Thoughts on having kids?

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assumer
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Thoughts on having kids?

Post by assumer »

As a mid-20's male, I have not yet decided if I want to have kids in the future (or marriage for that sake). I am interested in hearing from those who chose not to have kids and whether or not you regret it. Also I doubt anyone would admit it but those who have kids and perhaps wonder what life would have been if you didn't :!:

Is this even the appropriate subforum for this? It seemed closest.
goaties
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by goaties »

I'm guessing you're posting this here because you want to mull over the financial considerations of having kids. I think most would say they are very very expensive. However, you might get one or two of your offspring to take care of you in your dotage (if you're lucky), thus saving a great deal on nursing home care. Maybe. So, it could be a wash.

I don't think these things can be predecided, unless you are certain you are not parent material. If you think you might be parent material, and meet someone who seems to be as well, go for it! Otherwise, leave this most difficult task to those who are emotionally equipped to do so. Judging strictly from my own observations, I would say about 30% of the population should actually have kids. The rest of us should just find an engrossing hobby.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

I am 50 (male) and am childfree (not childLESS, which means you have no kids but want to have them). I have known this since I was 20 years old. I was able to parlay this into being able to retire 5 years ago at age 45. If you search the Net, you will find very, very little about regret from those who are childfree. But if you do a similar search for parents who regret having kids, you will find no shortage of them.

I am sure there will be many who reply here who will boast about how it is so great having kids blah blah blah and how they would never have had it any other way. But how many parents in this forum would actually post about how they regretted having them?

You seem to be what we in the childfree world describe as a "fence-sitter" but is leaning toward being childfree. If you remain childfree, you will enjoy a lot of personal freedom, peace and quiet, and have more money. I shudder to think how awful my life would have been if I followed the so-called "life script" and had kids. I'd be poorer, have far less peace and quiet, and far less freedom (and could not be an early retiree, by far my greatest personal achievement).

And just because you are childfree does not prevent you from getting a "kid fix" if you want one. With some of my free time (due, ironically, to being childfree), I do some volunteer work with kids, just enough to keep me happy but always glad to be able to come home to my quiet place and be free of them until the next time. I also get to send those kids back to their parents a lot happier than when they left them.
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3CT_Paddler
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

It's a personal decision. Kids require time, sacrifice and money. But there are definite unquantifiable rewards to raising kids. You walk in the door from work and have your little girl run in your arms. I can't put a dollar amount on what that means to me. (And there are plenty of days when raising kids feels like work, but you take the good with the bad).
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by RadAudit »

scrabbler1 wrote:With some of my free time ... , I do some volunteer work with kids, just enough to keep me happy but always glad to be able to come home to my quiet place and be free of them until the next time. I also get to send those kids back to their parents a lot happier than when they left them.
Sounds similar to the joys of being a grandparent without having to wait 25 to 30 years
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

I am not married and do not have kids. I don't regret not having kids. I think marriage can be very hazardous unless you find the right person - and good if you do in fact find the right person. And I feel that you should not even consider having kids unless you are married to the right person and have a healthy, stable relationship that has persisted for some time. The costs of making a mistake in this area are just too grave.
Last edited by Call_Me_Op on Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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livesoft
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by livesoft »

goaties wrote:I think most would say they are very very expensive.
I guess I am not one of most. I think the above statement is a myth that is perpetuated in the media and in forums like this.

I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive. I don't know why one would want to make them expensive unless they had a lot of money to blow on them. Perhaps it is not politically correct, but look at how many kids are born and raised in low-income families all over the world. That by itself, is absolute proof that kids are not expensive. Sure, those families don't have a choice about spending lots more on their kids. But most others do have a choice and that's a choice they make for themselves.

Anyways, kids are cheap and inexpensive, so finances are not a real consideration in this choice.

Full disclosure: I was child-free until my late 30's, so much older than the OP. I will be child-free in a few more years because my children are young adults now.
Last edited by livesoft on Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Call_Me_Op
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

livesoft wrote:
goaties wrote:I think most would say they are very very expensive.
I guess I am not one of most. I think the above statement is a myth that is perpetuated in the media and in forums like this.

I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive.
Kids are only expensive if you divorce.
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soaring
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by soaring »

Married 40 yrs with no children by choice. I have never regretted that decision. Nothing in my childhood made me not want children. I just "felt" then and now that I never would have attained financial stability (not wealth just stable) had I not made that decision long before marriage.

Wife agreed at the time but she regrets the decision we made as the years moved on.

We both enjoy children and search them out sometimes but enjoy going home without them and the freedoms of choice to do so much more. Is that selfish? Maybe but was a good decision for me.

As others have stated it is a very personal choice.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

livesoft wrote:
goaties wrote:I think most would say they are very very expensive.
I guess I am not one of most. I think the above statement is a myth that is perpetuated in the media and in forums like this.

I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive. I don't know why one would want to make them expensive unless they had a lot of money to blow on them. Perhaps it is not politically correct, but look at how many kids are born and raised in low-income families all over the world. That by itself, is absolute proof that kids are not expensive. Sure, those families don't have a choice about spending lots more on their kids. But most others do have a choice and that's a choice they make for themselves.

Anyways, kids are cheap and inexpensive, so finances are not a real consideration in this choice.

Full disclosure: I was child-free until my late 30's, so much older than the OP. I will be child-free in a few more years because my children are young adults now.
I believe that it is a myth that kids are not expensive. The costs may not be fully borne by the parents but they have to be borne by someone, and that someone is all too often the taxpayers (Welfare, SNAP, public schools, criminal justice system for the too many badly raised kids by poorer, often single-parent households). I wish more people would consider the financial costs of having kids instead of thinking, "We'll manage, somehow," only to realize later that the can't afford them, unable to save money and going into debt.

And with all due respect, please do not misuse the term "childfree." The term childfree refers to people like me who do not have any children, never had any children, and never wanted to have any children. You were not childfree before you had your first kid, you were childLESS. And you won't be childfree in a few more years, you will be an empty-nester. It always annoys those of us in the childfree world when parents abuse the use of this term which is meant to describe those of us who don't have kids and don't want to have kids.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by sscritic »

I love my grandkids, my kids not so much. But you can't have the former without the latter, or so it seems.

Is that a good reason to have kids? I would say so (I was about to lie and say I was off to the Y to see my grandkids, but that won't actually happen until this afternoon).
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by climber2020 »

There was an interesting article published earlier this year regarding this topic that stirred up a lot of conversation:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -life.html

I'm early 30's with no desire at all to have children; doesn't fit the type of life I want to live, and I would end up with the same attitude toward them as the woman who wrote the above article.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

livesoft wrote:I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive.
I partially agree. I do think well off parents are going to spend lots of their income on kids in the form of private schools, camps, clothes, college and in general are going to live in an expensive area where those extra rooms will cost a premium. When they add up all those extra "costs" it looks like kids are crazy expensive, when its more of a consumption choice.

But there is certainly a cost for your average middle income family in the form of daycare or loss of one spouses earnings, and other smaller expenses add up in the form of diapers, food, etc.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

climber2020 wrote:There was an interesting article published earlier this year regarding this topic that stirred up a lot of conversation:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -life.html
The author of that article comes-across as cold. I'm glad my parents didn't feel like her. People should only have kids if they really want them. Having them and not welcoming them is something I cannot respect.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

scrabbler1 wrote:I believe that it is a myth that kids are not expensive. The costs may not be fully borne by the parents but they have to be borne by someone, and that someone is all too often the taxpayers (Welfare, SNAP, public schools, criminal justice system for the too many badly raised kids by poorer, often single-parent households). I wish more people would consider the financial costs of having kids instead of thinking, "We'll manage, somehow," only to realize later that the can't afford them, unable to save money and going into debt.
So should you be thanking those who are willing to raise children who will later become the future taxpayers of America?

I have a sneaking suspicion that Livesoft's children will be in that camp. :)
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by goaties »

Call_Me_Op wrote: The author of that article comes-across as cold. I'm glad my parents didn't feel like her. People should only have kids if they really want them. Having them and not welcoming them is something I cannot respect.
She sounds like a classic introvert: happiest doing solo pursuits. A personality type that is definitely going to have a hard time with parenthood! How unfortunate that our culture still relentlessly assumes we all want to breed and pressures us to do so. Hopefully, the OP will be able to resist, if that's how he decides to go.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

3CT_Paddler wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:I believe that it is a myth that kids are not expensive. The costs may not be fully borne by the parents but they have to be borne by someone, and that someone is all too often the taxpayers (Welfare, SNAP, public schools, criminal justice system for the too many badly raised kids by poorer, often single-parent households). I wish more people would consider the financial costs of having kids instead of thinking, "We'll manage, somehow," only to realize later that the can't afford them, unable to save money and going into debt.
So should you be thanking those who are willing to raise children who will later become the future taxpayers of America?

I have a sneaking suspicion that Livesoft's children will be in that camp. :)
I "thank" them with the extra tax dollars I pay which go to the public school system I will never use, for the tax credits given to those who made this lifestyle choice, and to incarcerate those who do not become future taxpayers but become burdens on everyone, including those with children.

Here is a nice article about childfree "regret" (it is snarky, be warned).

http://hikinghumanist.com/2013/03/28/wh ... childfree/
Alf 101
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Alf 101 »

If I may, I might like to steer this thread back to a financial perspective. Let's say, as is the case, I do not have children. Let's also say, and this is not hypothetical, that I'm married and feel pretty good about it. Having children is something we've talked about, and is something that may be in the cards in the near future.

For those with children, thinking back to the birth of your first child, what was unexpected financially? I would suspect there are added costs -- like everyone else, they need to eat, live somewhere, wear clothes, and visit the doctor. You anticipate these costs, incorporate them into a monthly budget, then follow it.

Simple enough, but there's theory and there's practice. What was most eye-opening financially with your first child?
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by vectorizer »

This topic pops up now and then, here's two from a couple years ago.
Did you consider the financial aspects of having children?
Question for bogleheads with no kids

Many people considering having kids think in terms of having kids that are in the middle of the bell curve. That's natural. But remember that besides the normal challenges of having normal kids, you are also taking a chance that your child will have big problems that will strain your finances and emotional health and your marriage. That doesn't mean "don't do it", but you should evaluate all the risks before making that big decision.

FWIW, here's a post I wrote in a darker mood in the latter linked topic (updated slightly):
OP, having kids is a crapshoot. You might have an easy one where your biggest complaint will be damp towels left on the floor. Or, you might have a kid so severely depressed that on any given morning, when you wake her up for school, you have to steal yourself because you might find her dead. This was our case. Money will be the least of your concerns. It can change a person, change your whole outlook on life, make you second guess your fitness as parent and a human being.

And we're not the only ones. Our best friends, 1 out of their 3 kids has severe ADD with violent tendencies and they are now divorced as a result. Sister-in-law, 1 out of their 3 kids has moderately severe autism. Are you ready for that crapshoot? Forget the money. The question is: do you feel lucky? Are you ready to bet your life? I envy every poster who says something like "best thing I ever did, best thing I my life, no regrets". It's like investing or gambling: the winners always shout about it, those with poorer results are (usually) silent about it.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by investingdad »

I disagree about the introvert having a tough time with parenthood.

I'm an ISTP with the introversion score pretty much as far over as you can get. And yes, I enjoy solo pursuits very much. When I take a day off, I get up early so I can play a round of golf by myself, go to lunch (sushi!) by myself, and kick around in the woods behind my house or tend garden...by myself. It's GREAT!

But I'm happily married and have two young children, 8 and 6. Unlike at work where I find constant interaction with coworkers to be exhausting, I seldom find the time I spend playing with my kids to be tiring in the same way. So suggesting that an introvert is going to have a hard time with parenthood is just more bias against introversion. For some reason many extroverts seem to think that introversion is a weakness or flaw.

I will agree that children take away free time, cut into personal pursuits, and will cut into financial goals. It can be stressfull and will probably only get to be more so. And not having kids is absolutely the right choice for many folks.

I will also add that I have zero explanation for why I am able to derive so much satisfaction sitting on the sidelines in 40F temperatures watching them play soccer. :happy
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

Vectorizer,

Good point. Not to go too far off topic, but I have a niece and a nephew who are severely autistic. It is an understatement to call this a tragedy, and it has resulted in great sacrifice, difficulty, and heart-break for the affected parents and the broader family. Having children is indeed a roll of the dice.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Rupert »

assumer wrote:As a mid-20's male, I have not yet decided if I want to have kids in the future (or marriage for that sake). I am interested in hearing from those who chose not to have kids and whether or not you regret it. Also I doubt anyone would admit it but those who have kids and perhaps wonder what life would have been if you didn't :!:

Is this even the appropriate subforum for this? It seemed closest.
Fortunately, this is not a decision that you have to make right now. And you might be surprised how your opinion on the matter changes as you age. In my mid-twenties, I didn't think I wanted to have children. In fact, I was absolutely certain that I did not. But by my mid-thirties I was absolutely certain that I did want children. Do I sometimes regret it? No. What kind of person regrets having their children? Maybe if your kid is a psychopath or something. You love your children so completely and so -- I don't know -- profoundly that it's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't have kids. Holding your child in your arms for the first time changes you at a molecular level. Do I sometimes daydream about what my life would've been like without them and think about all the things I could buy or the trips I could take if I didn't have the expense of my children? Of course. Everybody does that. But I would still make the same choice a million times if given the chance.

Are kids expensive? It depends. If you have one healthy kid and live where there are good public schools, not so expensive. Or, rather, I should say, that kid will be as expensive as you want him/her to be. Pretty much the same for two healthy kids. Once you reach three, though, you'll probably need a bigger car and probably a bigger house, etc.

Life's a crapshoot and it's stupid to try and compare the richness of one person's life to another's. It's all about what you value, what makes YOU happy. So I recommend not asking people whether they regret having kids or regret not having kids. Their answers have no application to your life.
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danwhite77
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by danwhite77 »

Only people that want to have kids should have kids, of course.

I'd just like to point out to the childfree people that you're lucky your parents didn't feel that way!

My four kids are the most important part of my life. Having a child is the greatest gift of time, energy, and money that parents ever make.

Sometimes the return on investment can't be measured in dollars and cents.
"While some mutual fund founders chose to make billions, he chose to make a difference." - Dedication to Jack Bogle in 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing'.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by bottlecap »

Asking this question of people who didn't have kids is not go to yield any useful information. They a) didn't have kids so they don't know if there's anything to regret and b) are human, so they are hardwired to believe their choice was the correct one unless reality slaps them in the face hard.

Note that getting answers from people who have kids is similarly flawed. Very few regret having kids unless they later determine they hate their kids. The slight difference is that most people that have had kids know what it's like to be without kids, but it's not enough of a differnece for them to be able to provide information relevant to you.

So the decision is uniquely personal to you. However, you don't have to make up your mind yet if you're in your twenties. Don't sweat a big decision you don't have to make now. If the time comes and you don't want them, or if financial conecerns override the desire, don't have them. I'd also say if you are at all concerned with the financial consequences of having a disabled child, then you don't really want a healthy child, either. No one wants more difficulties, but if you truly want children something like that chance won't weigh heavily on your mind.

Good luck,

JT
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by rec7 »

I knew a couple that did not have kids. They were worth about 5 million. Most of the money went to their brothers and sisters kids. Something to think about. If you don't work for your own kids will you end up working for you brother and sisters kids? A lot of younger people don't think of this angle. I know when I was in my 20's I would have not thought about it.
Last edited by rec7 on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by NoVa Lurker »

My wife and I have young kids. We waited until our 30s to start. It is a lot of work, but we love it.

I suspect we would have loved it a bit less had we started earlier. Parenthood involves a ton of sacrifices, but those sacrifices seem smaller when you've already traveled extensively, had work achievements, etc.

At the margin, it has not been expensive for us, so far. We had a baby shower for #1 and got gifts; we got most clothes and toys as hand-me-downs; and we already had a house with space. The one big cost is day care, since my wife and I both work full-time. My wife will be doing a one-year sabbatical when the next kid comes along this spring, and that is obviously a huge cost, in terms of foregone income.

I know things will change as the kids get older and more complicated. It is already clear that we do not control how their personalities develop - we can try to influence the changes, but we can't control them. The kids may also get more expensive in the future, with activities, etc.

But right now, being a parent is the most awesome experience I have ever had. (Knocking on wood.)
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by reggiesimpson »

I have friends that have children (like myself) and others that dont. We had our first child when i was 40. As others have said its a very personal decision. Its very difficult at times and other times the joy and satisfaction is immeasurable.
Example....Shortly after our first child was born i dreamt that he had died! I woke up in a cold sweat terrified. Initially relieved that it was just a dream i quickly realized that i would be worried about him like this until i died. I started making deals with God.
Example....When he was 12 he played a flawless Flight of the Bumblebee on the piano in front of the entire school at Christmas. He got a standing ovation. My personal joy will be with me forever.
I couldnt see going through life without having children. Thats why we are here. IMHO.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by LH »

assumer wrote:As a mid-20's male, I have not yet decided if I want to have kids in the future (or marriage for that sake). I am interested in hearing from those who chose not to have kids and whether or not you regret it. Also I doubt anyone would admit it but those who have kids and perhaps wonder what life would have been if you didn't :!:

Is this even the appropriate subforum for this? It seemed closest.

Having kids is part of most humans biological programming, those that are not so programmed, don't pass on genes.

When I was in my teens twenties, a baby was akin to an object, if it was crying, an annoying object.

Now, 40s, having had kids, some switch has been thrown, and I really like babies. It's just biological. I don't think the emotional empathy centers are fully wired in a male until about 22-24, and even then, it's not like female wiring in amount.

You are at root, asking a statistical biology question. Since I do not know you. So yes, have kids human. You are wired for it. Like liking sweet taste and hating bile taste. Both are just arrangement of atoms, it's your wiring that determine what you like. There is some cognitive overlay, one could decide one supposes, to like vomit taste etc. it's all a gradient.

I see lots of people, whom I think regret not having kids, they treat pets, dogs, or deer, or something like kids. In your 60s 70s you want to still be dating? Or spending time with kids grand kids?
Last edited by LH on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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climber2020
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by climber2020 »

bottlecap wrote:Asking this question of people who didn't have kids is not go to yield any useful information. They a) didn't have kids so they don't know if there's anything to regret and b) are human, so they are hardwired to believe their choice was the correct one unless reality slaps them in the face hard.
True, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a person without that experience cannot reasonably deduce what the experience might be like.

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by TTU »

livesoft wrote:
goaties wrote:I think most would say they are very very expensive.
I guess I am not one of most. I think the above statement is a myth that is perpetuated in the media and in forums like this.

I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive. I don't know why one would want to make them expensive unless they had a lot of money to blow on them. Perhaps it is not politically correct, but look at how many kids are born and raised in low-income families all over the world. That by itself, is absolute proof that kids are not expensive. Sure, those families don't have a choice about spending lots more on their kids. But most others do have a choice and that's a choice they make for themselves.

Anyways, kids are cheap and inexpensive, so finances are not a real consideration in this choice.

Full disclosure: I was child-free until my late 30's, so much older than the OP. I will be child-free in a few more years because my children are young adults now.

I agree completely. Kids are expensive if you aren't willing to change your lifestyle when you have them. I have 3 kids under 4 and I married when I was 22. I save more money and have a much more responsible lifestyle than many of my peers and I am extremely comfortable and confident in my future and my ability to retire at a young age. In my conversations with others my age (and older) I am significantly better off financially.

My kids walk me out to my car in the freezing cold every morning to say goodbye before I go to work and are genuinely elated when I come home. Telling them stories before they go to bed is often the highlight of my day. My kids make me happier than any individualistic pursuit and any number in my bank account. Kids are awesome.
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Re: Thoughts on having children?

Post by VictoriaF »

Having children is somewhat similar to falling in love. You don't do it rationally, but once you are afflicted it outweighs all other considerations. Money becomes one of those "other considerations."

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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by sesq »

When my wife and I discussed marriage, we talked kids. She wanted 2 or 3. I wanted 0 or 2. We settled on 2 (8 & 5 at the moment).

We live comfortably, and they are a bit expensive (mostly the college fund, but a lot of death by a thousand paper cuts expenses) which could be economized if that's what we wanted to do. Beyond the money, so far its a lot of "work" (sleepless nights, activities, illness, routines to be kept). So from that perspective its good to have a strong sense of who is going to be your partner in this venture.

The dreaded teen years await us, but I'd say the net effect has increased my happiness in part by by giving me more purpose. I sort of hate the trite advice "enjoy it while it lasts". I found the comment "the days are long, but the years go by fast" to be more complete.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

climber2020 wrote:
bottlecap wrote:Asking this question of people who didn't have kids is not go to yield any useful information. They a) didn't have kids so they don't know if there's anything to regret and b) are human, so they are hardwired to believe their choice was the correct one unless reality slaps them in the face hard.
True, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a person without that experience cannot reasonably deduce what the experience might be like.

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Good point (about the [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]).

We childfree people know exactly what we are missing by not having kids. That is exactly why we choose not to have them. Any list of things is easily dismissed by us childfree people because all the items fall into one or both of the following categories:

(1) What they describe as positive things we childfree see as purely negative or at best having zero positive value.

(2) Even if we childfree see them as positive, we can get them from other places which do not have any negatives attached to them.

Instead, we childfree see our lifestyle choice as having only positive traits. For me, being childfree enabled me to retire at the age of 45, something which would have been impossible if I had kids. And what do I do with my economic freedom? I can do more volunteer work with several area schools.

We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.

The OP knows that the many parents in this forum are generally quite happy with their choices. What the OP wants to know if those of us who chose not to become parents are similarly happy in this pro-natalist world. That answer is YES.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Thoughts on having children?

Post by VictoriaF »

scrabbler1 wrote:Instead, we childfree see our lifestyle choice as having only positive traits. For me, being childfree enabled me to retire at the age of 45, something which would have been impossible if I had kids. And what do I do with my economic freedom? I can do more volunteer work with several area schools.
People with children not only work longer to accumulate the same level of assets as childfree/childless people, but they also work more at home while they are raising children. However, much of it is not a forced labor and can be pleasurable. Just as some people can retire and don't because they are satisfied with their jobs.
scrabbler1 wrote:We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.
Less money? Yes.
Loss of peace and quite? Yes, but peace and quiet can be boring.
Loss of personal freedom? Yes, but there are other limits of personal freedom we accept, such as working for vicious bosses.
Dealing with diapers? Yes, but that's probably the easiest part of having a child.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Thoughts on having children?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

VictoriaF wrote:Having children is somewhat similar to falling in love. You don't do it rationally, but once you are afflicted it outweighs all other considerations.
As I was approaching the age of 30, I didn't think very often of having children. Although I had been in some committed relationships, I was single when one day I realized that for the past few months, when walking down the street and seeing an attractive woman with a baby stroller, I was concentrating my attention on the baby in the stroller and not the woman pushing the stroller. Hmmmm.

Well, I've had 4 kids since and I have no regrets. That said, I have many friends who are intentionally childfree and for them, it was a valid and appropriate decision.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Thoughts on having children?

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

VictoriaF wrote:Having children is somewhat similar to falling in love. You don't do it rationally, but once you are afflicted it outweighs all other considerations. Money becomes one of those "other considerations."

Victoria
Yes and to add to that, falling in love with an idea or music or art is equally irrational. Rationality has its place, but I like Bogle's take in Enough... "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

scrabbler1 wrote:We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.
Scrabbler, I understand how many people say (intentionally or not) many offensive things to the childfree (e.g., you're selfish, you'll be sorry later, etc.). Fwiw, I've been called a "breeder," so insensitivity is not restricted to one side of this question. I don't, however, think it is useful to sound as defensive as you do. Applying your analysis to someone considering following a passion to play music, you'd have: "it's a purely negative experience. You'll have less money (good instruments are expensive), your family will lose peace and quiet, you will lose personal freedom (hours of having to practice, rehearse, and take lessons). The fact that you won't have stinky diapers is the only positive part of the experience."
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by davebo »

Kids are MOST DEFINITELY expensive; I don't know how someone can say that they are not. But most people probably don't think they are too expensive because:

1) Most people I know have kids in their 30's and that's when they started to earn more.
2) There are some sacrifices in general that are made that end up being financially beneficial to you, so it blunts some of the impact. For example, going out to eat, vacations, movies, etc.
3) People have told you how expensive it's going to be so it’s not as bad as you expected.

Sometimes I think about how rich and how much free time I would have if I didn't’t have kids, but that’s in NO WAY a regret for having kids. It’s the greatest thing in the world and I can’t imagine sitting around in my 30’s and 40’s without having kids. I had my fun traveling and goofing off in my 20’s, but I wouldn't want to do that in my 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s.

Kids are a total blast and they bring so much joy to you AND your family members.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by iceman »

scrabbler1 wrote:I believe that it is a myth that kids are not expensive. The costs may not be fully borne by the parents but they have to be borne by someone, and that someone is all too often the taxpayers (Welfare, SNAP, public schools, criminal justice system for the too many badly raised kids by poorer, often single-parent households). I wish more people would consider the financial costs of having kids instead of thinking, "We'll manage, somehow," only to realize later that the can't afford them, unable to save money and going into debt.
People who do not have a desire to have children shouldn't have them - it is good that taboos or "life scripts" are being broken down.

However, I don't understand this argument as it implies that the problem with kids isn't whether their particular parents actually wanted to have kids, but instead that children as a whole are a burden on society and that really we'd be better off without any of them. Who do you think will be paying for Medicare and Social Security? Is every "childfree" person so well off as to not need any of that support? Should elderly childfree people begrudge the education you received? Once you stop looking at an individual case (parent to have kids or not) and start looking at the aggregate, I think that there is value to all taxpayers, not just the ones with kids, in providing an education. Products you buy, services you consume, roads you drive on - designed and built by people who received an education. Providing that education benefits the entire society.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by swaption »

scrabbler1 wrote:I am 50 (male) and am childfree (not childLESS, which means you have no kids but want to have them). I have known this since I was 20 years old. I was able to parlay this into being able to retire 5 years ago at age 45. If you search the Net, you will find very, very little about regret from those who are childfree. But if you do a similar search for parents who regret having kids, you will find no shortage of them.

I am sure there will be many who reply here who will boast about how it is so great having kids blah blah blah and how they would never have had it any other way. But how many parents in this forum would actually post about how they regretted having them?.
Hopefully you don't view what I am about to say as blah, blah, blah. We are about the same age. I do occasionally think of an alternative universe. Sure it would have been fun. But my honest feeling is that I'd kind of view it as a life with a lower degree of difficulty. I'm no different as a person either way, it's just that the version of me as I am with kids seems more complete. Along the way, the added responsibility is at times overwhelming. And you have no safety net. But in some ways that is the human condition, and an alternate path misses that. Having said that, it's not for everyone. But I think one kids themselves with the charicature of parents rationalizing a miserable existence. Each to their own.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by tim1999 »

I'm in my early 30s, childfree, never married, will never get married, and I have no regrets whatsoever. It is not a popular position (and one that society in general opposes) but the freedoms one gains from this choice are numerous. The financial benefits are obvious. I also notice a difference in the workplace. The guys with 3 kids and a big mortgage seem to have an attitude of "I am a slave to this company because I need the paycheck and will do whatever they say" whereas the childfree folks have an attitude of "if this company jerks me around too much, I am leaving for another job or taking some time off."

Most older childfree/never married people that I know ended up retiring around ages 50-55, while maintaining a comfortable lifestyle.

There are internet forums centered on discussion of the childfree and/or single lifestyle, you may want to check them out, though like every forum they do have some "extremist" posters.

The only downside I've found in this choice is that sometimes I just have too much time on my hands, and with a high disposable income, it can be tempting to do something stupid with it.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by investingdad »

I always thought it was interesting that many people that choose not to have kids substitute in animals and call them their "children". You have animal hair all over the place, pay money for food and vet visits, must arrange for care of the animal when you're on vacation, and clean up animal poop.

Yet they'll tell you they didn't want kids because of the money, mess, noise, etc.

So why have pets?

I bet it's similar reasons for having kids. :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.
Scrabbler, I understand how many people say (intentionally or not) many offensive things to the childfree (e.g., you're selfish, you'll be sorry later, etc.). Fwiw, I've been called a "breeder," so insensitivity is not restricted to one side of this question. I don't, however, think it is useful to sound as defensive as you do. Applying your analysis to someone considering following a passion to play music, you'd have: "it's a purely negative experience. You'll have less money (good instruments are expensive), your family will lose peace and quiet, you will lose personal freedom (hours of having to practice, rehearse, and take lessons). The fact that you won't have stinky diapers is the only positive part of the experience."
I have seen the term "breeder" and it is not a good term to use. As to your comparison to musicians, it falls short because those who play musical instruments (and I am one of them) do not bingo those who do not play musical instruments. Those who play musical instruments do not receive preferential tax treatment or receive government handouts (NEA not withstanding) for making this choice. Bad musicians don't generally inflict their lack of musical talents onto the rest of society the way bad parenting inflicts bad children onto society.
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Re: Thoughts on having children?

Post by VictoriaF »

scrabbler1 wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.
Scrabbler, I understand how many people say (intentionally or not) many offensive things to the childfree (e.g., you're selfish, you'll be sorry later, etc.). Fwiw, I've been called a "breeder," so insensitivity is not restricted to one side of this question. I don't, however, think it is useful to sound as defensive as you do. Applying your analysis to someone considering following a passion to play music, you'd have: "it's a purely negative experience. You'll have less money (good instruments are expensive), your family will lose peace and quiet, you will lose personal freedom (hours of having to practice, rehearse, and take lessons). The fact that you won't have stinky diapers is the only positive part of the experience."
I have seen the term "breeder" and it is not a good term to use. As to your comparison to musicians, it falls short because those who play musical instruments (and I am one of them) do not bingo those who do not play musical instruments. Those who play musical instruments do not receive preferential tax treatment or receive government handouts (NEA not withstanding) for making this choice. Bad musicians don't generally inflict their lack of musical talents onto the rest of society the way bad parenting inflicts bad children onto society.
I don't understand the animosity on either side. People who decide to have children do it by their own choice. Frequently, they don't realize what they are getting themselves into, but in most cases the pleasures of having children compensate for the difficulties and frustrations.

People who decide not to have children make a personal choice. It may be a good choice or a bad choice for them, but that's their choice.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

iceman wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:I believe that it is a myth that kids are not expensive. The costs may not be fully borne by the parents but they have to be borne by someone, and that someone is all too often the taxpayers (Welfare, SNAP, public schools, criminal justice system for the too many badly raised kids by poorer, often single-parent households). I wish more people would consider the financial costs of having kids instead of thinking, "We'll manage, somehow," only to realize later that the can't afford them, unable to save money and going into debt.
People who do not have a desire to have children shouldn't have them - it is good that taboos or "life scripts" are being broken down.

However, I don't understand this argument as it implies that the problem with kids isn't whether their particular parents actually wanted to have kids, but instead that children as a whole are a burden on society and that really we'd be better off without any of them. Who do you think will be paying for Medicare and Social Security? Is every "childfree" person so well off as to not need any of that support? Should elderly childfree people begrudge the education you received? Once you stop looking at an individual case (parent to have kids or not) and start looking at the aggregate, I think that there is value to all taxpayers, not just the ones with kids, in providing an education. Products you buy, services you consume, roads you drive on - designed and built by people who received an education. Providing that education benefits the entire society.
The prolem wih Medicare and SS is the way those systems are set up. I have paid into SS, for other people's benefits, so I am hoping I will come close to breaking even (although if I never receive a dime I will be just fine). If the "solution" to SS is to simply "have more kids," then how is that different from a Ponzi scheme which relies on creating new "participants" in order for the system to avoid collapse? I never said nobody should have kids. I'd just like to see it not subsidized so heavily and encouraged so much. There are many kids who burden society far more than they will ever contribute to it. I want to see some better balance in acknowledging the negatives along with the positives. It is not just "products you buy, sercies you consume," but juvenile criminals who become adult criminals, unhealthy and disabled kids who work little if ever, and kids having kids who only perpetuate the cycle of poverty, alll drains on society's resources.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by HomerJ »

scrabbler1 wrote:
climber2020 wrote:
bottlecap wrote:Asking this question of people who didn't have kids is not go to yield any useful information. They a) didn't have kids so they don't know if there's anything to regret and b) are human, so they are hardwired to believe their choice was the correct one unless reality slaps them in the face hard.
True, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a person without that experience cannot reasonably deduce what the experience might be like.

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Good point (about the [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]).

We childfree people know exactly what we are missing by not having kids. That is exactly why we choose not to have them. Any list of things is easily dismissed by us childfree people because all the items fall into one or both of the following categories:

(1) What they describe as positive things we childfree see as purely negative or at best having zero positive value.

(2) Even if we childfree see them as positive, we can get them from other places which do not have any negatives attached to them.

Instead, we childfree see our lifestyle choice as having only positive traits. For me, being childfree enabled me to retire at the age of 45, something which would have been impossible if I had kids. And what do I do with my economic freedom? I can do more volunteer work with several area schools.

We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.

The OP knows that the many parents in this forum are generally quite happy with their choices. What the OP wants to know if those of us who chose not to become parents are similarly happy in this pro-natalist world. That answer is YES.
I 100% support your decision, but I find your arguments very unconvincing when you say things like "We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience."

I can certainly understand where you weigh the positives and the negatives, and make a choice different from me. But to say that having kids adds NOTHING to the positive column tells me that no, you do NOT "know exactly what you are missing by not having kids"
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by Barefootgirl »

I have one child, now a young adult on her own (mostly).

I don't believe the emotional benefits of parenthood are measurable (at least not for me).

The financial obligations are significant, but only due to a few reasons, all culture-based-

(1) Adults can easily fend off social pressure to acquire material goods and it need not impact their lives - not so with children, who don't have the emotional development to deal with it - translation: be prepared to keep them up in the style of their neighborhood and school peers..and our culture continues to stoke the fire - replacing electronic devices every 12 months or less, as one example....even if you are a frugal adult, don't try to fight this - you can limit it, but you can't eliminate it - or perhaps you can if live off the grid in a rural area and homeschool.

(2) Somehow between my generation and my daughters, the tide turned and now parents are expected to foot the entire bill for all advanced education....again, you can fight this, but the tide is rising against you.

(3) At least one trip to Disneyword during their childhood - has become a rite of passage. (not to mention obligatory beach and amusement park vacations.)

I actually enjoyed much of this, but was only able to handle it because our family was in the upper household income range.

BFG
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by stoptothink »

3CT_Paddler wrote:
livesoft wrote:I find kids that are not expensive, unless you make them expensive.
I partially agree. I do think well off parents are going to spend lots of their income on kids in the form of private schools, camps, clothes, college and in general are going to live in an expensive area where those extra rooms will cost a premium. When they add up all those extra "costs" it looks like kids are crazy expensive, when its more of a consumption choice.

But there is certainly a cost for your average middle income family in the form of daycare or loss of one spouses earnings, and other smaller expenses add up in the form of diapers, food, etc.
I do as well, but as a new father (new stepfather to a 2yr old) the baseline cost for children is definitely significant. Just the absolute necessities: childcare (my wife also works full-time), health insurance, diaper/wipes, and food will cost us at absolute minimum $9k this year. I do know families who spend that annually on sports or music training for each child, but I am talking absolute necessities. $9k/yr is a lot of money to me.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by scrabbler1 »

HomerJ wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:
climber2020 wrote:
bottlecap wrote:Asking this question of people who didn't have kids is not go to yield any useful information. They a) didn't have kids so they don't know if there's anything to regret and b) are human, so they are hardwired to believe their choice was the correct one unless reality slaps them in the face hard.
True, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a person without that experience cannot reasonably deduce what the experience might be like.

I have never and never intend to eat dog poo, but I have been around enough of it in my life to infer that it would be an unpleasant experience.
Good point (about the dog poo).

We childfree people know exactly what we are missing by not having kids. That is exactly why we choose not to have them. Any list of things is easily dismissed by us childfree people because all the items fall into one or both of the following categories:

(1) What they describe as positive things we childfree see as purely negative or at best having zero positive value.

(2) Even if we childfree see them as positive, we can get them from other places which do not have any negatives attached to them.

Instead, we childfree see our lifestyle choice as having only positive traits. For me, being childfree enabled me to retire at the age of 45, something which would have been impossible if I had kids. And what do I do with my economic freedom? I can do more volunteer work with several area schools.

We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience. We see having less money, the loss of peace and quiet, the loss of personal freedom, and the addition of stinky diapers in our lives (for example) if we had kids. That is what we are missing when we chose not to have kids.

The OP knows that the many parents in this forum are generally quite happy with their choices. What the OP wants to know if those of us who chose not to become parents are similarly happy in this pro-natalist world. That answer is YES.
I 100% support your decision, but I find your arguments very unconvincing when you say things like "We childfree see having kids as a purely negative experience."

I can certainly understand where you weigh the positives and the negatives, and make a choice different from me. But to say that having kids adds NOTHING to the positive column tells me that no, you do NOT "know exactly what you are missing by not having kids"
Well, from my years on childfree forums and blogs, when this issue arises from time to time, nobody has ever said anything positive about having kids. (And I am a moderate in those forums, not an extremist.) Many of the posters there, including me, derive some positives from being around some kids some of the time. Many are aunts or uncles (I am an uncle), some work in professions with kids and who like their jobs. Others like me do some volunteer work. But nobody, and I mean nobody, has ever expressed anything positive about having their own kids. We DO know what we are missing which is why we want no part of it.
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Re: Thoughts on having kids?

Post by VictoriaF »

Barefootgirl wrote:(3) At least one trip to Disneyword during their childhood - has become a rite of passage. (not to mention obligatory beach and amusement park vacations.)

BFG
An excuse to go to Disney is a benefit of having children.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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