Avoid Abbreviations

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
Raven2
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:28 am

Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Raven2 »

I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.

So come on guys/gals, please spell out what you mean in the name of effective communications. Thank you.
User avatar
Kosmo
Posts: 1303
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:54 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Kosmo »

While I generally agree with this idea, I disagree here. Ticker symbols are unique and by giving just that everyone knows what you mean. In contrast to abbreviations that are less common or may have multiple meaning, which should be defined first.
User avatar
samsoes
Posts: 2802
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:12 am
Location: Northeast Rat Race

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by samsoes »

Here, here!
This guideline shouldn't apply to just stock symbols, either! Many folks on this site routinely use abbreviations in their conversational text.
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Raven2 wrote:... IE: ...
That is:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, ...
-- Cas., JC I.ii
PJW
User avatar
JMacDonald
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:53 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by JMacDonald »

When do you use i.e., and when do you use e.g., and what do they mean?

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/abbr ... ievseg.htm

Well, I learned something.
Best Wishes, | Joe
technovelist
Posts: 3611
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:02 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by technovelist »

I can't imagine that this applies in fields that have a lot of "well-known" jargon, such as medicine, physics, and investing.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

JMacDonald wrote:When do you use i.e., and when do you use e.g., and what do they mean?

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/abbr ... ievseg.htm

Well, I learned something.
I asked my international colleagues who, with me, were writing for a global audience where English was often a third language:

Use "that is" when you mean "that is," and use "for example" when you mean "for example."

It's bad enough to expect people to recognize English abbreviations. Must they learn Latin ones as well?

PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 52211
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by nisiprius »

Raven2 wrote:I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.

So come on guys/gals, please spell out what you mean in the name of effective communications. Thank you.
IRaven2, if you check the forum, I think you'll find that many regulars here are in complete agreement with you. For example, here, Taylor Larimore wrote "You will get more replies if you will edit your post to include fund names. Few of us have memorized ticker symbols."

I regard using only the ticker symbols as a sort of clubby in-group thing. And it gets even trickier with Vanguard, because most of Vanguard's index funds have three share classes that are frequently used by Bogleheads. For example Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund is offered as an Investor shares mutual fund, VTSMX; an Admiral (lower-cost, $10,000 minimum) shares mutual fund, VTSAX; and an ETF, VTI.

Yes, IMHO we should always give the full name of the fund the first time we mention it--although I plead guilty to omitting the leading "Vanguard" and the trailing "Index Fund" or "Fund" and just referring to "Total Stock."

Various technical fixes have been suggested, I believe someone even experimented with script or plugin that works in some browsers that gives you the name of the fund when you hover over the ticker symbol--not sure what became of it.

One thing that doesn't work is to complain or exhort. If I'm interested in a thread and someone mentions a ticker symbol I don't know, I will just look it up and post the name and ticker symbol.

I think the only thing that is likely to work at all is for lots of people to set a good example.

Do they still do the old bit of, I don't even know the same for this kind of riddle/rebus/joke:

FUNEM?
VFM.
FUNEX?
VFX.
OKMNX.

I sometimes use "OKMNX" as a hypothetical mutual fund ticker symbol, but nobody ever seems to get it.
Last edited by nisiprius on Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

technovelist wrote:I can't imagine that this applies in fields that have a lot of "well-known" jargon, such as medicine, physics, and investing.
From Taylor:
Hi Bogleheads:

I notice that more and more topics contain only ticker symbols without fund or ETF names.

It should be obvious that most of us have not memorized ticker symbols. This means that if we would like to answer your questions we must take the time to look-up the name (because the poster was too lazy). The result is that many Bogleheads will not bother to reply.

If you want a maximum number of replies, please include both the ticker symbol and the fund name.

Thank you.
Thank you, Taylor.

PJW
User avatar
yatesd
Posts: 1040
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:19 am
Location: MD

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by yatesd »

I thought IE was Internet Explorer :wink:
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

yatesd wrote:I thought IE was Internet Explorer :wink:
So, e.g.:

IE, i.e., Internet Explorer?

PJW
User avatar
ogd
Posts: 4876
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:43 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by ogd »

The ticker symbols are useful, definitely. For some fun, try to search a bond fund or other very specific category on Morningstar by name -- you are left trying to guess exactly how they abbreviated it. Is it "Int-tm" or "Interm-tm" or "IT"? Does the state come before or after the term? Is it "Tax-exempt" or "Tx-Ex"?

The best of both worlds would be forum software or a browser extension that underlined and looked up the funds automatically, pulling them up on hover the same way that many stock market sites handle ticker symbols.
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

The OP says to avoid abbreviations without introducing them, but does that apply to IRS, IRA, ETF, TLH, or even RBD? Since this is an investing web site, the audience is other investors and investors should know what IRS means without it having to be spelled out in every post. [RBD is not well known internationally, but it should be around this website.] Similarly, when quoting our laws and regulations, USC and CFR are well understood. nisiprius gives the example of Vanguard Total Stock Market Index with its many flavors, but TSM is recognized by most as the generic version.

My feeling is that if you know that your audience knows the terms you are using, use the terms and not the full names, even at a first reference.

P.S. Hey, who knows what or who an OP is? Well lash me with a wet noodle, I used an abbreviation in this post without spelling it out the first time. I still have trouble distinguishing an Original Post OP from an Original Poster OP. I suppose if I use OP in both senses in the same post I would have to spell out every single instance as some readers would be too confused otherwise. Actually, my original OP is totally ambiguous. Was my OP a reference to the OP or to the OP?
User avatar
Clearly_Irrational
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Clearly_Irrational »

Raven2 wrote:I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

I disagree. For a special topic forum of this nature I don't see acronyms, symbols or abbreviations as a problem. If someone doesn't know what they mean, the wiki and the internet are right there. The only issue would be if it wasn't possible to figure out what you were talking about from the context so that you wouldn't know what to look up. In that case, then yes, extra verbiage would be appropriate.

Now, if I were writing about this material to a more generic audience then of course I should explain what I mean before using shortcuts of that nature.
Raven2 wrote:Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.
The exception are the threads where people are posting their portfolio for analysis, then it's just rude not to provide the extra info. You're already getting free analysis, you want everyone to look up your stuff as well? I think not.
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

ogd wrote:...
The best of both worlds would be forum software or a browser extension that underlined and looked up the funds automatically, pulling them up on hover the same way that many stock market sites handle ticker symbols.
ogd creates an opening for somebody to say, and I'll bite:

The Greasemonkey browser add-on has an option called tickerdescribe, which does precisely that when you hover your mouse.

It only works in the body of the text, so it won't help for questions like:

Re: ICU VS RTFM VS ROTFL
Which is the best for ALL of us?

Nonetheless, I think Taylor's request is best: use both the ticker and the fund name.

It may take you ten seconds more to write, but if 500 people take two seconds each less to read you've contributed over a quarter of an hour of productivity to the global economy.

Now that's leverage.

PJW
dickenjb
Posts: 2941
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:11 pm
Location: Philadelphia PA

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by dickenjb »

Pretty funny that the original poster rails against the use of abbreviations, then proceeds to use one, and uses the wrong one to boot!
User avatar
ogd
Posts: 4876
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:43 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by ogd »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
ogd wrote:...
The best of both worlds would be forum software or a browser extension that underlined and looked up the funds automatically, pulling them up on hover the same way that many stock market sites handle ticker symbols.
ogd creates an opening for somebody to say, and I'll bite:

The Greasemonkey browser add-on has an option called tickerdescribe, which does precisely that when you hover your mouse.
By all means, do bite when it's something this informative!!

Greasemonkey normally gives me the heebie-jibbies and I don't use it, nor do I recommend that people install random code from the net into their browser. But this one is simple and straightforward and after inspecting the code it looks harmless -- at least the current version dating from Nov 11, 2012.

Installation instructions for Chrome:
1) go to http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/87684
2) Click Install. Chrome refuses to install it directly from a website, but it will download it for you to install manually.
2.5) Inspect the code if you're so inclined, it's very simple.
3) Drag it from the downloads folder to Chrome's Extensions page.

What it does: for bogleheads and a long list of about 10000 capitalized ticker abbreviations, provides a link with the fund name in the tooltip and a link to morningstar. It's not a substitute for fund names properly written in the first place, but it's an aid when they're not.

Thanks PJW!
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

Here's what I do when I see a ticker symbol

1) know it already
2) look it up
3) stop reading the thread and move on

My most likely response is 3. No one is forcing you to read any of these threads. You can always read TMZ instead.
https://www.tmz.com

P.S. If someone uses symbols for their intended audience and you don't know the symbols, then very basic logic leads me to conclude that you are not the intended audience. Did I miss something?
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

sscritic wrote:...
P.S. If someone uses symbols for their intended audience and you don't know the symbols, then very basic logic leads me to conclude that you are not the intended audience. Did I miss something?
Yes. You missed two things.

Very often we have people who are new to the subject asking questions. Answering as if they're not one's intended audience is the equivalent of attempting to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

I believe we also have a vast audience of unregistered nonposters, which the forum is nonetheless organized to help.

You, of course, remain free to write in any style you like.

PJW
User avatar
Munir
Posts: 3200
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:39 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Munir »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
technovelist wrote:I can't imagine that this applies in fields that have a lot of "well-known" jargon, such as medicine, physics, and investing.
From Taylor:
Hi Bogleheads:

I notice that more and more topics contain only ticker symbols without fund or ETF names.

It should be obvious that most of us have not memorized ticker symbols. This means that if we would like to answer your questions we must take the time to look-up the name (because the poster was too lazy). The result is that many Bogleheads will not bother to reply.

If you want a maximum number of replies, please include both the ticker symbol and the fund name.

Thank you.
Thank you, Taylor.

PJW
+1 i.e. right on!
peppers
Posts: 1650
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:05 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by peppers »

USC - University of Southern California or University of South Carolina

CFR - Council of Foreign Relations or Code of Federal Regulations

Hmmm.....the plot thickens........
"..the cavalry ain't comin' kid, you're on your own..."
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
sscritic wrote:...
P.S. If someone uses symbols for their intended audience and you don't know the symbols, then very basic logic leads me to conclude that you are not the intended audience. Did I miss something?
Yes. You missed two things.

Very often we have people who are new to the subject asking questions. Answering as if they're not one's intended audience is the equivalent of attempting to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
And you missed one thing. If I am writing an answer to a poster who asks a really basic question, I know my audience is someone still working on the basics, and I try to write appropriately. However, if someone asks a very technical question, I will tend to answer in a very technical way. That doesn't prevent anyone else from reading along (in fact, I encourage reading along), but I do not consider the person reading along my audience.

I think you know me well enough to know I would not deliberately obscure my answers to someone asking a simple question: for someone who is annoying, like asking the same question for the third time after already getting the answer and making no serious attempt at reading it, absolutely.
User avatar
G-Money
Posts: 2867
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:12 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by G-Money »

LOL. Welcome to the internet.
Don't assume I know what I'm talking about.
pinecrest
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:51 pm

.....

Post by pinecrest »

.....
Last edited by pinecrest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

pinecrest wrote:
sscritic wrote: If I am writing an answer to a poster who asks a really basic question, I know my audience is someone still working on the basics, and I try to write appropriately.
Wrt symbols (That's "with regard to" ;) ), I would write the same way whether the poster was an obvious beginner or a veteran. The first thing an investor learns is to use symbols. You simply can't research a fund or a stock just based on the name. I don't even know the names of the securities I own. When I see a symbol in a post that I want to look up, I use the SmartSearch extension for Firefox. I just select the symbol in the text and it goes to my preferred look-up site. Others may use other extensions (I think GreaseMonkey was mentioned above.) Others may simply type the symbol into their favorite search engine. Either way, learning to look up a symbol is basic and if a questioner doesn't want to do that, they probably aren't worth helping. (Tough love).
There are symbols and then there are ticker symbols. I am speaking of the former. If someone asks a social security question and shows an intermediate level of understanding, I will use FRA, PIA, and POMS without further ado. If POMS doesn't connect right away, it is only a google ssa poms away.
https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

I will however always (?) explain BIC (D) if it shows up in a quote from POMS, e.g.,
Widow(er) benefits are benefits paid to those with a BIC of D or W (any subscript).
D = aged widow; D1 = aged widower, etc. Oh, and BIC is Beneficiary Identification Code.
User avatar
SnapShots
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 12:39 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by SnapShots »

Raven2 wrote:I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.

So come on guys/gals, please spell out what you mean in the name of effective communications. Thank you.
Ditto..... and will include the use of many other other acronyms. IMHO :wink:
the best decision many times is the hardest to do
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Cosmo »

Raven2 wrote:I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.

So come on guys/gals, please spell out what you mean in the name of effective communications. Thank you.
I am guessing that you have never worked at at large corporation before. Acronyms are a way of life in the corporate world and there is no getting around it. Having said that, you probably aren't going to gain much support for doing this on this forum. That's just the way it is so get to know your FLAs.
Cosmo
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Cosmo wrote:...
That's just the way it is so get to know your FLAs.
Cosmo
You speak the truth. OTOH, I've always felt TLA is a better term for FLA than FLA itself. Using TLA to mean FLA is, of course, inaccurate and confusing, but that's the point. xLAs are invariably inaccurate and confusing, so using the TLA TLA to describe FLAs, OLAs, TLAs, FLAs, SLAs, etc, etc, is the best way for form and function to amplify one another.

TTFN

PJW
User avatar
Kevin M
Posts: 15787
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Kevin M »

Although I prefer that posts include the fund name and ticker, there's nothing we can do to force it. If only ticker is provided, and I don't know it or can't figure out what it is from the context, and I'm interested enough, I look it up; I usually open a new tab and type the ticker in the URL (oops, abbreviation) box (AKA omnibox) (oops, another one)--usually works and takes about 5 seconds.

If I see an abbreviation I don't understand, and I care enough, I Google it. There are commonly used forum abbreviations (OP has been mentioned). Some that I recall I had to look up initially are DW, DH, IANAL, AFAIK. Then there are investing-specific and BH (Bogleheads)-specific ones, some of which have already been mentioned; e.g., TLH, TSM, RBD.

One that I use a lot is EWP (early withdrawal penalty), but I usually spell it out the first time in a post or at least in a thread.

If I ever use an abbreviation that you don't understand, and you care enough, feel free to PM me or just ask in a reply (I've seen that done here).

Kevin
If I make a calculation error, #Cruncher probably will let me know.
pinecrest
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:51 pm

.....

Post by pinecrest »

.....
Last edited by pinecrest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Phineas J. Whoopee
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Kevin M wrote:...
If I ever use an abbreviation that you don't understand, and you care enough, feel free to PM me or just ask in a reply (I've seen that done here).

Kevin
If, to understand an abbreviation of yours, we need to make you Prime Minister, I'm afraid we'd (using the Royal we, here) have to be monarch.

If we were monarch, everybody else would have to work out our acronyms.

PTIYPASI

PJW
DSInvestor
Posts: 11647
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by DSInvestor »

Bogleheads.org - Investing Advice Inspired by Jack Bogle. :)

I was familiar with President John F. Kennedy before I moved to the United States as a teenager. When my American friends started talking about Jack Kennedy, I had no idea who that was. I didn't know that Jack was a nickname for John.
Wiki
pinecrest
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:51 pm

.....

Post by pinecrest »

.....
Last edited by pinecrest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marbleous
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:37 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by marbleous »

nisiprius wrote:
Do they still do the old bit of, I don't even know the same for this kind of riddle/rebus/joke:

FUNEM?
VFM.
FUNEX?
VFX.
OKMNX.

I sometimes use "OKMNX" as a hypothetical mutual fund ticker symbol, but nobody ever seems to get it.
It took me a minute to figure it out. Props help in translation.

http://www.flixxy.com/two-ronnies-comedy.htm
Texas hold em71
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Texas hold em71 »

Everyone knows USC is University of Spoiled Children, but WTH does IANAL mean?
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

Texas hold em71 wrote:Everyone knows USC is University of Spoiled Children, but WTH does IANAL mean?
It means you are not Harvey Levin, who ends every TMZ broadcast with "I'm a lawyer!"
Texas hold em71
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Texas hold em71 »

sscritic wrote:
Texas hold em71 wrote:Everyone knows USC is University of Spoiled Children, but WTH does IANAL mean?
It means you are not Harvey Levin, who ends every TMZ broadcast with "I'm a lawyer!"
No, I am a CPA. Couldn't Pass Again. :)
User avatar
Munir
Posts: 3200
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:39 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Munir »

The usual number of know-it-all responders, and the smart alecs, followed by the jokers. Then the get-with-it, lighten-up responses to the responses. What cannot be ignored is that it's plain good manners to have the full name of a fund mentioned once before starting to use the letters only. Taylor summed it up very well.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Valuethinker »

Munir wrote:The usual number of know-it-all responders, and the smart alecs, followed by the jokers. Then the get-with-it, lighten-up responses to the responses. What cannot be ignored is that it's plain good manners to have the full name of a fund mentioned once before starting to use the letters only. Taylor summed it up very well.
Hear! Hear!

Using short forms, for those of us who are not based in the UK, is a pain (I grant exemptions for AAPL, GOOG, MSFT - those one can intuit, but do I know the ticker for the stock Intuition ? ;-)). It simply cuts the addressable audience.

I must admit I think i.e. and e.g. as being part of the English language (but I agree they are often confused).
User avatar
frugaltype
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:07 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by frugaltype »

Raven2 wrote:I was always taught and this has been confirmed by published books and articles that one should state the name for the acronym, symbol or abbreviation, prior to using it in any form of communication.

Yet here on the Bogleheads forum, many questions or comments simply state the ticker symbol and never state the name of the funds representing those symbols. IE: vinex, vtsmx, vgstx vtthx, etc. without any references. This does a disservice to both the author and the reader as many readers do not know the names and must waste tine looking it up, or simply ignore the author and move on. And that hat leaves the author with fewer responses to his/her questions or comments.

So come on guys/gals, please spell out what you mean in the name of effective communications. Thank you.
+1 not only ticker symbols, but other abbreviations as well.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 52211
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by nisiprius »

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Cosmo wrote:...
That's just the way it is so get to know your FLAs.
Cosmo
You speak the truth. OTOH, I've always felt TLA is a better term for FLA than FLA itself. Using TLA to mean FLA is, of course, inaccurate and confusing, but that's the point. xLAs are invariably inaccurate and confusing, so using the TLA TLA to describe FLAs, OLAs, TLAs, FLAs, SLAs, etc, etc, is the best way for form and function to amplify one another. TTFN, PJW
Most "TLA's" are actually TLI's, e.g. TLA itself. Per AHD3 an acronym is "a word formed from the initial letters of a name." N.b. a word, i.e. pronounced & used as a word, vs. an initialism, which isn't. Most WWII acronyms, viz. RADAR, SNAFU, FLAK &c. were not TLAs, having >3 letters, but cf. WAC. The FDR's "alphabet agencies," e.g. CCC, FTP, WPA &c. were spelled out when spoken and thus not TLA's.

Cf. Sherman, Allan (1963), "Harvey and Sheila." None of the TLI's are delivered as words. No need to explain obvious and well-known abbreviations like PBX, BBD&O, HFC, A&P.

Anyone remember the old ads:

Image
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18499
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I've written technical papers, applications notes and seminars for many years. It is best practice to, on first appearance, spell out the phrase followed by the acronym in parentheses. I worked in a big tech company (2 letter acronym in itself....think calculators, y'all) who were the absolute worst in using acronyms and thinking that the world understood. There's actually a three letter acronym page (TLA) on their internal website that is 10's of pages. An introduction in front of a customer might have gone like this:

"Hello. I'm Patrick and I'm the FAE manager for the NER. With me today is Brian, who is the NEAD, Joe, who is the ICP SBE minus 1 PME and of course, you know John, who is the RSM. Al, the DSP PM was unable to make it because he is MIA"

I would sit there, not being able to get by the ICP acronym, thinking that it's the avant guarde band "Insane Clown Posse"

As a beginner, I have struggled with some of the acronyms here. Putting tickers "BND, VTI, etc" aren't a problem because I can just look them up. But even something as simple as ROI......is it really that difficult to first say "return on investment (ROI)" so that the reader doesn't have to guess?
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Faith20879
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:16 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Faith20879 »

What is Required Minimum Distributions and what are the rules of Required Minimum Distributions?

I have a few questions about Required Minimum distributions. IRS says that we have to start the Required Minimum Distributions at age 70 and some. When I reach the age for Required Minimum Distribution, I will have to start the Required Minimum Distribution or face a penalty for failing to start my Required Minimum Distribution. If I....

Okay I am tired of typing already. Lemme read the IRS article again and see if I can figure it out myself.
Last edited by Faith20879 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

I started to copy all the abbreviations used on bogleheads.org (just that one web page), but I got a headache. Take a look for yourself. I count at least forty.
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

Example:
MLP UBTI - Same Units but different UBTI in IRA/Broker Accts
I doubt the author is looking for answers from people who have no clue as to what MLP and UBTI are. By using the abbreviations, he reached out to the target audience. Perhaps people who don't know what MLP and UBTI are might have all the right answers, but doesn't the OP with the question have to right to write the OP as the OP sees fit?
User avatar
Cosmo
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Cosmo »

Faith20879 wrote:What is Required Minimum Distributions and what are the rules of Required Minimum Distributions?

I have a few questions about Required Minimum distributions. IRS says that we have to start the Required Minimum Distributions at age 70 and some. When I reach the age for Required Minimum Distribution, I will have to start the Required Minimum Distribution or face a penalty for failing to start my Required Minimum Distribution. If I....

Okay I am tired of typing already. Lemme read the IRS article again and see if I can figure it out myself.
IRS? Please clarify. Thanks. :-)
Professor Emeritus
Posts: 2628
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:43 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by Professor Emeritus »

sscritic wrote:I started to copy all the abbreviations used on bogleheads.org (just that one web page), but I got a headache. Take a look for yourself. I count at least forty.

Some Kritiker of the Schutzstaffel were shot , so be careful :happy :happy :happy :happy
User avatar
yukonjack
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:36 pm
Location: Rocky Mountain West

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by yukonjack »

Speaking of abbreviations, what does DW stand for? I didn't see it in a google search. I'm assuming a spouse or partner.
ajcp
Posts: 719
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by ajcp »

yukonjack wrote:Speaking of abbreviations, what does DW stand for? I didn't see it in a google search. I'm assuming a spouse or partner.
That one took me a long time too. Knew exactly what it meant, but couldn't figure out what it stood for.

Dear wife(or husband)
sscritic
Posts: 21853
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:36 am

Re: Avoid Abbreviations

Post by sscritic »

ajcp wrote:
yukonjack wrote:Speaking of abbreviations, what does DW stand for? I didn't see it in a google search. I'm assuming a spouse or partner.
That one took me a long time too. Knew exactly what it meant, but couldn't figure out what it stood for.

Dear wife(or husband)
If DW is your husband, what is your husband's DH? I know, designated hitter!
Post Reply