Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, children?

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huntertheory
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Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, children?

Post by huntertheory »

I appreciate all the advice I've received on Bogleheads over the years. My wife and I currently live in Manhattan, which is also where I work, and we have a young baby who is just a bit shy of three months. My wife and I are both 31 years old. My work will keep me in Manhattan for the foreseeable future (I'm a corporate/transactional attorney for a law firm here in the city), but as our family grows and we begin thinking about school for our children, we don't think Manhattan is the long run answer. Our plan is for my wife to stay home with the children, again, at least for the foreseeable future.

We are planning on moving out of the city in the next two years, and the thought is to move to somewhere in New Jersey, as my wife's family currently lives there (I am from a southern state, so some kind of greenery for the kids is appealing to me as well). We currently rent, and our thought would be to rent for a year in the new location to "try it out," but to otherwise purchase a home in the next 2-3 years.

I'm wondering if the Bogleheads have any recommendations on towns in New Jersey that:
  • 1) have a manageable commute to Manhattan (preferably by train)

    2) have good/affordable school options nearby

    3) generally have a nice balance of community/amenities/safety/etc with cost of living/property values/property taxes.
I know that's fairly open ended but any leads or advice would be appreciated. I'm happy to provide more detail/background on us as needed.
EagertoLearnMore
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by EagertoLearnMore »

When we lived in NJ, we found that the Somerset County area was a good mix of convenience and country-style living. The train line runs from Peapack-Gladstone as part of the Morristown line. Bernardsville, Basking Ridge, Lyons are various stops as you go east toward NYC. The public school systems are excellent and there are various private options as well. Property taxes are high in NJ, mainly driven by the school taxes. Do you have any specific questions? Princeton Junction also has train transportation to NYC. Princeton is in Mercer County and the taxes are high there as well. Princeton has the university for cultural events as well as private school options.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

huntertheory wrote:I appreciate all the advice I've received on Bogleheads over the years. My wife and I currently live in Manhattan, which is also where I work, and we have a young baby who is just a bit shy of three months. My wife and I are both 31 years old. My work will keep me in Manhattan for the foreseeable future (I'm a corporate/transactional attorney for a law firm here in the city), but as our family grows and we begin thinking about school for our children, we don't think Manhattan is the long run answer. Our plan is for my wife to stay home with the children, again, at least for the foreseeable future.

We are planning on moving out of the city in the next two years, and the thought is to move to somewhere in New Jersey, as my wife's family currently lives there (I am from a southern state, so some kind of greenery for the kids is appealing to me as well). We currently rent, and our thought would be to rent for a year in the new location to "try it out," but to otherwise purchase a home in the next 2-3 years.

I'm wondering if the Bogleheads have any recommendations on towns in New Jersey that:
  • 1) have a manageable commute to Manhattan (preferably by train)

    2) have good/affordable school options nearby

    3) generally have a nice balance of community/amenities/safety/etc with cost of living/property values/property taxes.
I know that's fairly open ended but any leads or advice would be appreciated. I'm happy to provide more detail/background on us as needed.
You need to be a little bit more specific - what is your target or ballpark home price? Do you want a walkable town or one where a car is necessary? Quantify - good and affordable? A mangeable commute? - 20 minutes, 60 minutes? 1.5 hours? You will likely be spending somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes door to door, unless you move to Jersey City/Hoboken but you will give up the land/leafy greenery you desire.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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Kevin21
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Kevin21 »

I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

EagertoLearnMore wrote:When we lived in NJ, we found that the Somerset County area was a good mix of convenience and country-style living. The train line runs from Peapack-Gladstone as part of the Morristown line. Bernardsville, Basking Ridge, Lyons are various stops as you go east toward NYC. The public school systems are excellent and there are various private options as well. Property taxes are high in NJ, mainly driven by the school taxes. Do you have any specific questions? Princeton Junction also has train transportation to NYC. Princeton is in Mercer County and the taxes are high there as well. Princeton has the university for cultural events as well as private school options.
OP will have a long commute if moving out that far. OP will need a car just to buy a gallon of milk. Where aren't property taxes high? Long Island, CT, NJ - they are through the roof.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Kevin21 wrote:I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
Two of the highest property tax towns in NJ, not too mention high home prices especially in Millburn.
Take a look at New Providence and Berkeley Heights, Westfield in Union County. In Bergen Cty, Ridgewood and Glen Rock.
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Kevin21
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Kevin21 »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Kevin21 wrote:I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
Two of the highest property tax towns in NJ, not too mention high home prices especially in Millburn.
Take a look at New Providence and Berkeley Heights, Westfield in Union County. In Bergen Cty, Ridgewood and Glen Rock.
But they have trains that go directly downtown, and are very nice. I would say they are worth keeping on the short list for now.
Valuethinker
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Valuethinker »

huntertheory wrote:I appreciate all the advice I've received on Bogleheads over the years. My wife and I currently live in Manhattan, which is also where I work, and we have a young baby who is just a bit shy of three months. My wife and I are both 31 years old. My work will keep me in Manhattan for the foreseeable future (I'm a corporate/transactional attorney for a law firm here in the city), but as our family grows and we begin thinking about school for our children, we don't think Manhattan is the long run answer. Our plan is for my wife to stay home with the children, again, at least for the foreseeable future.

We are planning on moving out of the city in the next two years, and the thought is to move to somewhere in New Jersey, as my wife's family currently lives there (I am from a southern state, so some kind of greenery for the kids is appealing to me as well). We currently rent, and our thought would be to rent for a year in the new location to "try it out," but to otherwise purchase a home in the next 2-3 years.

I'm wondering if the Bogleheads have any recommendations on towns in New Jersey that:
  • 1) have a manageable commute to Manhattan (preferably by train)

    2) have good/affordable school options nearby

    3) generally have a nice balance of community/amenities/safety/etc with cost of living/property values/property taxes.
I know that's fairly open ended but any leads or advice would be appreciated. I'm happy to provide more detail/background on us as needed.
A couple of observations (having friends in NYC but never having lived there):

- consider Connecticut - generally one hears nicer things about Connecticut than NJ (I don't know if taxes are any lower, but the communities are perhaps more amenable

- your life will depend on how good your train is, so do a lot of checking on that (also planned improvements, which can be incredibly disruptive but should lead to better service)

- unfortunately everyone wants what you want, (commutable, good community, good schools), so you will wind up paying too much for too little. Know what it is you will tradeoff (commute time or some other amenity; maybe a house that becomes a longterm renovation project, etc.)

From the strength of the US housing market, waiting could hurt you. I am all for 'try before buy' but in your shoes (and dependent upon your salary progression) I'd think about doing this in 12-18 months.

The issue is the one economist Edward Gleaser (just written a book about cities) has emphasized. In the really popular cities in the USA (Boston, SF, NY, LA, Wash DC, perhaps Seattle?) various local factors act to restrict housing supply-- communities resist intense urban development. (Paul Krugman has called this, I think, 'Flatland' and 'Zoneland'. Flatland is like Dallas, housing supply expands to meet demand. Zoneland is these coastal cities). Suburban communities have development restrictions and minimum lot size. Therefore housing supply lags demand (each of these cities has a vibrant service based economy) and so prices are extortionate. And there is little or no sign of this abating. Whereas overall US housing prices are not likely to be bullish (post this post crash 'bounce') in those key cities, that offer the jobs and that people move to, things don't look like they are getting better, to my knowledge.
BarryB
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by BarryB »

You might want to ask this question in this forum:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-jersey/

Make sure you answer the questions in the second sticky at the top when you post your question.
meaghansketch
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by meaghansketch »

I have never lived in New Jersey but when I worked in downtown NYC (South Street Seaport/ Financial district area) my coworkers with kids raved about Maplewood.
pochax
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by pochax »

will assume you have a relatively high income since you are manhattan corporate attorney. i live in Bergen County. If you are okay with home prices in the $600k-1M+ values, consider these towns: Ridgewood (train), Glen Rock (train), Ho-ho-kus, Allendale, Tenafly. i have prioritized public school system for that short list, but if you are considering private school, you should consider a lower property tax area since you won't be using that school system. not sure if the last 3 have train access, but i am aware of lots of manhattan commuters from those towns. As previously mentioned, outside of Bergen County, Millburn is excellent. the city data forum suggestion is excellent as well.
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huntertheory
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by huntertheory »

Thanks for all of the feedback so quickly. I understand the Goldilocks nature of the question -- "I want the best cost/commute/schools/property/etc/etc." Obviously life is tradeoffs.

To answer a couple of questions, via train I can deal with an hour commute, but that's about the high end for my own sanity. In terms of what we could afford, part of the reason we hoped to wait was to build up slightly more for the deposit. In about 25-28 months we should be able to afford a $200,000-$250,000 down deposit, and could afford approximately $4,000 of all-in monthly costs, give or take. If you plug that into the calculators they spit out something between a $600,000-$800,000 home, but any feedback on the feasibility/desirability of spending that much would be appreciated as well. If we *had* to buy a house tomorrow, we have a bit over $120,000 in non-retirement assets that we could use for that purpose.

I love that NYC is a walking city, but I'm fairly resigned to the idea that once we buy we're going to be in a more "residential" type area that requires driving. We actually have one car (my wife's), and we're likely to buy a second sometime over the next two years (depending when we move out of the city).

I hope that provides some additional color. And yes, the tax situation in New Jersey is frustrating. I'd be open to Connecticut or other parts of New York state but my wife is fairly resigned to moving closer to her family (Somerville and Waldwick) so that's what I'm working with. (To be clear, I like NJ, other than the tax situation.)
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Kevin21 wrote:I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
Two of the highest property tax towns in NJ, not too mention high home prices especially in Millburn.
Take a look at New Providence and Berkeley Heights, Westfield in Union County. In Bergen Cty, Ridgewood and Glen Rock.
Millburn (including Short Hills) and Maplewood are extremely convenient via train to Midtown and almost as convenient to downtown. Maplewood is a very diverse town, and many NYC residents feel at home there; most of the parents I know who live in Maplewood use a private school, especially for high school. Property taxes are lower in Maplewood than Millburn/Short Hills. The schools in Millburn/SH are highly rated; my personal view is that realtors perpetuate the party line that it's one of the best school systems in the state and country. My oldest went all the way through public schools, but the two youngest are attending a great private school. PM me if you want more details.

Westfield is a great town; not familiar with the Bergen County towns.

In general, the more convenient the commute and better the schools, the more expensive. Makes sense.

EDITED TO ADD: I just saw your followup post. Short Hills is definitely out, Millburn is a stretch, and you can probably find a home in Maplewood. Westfield is likely.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

PS I commuted into NYC for 20+ years, and you might be surprised what you can tolerate/not tolerate about the commute. I found that standing on the platform in the heat, cold, wet, etc., was much more bothersome than the duration of the commute. The trains are very comfortable and it can actually be a great time to read the paper, converse with friends, or decompress on the way home; I didn't find the time on the train to be a huge bother, but as I got older, the time on the platform became less and less acceptable. From what I've been told, the trains are more dependably on-time now.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
DoWahDaddy
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by DoWahDaddy »

Funny that family is in Somerville and Waldwick as those are two points to consider in the two overall regions you should look at (Bergen County and the Union/Somerset county areas). Most of the public schools over those entire areas are very good. Most of the housing also is painfully expensive. Some have mentioned Westfield and Ridgewood as two potential hits, but be advised you might not be pleased with what you get for the money, and that goes for nearly all the towns in the commuter zone that have good school systems, particularly if you are unfamiliar with the towns of NJ. But it is what it is.

You might need to give yourself some wiggle room on the 1 hr commute. There are many great towns in the 1:15-1:30 commute area. Bergen has the better general commute, but it is priced that way, so be advised. If I were to recommend the best bangs for the buck, I would suggest you look at Mountainside, Springfield, Cranford and Scotch Plains/Fanwood. Forget Millburn, and visit Maplewood just to say you looked into it. Westfield would be your main downtown if you lived in Cranford or SP/F, without having to shell out the additional couple hundred grand for the address.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Waldwick is the Main Line, maybe the Bergen line stops there too. Somerville, sounds like a long commute line (ugh, your commute will definitely be on the 90 minute or more route). OP should plan for on average real estate taxes of $900 per month (bare minimum), if not more, and generally speaking the higher cost homes will have much higher taxes or at least $1K per month. Even in some of the much less desirable school districts, taxes are as much and the schools leave a lot to be desired. In NJ/LI/CT - you will never "own" your home, the government owns it forever.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

pochax wrote:will assume you have a relatively high income since you are manhattan corporate attorney. i live in Bergen County. If you are okay with home prices in the $600k-1M+ values, consider these towns: Ridgewood (train), Glen Rock (train), Ho-ho-kus, Allendale, Tenafly. i have prioritized public school system for that short list, but if you are considering private school, you should consider a lower property tax area since you won't be using that school system. not sure if the last 3 have train access, but i am aware of lots of manhattan commuters from those towns. As previously mentioned, outside of Bergen County, Millburn is excellent. the city data forum suggestion is excellent as well.
Allendale and Ho-ho-kus are on the Bergen Line. Tenafly is bus or you drive to a train station. All of those towns btw, have high taxes and high property taxes - you'd think only rich folk lived there.
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DoWahDaddy
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by DoWahDaddy »

TomatoTomahto wrote:PS I commuted into NYC for 20+ years, and you might be surprised what you can tolerate/not tolerate about the commute. I found that standing on the platform in the heat, cold, wet, etc., was much more bothersome than the duration of the commute. The trains are very comfortable and it can actually be a great time to read the paper, converse with friends, or decompress on the way home; I didn't find the time on the train to be a huge bother, but as I got older, the time on the platform became less and less acceptable. From what I've been told, the trains are more dependably on-time now.
An interesting tidbit about the commute is that most people think the train is more reliable than the bus, when in practice the opposite is actually true, even in bad weather. Plus, on the bus, you have your own lighting, and cushy seats. :D

Disclosure: We continue to have an enormous investment in Thomas the Tank Engine.
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pochax
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by pochax »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
pochax wrote:will assume you have a relatively high income since you are manhattan corporate attorney. i live in Bergen County. If you are okay with home prices in the $600k-1M+ values, consider these towns: Ridgewood (train), Glen Rock (train), Ho-ho-kus, Allendale, Tenafly. i have prioritized public school system for that short list, but if you are considering private school, you should consider a lower property tax area since you won't be using that school system. not sure if the last 3 have train access, but i am aware of lots of manhattan commuters from those towns. As previously mentioned, outside of Bergen County, Millburn is excellent. the city data forum suggestion is excellent as well.
Allendale and Ho-ho-kus are on the Bergen Line. Tenafly is bus or you drive to a train station. All of those towns btw, have high taxes and high property taxes - you'd think only rich folk lived there.
You are probably right about Ho-Ho-Kus and Tenafly (when i was looking for homes in 2011-2012 the cheapest 4BR2.5Bth i could find were low $700k, and prices have risen since then), but i would argue Allendale is slightly more affordable on the home prices, but the taxes are still up there. btw, i am not sure what you mean by "high taxes and high property taxes", the only significant taxes i pay for the town are the property taxes. What other taxes are you talking about?
user5027
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by user5027 »

huntertheory wrote:And yes, the tax situation in New Jersey is frustrating. I'd be open to Connecticut or other parts of New York state but my wife is fairly resigned to moving closer to her family (Somerville and Waldwick) so that's what I'm working with. (To be clear, I like NJ, other than the tax situation.)
I live in Bucks Co. PA and many in the area commute to NYC via the train from Trenton or Hamilton.

The builder that built or home relocated to just west of Allentown PA 25 years ago. Ours was the last house he did in the area. I-78 was being completed through PA and NJ and he said the area west of Allentown was booming with NYC commuters from NJ escaping the high taxes.
lostinjersey
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by lostinjersey »

I second the suggestion of posting in the city-data.com forum. Or, poke around on it. There is a wealth of information on there that will help you narrow down your consideration set. Then you'll need to do some in person visits to find the town that's right for you. Good luck.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

pochax wrote:
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
pochax wrote:will assume you have a relatively high income since you are manhattan corporate attorney. i live in Bergen County. If you are okay with home prices in the $600k-1M+ values, consider these towns: Ridgewood (train), Glen Rock (train), Ho-ho-kus, Allendale, Tenafly. i have prioritized public school system for that short list, but if you are considering private school, you should consider a lower property tax area since you won't be using that school system. not sure if the last 3 have train access, but i am aware of lots of manhattan commuters from those towns. As previously mentioned, outside of Bergen County, Millburn is excellent. the city data forum suggestion is excellent as well.
Allendale and Ho-ho-kus are on the Bergen Line. Tenafly is bus or you drive to a train station. All of those towns btw, have high taxes and high property taxes - you'd think only rich folk lived there.
You are probably right about Ho-Ho-Kus and Tenafly (when i was looking for homes in 2011-2012 the cheapest 4BR2.5Bth i could find were low $700k, and prices have risen since then), but i would argue Allendale is slightly more affordable on the home prices, but the taxes are still up there. btw, i am not sure what you mean by "high taxes and high property taxes", the only significant taxes i pay for the town are the property taxes. What other taxes are you talking about?
I meant high property prices. But you could also include the "time tax or inconvienance tax" when you need to drive everywhere for anything. I looked at Allendale back in 'mid-08, the cheapest place a 3 bd/2 bath that needed $150K of work to bring it back into the modern era from the Brady Bunch time warp was $600K, it was set back from 17 and you needed a car if you wanted a bagel or a gallon of milk.
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larsm
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by larsm »

Surprised no one has mentioned Summit, Chatham or Madison. All are great towns.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

DoWahDaddy wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:PS I commuted into NYC for 20+ years, and you might be surprised what you can tolerate/not tolerate about the commute. I found that standing on the platform in the heat, cold, wet, etc., was much more bothersome than the duration of the commute. The trains are very comfortable and it can actually be a great time to read the paper, converse with friends, or decompress on the way home; I didn't find the time on the train to be a huge bother, but as I got older, the time on the platform became less and less acceptable. From what I've been told, the trains are more dependably on-time now.
An interesting tidbit about the commute is that most people think the train is more reliable than the bus, when in practice the opposite is actually true, even in bad weather. Plus, on the bus, you have your own lighting, and cushy seats. :D

Disclosure: We continue to have an enormous investment in Thomas the Tank Engine.
Except when the bus breaks down because the A/C unit wasn't properly maintained or overheats in the stifling summer cookers. :wink: Or you get someone who says "im saving my seat for so and so, who ought to be here, but isn't". Or you have the new bus driver who doesn't read the sign about the "low ceiling on the ramp" but tries it anyway, gets stuck and backs up all the bus traffic down 9th ave. :oops: Then the wait time gets ridiculous, just ask the folks who take a bus in Montclair how reliable their service is. :P
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

larsm wrote:Surprised no one has mentioned Summit, Chatham or Madison. All are great towns.
Sure, if money is no object. :moneybag
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
larsm wrote:Surprised no one has mentioned Summit, Chatham or Madison. All are great towns.
Sure, if money is no object. :moneybag
Since they're not in Essex County, their taxes are a bit lower than Millburn, but they are still pricey. I think Summit is out, but there are parts of Chatham and Madison that are affordable (and, to be sure, parts that are not 6-digit prices).
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
amfox1
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by amfox1 »

Kevin21 wrote:I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
I would add South Orange to the list. Maplewood and South Orange share a school district, are on the Midtown Direct line (which has trains running directly into Penn Station) and do not have obscenely long commute times. Essex County does have higher taxes, but the taxes are deductible, so it is not as bad as it could be.

I would definitely recommend living in a town with a train line. Busing into the city is manageable, but far from ideal.

I moved out of NYC to the NJ burbs approx. 18 years ago. Feel free to PM me, if you want more information.
arsenalfan
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by arsenalfan »

Montclair NJ. Mix of blue and white collar. Stephen Colbert's home. Great commercial and residential mix.
amfox1
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by amfox1 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:Millburn (including Short Hills) and Maplewood are extremely convenient via train to Midtown and almost as convenient to downtown. Maplewood is a very diverse town, and many NYC residents feel at home there; most of the parents I know who live in Maplewood use a private school, especially for high school. Property taxes are lower in Maplewood than Millburn/Short Hills. The schools in Millburn/SH are highly rated; my personal view is that realtors perpetuate the party line that it's one of the best school systems in the state and country. My oldest went all the way through public schools, but the two youngest are attending a great private school.
One quibble with TT's post is about the Maplewood-South Orange school system. The school system is very good through high school if your child/ren are good students. There are many diverse student groups and activities for high school students. If your child/ren are not good students or have special needs, then I would recommend a different high school.

Maplewood and South Orange are much more diverse than Millburn/Short Hills. Not saying one is better, just that they provide different experiences. I would also note that Maplewood and South Orange have more starter stock than towns like Millburn/Short Hills, so that you could begin with a smaller house and move up after you get to learn the neighborhoods. That's what we did.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

amfox1 wrote:
Kevin21 wrote:I lived in NJ for a while --- check out Millburn and Maplewood.
I would add South Orange to the list. Maplewood and South Orange share a school district, are on the Midtown Direct line (which has trains running directly into Penn Station) and do not have obscenely long commute times. Essex County does have higher taxes, but the taxes are deductible, so it is not as bad as it could be.

I would definitely recommend living in a town with a train line. Busing into the city is manageable, but far from ideal.

I moved out of NYC to the NJ burbs approx. 18 years ago. Feel free to PM me, if you want more information.
Surely you jest about tax deductibility? and on the Bogleheads forum too! The taxes are deductible up to $10K, after that you eat every penny of it and more. As soon as the OP purchases a $10K tax+ home, watch how fast TaxCaster will place him in AMT la-la land! It's like the Twilight zone!
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

arsenalfan wrote:Montclair NJ. Mix of blue and white collar. Stephen Colbert's home. Great commercial and residential mix.
Montclair is in Essex Cty, it's also like the town of have and have-nots, boasts 6 train stops but you will pay dearly in property taxation for it. It is home to a Whole Paycheck where one orange will set you back $5, but the real money resides in Upper Montclair - cha-ching! A number of people send their kids to private, so tell me would you want to pay $18K in property tax, only to have to spend $20K+ on private school?
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amfox1
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by amfox1 »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Surely you jest about tax deductibility? and on the Bogleheads forum too! The taxes are deductible up to $10K, after that you eat every penny of it and more. As soon as the OP purchases a $10K tax+ home, watch how fast TaxCaster will place him in AMT la-la land! It's like the Twilight zone!
The $10k you mention is a state item. I was focused on the Federal deductibility. As for AMT la-la land, everyone has to figure out where they fall in the federal tax scheme. If OP works in NY and lives in NJ, OP will have to file Federal, NY and NJ taxes, at least (with an offset for NY taxes on OP's NJ return).
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

amfox1 wrote:One quibble with TT's post is about the Maplewood-South Orange school system. The school system is very good through high school if your child/ren are good students. There are many diverse student groups and activities for high school students. If your child/ren are not good students or have special needs, then I would recommend a different high school.

Maplewood and South Orange are much more diverse than Millburn/Short Hills. Not saying one is better, just that they provide different experiences. I would also note that Maplewood and South Orange have more starter stock than towns like Millburn/Short Hills, so that you could begin with a smaller house and move up after you get to learn the neighborhoods. That's what we did.
A small quibble in turn with amfox's post. Millburn/Short Hills schools are exceptional for special needs kids and also for students who have been "identified" as high achieving. The school system falls down in the identification process.

I don't disagree about Maplewood's diversity. When we go out to eat, 80% of the time Maplewood is the destination. It is a very inclusive and warmly accepting town with townspeople who it is a pleasure to be around. Had we known then what we know now, we might well have moved to Maplewood, but then again that all took place 30 years ago. A curious fact is that many of the Millburn/Short Hills families who attend the same private school that my kids do cite the greater diversity at the private school as a draw.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:A number of people send their kids to private, so tell me would you want to pay $18K in property tax, only to have to spend $20K+ on private school?
A good Boglehead might gripe about it and search for an alternative, but will spend money on what matters to them :D

To each his own.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
goodenoughinvestor
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by goodenoughinvestor »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
arsenalfan wrote:Montclair NJ. Mix of blue and white collar. Stephen Colbert's home. Great commercial and residential mix.
Montclair is in Essex Cty, it's also like the town of have and have-nots, boasts 6 train stops but you will pay dearly in property taxation for it. It is home to a Whole Paycheck where one orange will set you back $5, but the real money resides in Upper Montclair - cha-ching! A number of people send their kids to private, so tell me would you want to pay $18K in property tax, only to have to spend $20K+ on private school?
This is really distorted. Most Montclair families DO send their kids to the public schools--and, in fact, moved to Montclair from Manhattan, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, etc. precisely because the town offers high-quality schools along with an atmosphere that is not the typical suburban "bubble." Montclair is economically and racially diverse, has a university, minor league baseball team, well-regarded art museum, independent bookstores, farmer's market, antique stores, great restaurants, etc. Yes, the property values are high, but they are also high in Millburn/Short Hills and most of suburban Essex County. The same house costs less in Montclair than in Short Hills. (BTW, the "real money" is absolutely NOT just in the Upper Montclair zip code.) Yes, there are well regarded private schools in town but the majority of their students are not Montclair kids. And yes, there's a Whole Foods, but plenty of other supermarkets as well.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by jon-nyc »

I was facing a similar decision last year. Someone framed it this way: good schools, reasonable commute, reasonable taxes. Pick any two.


We chose schools and commute, so we ended up in Westchester. When NJ was still in play, we had Ridgewood, Chatham, and Madison on our long list, as well as a few others already mentioned.


Edit to add: of course 'reasonable' is relative.
209south
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by 209south »

Lots of great choices in NJ - I have lived very happily in Montclair for over 25 years - our kids went the private school route but we have many good friends who swear by the public - a New York Magazine cover story years ago described Montclair as 'the Upper West Side of the suburbs' - as has been said, great restaurants, wonderful art museum, a university with great momentum etc. - definitely worth a look.

I'm also a fan of neighboring towns like Glen Ridge and Verona, and while I don't know South Orange well I do know it has some wonderful old neighborhoods. All have high taxes (like the entire area), but house prices are far lower in these towns than Summit, Short Hills, Ridgewood, etc., largely due to the diversity we enjoy, but which keeps some people away! The first house we looked at in Montclair in the late-80s was an 8BR (!)/3.5 Ba victorian that was priced at $325,000 - likely $700 today - there are lots of great homes here in the $600-$800k range

I don't know Maplewood well, but have heard it described in terms similar to Montclair so worth a look.

Feel free to PM if you want to find a good realtor to spend a morning with you and your wife. Before moving to Montclair we spent days in Summit, Short Hills, Park Slope and Rye - we made our choice and 25 years later are very happy.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by westie »

I'd go to Red Bank in Monmouth County and take the train to NYC.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

OK, I am not sure that all these responses can really be helpful, you are getting lots of choices and clearly you and your wife will need to establish some priorities. With family in Waldwick and Somerville, looking to not pay private school tuition and a commute to Lower Manhattan each day some of them are set.

Having grown up in the region and with family still there, I find that many of the high end suburbs (that are what most of the responses have included) are deadening, large homes on property that can be isolated from one another, huge grounds to maintain ($$), and needing a car to get anywhere. Obviously, there are many exceptions in the proffered suggestions but living on 1/2 acre in some nether region of Bergen County is my idea of a not very good idea, your priorities may differ.

I will add to the confusion by suggesting Highland Park: Rutgers is just across the river, from the right parts of town you can walk to the train in New Brunswick and be in Penn Station is less than an hour (there is also bus service!), you can walk to restaurants (Thai, Middle Eastern, Pizza, Korean not mostly "fine "dining but good everyday family joints) and shopping, Whole Paycheck is mercifully absent (but in a few miles reach), decent schools (my nephews went there, one is a college professor the other an academic librarian), and a wonderfully diverse community. There are parks to share with your neighbors and if you're jonesing for big boxes, they are within a 15-20 minute drive.

There is great medical care at Robert Wood Johnson hospital, the drive to Newark Airport is 35 minutes, Kennedy can be done in less than an hour, if you need Amtrak a 20 minute drive gets you to a station.

Otherwise, I would second Montclair, a little more precious perhaps but also a great community and more central to the Somerville-Waldwick axis.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by JDaniels »

I would recommend the East Hanover, Whippany, Florham Park areas.

Very easy commute to NYC via train in next town (Morristown)

Lower taxed area than comparable NJ towns.

Excellent school systems.

Good luck!
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by john94549 »

We lived in Central Jersey (near Cranbury) and loved it. Mind you, it is near no rail lines, is not known as a "commuting" area, no person we knew worked in NYC or environs, etc. Commuting anywhere required show shoes, snow tires, etc. I was in the Navy at the time, it was an adventure. Jersey, not the Navy.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by coacher »

Bergen - Ridgewood/Oradell
Essex - Millburn/Livingston
Middlesex - East Brunswick
Monmouth - Holmdel
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by dewey »

larsm wrote:Surprised no one has mentioned Summit, Chatham or Madison. All are great towns.
+1 Agreed. I lived in Summit in the early 80's. They had several excellent elementary schools--a university colleague of mine did considerable research on the Summit schools which is how I came to know of them and moved there for a few years.
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huntertheory
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by huntertheory »

Some fantastic responses here -- thanks so much and I will follow up more. A couple of quick notes:

1) My bigger concern on the commute is not just the time it takes me, but my job is fairly variable and it isn't always (or even often) feasible to leave at a set time and catch "my train." My concern with a 90 or 90+ minute commute is less about time spent on the train than 3 additional daily hours when I'm not at home with my family. I know that's part of moving out of NYC, but I'm curious if anyone can speak to their experience of dealing with that.

2) I'll ask on the City Data forum too, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on making the decision between public and private schools in these towns in NJ and what you did for research. I don't feel strongly either way though I thought it was an interesting thought that if you are set on private schools you can kind of have an arbitrage by living in a lower property tax area.

Thanks again.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by pochax »

huntertheory wrote:Some fantastic responses here -- thanks so much and I will follow up more. A couple of quick notes:

1) My bigger concern on the commute is not just the time it takes me, but my job is fairly variable and it isn't always (or even often) feasible to leave at a set time and catch "my train." My concern with a 90 or 90+ minute commute is less about time spent on the train than 3 additional daily hours when I'm not at home with my family. I know that's part of moving out of NYC, but I'm curious if anyone can speak to their experience of dealing with that.

2) I'll ask on the City Data forum too, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on making the decision between public and private schools in these towns in NJ and what you did for research. I don't feel strongly either way though I thought it was an interesting thought that if you are set on private schools you can kind of have an arbitrage by living in a lower property tax area.

Thanks again.
Regarding your question #2: i agree that if you decide to send your kids to private school, it allows you to locate yourself in a lower-tax area. however, indirectly, if home value/appreciation/resistance to market depreciation is very important to you, that is tied to the public school system regardless of whether you are using it. the fact is, the towns with better public schools tend to have their home values endure during tough times (not immune of course, but do better than others). plus if something were to happen such that you were no longer able to afford public school, how would you feel about sending your kids to the system in which you live? this affected our decision and we still bought in a "good" school system town even though we send our kids to private school currently.
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by DoWahDaddy »

huntertheory wrote:Some fantastic responses here -- thanks so much and I will follow up more. A couple of quick notes:

1) My bigger concern on the commute is not just the time it takes me, but my job is fairly variable and it isn't always (or even often) feasible to leave at a set time and catch "my train." My concern with a 90 or 90+ minute commute is less about time spent on the train than 3 additional daily hours when I'm not at home with my family. I know that's part of moving out of NYC, but I'm curious if anyone can speak to their experience of dealing with that.

2) I'll ask on the City Data forum too, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on making the decision between public and private schools in these towns in NJ and what you did for research. I don't feel strongly either way though I thought it was an interesting thought that if you are set on private schools you can kind of have an arbitrage by living in a lower property tax area.

Thanks again.
1) Train/bus time becomes you time. Either you do additional work (privately, which is wonderful if you don't have an office) or you catch up on reading, sleeping, personal finance, listening to music, watching streaming movies, holiday gift planning, anything you like to do in peace and quiet. This becomes part of your life, you adapt to this the same everyone does to every change in our lives.

2) I would bet that if you find a few towns that you prefer, you will find the public schools more than adequate, and a vast majority of students matriculating to continued education. Consider yourself lucky in this regard.
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Except when the bus breaks down because the A/C unit wasn't properly maintained or overheats in the stifling summer cookers. :wink: Or you get someone who says "im saving my seat for so and so, who ought to be here, but isn't". Or you have the new bus driver who doesn't read the sign about the "low ceiling on the ramp" but tries it anyway, gets stuck and backs up all the bus traffic down 9th ave. :oops: Then the wait time gets ridiculous, just ask the folks who take a bus in Montclair how reliable their service is. :P
Baa! Much fewer issues than on the train. Sure the bus caught fire once, but ask the people who train through the Bronx if they've never had any issues.

Seriously though, keep it up, your posts are always great to read!

DWD
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by gerrym51 »

i lived in new jersey for 5 years and occasionnaly had to go into the city. I suggest looking for a new job out side the city and move to that area.
goodenoughinvestor
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by goodenoughinvestor »

Re the commute: Look for a town that has both regular commuter train AND bus service into NYC. Plenty NJ towns do. Take the train during "regular" rush hours because you will have far fewer delays than on a bus which suffers at the whims of traffic and the maddening tie-ups around the Lincoln Tunnel, for example. But use the bus if you're going in early or working late--ie, when traffic is low. At those times a bus can be a much faster commute--especially if there's a bus stop in walking distance to your home. So, again, find a town that offers both!
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by TomatoTomahto »

huntertheory wrote: ...
1) My bigger concern on the commute is not just the time it takes me, but my job is fairly variable and it isn't always (or even often) feasible to leave at a set time and catch "my train." My concern with a 90 or 90+ minute commute is less about time spent on the train than 3 additional daily hours when I'm not at home with my family. I know that's part of moving out of NYC, but I'm curious if anyone can speak to their experience of dealing with that.

...
Since my job dealt a lot with London and Paris, getting into work early was not only acceptable but also a plus. I "missed" family time when everyone was sleeping anyway, but very often would be home by 4PM. It depends on your job; would you be able to leave at a reasonable time in the afternoon if you came in at 6AM or so?

I don't know where you work or live, but unless you live in the building you work in, you can't say "3 additional daily hours" that you wouldn't be with your family. My wife lived in the city before moving out here, and getting from uptown to downtown wasn't instantaneous either :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
amfox1
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Re: Where in New Jersey to buy home with NYC commute, childr

Post by amfox1 »

huntertheory wrote:Some fantastic responses here -- thanks so much and I will follow up more. A couple of quick notes:

1) My bigger concern on the commute is not just the time it takes me, but my job is fairly variable and it isn't always (or even often) feasible to leave at a set time and catch "my train." My concern with a 90 or 90+ minute commute is less about time spent on the train than 3 additional daily hours when I'm not at home with my family. I know that's part of moving out of NYC, but I'm curious if anyone can speak to their experience of dealing with that.

2) I'll ask on the City Data forum too, but curious if anyone has any thoughts on making the decision between public and private schools in these towns in NJ and what you did for research. I don't feel strongly either way though I thought it was an interesting thought that if you are set on private schools you can kind of have an arbitrage by living in a lower property tax area.

Thanks again.
1) Same as most others - read the paper, listen to podcasts on the way in; do the same, work or talk to fellow commuters on the way home. If your commute is an hour, then it is two hours versus whatever your current commute in the city is now. In the mornings everyone was scrambling to get to school/work/etc, so I would only view the lost family time as the commute home. Our strong desire when we moved out was a 60 minute commute to midtown and Wall Street.

2) Schooling was also a major issue when we moved out of the city (even though we did not have children at the time). We were strong public school advocates, so we moved to a town with a solid school system. If we were private school people, we probably would have considered towns with lower property taxes and less highly regarded school systems (often, they go hand-in-hand).

I would suggest going to Zillow or a similar site, typing in some housing parameters (price, size, taxes, etc) and poking around the various towns just to see what is realistic.
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