Purchasing physical gold??
Purchasing physical gold??
For those of you who practice this, where to you usually buy? I would like some leads to follow. Thank you
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
The only physical gold (and silver) I ever bought was on ebay in 1999 thru 2001. The auctions vaired wildly but many times I got coins below the current spot price. I tried a few months ago and all the bids were much higher than the spot price. Did you try googling gold and sifing thru the results. Premiums over spot vary considerably.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Here’s a link to a forum with a number of discussions about buying physical gold:
http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/gold/
John
http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/gold/
John
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I have never used them, but I hear they are reputable: http://www.kitco.com/
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
http://www.coloradogold.com
Don Strott and his team are the best in the business - and enjoy Don's blog when you visit the website
Don Strott and his team are the best in the business - and enjoy Don's blog when you visit the website
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- abuss368
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Commodities is speculating and not investing.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
tulving, Gainesville coins are two more
- abuss368
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Warren Buffett had an excellent Shareholder note on this last year. It is well worth the time to read.Rainier wrote:Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
He mentioned it again this year, just referring to only looking at the price, not the income
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I used Border Gold for my Maple Leafs. But my next step will be to dig for buried tins of the stuff on my property.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Apmex and Montana Rarities. Tulving is supposedly way behind in his deliveries and is not recommended.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
But safer than bitcoins.abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I don't know how widespread it but if you Google something like "eBay counterfeit coin" you will get lots of hits. It would be best to stick with reputable dealers.leonidas wrote:The only physical gold (and silver) I ever bought was on ebay in 1999 thru 2001. The auctions vaired wildly but many times I got coins below the current spot price. I tried a few months ago and all the bids were much higher than the spot price. Did you try googling gold and sifing thru the results. Premiums over spot vary considerably.
Before you buy be sure to know about the special "collectable" capital gains tax that you will be paying when you sell it.
As with any investment it would be good to take the time to write down just why you are buying it. Once you have a firm list of goals you may find that there are better ways to try to accomplish those goals.
- abuss368
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Indeed. That was good.chaz wrote:But safer than bitcoins.abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I have bought from APMEX in the past. Now I drive to Maryland (about an hour drive) once/year to buy them at a coin exchange. If I buy in Virginia where I live, I owe a total of 11% in bullion tax. In Maryland, anything over $1000 causes no bullion tax. I get them as cheap or cheaper as APMEX with no shipping.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Search for bullion wholesalers. I use one local to me and there are only a few in New England. Look into taxes. In Mass, if you buy less than $1000 in bullion, there's 6.25% sales tax. If you buy over $1000, there is no tax.
I watch Apmex for prices and specials but so far have bought (over $1k) in silver bullion a couple times locally.
I watch Apmex for prices and specials but so far have bought (over $1k) in silver bullion a couple times locally.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Buying gold/silver depends on the state you live in. In some states there is a sales tax on top of the commission fee, that can add up to 12 - 15 % over spot price (in total).
Also think of buying gold/silver as buying car or home owners insurance, not as an investment. It's there in case the entire economy goes to pot.
The person I dealt with said to consider this in case of economic collapse.......
1. Have a stash of "silver " dimes for purchasing small items (food, milk, etc.).. (If all you have is large bars, who will have change for a loaf of bread)
2. A stash of "silver" quarters or 50 cents for meat, hamburger larger, liquor etc.
3. "Silver" dollars for fuel, or larger purchases
4. 10 - 100 ounce bars of silver for next level of purchases
5. Gold for the final level.
Remember, this is for economic collapse, not for investment purchases.
An online place to consider is www.silvertowne.com. It's a retailer that has been in the same location in eastern Indiana for over 50 years. There is also different prices depending on the country of origin the coins come from.
Also think of buying gold/silver as buying car or home owners insurance, not as an investment. It's there in case the entire economy goes to pot.
The person I dealt with said to consider this in case of economic collapse.......
1. Have a stash of "silver " dimes for purchasing small items (food, milk, etc.).. (If all you have is large bars, who will have change for a loaf of bread)
2. A stash of "silver" quarters or 50 cents for meat, hamburger larger, liquor etc.
3. "Silver" dollars for fuel, or larger purchases
4. 10 - 100 ounce bars of silver for next level of purchases
5. Gold for the final level.
Remember, this is for economic collapse, not for investment purchases.
An online place to consider is www.silvertowne.com. It's a retailer that has been in the same location in eastern Indiana for over 50 years. There is also different prices depending on the country of origin the coins come from.
- TheTimeLord
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
But a gold mining or commodity company is investing?Rainier wrote:Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. |
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
In addition to all the other problems inherent in owning physical gold, this article suggests that even the market price of the metal itself is unreliable as a true "market" price.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... ation.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... ation.html
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
check out golddealer.com the name of company is California numismatics. You can see current buy and sell prices and get info about common and rare precious metal coins, bars etc.They are transparent and straight forward in dealings and helpful without pressuring or hype. Good Hunting
- dratkinson
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.
Gold does not pay dividends.
How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
Gold does not pay dividends.
How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Dr. Bernstein has done the math. Read for yourself.dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.
Gold does not pay dividends.
How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/0adhoc/harry.htm
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Diversification in action.dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.
Gold does not pay dividends.
How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
http://www.stableinvesting.com/p/long-t ... mance.html
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I've used bullion direct for about ten years with no issues so far.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I go to Istanbul or Florence or Macy's . I buy gold and hang it on DW. Pays excellent in-kind non taxable dividends.
But YM or your DW may vary
But YM or your DW may vary
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
If you are purchasing small quanties, look for a coin show in your area. There are usually a few numismatists who are also silver and gold bullion buyers and sellers . The dealers know each other and you could ask someone selling coins who at the show would be selling gold bullion. Check the market prices on line the day of the show to get an idea of fair buy and sell prices.
If I were doing this I would only consider buying 1 oz or 1/2 oz standard issue "coins" like the Canadian maple leaf.
If I were doing this I would only consider buying 1 oz or 1/2 oz standard issue "coins" like the Canadian maple leaf.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
The OP's original question was how best to buy gold given that he wanted to do so. One possibility would be to buy GLD, which is a fund that is backed by physical gold, instead of buying gold directly. (I don't like gold as an investment, but this was the question)
Depending on your reasons for wanting to own gold, shares of gold mining stocks (GDX, GDXJ) represent ownership interests in actual companies that earn profits, rather than a metal that produces no income stream and which is inherently speculative. (Again, I'm not recommending gold-mining shares... just throwing it out there assuming investing in gold is a given for the OP)
Depending on your reasons for wanting to own gold, shares of gold mining stocks (GDX, GDXJ) represent ownership interests in actual companies that earn profits, rather than a metal that produces no income stream and which is inherently speculative. (Again, I'm not recommending gold-mining shares... just throwing it out there assuming investing in gold is a given for the OP)
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Tulving just collapsed. Possible big fraud / scam. Tulving had delivery issues for the last 6 months, so lots of people sent money to Tulving, and got nothing.jacoavlu wrote:tulving, Gainesville coins are two more
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O.C. gold-coin dealer closes after complaints of delays
March 6, 2014
An Orange County coin dealer who has been accused by frustrated customers nationwide of delaying numerous gold- and silver-coin shipments has closed shop, according to a posting on the company's Costa Mesa office window.
“The Tulving Company has closed. More information the week of March 10th,” reads the sign, which was seen Thursday at the firm's headquarters.
It appears a flood of complaints against The Tulving Company and owner Hannes Tulving Jr. led to a state investigation.
During at least the past year, a surge of customers as far away as Maryland have complained to his company and the Better Business Bureau about late or missing orders of rare, precious-metals coins. The BBB has fielded more than 150 complaints since last summer and received 5,600-plus inquiries since 2010.
Some customers have reported losing tens of thousands of dollars in investments, leading many to complain at online coin forums and to California authorities. A few have filed lawsuits.
Kevin Pyle, a military veteran in Eldersburg, Md., says he's out more than $24,000 for 20, 1-ounce Canadian Maple Leaf gold coins that never made it from Tulving's office to his home.
Pyle, 45, placed the order in December and was promised it would arrive within three weeks, he said. Once five weeks passed, he ramped up his calls to the company but got nowhere.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tulv ... -coin.html
At least two customers, one in Arizona and another in South Dakota, have filed lawsuits:
• South Dakota resident Kenneth W. Stach says the company has failed to deliver 240 gold coins to him, for which he paid more than $318,000 in mid-November, despite multiple requests for the coins, court documents show.
• Alfred J. Olsen, of Phoenix, says his $107,000 order of 80 Gold Maple Leaf coins was supposed to be shipped within a week of ordering them in October, based on a lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Arizona. When the suit was filed in the fall, Olson had yet to receive the coins.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coin ... -gold.html
It should also be noted that the owners of "Gainesville Coins" have a shady past. Do a google search for Mark Yaffe and Alan Yaffe, and their other gold firm "National Gold Exchange" which collapsed under a mountain of fraud.
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/sto ... ily25.html
..in filings in bankruptcy court, Miami bankruptcy trustee Joseph Luzinski said Yaffe routinely shuffled around his gold inventory to inflate their accounts; silently owned an "independent" coin grader to prop up values; funded personal coffers with "large sums of money" from the company account; and paid his wife and father $500,000 in two years of salaries for doing little to no work.
To evade detection of his "reckless and wasteful spending," Luzinski wrote, Yaffe filed false invoices and coached employees "to shred business documents on a daily basis."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/r ... on/2156338
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Gold/Silver is very good for keeping big government in the dark. They have no idea who has what and how much they have. Depending on where you live in this country, this can be an important reason to hold physical gold/silver. As others have mentioned it might have value in the event of an economic collapse although guns and animals/crops will probably be more valuable.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
When I sat down with my bullion wholesaler, he explained one advantage of silver/gold US coins. If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government. Now, I have no reason to bring large quantities of cash out of the US, but it sort of illustrates how transportable these are.
Now, let me take the counter point. Have you ever picked up $10,000 face value of silver?
Now, let me take the counter point. Have you ever picked up $10,000 face value of silver?
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Nice story, but not true. I'd hate to lose $10,000 face value of gold because of that. It is the value of the coins, not the face value. See the customs FAQ:If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail ... uggested/1
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Buysider wrote:Nice story, but not true. I'd hate to lose $10,000 face value of gold because of that. It is the value of the coins, not the face value. See the customs FAQ:If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail ... uggested/1
You mean a person selling gold to a sucker would LIE?? I'm shocked SHOCKED!!!
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
There is no doubt that gold is not a good purchase for the long haul. However, it can be very good during a short haul if you are able to make the correct decision about getting in and getting out. I suspect that it is an area where irrationality drives its price more than with other possible investing options which makes it somewhat easier to predict its movements for those who market time. Even more significant in my opinion is the divergence in price between platinum and gold at different points in time. I have had small amounts of both, never more than about a pound combined at a time, and have experienced significant profits though always purchasing more as a known speculation than for investing purposes. Some folks here obviously have a steel will and can follow essentially all the Boglehead concepts consistently. I am weaker and occasionally require submitting to a "wild hair" in order to avoid a more destructive mistake such as frequent buying and selling.
Tim
Tim
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I love how all the rational, objective people on this forum go wild whenever anyone mentions an inert metal that just so happens to have the longest track record of any asset class in the world.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
People on this forum go wild when someone mentions farming with sticks? I guess I must have missed those threads.Professor Emeritus wrote:so does farming with sticks to plow the ground. So what?technovelist wrote:I love how all the rational, objective people on this forum go wild whenever anyone mentions an inert metal that just so happens to have the longest track record of any asset class in the world.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Hmm, but what about the answer to the OP's question? I don't like gold as an investment but I'm interested in answers to what would be the best way/form to hold physical gold IF one was bent on buying it.
Are there differences in terms of what grade of gold to buy? (Are all kinds of physical gold the same?) Does gold jewelry hold its value less well than gold coins?
Are there differences in terms of what grade of gold to buy? (Are all kinds of physical gold the same?) Does gold jewelry hold its value less well than gold coins?
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
For most people it is probably best to buy recognized coins, e.g., American Eagles, Canadian Maple Leafs, South African Krugerrands. Whichever of these has the lowest premium (price above the gold content) is generally best for investment as you get more gold for your money.Caduceus wrote:Hmm, but what about the answer to the OP's question? I don't like gold as an investment but I'm interested in answers to what would be the best way/form to hold physical gold IF one was bent on buying it.
Are there differences in terms of what grade of gold to buy? (Are all kinds of physical gold the same?) Does gold jewelry hold its value less well than gold coins?
As for sizes, the 1-oz net weight coins are the best bargain because they have the lowest premiums.
Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I still have my six gold coins (4 bullion, 2 numismatic) that I bought for ~$400 each.
So there! (Nynah! Nynah!)
So there! (Nynah! Nynah!)
pjstack
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (purchasing physical gold).
Please stay on-topic, which is how to purchase gold.
Please stay on-topic, which is how to purchase gold.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I buy most of my Gold and Silver at the local coin shows. Most of them have enough vendors to spur some price competition and I can usually buy at or near spot price.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
In the USA this is true but "Bullion jewelry" is common in other countries. I agree the premium is higher than one oz coins but not much higher. In Cairo and Istanbul you pay about 10% over the bullion price and get about 10% under.technovelist wrote: Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
True, but shouldnt really mess up the sp500 to gold comparison much since both nominal, but yeah, real is always better. the lack of total return will mess it up though, it will understate sp500 relative to gold. Here is (perhaps) a better chart:matto wrote:
I believe your chart, in addition to neglecting dividends, neglects inflation.
http://www.seasoninvestments.com/insigh ... ous-relic/
I must say, offhand, I do not follow the chart, I do not understand the gold numbers.... hmmmm.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I removed a number of off-topic comments, some continuity is lost. The OP is asking where / how to purchase gold.
Please stay on-topic.
Please stay on-topic.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I went to a local coin shop that has been here for years. They look up spot price right there and sell me a mint Eagle or Maple Leaf or K-rand in a plastic case for 50 over spot usually. Then I sell it back to them for spot. But we have no sales tax here and I never bought large quantities.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??
That is a 20% spread, which is at least 5x the spread you would pay for coins in any reasonable quantity. And sometimes there are much lower spreads on coins; for instance, Kitco.com has a sale on Maple Leafs right now with less than 2% spread, so 1/10th of the spread you are quoting on jewelry.Professor Emeritus wrote:In the USA this is true but "Bullion jewelry" is common in other countries. I agree the premium is higher than one oz coins but not much higher. In Cairo and Istanbul you pay about 10% over the bullion price and get about 10% under.technovelist wrote: Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
So if you spent $11,000 on gold jewelry, you could immediately sell it for $9,000. If you spent $10,000 on Maple Leafs at Kitco, you could get about $9,800 if you sold them back right away.
I think most Bogleheads can see which of these is a better deal.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
edited and deleted
wrong thread
wrong thread
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
Does land pay dividends or produce anything? I'm not very big on gold, historically the human race has valued gold, just like it has valued land. I don't think people are crazy if they hold 5 or 10% of their assets in gold.
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
I think you should look into what form you want the gold in, which may help direct you to where to buy it.
i.e. bullion bars, coins (valued for gold, or with collectible value), jewelry, other useful/decorative pieces, securitized/trade-able on a market ?
There are some major pros and cons to holding it in different forms.
The only gold I own was purchased from my dentist and at an electronics store.
i.e. bullion bars, coins (valued for gold, or with collectible value), jewelry, other useful/decorative pieces, securitized/trade-able on a market ?
There are some major pros and cons to holding it in different forms.
The only gold I own was purchased from my dentist and at an electronics store.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
Re: Purchasing physical gold??
You are cherry picking the time interval. A more objective time interval is from the date Nixon made US currency totally fiat (August 1971) when it was worth $35 per ounce to today when it is approximately $1300.dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.
Gold does not pay dividends.
How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
The compounded rate of return is log(1300/35)/45 ~ 8%. That's not great but it is not 0 as you claim.