Irrigation system question

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.

Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.

Anyone with any experience with the matter?

edit picture added:

Image
Last edited by traumadoc77 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mhc
Posts: 5257
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:18 pm
Location: NoCo

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by mhc »

I have been having my sprinkler system blown out for 15 years. I am still on the same backflow valve. Never had a problem.

I would ask people in your area if this is common. Maybe your weather is different than mine. I know we had -20F this past winter.

I would probably find a new person to winterize your system, but it is worth asking your guy why your backflow cracked. Maybe he will make good on it.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
tomd37
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Middle Tennessee

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by tomd37 »

Not wanting to take the chance of having the backflow preventer freeze, I have them remove it at the union joints on each side and I place the piece in a heavy duty plastic bag and place it in the walk-in crawl space. My system is due for reactivation next Thursday and I will bring it out of the crawl space that morning. I would never leave it attached during the winter. Our homeowner's association backflow preventer at the entrance to our subdivision was stolen a month ago because it was left attached in an open area.
Tom D.
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by Cosmo »

traumadoc77 wrote:So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.

Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.

Anyone with any experience with the matter?
What part of the country do you live?
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

This is my first irrigation system. Is it normal to remove it every winter as part of the winterization? It certainly was not removed or unscrewed or anything, it was in same position as when it was running in the summer. We are in the midwest so fairly cold winters, this winter in particular.
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by Cosmo »

tomd37 wrote:Not wanting to take the chance of having the backflow preventer freeze, I have them remove it at the union joints on each side and I place the piece in a heavy duty plastic bag and place it in the walk-in crawl space. My system is due for reactivation next Thursday and I will bring it out of the crawl space that morning. I would never leave it attached during the winter. Our homeowner's association backflow preventer at the entrance to our subdivision was stolen a month ago because it was left attached in an open area.
This is overkill IMO. You do not need to go through that trouble. Simply draining your system is more than fine. It won't break it there is little or no water in it. Also, the actual piece is not that expensive. Hiring someone to remove/replace it is, however.
Cosmo
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by Cosmo »

traumadoc77 wrote:This is my first irrigation system. Is it normal to remove it every winter as part of the winterization? It certainly was not removed or unscrewed or anything, it was in same position as when it was running in the summer. We are in the midwest so fairly cold winters, this winter in particular.


No, this is not normal to remove it every year. The key is to have your system properly drained so that no water resides in the housing, which is usually made of plastic.
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

The part that is cracked looks like brass? I think it was 400-500 dollars when the last people had to replace it. The guy came out and blew it out with air last fall before thing started to freeze. I guess I want to know if it is on him for not doing it right or just something that can happen.
User avatar
FrugalInvestor
Posts: 6214
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by FrugalInvestor »

traumadoc77 wrote:So we moved into this house about a year ago. Upon inspection the inspector noticed that the backflow preventer on our irrigation system was cracked. It turned out that the prior owners didn't winterize the system and it cracked. They paid for it and all was well.

Last fall I made sure to not make the same mistake and called the guy out and had him winterized the system. I went out this morning to take a look and it has another crack in the backflow preventer... Is this a known problem that can happen even if the system was winterized properly? Did he do a bad job and so it cracked again? He is coming out next Tuesday and I want to know how I should play it. Obviously I don't want to pay for someone elses mistake.

Anyone with any experience with the matter?
What type of climate do you live in? If you live in a place where you only get occasional freezes you can prevent this by insulating the backflow preventer with foam pipe insuation or pipe wrap.

I say this because when we've rented in Phoenix we've had the pipes freeze where they are exposed above ground. This cracked the backflow preventer and when the plumber came to replace the preventer he also insulated the pipes and preventer which is common in Phoenix.
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

upper mid west

Image
User avatar
FrugalInvestor
Posts: 6214
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by FrugalInvestor »

traumadoc77 wrote:upper mid west
]
You have a lot of little nipples on there which are used to get the water blown out of the system (and prevent it from freezing). I'd guess that your guy didn't get all the water out when he winterized it.

The area you have circled looks to be the shutoff valve though. Isn't the backflow preventer the larger contraption in the middle?

What's the wire running up to the caulked area? Is it heat tape or something else?
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

Ok, so maybe not as expensive as I thought? I thought all the brass was the backflow preventer. It is a wire. To what I am unsure...
livesoft
Posts: 86075
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by livesoft »

See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 4 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.

If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
Last edited by livesoft on Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
FrugalInvestor
Posts: 6214
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by FrugalInvestor »

traumadoc77 wrote:Ok, so maybe not as expensive as I thought? I thought all the brass was the backflow preventer. It is a wire. To what I am unsure...
the green handles are shut off valves. the handle is parallel to the pipe it is in the 'on' position. If it's perpendicular to the pipe as where you circle the crack it's 'off.' I would think that once all the water is blown out of that section between the two valves that both should be turned off.

The reason I asked about the wire is that if it's heat tape it should probably be wrapped around the pipe and insulated which would prevent this from happening in the future. I would think that the portion of the pipe from the house to the circled shutoff would be subject to freezing even after the rest of the pipe is purged of water unless there's another shutoff under the house or somewhere else.

The wire It may be something else. You could probably figure it out by looking where it goes to outside the house.

Link to heat tape (heat trace) explanation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_heat ... protection
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
livesoft
Posts: 86075
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by livesoft »

The wire could be a simple attempt at grounding.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
FrugalInvestor
Posts: 6214
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by FrugalInvestor »

livesoft wrote:See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 5 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.

If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
I have something similar with a couple of connectors where I can hook-up a quick disconnect from my air compressor hose. Once under pressure opening the ball valves blows all the water out. I've seen situations where the just letting the water run out leaves internal pockets of water which ends up freezing and breaking a pipe, valve or other portion of the system.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
User avatar
FrugalInvestor
Posts: 6214
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by FrugalInvestor »

livesoft wrote:The wire could be a simple attempt at grounding.
Yes, but it doesn't look large enough and ground wires don't require insulation, which it appears to have. If it is a ground wire it should either connect to the pipe or to a grounding rod. Where does it go outside? What are the markings on the insulation?
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
User avatar
vitaflo
Posts: 1905
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by vitaflo »

If you didn't properly turn off the water for the system inside your house (or the valve in the house doesn't close properly), water is going to fill up the pipe up to the closed valve that is circled in your photo. That would lead to a crack. If that section of pipe was never drained properly in the first place (which is possible since that valve is closed), that would do the same thing.
User avatar
mhc
Posts: 5257
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:18 pm
Location: NoCo

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by mhc »

Make friends with someone who knows a lot about house repairs/maintenance and ask him to explain to you the proper way to maintain your sprinkler system.

I have a couple of friends at work who are my go to people when I have questions like this or need help around the house.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by Cosmo »

livesoft wrote:See all those small ball valves in the photo? There are 4 of them. Winterizing of this bit of kit is simply opening all those valves with a screwdriver and letting the water drain out (after closing off the upstream shutoff valves). Then open the downstream big valve. Leave all those valves open until you need to water the yard.

If there is residual water left, no problem as it has a place to expand into in case of freezing if you have left the valves open.
Exactly. The key is to leave the valves open so that no pressure builds if any left over water freezes.
HoosierJim
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by HoosierJim »

Couple of things...

If two pipe wrenches are NOT used - you can stress the piping and fitting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBuEmE3sDI. Through some law of physics, the most expensive item usually breaks.

Next, I always use high point bleeds (for air to get out) and low point drains (to let the water out)

Finally, I would open the union near the house with the "in house" valve closed. If the "in house" valve leaks (evenly slightly) and the piping outside is slightly slanted towards the right side, water will fill between house the preventor.

http://www.backflowpreventer.com/media/ ... Manual.pdf
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

Thanks for all the replies. I paid the irrigation service to winterize it. It sounds as if it wasn't done properly. Which if I didn't understand what was being done or not done is on me... fun of house ownership :oops:

I'll see what the guy says and call a new company to service it I think.
RetiredIn2011
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by RetiredIn2011 »

A friend that installed my system told me that this once happened at his house. He had blown the system out in the Fall and then found the damage in the Spring. It turns out that the shutoff valve to the system was failing. It would slowly allow water to leak into the pipe to the backflow preventer. So "yes" the system was properly winterized but something else in the system failed. He replaced the valve and things were fine after that.
livesoft
Posts: 86075
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by livesoft »

^If one leaves the little ball valves open, then one can see if water is dripping out indicating another leaky valve. A problem with leaving the ball valves open is that a spider might build a web/nest there or a mud dauber might fill it up. Of course, one can and should "un-winterize" the system and check for those things in the Spring.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
jef
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:35 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by jef »

I remove mine every winter and put it in the garage. It takes about one minute to remove or reinstall it. I'm pretty sure every house in my nieghborhood does the same thing. I don't do anything else to winterize the system and have not had freezing issues for the 8 years i have been here. For reference, this is in Arkansas.
SimonJester
Posts: 2500
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by SimonJester »

As others have pointed out you need to make sure your have shut off water to the system from inside the house. Follow the feed pipe back and see if there is another shutoff valve. If you find there is not another shutoff valve inside the house, hire a plumber to install one when they replace the outside shutoff valve.

Welcome to the joys of home ownership, almost every year I have to mess with the irrigation system. This was the very first thing I had to fix when I moved into my house as well. It was all shutoff and winterized when we did the home inspection so we didn't find out it leaked until after we moved in.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
HoosierJim
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by HoosierJim »

Add one of these inside your house after your existing valve (if there is room) - between existing house valve and the backflow preventer
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LEGEND-VALVE ... /203581009

Then close the existing valve first, then open the drain, letting all the water leak out, then close the new valve.
This is called "belt" and "suspenders"


---X---Xd----<<<>>>>

where x is your existing valve,
Xd is new ball valve with drain
and <<<>>> is the backflow preventer.
User avatar
Info_Hound
Posts: 421
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:47 am
Location: Threw a dart in a map and moved

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by Info_Hound »

FrugalInvestor wrote:
traumadoc77 wrote:upper mid west
]
You have a lot of little nipples on there which are used to get the water blown out of the system (and prevent it from freezing). I'd guess that your guy didn't get all the water out when he winterized it. This would be my guess as well. I have someone come in the late Fall and use a large air compressor (connecting to the little nipple valves that are in your picture) and blow the main unit and all the water lines clear. Then I cover the unit with an insulated bag that is water resistant until Spring.

The area you have circled looks to be the shutoff valve though. Isn't the backflow preventer the larger contraption in the middle? In this picture it is.

What's the wire running up to the caulked area? Is it heat tape or something else?
Looks like something not associated with the irrigation unit.

I've been told the back valve is the most expensive part on the unit. Our winters get down to -20 at night sometimes and any water left in the irrigation unit will freeze and crack it somewhere.
Topic Author
traumadoc77
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: Irrigation system question

Post by traumadoc77 »

There is a shut off in the basement, which is off since last fall. Guy was supposed to come out yesterday but no showed :annoyed
Post Reply