Irrigation system question
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Irrigation system question
So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.
Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.
Anyone with any experience with the matter?
edit picture added:
Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.
Anyone with any experience with the matter?
edit picture added:
Last edited by traumadoc77 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Irrigation system question
I have been having my sprinkler system blown out for 15 years. I am still on the same backflow valve. Never had a problem.
I would ask people in your area if this is common. Maybe your weather is different than mine. I know we had -20F this past winter.
I would probably find a new person to winterize your system, but it is worth asking your guy why your backflow cracked. Maybe he will make good on it.
I would ask people in your area if this is common. Maybe your weather is different than mine. I know we had -20F this past winter.
I would probably find a new person to winterize your system, but it is worth asking your guy why your backflow cracked. Maybe he will make good on it.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
Re: Irrigation system question
Not wanting to take the chance of having the backflow preventer freeze, I have them remove it at the union joints on each side and I place the piece in a heavy duty plastic bag and place it in the walk-in crawl space. My system is due for reactivation next Thursday and I will bring it out of the crawl space that morning. I would never leave it attached during the winter. Our homeowner's association backflow preventer at the entrance to our subdivision was stolen a month ago because it was left attached in an open area.
Tom D.
Re: Irrigation system question
What part of the country do you live?traumadoc77 wrote:So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.
Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.
Anyone with any experience with the matter?
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Re: Irrigation system question
This is my first irrigation system. Is it normal to remove it every winter as part of the winterization? It certainly was not removed or unscrewed or anything, it was in same position as when it was running in the summer. We are in the midwest so fairly cold winters, this winter in particular.
Re: Irrigation system question
This is overkill IMO. You do not need to go through that trouble. Simply draining your system is more than fine. It won't break it there is little or no water in it. Also, the actual piece is not that expensive. Hiring someone to remove/replace it is, however.tomd37 wrote:Not wanting to take the chance of having the backflow preventer freeze, I have them remove it at the union joints on each side and I place the piece in a heavy duty plastic bag and place it in the walk-in crawl space. My system is due for reactivation next Thursday and I will bring it out of the crawl space that morning. I would never leave it attached during the winter. Our homeowner's association backflow preventer at the entrance to our subdivision was stolen a month ago because it was left attached in an open area.
Cosmo
Re: Irrigation system question
traumadoc77 wrote:This is my first irrigation system. Is it normal to remove it every winter as part of the winterization? It certainly was not removed or unscrewed or anything, it was in same position as when it was running in the summer. We are in the midwest so fairly cold winters, this winter in particular.
No, this is not normal to remove it every year. The key is to have your system properly drained so that no water resides in the housing, which is usually made of plastic.
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Re: Irrigation system question
The part that is cracked looks like brass? I think it was 400-500 dollars when the last people had to replace it. The guy came out and blew it out with air last fall before thing started to freeze. I guess I want to know if it is on him for not doing it right or just something that can happen.
- FrugalInvestor
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Re: Irrigation system question
What type of climate do you live in? If you live in a place where you only get occasional freezes you can prevent this by insulating the backflow preventer with foam pipe insuation or pipe wrap.traumadoc77 wrote:So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.
Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.
Anyone with any experience with the matter?
I say this because when we've rented in Phoenix we've had the pipes freeze where they are exposed above ground. This cracked the backflow preventer and when the plumber came to replace the preventer he also insulated the pipes and preventer which is common in Phoenix.
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
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Re: Irrigation system question
upper mid west
- FrugalInvestor
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Re: Irrigation system question
You have a lot of little nipples on there which are used to get the water blown out of the system (and prevent it from freezing). I'd guess that your guy didn't get all the water out when he winterized it.traumadoc77 wrote:upper mid west
]
The area you have circled looks to be the shutoff valve though. Isn't the backflow preventer the larger contraption in the middle?
What's the wire running up to the caulked area? Is it heat tape or something else?
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
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Re: Irrigation system question
Ok, so maybe not as expensive as I thought? I thought all the brass was the backflow preventer. It is a wire. To what I am unsure...
Re: Irrigation system question
See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 4 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.
If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
Last edited by livesoft on Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irrigation system question
the green handles are shut off valves. the handle is parallel to the pipe it is in the 'on' position. If it's perpendicular to the pipe as where you circle the crack it's 'off.' I would think that once all the water is blown out of that section between the two valves that both should be turned off.traumadoc77 wrote:Ok, so maybe not as expensive as I thought? I thought all the brass was the backflow preventer. It is a wire. To what I am unsure...
The reason I asked about the wire is that if it's heat tape it should probably be wrapped around the pipe and insulated which would prevent this from happening in the future. I would think that the portion of the pipe from the house to the circled shutoff would be subject to freezing even after the rest of the pipe is purged of water unless there's another shutoff under the house or somewhere else.
The wire It may be something else. You could probably figure it out by looking where it goes to outside the house.
Link to heat tape (heat trace) explanation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_heat ... protection
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Irrigation system question
The wire could be a simple attempt at grounding.
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Re: Irrigation system question
I have something similar with a couple of connectors where I can hook-up a quick disconnect from my air compressor hose. Once under pressure opening the ball valves blows all the water out. I've seen situations where the just letting the water run out leaves internal pockets of water which ends up freezing and breaking a pipe, valve or other portion of the system.livesoft wrote:See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 5 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.
If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
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Re: Irrigation system question
Yes, but it doesn't look large enough and ground wires don't require insulation, which it appears to have. If it is a ground wire it should either connect to the pipe or to a grounding rod. Where does it go outside? What are the markings on the insulation?livesoft wrote:The wire could be a simple attempt at grounding.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Irrigation system question
If you didn't properly turn off the water for the system inside your house (or the valve in the house doesn't close properly), water is going to fill up the pipe up to the closed valve that is circled in your photo. That would lead to a crack. If that section of pipe was never drained properly in the first place (which is possible since that valve is closed), that would do the same thing.
Re: Irrigation system question
Make friends with someone who knows a lot about house repairs/maintenance and ask him to explain to you the proper way to maintain your sprinkler system.
I have a couple of friends at work who are my go to people when I have questions like this or need help around the house.
I have a couple of friends at work who are my go to people when I have questions like this or need help around the house.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
Re: Irrigation system question
Exactly. The key is to leave the valves open so that no pressure builds if any left over water freezes.livesoft wrote:See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 4 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.
If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
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Re: Irrigation system question
Couple of things...
If two pipe wrenches are NOT used - you can stress the piping and fitting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBuEmE3sDI. Through some law of physics, the most expensive item usually breaks.
Next, I always use high point bleeds (for air to get out) and low point drains (to let the water out)
Finally, I would open the union near the house with the "in house" valve closed. If the "in house" valve leaks (evenly slightly) and the piping outside is slightly slanted towards the right side, water will fill between house the preventor.
http://www.backflowpreventer.com/media/ ... Manual.pdf
If two pipe wrenches are NOT used - you can stress the piping and fitting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBuEmE3sDI. Through some law of physics, the most expensive item usually breaks.
Next, I always use high point bleeds (for air to get out) and low point drains (to let the water out)
Finally, I would open the union near the house with the "in house" valve closed. If the "in house" valve leaks (evenly slightly) and the piping outside is slightly slanted towards the right side, water will fill between house the preventor.
http://www.backflowpreventer.com/media/ ... Manual.pdf
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Re: Irrigation system question
Thanks for all the replies. I paid the irrigation service to winterize it. It sounds as if it wasn't done properly. Which if I didn't understand what was being done or not done is on me... fun of house ownership
I'll see what the guy says and call a new company to service it I think.
I'll see what the guy says and call a new company to service it I think.
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Re: Irrigation system question
A friend that installed my system told me that this once happened at his house. He had blown the system out in the Fall and then found the damage in the Spring. It turns out that the shutoff valve to the system was failing. It would slowly allow water to leak into the pipe to the backflow preventer. So "yes" the system was properly winterized but something else in the system failed. He replaced the valve and things were fine after that.
Re: Irrigation system question
^If one leaves the little ball valves open, then one can see if water is dripping out indicating another leaky valve. A problem with leaving the ball valves open is that a spider might build a web/nest there or a mud dauber might fill it up. Of course, one can and should "un-winterize" the system and check for those things in the Spring.
Re: Irrigation system question
I remove mine every winter and put it in the garage. It takes about one minute to remove or reinstall it. I'm pretty sure every house in my nieghborhood does the same thing. I don't do anything else to winterize the system and have not had freezing issues for the 8 years i have been here. For reference, this is in Arkansas.
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Re: Irrigation system question
As others have pointed out you need to make sure your have shut off water to the system from inside the house. Follow the feed pipe back and see if there is another shutoff valve. If you find there is not another shutoff valve inside the house, hire a plumber to install one when they replace the outside shutoff valve.
Welcome to the joys of home ownership, almost every year I have to mess with the irrigation system. This was the very first thing I had to fix when I moved into my house as well. It was all shutoff and winterized when we did the home inspection so we didn't find out it leaked until after we moved in.
Welcome to the joys of home ownership, almost every year I have to mess with the irrigation system. This was the very first thing I had to fix when I moved into my house as well. It was all shutoff and winterized when we did the home inspection so we didn't find out it leaked until after we moved in.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Irrigation system question
Add one of these inside your house after your existing valve (if there is room) - between existing house valve and the backflow preventer
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LEGEND-VALVE ... /203581009
Then close the existing valve first, then open the drain, letting all the water leak out, then close the new valve.
This is called "belt" and "suspenders"
---X---Xd----<<<>>>>
where x is your existing valve,
Xd is new ball valve with drain
and <<<>>> is the backflow preventer.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LEGEND-VALVE ... /203581009
Then close the existing valve first, then open the drain, letting all the water leak out, then close the new valve.
This is called "belt" and "suspenders"
---X---Xd----<<<>>>>
where x is your existing valve,
Xd is new ball valve with drain
and <<<>>> is the backflow preventer.
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Re: Irrigation system question
Looks like something not associated with the irrigation unit.FrugalInvestor wrote:You have a lot of little nipples on there which are used to get the water blown out of the system (and prevent it from freezing). I'd guess that your guy didn't get all the water out when he winterized it. This would be my guess as well. I have someone come in the late Fall and use a large air compressor (connecting to the little nipple valves that are in your picture) and blow the main unit and all the water lines clear. Then I cover the unit with an insulated bag that is water resistant until Spring.traumadoc77 wrote:upper mid west
]
The area you have circled looks to be the shutoff valve though. Isn't the backflow preventer the larger contraption in the middle? In this picture it is.
What's the wire running up to the caulked area? Is it heat tape or something else?
I've been told the back valve is the most expensive part on the unit. Our winters get down to -20 at night sometimes and any water left in the irrigation unit will freeze and crack it somewhere.
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Re: Irrigation system question
There is a shut off in the basement, which is off since last fall. Guy was supposed to come out yesterday but no showed