Best way to sign a credit card?

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linenfort
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

roymeo wrote:I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant. Seems about as productive as worrying about protecting the copper pipes sitting at that worksite of a house being built 1/2 the city away...and I've got just as much skin in the game: none.
In that case, why not post your credit card # and info here in this thread. It would be easier for thieves to use and after all, you've got no skin in the game.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Epsilon Delta »

linenfort wrote:
roymeo wrote:I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant. Seems about as productive as worrying about protecting the copper pipes sitting at that worksite of a house being built 1/2 the city away...and I've got just as much skin in the game: none.
In that case, why not post your credit card # and info here in this thread. It would be easier for thieves to use and after all, you've got no skin in the game.
This is a false dichotomy.

Among other things publishing the credit card number takes work, and he said "I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant." not "I want to spend my time helping the thieves."
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linenfort
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

Epsilon Delta wrote:
linenfort wrote:
roymeo wrote:I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant. Seems about as productive as worrying about protecting the copper pipes sitting at that worksite of a house being built 1/2 the city away...and I've got just as much skin in the game: none.
In that case, why not post your credit card # and info here in this thread. It would be easier for thieves to use and after all, you've got no skin in the game.
This is a false dichotomy.

Among other things publishing the credit card number takes work, and he said "I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant." not "I want to spend my time helping the thieves."
No. It would take less time than it took to make the initial post, and the reward would be proof to back up the original post, once and for all.
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Quidnam
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Quidnam »

roymeo wrote:I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant. Seems about as productive as worrying about protecting the copper pipes sitting at that worksite of a house being built 1/2 the city away...and I've got just as much skin in the game: none.
Even if you're not at risk of any financial liability, you still have "skin in the game" (at least a bit more than you do with the copper pipes).

Having your credit card information stolen involves some degree of inconvenience to you. You've got to scrutinize your charges and identify the problem. Even if the card company identifies a pattern of fraudulent behavior on your behalf (and they may not), it's likely to require some amount of communication before it can be fully sorted out. It may also result in your card being blocked / declined at an inopportune time, and/or a period of time before a new card can be issued.

And if you end up with a new credit card number, that can result in a whole new round of inconvenience having to update any recurring billing agreements, saved credit card details for online shopping, etc.

I'd say that qualifies as at least a thin layer of epidermis -- enough to warrant reasonable measures to avoid credit card fraud despite zero consumer liability (though there's not very much we can do in that regard, unfortunately).
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by JW »

richard wrote:
nisiprius wrote:As the cost of credit card fraud grows, I predict that sooner or later credit card companies will start pressing for the elimination of the liability limit. They will know perfectly well that there will be a consumer response to this, but they will judge or misjudge that they can get away with it, eventually Congress will go along. Then everyone will be scared to use their credit cards, the credit card system as we know it will gradually collapse, and the consumer economy will recrystallize into some new pattern.
Your last sentence suggests a reason this is unlikely. The law is $50, but every credit card company I know of has a policy of $0 liability for fraud. The current focus by card issuers is to push liability to the stores, not to consumers.

Eventually the US will move to Chip & Pin credit cards, which virtually eliminates the possibility of in person (card present, as they say in the trade) credit card fraud. It's virtually impossible to clone a chip card (compare mag stripe cards) and a lot harder to forge a PIN number than a signature (multiple failed attempts tend to be noticeable). Online fraud would still be possible, but physical goods have to be delivered to an identifiable location, which limits that type of fraud.
As I recall, liability for fraudulent transactions conducted using current magnetic strip technology will shift in the USA from credit card issuers to merchants starting in 2015. Liability for transactions using EMV (chip & signature, chip & pin, etc.) cards will still rest with the credit card companies. The assumption is that most merchants will upgrade their terminals in order to avoid losing money on fraudulent transactions. The same strategy was used in much of the rest of the world starting in the mid-2000s and seems to have resulted in widespread adoption of the EMV cards.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by tbradnc »

I haven't signed the back of a credit card in ... forever?

Some merchants ask to see my DL license when I pay with a credit card but I assume that's just to make sure the name on my license and the name on the card are the same - and the picture on my DL is a much more reliable indicator that I'm really me than my signature ever will be.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by roymeo »

linenfort wrote:
roymeo wrote:I don't understand wasting my time to protect the bank/merchant. Seems about as productive as worrying about protecting the copper pipes sitting at that worksite of a house being built 1/2 the city away...and I've got just as much skin in the game: none.
In that case, why not post your credit card # and info here in this thread. It would be easier for thieves to use and after all, you've got no skin in the game.
I would have skin in the game (IE: liability) if I went out of my way to provide my information, which is almost, but not quite, completely unlike worrying about whether signing or not signing might help a thief who gained access to my physical card.
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linenfort
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

Quidnam wrote:Even if you're not at risk of any financial liability, you still have "skin in the game" (at least a bit more than you do with the copper pipes).

Having your credit card information stolen involves some degree of inconvenience to you. You've got to scrutinize your charges and identify the problem. Even if the card company identifies a pattern of fraudulent behavior on your behalf (and they may not), it's likely to require some amount of communication before it can be fully sorted out. It may also result in your card being blocked / declined at an inopportune time, and/or a period of time before a new card can be issued.

And if you end up with a new credit card number, that can result in a whole new round of inconvenience having to update any recurring billing agreements, saved credit card details for online shopping, etc.

I'd say that qualifies as at least a thin layer of epidermis -- enough to warrant reasonable measures to avoid credit card fraud despite zero consumer liability (though there's not very much we can do in that regard, unfortunately).
Very well said.

Yes, not signing a card is not the same as posting one's #. Not at all. But, in both cases, the bank would probably never know what you did (or failed to do). In any case, I think we have sufficiently answered the question, "Who cares whether you're making it harder or easier for a thief to use?"
Answer: Absolutely everyone. That is, anyone who does not want to "create a liablility."

The article linked earlier was pretty good! ( Gene’s signature achievement, or is it Gorgeous George’s? ) It is of course about signing the bill or receipt, not the card. Signing the card is very little work- maybe once in three years. Signing bills? That's something I have to do every day, every time I eat out or buy groceries. The clerk may not check it carefully, but you have to do it. Anytime I buy something in person...except at certain merchants which let you go sig-free when the charge is under $20. Hmm.

That reminds me of living in places like Taiwan in which you often "sign" at a bank with your personal chop (a stamp, a seal), and not your handwritten John Hancock. Anyone could copy your chop. I suppose there is something about the act of signing that humans regard the way we regard a verbal agreement.

Here's an idea: maybe it's the signing at point of sale (POS) that counts, and maybe it counts because it's long enough for the clerk (and a camera) to get a good look at you. :happy
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Epsilon Delta »

Signing is a little ceremony that formalizes a contract. This is a protection against misunderstanding among honest people, and is at least as important as any protection they afford against dishonest people.

If you want to see what life would be like without something akin to a signature think of how auctions are often presented in comedy, where everybody is afraid to scratch their nose, stretch or ask for the salt, lest they commit themselves to purchasing something they don't want.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

Epsilon Delta wrote:Signing is a little ceremony that formalizes a contract. This is a protection against misunderstanding among honest people
I couldn't agree more. And I guess the clicking of a Submit button is the digital version that serves the same purpose.
If you want to see what life would be like without something akin to a signature think of how auctions are often presented in comedy, where everybody is afraid to scratch their nose,
Or we could look at real history.Nisiprius, this would be a great opportunity for you to tell us about the etymology of testify and testament. ;-)
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by evelyn »

The post office here (Davis, CA) won't accept a credit card unless it's signed.

This is a recent Daily Finance article that falls in the "Yes, sign the card" camp:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/01/06/ ... ch-target/

<<Make sure you sign the back of your credit card -- if you don't, your fraud liability might be higher.<<
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

That's a great article, evelyn!

I still think we live in a Bizarro world in that we have less of a hassle chasing down fraudulent transactions if we pay late (credit) as opposed to paying immediately (debit). I mean, the transactions are equally safe (or unsafe) but it's more of a pain if you use debit and pay immediately. I understand the reasoning behind it but it's still odd.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by linenfort »

evelyn wrote:The post office here (Davis, CA) won't accept a credit card unless it's signed.
I just ran into the same thing in the northeast U.S. today. Probably a nationwide policy.
So, there's one good reason to sign the card.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Paul78 »

I don't sign it.

Heck even when I buy something with my credit card and they make you sign (either the machine or the physical receipt) I don't sign. I just draw a "squiggly" line which in no way resembles my name or any other name. Never once has my credit card company called me about this (ie no one is actually looking to see if you really sign the machine). And my credit card has called me a few times to acquire about potential fraud. Once when I make purchases in multiple states in the same day (I was traveling), once when I tried to buy something online from a foreign country, and once when I typed the wrong zip code (gas machines make you type it in).

A better way is to have your picture on the credit card (like the Costco American Express card). But then again this only works if the employee actually looks at it (most of them don't). Plus there could be negatives of having your picture on the credit card (are there?) and this does nothing for online purchases.

Wouldn't a fingerprint be a better method. Sure fingerprint readers would have to be much more common (is the basic cheap laptop/desktop would have to have it as a standard feature). But that way you could just use the credit card site to authorizes certain users (ie upload their fingerprints using you computer). Not sure how practical ($$$ wise) this is to implement and there would still be ways for fraud. It does seems more secure than the current system.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by munemaker »

CyberBob wrote:From the Visa card acceptance guide for merchants:

Dealing with unsigned cards

If the signature panel is left blank...
  • Request a signature. Ask the cardholder to sign the card and provide current government identification, such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits).
  • Check the signature. Be sure that the cardholder signature on the transaction receipt matches the one on the card and the additional identification.
  • Complete the transaction. If the signatures appear reasonably the same and the authorization request is approved, continue the transaction. If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, do not accept the card.
If the card has a “See ID” in place of a signature…
  • Request a signature. Ask the cardholder to sign the card and provide current government identification, such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits).
  • Check the signature. Be sure that the signature on the card matches the one on the transaction receipt and the additional identification.
  • If the signatures appear reasonably the same and the authorization request is approved, go ahead and complete the transaction.
Bob
I have a lot of credit cards and I don't sign any of them. Very occasionally, some new clerk will ask for my ID. The only real hassle I ever had was some over zealous clerk at the post office, of all places. He tried the procedure above. I showed him my driver's license and he said since they are federal, they do not recognize state IDs. I said sorry, I don't have my passport with me. He tried very hard to make me sign the card. Finally I said I would just pay him in cash and this is just another example of why the post office is in so much trouble. I have been in the same post office since then, bought stamps at the counter with an unsigned credit card and the clerk never batted an eye.

Look at it this way: You buy things over the phone and online, and no one sees whether your card is signed or not. If the card was stolen, the thief could easily sign his name over yours. So signing the card is totally unnecessary and serves no real purpose. It is one of those things where people follow a procedure for no real purpose...kind of like not turning your cell phone on in an airplane.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by placeholder »

linenfort wrote:
evelyn wrote:The post office here (Davis, CA) won't accept a credit card unless it's signed.
I just ran into the same thing in the northeast U.S. today. Probably a nationwide policy.
So, there's one good reason to sign the card.
That's been the policy since they started taking credit cards and being the Post Office they don't much care whether you like it or not (NEXT!).
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by derosa »

I've never signed the back of my card. Signing doesn't mean anything. Think about all the phone and online transactions you use with a card and there is no signature involved at all.

No signature = nothing to copy.

I would guess once a year a business asks me for id when they turn the card over and it is blank.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by tj »

I never sign them. The only time I was questioned was a small town in New Zealand, and then when my drivers license signature did not match the scribble I put on the receipt, they were bothered.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Mudpuppy »

Paul78 wrote:Wouldn't a fingerprint be a better method. Sure fingerprint readers would have to be much more common (is the basic cheap laptop/desktop would have to have it as a standard feature). But that way you could just use the credit card site to authorizes certain users (ie upload their fingerprints using you computer). Not sure how practical ($$$ wise) this is to implement and there would still be ways for fraud. It does seems more secure than the current system.
Most cheap fingerprint scanners are trivially easy to fool with fake prints. Even ones that claim to incorporate anti-fraud procedures can be tricked into taking a fake print. Just use your favorite search engine to read about how quickly the scanners on the latest iPhone and Samsung Galaxy have been compromised.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by Quickfoot »

I think it's pretty obvious that the credit card company doesn't care that much. There's a lot of things they could do if they thought it was that big of a deal, but it seems to be more expensive than just accepting a certain amount of loss.
That's because it isn't Visa / Mastercard that take the loss when a fradulent transaction occurs, it's typically the merchant. When someone disputes a charge a charge back occurs where the merchant is billed the amount of the transaction. Visa / Mastercard get their 1-2% transaction fee PLUS charge a charge back / dispute fee to the merchant and recover the cost of the transaction (typically comes right out of the merchant account).

If a merchant causes too many charge backs / disputes their merchant account gets cancelled and they can't accept credit cards anymore. The charge back / protest process is part of the contract for the merchant to accept the cards, today all merchants that want to survive have to accept cards so they don't get wiggle room.

I've run a variety of ecommerce websites and actually wound up turning off automatic charging of credit cards because there were so many fradulent attempts. Did a second level of fraud detection prior to passing the card through the network because I got tired of charge back fees.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by ieee488 »

linenfort wrote:What is the best way to put your signature on the back of a credit card so that it won't smudge? Do you use a specific type of pen? A Sharpie perhaps? Do you affix Scotch tape over it?

So far, I have never found a good solution.
I use an extra fine Sharpie. Works beautifully.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

Post by cfs »

My input

I use a regular black ink ball point, press hard, no signature, I write the statement - Ask for ID -

I have my ID handy when paying with the credit card, and I thank the person asking me to show the ID.

Do Great things! And thanks for reading this note.
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Re: Best way to sign a credit card?

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