Always understand taxes do not trust software

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dbltrbl
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Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by dbltrbl »

Facts.

Turbo tax deluxe refund $ 44.00 Federal State taxes $ 902 due

Tax Act Free Refund $ 1019 No state Taxes computed by me.

State tax done by hand refund $ 99.00
[color=#FF0000]
[b][u]Moral of story, understand and do taxes on paper. All numbers were entered same on both software.[/color][/u][/b]

Guess is Turbo tax Deluxe even down load version did not have Schedule D with lower capital gains tax and state did not subtract retirement income.
jebmke
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by jebmke »

I have said this before. When you enter data in a tax program you should already know what should show up on what line of the 1040. If you don't, you have no way to check whether you did the job correctly or not. The software is just a tool. If it becomes a crutch, you are in trouble.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
JW-Retired
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by JW-Retired »

You must have answered one or more of the interview questions wrong. Or entered some of the 1099 data incorrectly. Or something.
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pshonore
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by pshonore »

Or possibly forgot to indicate your retirement income was a pension, military, etc.
stingray5688
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by stingray5688 »

i found that some of the questions were phrased a bit differently which caused me to answer differently and get different results. for my specific situation, it had to do with deducting education expenses (lifetime learning credit).

however, i also did them 'by hand' in excel to know roughly what i should be getting back.

makes you wonder about the people that compare multiple tax softwares and choose the one that gives them the biggest refund :twisted:
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sscritic
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sscritic »

But if mistakes were made, where were they made? Are mistakes on paper more common than mistakes in answering interview questions? Tax software is good at doing arithmetic, but I think fails in other aspects. In another thread, a poster wanted to know why certain lines were blank on one of the forms. The answer was on the form itself ("fill this section only if conditions" or "if conditions, skip lines x to y and go to y+1"), but the tax software didn't by default show the actual form, and the poster didn't realize that reading the form itself without the tax software interfering would be of help.
gd
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by gd »

Although the amounts might be small, this will obviously affect your behavior for years, if not a lifetime. Why not print out the returns for the two tax prep programs, compare everything side by side, dig down into the differences, and resolve the issue? And post the results, since you've already occupied our time with the problem. It is almost certainly an issue about how you have interpreted questions or entries-- not relevant for random readers, but something *you* need to understand.
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dbltrbl
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by dbltrbl »

GD,

I did that. TT did not take our traditional IRA and than immediate conversion to ROTH as KY does not tax retirement income at any age up to 41500.00. Turbo tax never even asked that question. On federal. I think it is because this deluxe version did not use lower capital gains tax (Even though all only MF gains). I read in some other posts that TT deluxe does not include Schedule D.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by jebmke »

dbltrbl wrote: I read in some other posts that TT deluxe does not include Schedule D.
Since you have a copy of TT Deluxe, there is no need to guess here. Go to forms view and see.

I would be surprised if Schedule D is not there. It has been a couple years since I looked under the hood on TT but my basic version a couple of years ago had SD.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Wagnerjb
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Wagnerjb »

jebmke wrote:I have said this before. When you enter data in a tax program you should already know what should show up on what line of the 1040. If you don't, you have no way to check whether you did the job correctly or not. The software is just a tool. If it becomes a crutch, you are in trouble.
I strongly support this statement. I am a CPA and I cannot tell you how many times I have found an incorrect result in TurboTax. The problem isn't the Turbotax software, it is confusion on how/where to enter data.

Best wishes.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by cherijoh »

dbltrbl wrote:Facts.

Turbo tax deluxe refund $ 44.00 Federal State taxes $ 902 due

Tax Act Free Refund $ 1019 No state Taxes computed by me.

State tax done by hand refund $ 99.00

Moral of story, understand and do taxes on paper. All numbers were entered same on both software.


Guess is Turbo tax Deluxe even down load version did not have Schedule D with lower capital gains tax and state did not subtract retirement income.
TurboTax does schedule D correctly. There is a form that is equivalent to the capital gains worksheet that will show you the difference in tax. Are you sure you entered qualified dividends correctly?

I agree with Wagnerjb - it is easy to skip over a check box or to breeze through an explanation. I always compare results to prior year to understand any differences - higher/lower income, itemized deductions, withholding? This sanity check helps to guard against input errors.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

When my dad was alive, he ran the family tax prep business. He was an alpha tester for all the software companies (turbotax, drake, etc). He would do taxes by software and by hand. He found numerous errors every single year and reported them back to the software companies for correction.

I guess it's why I have not used software myself. My dad's no longer around to fix their mistakes. I'm sure there are many other experienced tax preparers who are alpha testers.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by nisiprius »

1) I don't think I've ever owned any version of any tax software that did not include Schedule D, going back to MacInTax in 1985.

2) By the time you get to something as complicated as the long form and Schedule D, simply entering data accurately and complete becomes a nontrivial job. dbltrbl, I'll bet a nickel your issues are with data entry errors, not software functions.

3) That said, something I have trouble with is that I really prefer to enter directly on the forms rather than via the "interview." However, there often seem to be bugs, or at least difficult-to-resolve issues, with doing it that way even though the software I use (H&R Block) claims you should be able to do it. There are, for example, some pieces of data that can only be entered in the interview--the spaces on the form are calculations, and if you override them you can't efile, and the data on them flows through from an interview answer. Furthermore, things in the interview are arrange illogically and you can't skip anything--for example, even if you know that you are not going to be itemizing, if I'm remembering correctly the only place you get the chance to enter state estimated tax payments is deep in the section that deals with itemized deductions. In short, even though I hate it, I decided a few years ago that the only safe way to enter the data is the interview, the whole interview, and nothing but the interview.

4) My last step is a cross-check. I have a spreadsheet that calculates what I guess I would call "key spot-checks." One of the parts of it is that I enter every item of income, directly from the W2's and 1099's on which they are reported... and a few other things, like all of my tax payments. I don't try to calculate taxes, but I set up the spreadsheet to calculate a few easy totals--grand total of all income, AGI, and so forth, and some other key intermediate lines on Form 1040 and the main state form. If there is a discrepancy--and there usually is--I don't file until I have resolved it.

There are two points here. One is the independent calculation. The other is that I figure that the great big no-no is failing to report income, and getting a cross check on grand total of all income is a good way to make sure I haven't overlooked anything, and a good way of stay away from any big trouble.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by ubermax »

I use TT but personally I feel that everyone should have a good understanding of the tax code rules, at least as they pertain to your own situation, and then be able to do reasonability checks on the TT output.

But I also know that many people take a wild stab at answering TT's questions and never check the output - each to his own I guess .
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Kevin M »

dbltrbl wrote: Guess is Turbo tax Deluxe even down load version did not have Schedule D with lower capital gains tax
Not correct. TT Deluxe desktop has all the forms, and handles Schedule D fine if you enter data correctly. I did several 2013 returns with Schedule D using TT Deluxe Desktop.

Although I enter the data using the interview, I always check the forms thoroughly and make sure I understand what's going on. I flip between forms mode and step-by-step mode frequently as I work on the return.

As others have suggested, it would be useful to view the forms generated by the different programs to track down the differences.

As has been mentioned, for some areas answering the interview questions correctly can be tricky, so for anything other than simple situations it's important to have a reasonable understanding of the way taxes work (relevant to your situation); so I agree with your basic point. I know someone who complained about the higher income tax they paid related to their backdoor Roth transactions for 2012. A quick look at their 1040 indicated they had not done it correctly. They had made the same mistake on their 2011 returns, so I helped them amend 2011 and 2012 returns. Then they made the same mistake on their 2013 returns (which I was able to help them correct before filing)!

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sarahjane
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sarahjane »

TT Deluxe this year wouldn't handle CGs. Necessary to upgrade to Premiere.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by fareastwarriors »

I used to do TT and Taxact and arrived at the same number before filing. I got lazy this year and only did TaxAct...
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by jebmke »

sarahjane wrote:TT Deluxe this year wouldn't handle CGs. Necessary to upgrade to Premiere.
According to Intuit, Deluxe has Schedule D and Form 8949.

https://turbotax.intuit.com/personal-ta ... deluxe.jsp
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Kevin M »

sarahjane wrote:TT Deluxe this year wouldn't handle CGs. Necessary to upgrade to Premiere.
Only true for online version, not desktop version. Desktop version includes all forms it has included in the past (e.g., C, D, E). There's a long, long thread about this.

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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by grabiner »

nisiprius wrote:2) By the time you get to something as complicated as the long form and Schedule D, simply entering data accurately and complete becomes a nontrivial job. dbltrbl, I'll bet a nickel your issues are with data entry errors, not software functions.
And that's why I use tax software. The first time I filled out a Schedule D by hand, I entered something wrong, and didn't recognize the error until I looked at the final numbers and saw I was paying $5000 in tax on $1000 on capital gains. Tax software mostly protects against this type of error. (I did encounter two bugs in TaxAct in 2010 which affected a small number of part-year NJ residents, so I know to check the data myself as well.)
3) That said, something I have trouble with is that I really prefer to enter directly on the forms rather than via the "interview." However, there often seem to be bugs, or at least difficult-to-resolve issues, with doing it that way even though the software I use (H&R Block) claims you should be able to do it. There are, for example, some pieces of data that can only be entered in the interview--the spaces on the form are calculations, and if you override them you can't efile, and the data on them flows through from an interview answer. Furthermore, things in the interview are arrange illogically and you can't skip anything--for example, even if you know that you are not going to be itemizing, if I'm remembering correctly the only place you get the chance to enter state estimated tax payments is deep in the section that deals with itemized deductions. In short, even though I hate it, I decided a few years ago that the only safe way to enter the data is the interview, the whole interview, and nothing but the interview.
I go through the interview first, then check the numbers on the forms. I haven't used H&R Block in a long time, but in both TurboTax and TaxAct, if you click an entry on a form which is a calculated value, there will be a link to the data source, and you can go to that data source (often a worksheet) to make the entry there.

However, I have needed to do some overrides. For example, TaxAct requires all interest items to be on a 1099-INT (possibly fake if you didn't get one from the bank). In NJ, HSA interest is taxable, so TaxAct expects to see a 1099-INT reporting this interest. There isn't one, and if I create a fake one, the interest also appears incorrectly on my federal tax form. (I can choose to make it tax-exempt, but that is still wrong, as the tax-exempt interest is reported on the federal form and affects some other items.) Therefore, I must override.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Mudpuppy »

grabiner wrote:
nisiprius wrote:2) By the time you get to something as complicated as the long form and Schedule D, simply entering data accurately and complete becomes a nontrivial job. dbltrbl, I'll bet a nickel your issues are with data entry errors, not software functions.
And that's why I use tax software. The first time I filled out a Schedule D by hand, I entered something wrong, and didn't recognize the error until I looked at the final numbers and saw I was paying $5000 in tax on $1000 on capital gains. Tax software mostly protects against this type of error. (I did encounter two bugs in TaxAct in 2010 which affected a small number of part-year NJ residents, so I know to check the data myself as well.)
3) That said, something I have trouble with is that I really prefer to enter directly on the forms rather than via the "interview." However, there often seem to be bugs, or at least difficult-to-resolve issues, with doing it that way even though the software I use (H&R Block) claims you should be able to do it. There are, for example, some pieces of data that can only be entered in the interview--the spaces on the form are calculations, and if you override them you can't efile, and the data on them flows through from an interview answer. Furthermore, things in the interview are arrange illogically and you can't skip anything--for example, even if you know that you are not going to be itemizing, if I'm remembering correctly the only place you get the chance to enter state estimated tax payments is deep in the section that deals with itemized deductions. In short, even though I hate it, I decided a few years ago that the only safe way to enter the data is the interview, the whole interview, and nothing but the interview.
I go through the interview first, then check the numbers on the forms. I haven't used H&R Block in a long time, but in both TurboTax and TaxAct, if you click an entry on a form which is a calculated value, there will be a link to the data source, and you can go to that data source (often a worksheet) to make the entry there.

However, I have needed to do some overrides. For example, TaxAct requires all interest items to be on a 1099-INT (possibly fake if you didn't get one from the bank). In NJ, HSA interest is taxable, so TaxAct expects to see a 1099-INT reporting this interest. There isn't one, and if I create a fake one, the interest also appears incorrectly on my federal tax form. (I can choose to make it tax-exempt, but that is still wrong, as the tax-exempt interest is reported on the federal form and affects some other items.) Therefore, I must override.
I've had the same experience as nisiprius with H&R Block. In my case, I had naively entered the property taxes paid that was listed on my 1098 during the H&R Block interview process. My area puts non-deductible costs on the property tax bill like garbage and sewer fees. I was expecting a way to override the amount later on with the actual deductible portion, but no such opportunity was presented. I tried to override the entry in the actual Schedule A form and was told that would prevent e-filing. Basically, if it's a grey box on the form, that's something generated by the interview process and H&R Block seems to throw a small fit if you override it. Many of the forms do have manual entry boxes below the interview generated grey boxes, but not all of them do.

I am now debating what is the better approach for my situation: (1) don't put anything on the property taxes part of the 1098 interview dialog and use one of the manual entry real estate tax boxes on the Schedule A form to report the actual deductible amount or (2) put the amount reported on the 1098 during the interview and use the manual entry boxes to subtract the sewage and garbage fees. It warned about putting a negative number in the manual entry boxes on my last test of these manual entry boxes, but did not say that would prevent e-filing.

Usually I have this all figured out back in February, but it's been crazy at work these days and this has fallen to the wayside (along with getting a good night's sleep). At least this is the last nut to crack before e-filing. All the H&R Block numbers agree with my spreadsheet calculations. It's just a matter of how to account for the difference between what's on my 1098 for real estate taxes and what's actually deductible.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by jebmke »

Mudpuppy wrote:It's just a matter of how to account for the difference between what's on my 1098 for real estate taxes and what's actually deductible.
Just report the deductible part. I've done hundreds of these and it doesn't matter that the amount on Schedule A disagrees with the 1098.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by likegarden »

I always do taxes by hand on paper first, so I understand how numbers are arrived, and that also checks if I have all my receipts. While I do that I compare results to those of the previous year. Then I run TurboTax requiring that both calculations should have the same results. I usually discover problems with my manual calculation in work sheets. My tax calculations are relatively simple.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Iorek »

I always print out my return and see where my entries are reflected and if I can follow it along, but I don't try to do it from scratch.

I also don't e-file because I prefer to have a record of exactly what information was submitted to the IRS (and occasionally I might have to override a field for some reason).
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sscritic »

Mudpuppy wrote: I am now debating what is the better approach for my situation: (1) don't put anything on the property taxes part of the 1098 interview dialog and use one of the manual entry real estate tax boxes on the Schedule A form to report the actual deductible amount or (2) put the amount reported on the 1098 during the interview and use the manual entry boxes to subtract the sewage and garbage fees.
Let's see if I have this straight.

1) you know what taxes are deductible
2) an entry point asks you for taxes paid
3) you know they really mean deductible taxes
4) you debate internally two different ways of answering the question incorrectly

What ever happened to putting the correct number for the deductible taxes in the box that asks for taxes paid in the interview?

No matter what you do, the deduction that shows up on Schedule A won't match the 1098 your lender sent the IRS.

P.S. I knew there was a reason I pay my own property taxes (several reasons, in fact).
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sscritic »

Another P.S. The lender isn't even required to fill out box 4. Look at a real 1098 from the IRS, not the fake one your lender sent you.
Box 4. The interest recipient may use this box to give you other information, such as the address of the property that secures the debt, real estate taxes, or insurance paid from escrow.
May is permissive. Such as means they could tell you other junk and leave the taxes part out. Box 4 is essentially meaningless, except for the clueless who don't know the taxes they have paid. You aren't because you do.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sscritic »

An even better read is to read the instructions for the 1098. Even if they fill the box with every last detail, the IRS might not even know it. There is no mismatch!
You do not have to report to the IRS any information provided in this box.
Now I admit that I am reading the 2014 instructions, not the 2013 instructions, and that there were some changes (already) made, so you may want to find the 2013 1098 instructions and read them for yourself.
Mortgage insurance premiums paid or accrued after December 31, 2013, are no longer eligible to be treated as interest paid by the payer/borrower. Box 4 on Form 1098, formerly used for reporting these premiums paid or accrued, has been reconfigured for providing other information. The old box 4 reporting instructions have been removed.
There it is. What I just told you applies to next year. I will let you read what applies to this year (tax wise, aka 2013).

Even my previous post about what a real 1098 has on it might be incorrect. I wonder what the opposite of outdated is. I guess my information was indated, and you will have to wait for next year for it to be accurate.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sscritic »

So in 2013, box 5 is what box 4 will be in 2014. So it's just what I said, only using this year's box.
Box 5. Blank Box
Enter any other item you wish to report to the payer, such as the address of the property that secures the debt, real estate taxes, insurance, or if you are a collection agent, the name of the person for whom you collected the interest. You do not have to report to the IRS any information provided in this box.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i1098--2013.pdf

None of it counts.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by KyleAAA »

If I can't trust the software and have to do it by hand anyway, there's no point in using the software. It's better for me to just trust the software and deal with any problems that crop up later. Much less hassle that way, even if there are eventually problems I have to deal with. Missing out on a few hundred dollars worth of refund checks over a decade or so is a very, very small price to pay.

I can't find the source, but I distinctly remember reading somewhere that tax software dramatically decreases errors vs doing it by hand.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by sarahjane »

Kevin M wrote:
sarahjane wrote:TT Deluxe this year wouldn't handle CGs. Necessary to upgrade to Premiere.
Only true for online version, not desktop version. Desktop version includes all forms it has included in the past (e.g., C, D, E). There's a long, long thread about this.


Well the online version is what's available through Vanguard.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Kevin M »

^The desktop version also is available through Vanguard. That's where I got it.

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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Wagnerjb »

KyleAAA wrote:If I can't trust the software and have to do it by hand anyway, there's no point in using the software. It's better for me to just trust the software and deal with any problems that crop up later. Much less hassle that way, even if there are eventually problems I have to deal with. Missing out on a few hundred dollars worth of refund checks over a decade or so is a very, very small price to pay.

I can't find the source, but I distinctly remember reading somewhere that tax software dramatically decreases errors vs doing it by hand.
Kyle: I have a very basic Excel spreadsheet that I built, with the income tax line items that apply to me*. I use it to estimate my taxes, to manage my taxes, and to make sure I pay enough through payroll deduction to avoid penalties. Each year I tweak the tax brackets to accomodate the inflation adjustments. This spreadsheet serves as my check on TurboTax. I have no need - nor any interest - in filling out forms by hand.

* It can accomodate AMT and the phase-outs of itemized deductions and personal exemptions, so it is sufficient for quite a range of "what if" calculations.

Best wishes.
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by magazinewriter »

likegarden wrote:I always do taxes by hand on paper first, so I understand how numbers are arrived, and that also checks if I have all my receipts. While I do that I compare results to those of the previous year. Then I run TurboTax requiring that both calculations should have the same results. I usually discover problems with my manual calculation in work sheets. My tax calculations are relatively simple.
I do the same, print out all the IRS forms and do it by hand and then do it on TurboTax and see if it matches. This year it did.

When I first thought I'd have to buy TT Premier for Schedule. D and Form 8949, I considered just mailing in my hand-written tax forms, just like in the olden days. But I was able to get TT Basic download version free from a bank I use and it had all the forms.
wilked
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by wilked »

For what it's worth, I used this for the first time and found it excellent

http://www.excel1040.com

It doesn't do everything, but the things it doesn't do you can always do by hand and add them to it
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Bustoff
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Re: Always understand taxes do not trust software

Post by Bustoff »

This year the TT importing feature was not capturing my tax-exempt interest. I had to manually enter it under the Dividends on 1099-DIV section.
I just recieved a letter from the IRS yesterday but didn't open it yet.Didn't want to spoil the Memorial Day weekend.
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