCC type programs from the Depression and showing their age. The beautiful new showpiece visitor centers at places like Zion, Rainier, Teton, etc., are effective in keeping the average visitor under the impression that the Parks are running in peak shape. Sadly, as you know, the backcountry and the law enforcement requirements of modern rangering tell us otherwise.

Ken Burns called our national parks "America's Best Idea" and he may be right. They're amazing places, and worth supporting. $80 is nothing; some Bogleheads earn that in less than an hour's work.

For those who find themselves unable to buy passes, there are many tax-deductible non-profit organizations that support our national parks. Most of the large parks (and probably a lot of the small ones) have dedicated organizations supporting them. My state also has a non-profit dedicated to its 3 national parks, and a trails organization which I am passionate about and support enthusiastically. A few examples are listed below:

http://www.wnpf.org/
http://www.discovernw.org/
http://www.wta.org/
http://www.nationalparks.org/
http://www.yosemiteconservancy.org/
http://www.craterlakeoregon.org/Links.asp
http://www.gorgefriends.org/

etc, etc.

Also, most national parks have cash donation boxes in various visitor centers...
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Dan999 »

EmergDoc

I read this thread from beginning to end. It seems that in the beginning you were clearly in the camp of beating the system and not playing by the rules. You were not paying your fair share.

You now seem to be mellowing in your view maybe after the wave of criticism you have received.

I find it surprising and disappointing that you felt the need to beat the park service for $25.

I have read your responses to other threads and met you at last years Bogleheads convention. You seem like a stand up guy.
You have written what appears to be a good advice book to fellow medical professionals.

So I am mystified why someone of your education, professional success and apparently very successful life would want to beat the National Park system out of $25. I guess since I went to the Grand Canyon and experienced it's wonder, I am a little more on the Park's camp on this.

Maybe if you had beat the IRS out of the $25 I would not have cared. It must be the organization you beat that bothers me.
Maybe it is a generation gap thing..

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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Random Poster »

EmergDoc wrote:Exactly what should I do with my $25, mail it to the treasury?
Hand it over at the visitor center. Or mail it to the Park headquarters.
EmergDoc wrote:Besides, I don't get any service, directions, maps etc. There should be a nighttime discount! :)
You should take up your suggestion with your congresspeople. Until then, you should pay.
EmergDoc wrote:What would you like me to do with my $25?
See my response above. If you know how to get to the park, surely you can figure out the address to which you should mail your payment.
EmergDoc wrote:P.S. No one is manning RMNP booths at 3 am either. You put a Ranger there (or even a little dropbox), I'll gladly pay. Until then, I'll assume it's free if you come early enough.
Have you considered contacting the park(s) in question to confirm whether they are in agreement with your assumption?
EmergDoc wrote:The only people it seems to make sense for are those who either are going to 8 different parks in a week on some Southern Utah mega trip or the person who goes to an expensive park one day a month.
Perhaps, but I disagree.
EmergDoc wrote:You guys are aware that only 8% of the National Park budget comes from fees, right? Most of it comes from all those taxes we pay. If they were really trying to pay for the park the fee would be $200 for a week and there would be no free ones. Actually, I think that would be a great idea. I would definitely pay the $200 to cut down on the crowds in places like Yosemite and Zion. Maybe then the campsites would last longer than 30 seconds on the reservation system.
That is some great rationalization that you have going on there.

Besides, as someone who uses the park system, surely you are aware of the need for trail maintenance and upkeep. The Park Service needs all the money that it can get, and skipping out on paying the park admission fee is pretty poor form, in my view. If you wish to keep the parks open and available for all for years and generations to come, and keep open the possibility of creating and maintaining new parks in the future, you should pay the admission fee.

I doubt that it matters much, but what respect I had for you previously has been diminished due to the comments that you have posted in this thread.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

# 1- I DO NOT want "the trails" maintained. I personally think what is done in a lot of the national parks to be ridiculous. You can basically drive a golf cart 80% of the way up Angel's Landing. What's next, boat tours up the narrows? I'm perfectly fine with them taking the cables off the back of half dome too. 95% of the "trails" I spend time on in the National Parks are not maintained in any way, shape, or form. That's why I go to the National Parks.

#2 - I find it hilarious that apparently everyone else on this site, upon arriving at a National Park at 8 pm, would go out of their way to make sure that the National Park gets their $25 at some point during their stay, even if they had to mail it in to the park service after their return home. That's some pretty impressive dedication to the social good. Surely these aren't the same people I see feeding the squirrels, deer, and bears when I go to the parks. [Edited at moderator's request.]

#3 - If the booths are closed, the visitor's center is closed.

#4 - This all reminds me of Learned Hand's ruling -

Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.

Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).

Any one may so arrange his affairs so that his National Parks entrance fees shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's entrance fees.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DesertResister »

It hurts me to say this but +1 for the boundary waters. It's so remote and so beautiful you could spend a week there and never see another soul. So yes it hurts me because I am selfish and want it all to myself. :D
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Random Poster »

EmergDoc wrote:# 1- I DO NOT want "the trails" maintained. I personally think what is done in a lot of the national parks to be ridiculous. You can basically drive a golf cart 80% of the way up Angel's Landing. What's next, boat tours up the narrows? I'm perfectly fine with them taking the cables off the back of half dome too. 95% of the "trails" I spend time on in the National Parks are not maintained in any way, shape, or form. That's why I go to the National Parks.


That may be, but you apparently want a/the National Park(s) (otherwise, why would you use them?). You just don't seem to want to pay (the full price) for them.
EmergDoc wrote:#2 - I find it hilarious that apparently everyone else on this site, upon arriving at a National Park at 8 pm, would go out of their way to make sure that the National Park gets their $25 at some point during their stay, even if they had to mail it in to the park service after their return home. That's some pretty impressive dedication to the social good.
I can't speak for others, but I personally have a National Parks pass, so the payment issue is moot.
EmergDoc wrote:Surely these aren't the same people I see feeding the squirrels, deer, and bears when I go to the parks.
I've never fed one of those animals, or any animal, in a National Park.
EmergDoc wrote:#3 - If the booths are closed, the visitor's center is closed.


That may be, but the point remains. Of course, I suppose if you happened to come across a Park Ranger during one of your hikes, you could pay then and there as well...
EmergDoc wrote:#4 - This all reminds me of Learned Hand's ruling -

Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Let me know when the Treasury/IRS only accepts payment between the hours of 8:00 am and 5:00 pm....

Or, better yet, when does the IRS have "tax free payment" days?

---

To the OP,

I forgot to add in my initial reply that some of the best parks/monuments/historic sites that I've visited are the ones that I just seemed to stumble upon. The kind where you are driving, you see a sign for a park, and you turn off to visit it with little to no planning. I don't disagree that the more well-known parks are well-known for a reason, but it can be difficult to appreciate nature when you are surrounded by a mass of humanity, and some of the smaller parks are very similar (but not identical, obviously) to the big-name ones (like the aforementioned Navajo one). But even with the big-name parks, you have to get off the road and away from the crowds to, in my view, really experience and enjoy the park. Even in the Grand Canyon, just getting away from the big traffic centers will pay dividends.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

All right, enough off-topic arguing. The OP wants to know what to use his pass for. I would say he should use it at the most expensive parks (rather than the "off-the beaten paths" since most of those are free or very cheap) now that he has apparently bought it.

I think these are the most expensive ones:

Grand Canyon, Zion, Yosemite, Arches, Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Rocky Mountain, Glacier (summer only)- $25 per car for a week

Death Valley, Sequoia- $20 per car for a week

Denali (only the park road or if you fly in to go climbing), Vanderbilt Mansion - $10 per person ($360 if you want to go climbing- as near as I can tell the highest charge the park service has in its entire system)

There is apparently only one National Park pay booth in all of the state of Alaska, despite there being 54 million acres or 2/3 of the entire national park system there.

Anybody know of any others that are $20-25 per car or $10 per person?

It should be noted the pass doesn't cover camping, hiking, canyoneering, backpacking, or climbing permits required on some routes in some parks.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Toons »

I just got my pass a couple of weeks ago,,I'm Excited :D :D

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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Doom&Gloom »

EmergDoc wrote:All right, enough off-topic arguing. The OP wants to know what to use his pass for. I would say he should use it at the most expensive parks now that he has apparently bought it. No point in using it at a bunch of free or $5 parks. I think these are the most expensive ones:

Grand Canyon, Zion, Yosemite, Arches, Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Rocky Mountain, Glacier (summer only)- $25 per car for a week

Death Valley, Sequoia- $20 per car for a week

Denali (only the park road or if you fly in to go climbing), Vanderbilt Mansion - $10 per person ($360 if you want to go climbing- as near as I can tell the highest charge the park service has in its entire system)

There is apparently only one National Park pay booth in all of the state of Alaska, despite there being 54 million acres or 2/3 of the entire national park system there.

Edit: Dang! Toons beat me by seconds.

Anybody know of any others that are $20-25 per car or $10 per person?

It should be noted the pass doesn't cover camping, hiking, canyoneering, backpacking, or climbing permits required on some routes in some parks.
Good strategy. OP doesn't state his age, but if he's nearing 62, he'll be eligible for a $10 lifetime pass, so that may need to be considered as well. The senior pass is one of the best bargains that I've ever run across.

Edit: Dang! Toons beat me by seconds.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

Doom&Gloom wrote:
Good strategy. OP doesn't state his age, but if he's nearing 62, he'll be eligible for a $10 lifetime pass, so that may need to be considered as well. The senior pass is one of the best bargains that I've ever run across.
Perhaps the best strategy is to go to tons of them as a kid (free until 15), join the military at 18 and retire at 50 or so (free for military), then spend the first 15 years of retirement going to all the free and cheap ones before getting your $10 lifetime pass at 65. :)
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

IMO, the best strategy is simply to make some time and visit some of these beautiful places while we're healthy enough to do it. I think we all need time away from work, traffic, cell phones, computers, video games. I took a 6 month trip last year and didn't want to stop. It was so nice to be away from the city, traffic and to sleep in darkness with a view of the milky way and millions of stars.

Ken Burn's series on National Parks featured a QT Luong who has taken his medium format camera to every national park. If you want to browse some pictures to get some ideas on where to visit, check out his web site:
http://www.terragalleria.com

If you have a tablet, checkout an app called Fotopedia National Parks which also features Luong's photographs.

I didn't plan on doing a 6 month trip. Maybe 2-3 weeks at first. However, I met people along the way and everyone had ideas about what to do in Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, California, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas so I winged it and just started to explore. I met lots of great people, saw incredible sights, lost 25 lbs from all the hiking and had a blast.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by Random Poster »

EmergDoc wrote:Anybody know of any others that are $20-25 per car or $10 per person?
Big Bend is $20 per car/$10 per person on a motorcycle or bicycle.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by DSInvestor »

Here's a list of national parks with fees:
http://www.nationalparksblog.com/nation ... fees-list/
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by cleosdad »

EmergDoc wrote:
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Good strategy. OP doesn't state his age, but if he's nearing 62, he'll be eligible for a $10 lifetime pass, so that may need to be considered as well. The senior pass is one of the best bargains that I've ever run across.
Perhaps the best strategy is to go to tons of them as a kid (free until 15), join the military at 18 and retire at 50 or so (free for military), then spend the first 15 years of retirement going to all the free and cheap ones before getting your $10 lifetime pass at 65. :)
Please get ONE thing right. Just ONE thing.The America The Beautiful Lifetime pass is $10.00 @ 62 years of age!!! which I own and PAID FOR. I am through with you.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by retiredjg »

This has certainly been an interesting thread. Or rather, the EmergDoc sideline has been interesting.

I have to agree that it initially appeared that ED was simply trying to game the system and avoid paying the fee (surprising as that seemed to be). That is what the first post seemed to say. But when he finally got down to specific examples, what he is saying makes complete sense. If there is no way provided for you to pay a fee, the agency does not expect you to pay the fee. It is just that simple. If they expect you to pay, they will make it possible for that to happen and there will be signs to tell you how to do it.

If there is no entrance station with a person or a tube to take your money or if you are not ever near an open visitor's center to pay your money, they don't expect any money. They know some people will not pay. That's irrelevant. These agencies have spent a lot of time and energy figuring out where and how they can collect fees and end up with a profit which they can use for the benefit of the resource. But there are thousands and thousands (more likely millions and millions) of acres of federal lands where this is simply not practical - trying to collect fees costs more than the fees they would bring in. What idiot administrator would try to do that?

So they've done the smart thing - collect what you can (which thankfully is going back to the resource) and not worry about the rest. It's just the practical thing to do.

I've worked for 2 of these agencies, retired from one, and I spent much of the last year visiting areas managed by about a half dozen of these entities. I saw a lot of different ways of doing things and most of them sort of seemed to work for that specific area.

I even saw completely different approaches for different areas of the same National Park. At Death Valley, they have machines that let you pay for entrance and camping on the busy side of the park. And there are signs telling you to pay your fee or go to the Visitor Center to show your age/access pass. But go over to the Panamint Valley side of the park and there is not a fee tube or a visitor center or any instructions for paying a fee anywhere. They have made an administrative decision to collect fees on the Furnace Creek Side but not on the Panamint Valley side. And it seems to work. If you come in from the west and leave toward the west, you simply don't pay an entrance fee. That is how it is set up.

And that's how it seems for the specific examples that ED has given. So I think people should give him a break on this one.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by TimeRunner »

Sadly, if you work for the National Park Service, you are still required to pay the entrance fee unless you are entering a Park on confirmable business (i.e. have an appointment, attending a training class, etc). Being employed by NPS does not waive entrance fees. It is not an employee benefit.

PS You can donate directly to the U.S. National Park Service, and it's tax-deductible.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by White Coat Investor »

cleosdad wrote:
EmergDoc wrote:
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Good strategy. OP doesn't state his age, but if he's nearing 62, he'll be eligible for a $10 lifetime pass, so that may need to be considered as well. The senior pass is one of the best bargains that I've ever run across.
Perhaps the best strategy is to go to tons of them as a kid (free until 15), join the military at 18 and retire at 50 or so (free for military), then spend the first 15 years of retirement going to all the free and cheap ones before getting your $10 lifetime pass at 65. :)
Please get ONE thing right. Just ONE thing.The America The Beautiful Lifetime pass is $10.00 @ 62 years of age!!! which I own and PAID FOR. I am through with you.
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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by TxAg »

Big Bend is a fantastic place. I recommend going in early March. I also agree with an above poster that Chisos Basin ia a great place to stay....apparently it is the least light polluted place in the lower 48


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Re: america the beautiful national parks and lands pass

Post by retiredjg »

If you are interested in Big Bend, beware Spring Break in Texas. Hard to find a place to stay.
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