Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleigh?

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stoptothink
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by stoptothink »

pennstater2005 wrote:Dude, relax.
I apologize if pointing out facts directly from the manufacturer, which made your claim moot, hurt your feelings.
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pennstater2005
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by pennstater2005 »

Feelings not hurt. My experience differed from yours. My bike had no issues with no valve adjustments and you can't seem to comprehend or accept that.
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freebeer
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by freebeer »

I have a Kymco People S 200, it gets to 70 on level, so I can ride on freeways, and it's affordable both in its miserly gas consumption (I love the expression on the folks filling up their gas guzzlers when I fill up with 1/2 gallon) and purchase priced (used you can get one under $2K). It has motorcycle-sized wheels which I find far preferable to the mini wheels on most scooters (and in US we don't have to do the tight-quarters maneuvering of urban Asia) and overall handles like a motorcycle but with "twist and go" and step-through convenience. Kymco is #1 brand in Taiwan and high quality - no need to pay the Honda/Yamaha/etc. premium. And to the poster who said scooters failed his man-test: I'm sorry about your fragile ego :wink: but if you ever want to give your manliness a *real* check-up try riding a scooter in Taipei.
Image

That being said even as a scooter enthusiast I would think twice about using a scooter or motorcycle for a daily nearly 40 mile round-trip commute, on the safety and convenience grounds mentioned by other posters. I use it mostly for errands around town, occasional jaunts into the Big City where bringing a car is a pain (and for occasions where it might be a bit improper to show up sweaty from a bike ride) and for fun (and to facilitate us having only 2 regular cars for 3 drivers). But I almost always get to cherry-pick when to ride... if it was my every-day rain-or-shine ride I think I'd not like it so much and the cumulative risk would give me pause.
stoptothink
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by stoptothink »

pennstater2005 wrote:Feelings not hurt. My experience differed from yours. My bike had no issues with no valve adjustments and you can't seem to comprehend or accept that.
My initial post, which you disputed, is that they require more maintenance. Motorcycle engines require valve adjustments as frequently as car engines require oil changes, that is straight from the manufacturer. It is also recommended that you get a full tune up at least every 12 months, regardless of mileage; most car tune up schedules are longer than the total life expectancy of the average motorcycle engine. Similarly, wear and tear items (tires, brake pads, air filters, etc.) must be replaced more often.

I accept that your anecdotal experience may be different. Congrats on not burning a valve in however many miles you put on it, your experience is not the norm (I think, you never said how long or how many miles you had the bike). Consider that before disputing someone else's statement.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Epsilon Delta »

goonie wrote:There's some good advice here. It made me think about how a lot of this reasoning also applies to riding a bicycle.

You wouldn't ride a bicycle on an interstate or freeway but I think even the comments related to those roads would still apply since cycling typically involves being on roads where much larger vehicles are traveling faster than you are.

You do usually go faster on a scooter than on a bicycle, which increases the risk factor. So it's not exactly the same. But cycling is still riding exposed on a tiny vehicle amongst much larger and heavier vehicles.
There is actual data on this. It's not very good data, but it is data.

The evidence for cycling is that per mile is between half and four times as dangerous as the average car. Motorcycles on the other hand are about 35 times worse on a per mile basis. So no it's not exactly the same, it's at least an order of magnitude different.

And this is in the current state of cycling in the US, where cyclists are banned from the safest roads, most mileage is on the most dangerous roads and the authorities couldn't care less about the most basic of safety laws, such as stop signs and keeping right. A small investment in cyclist competence would almost certainly improve the situation significantly.
Carlton
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Carlton »

I've been a motorcyclist since 1983 with hundreds of thousands of miles of accident-free riding under my belt, including several coast to coast motorcycle trips, Alaska to NYC and some track time. I would never consider a 250cc scooter, too slow and the dinky wheels are not great for stability.

One of the main advantages of a motorcycle is maneuverability and ability to throttle out of situations. A 500-600cc motorcycle like a Suzuki V-Strom 650 or Honda CB500 will be far more agile and have no problem keeping up with and passing traffic as needed. This is while I avoid "cruiser" style bikes, they tend to handle poorly and are cumbersome, preferring "sport-touring" and UJM (universal Japanese motorcycle) styles. You can easily get 100,000 miles+ out of a well maintained Japanese motorcycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_ ... motorcycle

The biggest cost of motorcycle riding is tire replacement. Good sport touring tires will run around $300 a set plus installation with a typical 6000-8000 mile life. A small compact car will generally be cheaper to operate.

One huge advantage of the increased maneuverability is the ability to lane "split" heavy stop and go traffic. Common in California, this can save much time on a commute. (I'm not talking about doing this in fast traffic, but at around 10-15mph in stop 'n go). Legality aside, it is done everywhere around the globe. Riding can be a hell of a lot of fun. A well-lived life has managed risks, a sanitized, completely risk-free life to me is dull and unfulfilled.

Motorcycling is definitely riskier than driving a car period. That said, many of the risks can be managed by proficient motorcycling. Being aware of your surroundings, having good riding skills and training, never assuming that others see you, never drinking and riding. The behavior that skews injury and death stats are IMHO...

-Middle aged mid-life crisis guys that have never ridden, and decide to buy a 800 pound 1300cc cruiser and wobble away without a clue.
-Young, inexperienced riders buying a 180mph sport bike with the invincibility-thought that comes with youth.
-Riding under the influence, too typical with many in the Harley crowd riding from pub to pub.
-Not riding enough, you can't expect to become a good motorcyclist riding 250 miles per year, the more you ride, the better you should become. I can anticipate most motorists' intent before they do.
-Not wearing proper gear, gloves, boots, leather or textile riding jacket, heavy pants and/or riding suit. Think these guys ever ride without gear? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLV5mkGH9E
-Assuming others see you. Ride as if you are invisible and anticipate that the left turning car will turn in front of you.
-Choosing not to wear a helmet, better yet a Snell approved full-face. Most of the head injures are from the 5 foot fall from sitting position on the bike to pavement, even in minor accidents.
-Not getting proper training. Good beginner rider courses from the AMA are everywhere, for more advanced riders, schools like California Superbike school that travel to tracks across the country provide invaluable experience in honing your skills on the street even if you never want to go racing.
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Sbashore
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Sbashore »

midareff wrote:I don't know anyone, I repeat, anyone, who has ridden a scooter or motorbike for a significant time period and is not being at least partially held together by screws and bolts. You are asking for PE's stated results.
I agree with this. Long ago I made the uncharacteristic (for my age) decision to give up motorcycle riding. What drove me to this decision was that when you ride, it's not a question of if you're going down, it's when and how often. And yes, it took a few unpleasant experiences to make me realize it.
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freebeer
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by freebeer »

Epsilon Delta wrote:...
... as dangerous as the average car. Motorcycles on the other hand are about 35 times worse ... on a per mile basis. ...
The "35 times worse" statistic appears to be about the risk of a fatal crash on motorcycle vs. car from a 2006 study (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810990.PDF). But, the same study indicates the injury rate is not nearly as drastically different as car driving (only 20% worse per vehicle registered). Since fatal crashes are relatively rare vs. injury crashes (only 39 fatalities per 100M miles traveled on motorcycle) it seems inaccurate to claim motorcycles are 35 times more dangerous. Particularly without data indicating fatality/injury rates on a basis of similar miles - for example many motorcycle riders are sport riders doing fast curvy roads, I'm would not expect their fatality rate per such mile is nearly 35x higher than the fatality rate of sports car drivers on similar roads.

One way to look at it is that if you ride 100K miles on a motorcycle during your life you would have about a 4% risk of dying, per that 39 fatalities per 100M miles stat, but considering that a Boglehead would certainly not be riding the same roads and at the same speeds as a knucklehead on a crotch rocket we could conservatively cut that at least in half to 2%. And if you are a fair-weather occasional rider and only do 10K miles cumulatively then your risk would be .2%.

So OK 2% risk of dying from something isn't wonderful and even .2% is nothing to sneeze at.

But you have a 100% chance of dying sometime including 25% chance of dying from a heart attack, 23% chance of dying from cancer, 10% chance of dying from a stroke, 5% chance of dying from a fall down stairs, etc. Smelling the flowers while spending your time focusing on reducing risks by improving health doesn't seem completely unreasonable. Spending the saved gas money on a gym membership would probably net out to positive delta in expected longevity.
Trader Joe
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Trader Joe »

Scooters are an excellent choice for getting around in your area. Great fun and excellent gas mileage. There are many freeway legal scooters available that have top speeds of around 80 mph. Being a defensive driver and anticipating potential issues while driving is the key to mitigating risk.

Have fun and enjoy.
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TimeRunner
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by TimeRunner »

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tidalwave10
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by tidalwave10 »

Thanks again to all. Ride sharing isn't feasible given a reasonably irregular schedule. Will be paying off my small sub-compact car soon and may drive it "till the wheels fall off."
hudson
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by hudson »

tidalwave10 wrote: Will be paying off my small sub-compact car soon and may drive it "till the wheels fall off."
good plan!
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Frugal Al
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Frugal Al »

Carlton wrote: I would never consider a 250cc scooter, too slow and the dinky wheels are not great for stability.
Everything in vehicle design is a compromise. There's more to motorcycle/scooter stability than just the wheel size: rake/trail, wheelbase, suspension compliance. Many of the the larger scooters have 12", 13" or 14" wheels, not the 10" found on Vespas. I put thousands of miles on my Honda Helix and it was very stable, having a long wheelbase (about the same as a Harley ElectaGlide), and the front wheel was 12".
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Frugal Al
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Frugal Al »

freebeer wrote:Kymco is #1 brand in Taiwan and high quality - no need to pay the Honda/Yamaha/etc.
Agreed, Kymco makes an excellent scooter. I've ridden them many times. My only reservation is that they don't have the parts distribution in the US that Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki have.
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batpot
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by batpot »

Interesting thread...I've been considering the same, except I'd be adding a bike to the garage.

I'm taking the basic rider course at the end of this month, and will decide after that point.
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kramer
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by kramer »

I also drive a Kymco scooter (125 cc Super 8 bought new in 2012 for $1500) here in the Philippines and I love it -- and operating costs are almost nothing. I only use it to get around town even though it will do 60 mph. There are more scooters here so people are more aware of them when driving and speeds are much slower than the USA, but my main safety strategy is to try to minimize miles driven. I drive less than 2000 miles per year on it. But there is no way I would do any kind of real commute on it as the OP is thinking, both for reasons of distance/safety and inclement weather.

Unlike the USA, here there is an ecosystem of scooter repair due to the high density of ownership. I can get an oil change for $10. There are vulcanization places everywhere and it costs $1.25 to get an intertube patched while you wait or $6 to get a tubeless tire removed and cooked/patched. Annual registration and insurance costs total $50.
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by madbrain »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
madbrain wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote: But then again you can't put DEATH on a spreadsheet so perhaps you can just ignore it.
Sure you can - add the cost for additional life insurance to offset the risk to your family.
:idea: Life Insurance and death are not the same thing to the person who dies. :idea:
Of course, I'm aware of that.
:annoyed It is actually depressing to a retired person with a portfolio or insurance that his family might be financially better off if he was dead. :annoyed

:moneybag you don't want to give some people ideas! :moneybag

I wasn't trying to give people ideas, but strictly from a cost perspective, accounting for additional life insurance due to the additional risk of driving a scooter might show that continuing to drive a car is less expensive.
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tidalwave10
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by tidalwave10 »

hudson wrote:
tidalwave10 wrote: Will be paying off my small sub-compact car soon and may drive it "till the wheels fall off."
good plan!
Thanks Hudson. This has worked well for me in the past--literally drove my 2001 Toyota Corolla (purchased new with 0% interest loan) till, somewhere in the neighborhood of close to 200K miles, on I-95 around the Georgia / Florida state line, the engine pumped its last piston.

Never wanted to buy a new car initially. But there was a comfort factor in making a move from one state to another (MA to NC) and not knowing any mechanics I'd trust, etc. And I'd read that buying a car new and driving it till its end-of-life (or at least where the repair costs start becoming a drain) was a financially responsible strategy for car ownership.

Frankly, I hate cars. But the cost of living "close to work" or in a city would likely far outweigh any savings I'd gain by making that move.
thewizzer
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by thewizzer »

My wife calls them murder-cycles.

It sounds like you would be a great candidate for an elio if they ever start building them.
tony44
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by tony44 »

tidalwave10 wrote:While I own a small, relatively fuel efficient hatchback here in the Raleigh, NC area, it's mostly used for commuting. A huge expense, in my opinion, and mostly a waste. I've thought about getting a scooter for commuting to work (around 18 miles each way), but:

* Most scooters can't get to highway speed - seems the max may be around 60 mph with a 250cc engine. Are there any reasonably priced ones that can go a bit faster? Somehow I'm less afraid of scooters than motorcycles. Possibly because I see so many motorcyclists doing completely crazy and irresponsible things on the highway--because they've got the acceleration ability to do it, etc.

* I take the dreaded 440 belt line, plus a portion of I-40, to get to work. Not sure the safety trade-off would be worth the savings. But I want to explore this as an option. I do have the option of taking "back roads" to work. But the speed limits still mostly range between 45 mph and 55 mph. When I see the undersized engine scooters trying to use roads with speed limits of 55+, it irritates me because they can't flow / keep up with other traffic.

When I lived in Boston, I took the bus a lot since I didn't live directly on a subway line. It was cheap, efficient, and was shared by folks from all, or most, walks of life. While there's no bus line near me, I unfortunately look at the people using public transport around here and it seems only to be the most poor and downtrodden--no professionals that I can see. So I'd feel a bit out of place. I could get over that, assuming it was generally safe to ride the buses (e.g. not lots of poor-on-poor crime). Never experienced any incidents whatever on urban Boston buses. But then I also didn't take them at night when you get lots of drunkards and others potentially up to no good.

Every time I hear these "walk / bike / etc to work" campaigns, I think: what the heck do you do when you live in a sprawling suburb like Raleigh (not the RTP area, but Raleigh and toward Garner / Clayton). Ride sharing probably wouldn't work for me since I have a sometimes unpredictable schedule. Would love to have the wife keep her car (don't want to impact her way of life in my efforts to save move) and ditch my own (purchased new in 2011, will be paid off 100% in December but all warranties on it will be expired).

The two real downsides I see to using a scooter or small motor cycle:

* Exposure to the elements (rain storms, etc)

* Stability -- four wheels are better than two. I've seen three wheel motorcycles--those seem a lot safer to me, stability wise, and any two wheeled vehicle. Would be perfect to have a three wheeled motorcycle with an enclosed cabin. Not sure why we don't see more (or any) of those for commuting.

* General safety - traffic fatalities in general are far higher than fatalities from flying. And I imagine the fatality rate for scooters, motorcycles, and possibly even cyclists who choose to ride where there is no bike lane, is huge compared with auto-only fatalities. Wonder how one mitigates this risk. Is it mostly the irresponsible and reckless motorcyclists who most often crash? Or is it a 50/50 between responsible, aware motorcyclists vs. those in huge vehicles who "just didn't see you", were on the phone and/or texting (about the same level of distraction as drunk driving, some studies show).

Would love to ditch the car and rid myself of excessive gas prices, high insurance, maintenance costs, etc. Just a money pit, even for a low-end compact car. Or pretend to be a teenager again and buy an old "beater" for commuting, using my wife's car for any long journeys, etc.

Suggestions?
Motorcycles don't do stupid things, people do stupid things. Sound familiar?
cbr shadow
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by cbr shadow »

Wow i'm shocked at how many people say not to get a motorbike due to safety. In Europe these are very very common.
On just about any other forum if you posted this question you'd get a mix of responses, but almost all here say "dont do it! Safety!". Maybe it's just the demographic here? Generally older conservative folks or something? Not trying to insult anyone, it's just strange that safety would come up so much. Did you know that you're 84x as likely to get in a car accident by driving to the grocery store than walking?

Financially it's not as cut and dry as comparing MPG's. Motorbikes dont last as long as cars, require different maintenance, and you lose some convenience factors due to weather and storage needs. Despite all of that, I still own a Honda Grom that I use for commuting pretty often. It's only 125cc's, top speed of ~55mph, but I take 40mph roads the whole way to work, which is about 13 miles each way. I get ~100mpg on it. I definitely wouldn't take it on the highway though, due to it's low top speed and acceleration. The thing I think people above are missing is the FUN factor. Sure it adds SOME danger, but not enough to pass up the fun of riding to work most days for me.

I've been riding motorbikes for 14 years and have had 1 small spill that was my own fault where I was hotrodding around and took a corner WAY too fast and slipped on some gravel. No injuries since I was wearing a helmet and riding jacket.
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Frugal Al
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Frugal Al »

cbr shadow wrote:Wow i'm shocked at how many people say not to get a motorbike due to safety. In Europe these are very very common.
Their popularity in Europe and Asia makes them safer--drivers are more aware of cyclists around them. Also the commutes are generally much shorter in those regions, and at slower speeds. I agree though, for a relatively short commute at relatively low speeds with proper gear, I see little issue. It's more dangerous than a car, but we all take certain risks.
Atilla
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Atilla »

Over the past 30 years I've logged at least 150,000 injury-free motorcycle miles. And no way would I want to commute in heavy rush hour traffic on a bike.

First - it's no fun; and second - people are idiots. If you're all boxed in by cars you're a target. A motorcycle's greatest advantages come from acceleration and maneuverability.
lightheir
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by lightheir »

I did a 21 mile commute one-way (42 total) 3-5x per week for a year before a baby arrived in the family.

It's not for the faint of heart, but was great exercise, and because I predominantly rode back streets, def safer (but slower) than a scooter. Riding home in rush hour was a mixed bag - annoying because of all the cars, but weirdly safer on busy streets as well because the car traffic was so much slower.

It's doable as an adventure occasionally for the non die hard cyclist who wants to still get benefits from the commute.
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tidalwave10
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by tidalwave10 »

Glad to put this to rest--it's not for me, personally. Safety's a huge issue and I didn't know about some of the financials (the extra maintenance required, etc). Good conversation. Forget if I or anyone else mentioned it. But it the areas around Raleigh I travel through, the norm seems to be overweighted on ownership of monstrously large trucks and gigantic SUVs--with the latter, many folks seemingly don't know how to drive / maneuver them very well. I'm fine with others owning large vehicles--but sometimes wish folks having vehicles over a certain size should have some sort of higher-tier license--not quite a CDL as with a Big Rig. But some additional training.

Anyone, the predominance of supersized vehicle ownership around here should tell me the risk of a motorcycle is not worth the potential reward. The idea of a "donor cycle", as one person put it, is also a "nice" / helpful image / thought / disincentive.

Hope at some point to be doing work that is location-independent, so I can dispense a large amount of time spent on the roads, period. And/or move to a community like The Villages, Florida where you can get to nearly all services one requires via golf cart. Relatives there, and I think it's so cool. Too bad there aren't more developments like it for non-retirees.
Dandy
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by Dandy »

I would try to save money another way. The US is not geared to bike or scooter trip especially in populated areas. Scooter commuting is much more risky than a car. I think you would be penny wise and pound foolish.
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WolfpackFan
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by WolfpackFan »

Fellow Raleigh-ite here! I'll be blunt, you couldn't pay me enough to hop on a scooter in rush hour traffic with the drivers we have around here.
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tidalwave10
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by tidalwave10 »

WolfpackFan wrote:Fellow Raleigh-ite here! I'll be blunt, you couldn't pay me enough to hop on a scooter in rush hour traffic with the drivers we have around here.
Thanks Dandy and WolfpackFan.
@Dandy, pound foolish would be spot on re: choosing a scooter here. Also stepping over dollars to pick up pennies--or rather, someone else picking up my corpse or paralyzed body in the course of my endeavor to save a few bucks. Certainly better ways to save money as you suggest. And the life I save may be my own, yadda yadda yadda :-)

@WolfpackFan, yeah, it really does sound like a crazy idea. Many of the cyclists are nuts as well, riding on Secondary Roads with high speed limits (e.g. 45 mph+) with absolutely no shoulders. Big fan of cycling--though I'm more of a hiker / power-walker. And we've got so many great Greenways in the area. At least in my neck of the Triangle, there are no bike lanes. But I've got access to the Neuse River trail that runs mostly (or entirely) uninterrupted for something like 27 miles. Yeah, I've gotta drive a few miles to get to an entry point but it would meet all of my local cycling needs.

I do wish we were closer to the mountains. Or that there was regular shuttle service from RTP to various trailheads in the mountains.
4nursebee
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by 4nursebee »

Where I work we call them donor cycles...

Dude, if I lived in Raleigh I would have to go and at least look at the Vespa dealer. They also have some 3 wheel bikes. Style, economy, fun.
440 on a scooter? U crazy!
Dont let emotions cloud good judgement.
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bltkmt
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Re: Ditch car and commute to work in 250cc scooter in Raleig

Post by bltkmt »

If you do end up getting a scooter, I highly recommend you look at the Sym HD200. It can get to 70mp pretty easily and is a wonderful scooter. Sym made scooters/motorcycles for Honda for years - very reliable brand. I own their Mio 50 for around town stuff.
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