Car dealer refusing to repair car

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climber2020
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Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

Hi everyone. I'm posting the question on behalf of my girlfriend hoping to get some advice on how to proceed.

3-4 months ago, my girlfriend's car (a 2010 compact) began losing radiator fluid. She took it in to the dealer; they couldn't find anything, topped off the fluid, and sent her out. Same problem kept happening, so she went back 2 weeks later. They still weren't 100% sure what the problem was, so they replaced the entire radiator at no cost to my girlfriend (it was somehow covered under some warranty since the car is only 3 years old).

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. Radiator fluid is still very slowly leaking from somewhere, as the fluid level in the reservoir keeps gradually dropping. She takes the car back to the dealer. They keep it for several days to observe and inspect. They find nothing and send her out.

Frustrated, my girlfriend this week takes the car to her local mechanic for a second opinion, who within an hour diagnoses the problem: failing head gasket. The local mechanic (who casually mentions that he does not have a very high opinion of the service department at this particular dealership) communicates this information back to the dealership, and the dealership is baffled by the diagnosis and skeptical that that is the actual problem. The dealer refuses to fix the head gasket, telling my girlfriend to drive the car "until the head gasket fails completely. Then it will be fully covered under factory warranty." My girlfriend and I both agree that this is an unacceptable solution, given the danger involved if this event occurs while doing 75 mph on the interstate.

Here are our options:

1. Take the car to a different dealership 20 miles away and hope they honor the factory warranty.

2. Have the local mechanic fix the car and pay for it out of pocket. If the radiator leak problem is solved, collect billing documentation and take the dealership owner to small claims court to get the money back. Prior to litigation, I would likely file a complaint with both the local better business bureau and also the FTC to see if that resolves the problem.

If there are any Boglehead mechanics or car gurus reading this, what are your thoughts? And is the dealership's advice on "driving the car until the head gasket fails" a standard recommendation?

Many thanks :beer
livesoft
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by livesoft »

Let's turn this around for a moment.

Suppose you took the car first to the non-dealer mechanic who told you that the radiator fluid was going down because of a failing head gasket. Would you have believed them? Or would you have gone out for a 2nd opinion?

It might be time for a 3rd opinion. Maybe call up the Magliozzi brothers?
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newbie_Mo
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by newbie_Mo »

Did your gf notice any smoke (white, black, or blue) from the tail pipe when she drives (Especially after a traffic stop and step hard on the gas peddle)? If there are a large amount of smoke, yes, the head gasket could be a problem. I am no mechanic, but I fix some of my car problems. If you really have to replace the head gasket, try to see if you can buy one from Ebay and pay for the labor. That will save you a lot of money.
YttriumNitrate
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by YttriumNitrate »

I'm not a pro car repair guy, but it seems like it's pretty easy to test if your head gasket is blown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA7KVQq9vKA

You can pick up one of these kits for about $25 at AutoZone.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/access ... 91378_0_0_
carolinaman
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by carolinaman »

I would complain to the car manufacturer. If you are in a metro area they will likely have a district office there or at the closestmetro area. I have known people who got good results that way and I also knew a guy in such a district office who interceded for unhappy customers all the time. It is worth a try. You are correct that waiting until it becomes a bigger problem is totally unacceptable.
livesoft
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by livesoft »

If the car is under warranty, then the car is under warranty. If the warranty covers a head gasket, then the owner should not have to pay for the repair nor the diagnosis.

I think the problem here is getting the proper diagnosis repaired under warranty. That means the place doing warranty repairs has to basically agree to the problem and fix it.

A conversation might go like this:

Owner: Do you agree that the fluid level in the cooling system is going away somehow? So I have had this problem diagnosed elsewhere and they tell me the head gasket is failing. Can that make the fluid level drop like we are seeing? You don't think that makes sense? Well then, can you do a test to find out if the head gasket is failing for me? Can you suggest another dealership that will find out for me or do I need to go above the dealership level to find this out?
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newbie_Mo
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by newbie_Mo »

Great video from Scott Kilmer. I watch his video for some of my repair jobs too.
YttriumNitrate wrote:I'm not a pro car repair guy, but it seems like it's pretty easy to test if your head gasket is blown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA7KVQq9vKA

You can pick up one of these kits for about $25 at AutoZone.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/access ... 91378_0_0_
johnubc
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by johnubc »

If the car is under warranty get the manufacturer involved. They will want the car fixed. As for the diagnosis - your local mechanic could be correct it all depends on how he diagnosed the problem. Or it could be just a hunch.
tibbitts
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by tibbitts »

I would call the dealer 20mi away and explain the situation and ask if they're willing to test the head gasket. You're lucky there's another dealer only 20mi away.

My experience dealing with the manufacturer regarding warranty disputes: "the dealer is an independent business and we have no control over their decisions." In other words, when it's to the manufacturer's advantage for the dealer to be an independent business, it is. When it's to the manufacturer's advantage for the dealer not to be an independent business (such as if the dealer needs to be told exactly how to display the correct promotional material specified by the manufacturer), it isn't.

Personally based on my multiple experiences I wouldn't bother contacting the manufacturer, I'd try the BBB next. I've had some positive results with that. But I'm sure others have had better experience with manufacturers.

It won't matter if you can "prove" to your own satisfaction that the head gasket is leaking. You already have an independent mechanic diagnosis. You've pretty well established that no amount of proof - short of the car actually not running - will be sufficient for the first dealer. Leaking head gaskets are pretty common and there are known ways to diagnose them, particularly when the volume of the leak is substantial, as it appears to be in this case.

Paul
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by The Wizard »

newbie_Mo wrote:Did your gf notice any smoke (white, black, or blue) from the tail pipe when she drives (Especially after a traffic stop and step hard on the gas peddle)? If there are a large amount of smoke, yes, the head gasket could be a problem. I am no mechanic, but I fix some of my car problems. If you really have to replace the head gasket, try to see if you can buy one from Ebay and pay for the labor. That will save you a lot of money.
Head gasket failure will be WHITE "smoke" which is really steam from the mostly water fluid leaking into the cylinder(s)...
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tibbitts
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by tibbitts »

johnubc wrote:If the car is under warranty get the manufacturer involved. They will want the car fixed. As for the diagnosis - your local mechanic could be correct it all depends on how he diagnosed the problem. Or it could be just a hunch.
They'll want the car fixed, but my experience is that they won't get involved in disputing their own dealer's diagnosis - which apparently is that the car isn't actually leaking, or isn't leaking to an unacceptable degree. It would help for your own benefit and degree-of-confidence to know how the local mechanic diagnosed the problem, however - that's a good point.

One problem with taking the car to another dealer is that they'll already have the previous non-diagnosis available to them, which is why I suggested seeing how receptive they were to re-evaluating the situation before wasting time/money driving over there. It's possible that it's just another outlet of the same dealership, which might or might not influence whether they'd get involved.

Paul
bigspender
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by bigspender »

What kind of car.

The other possibility is a defective water pump. Had that on a fairly new car in my life. You should check out a forum on the internet on your car and so what people have to say.
nordlead
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by nordlead »

haha, haven't read everything, but I could have told you day 1 that if you can't find anything leaking under the car it is a head gasket and it is going in the engine, which totally sucks. The reality is there 2 places the coolant can go. On the floor, or in the air. If you aren't getting any drips on the floor than that means either a) it is going in the engine, b) the leak is so slow it has a chance to evaporate. If you are loosing as much fluid as it sounds, the answer will be a).

Anyways, if you drive the car until the head gasket completely fails (already has in my book), then what you are really doing is driving the car until you totally destroy the engine. The dealer is hoping that it lasts long enough that they don't have to cover it under warranty, because it will be significantly more expensive to repair after significant damage is done.
Last edited by nordlead on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wizard
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by The Wizard »

nordlead wrote:haha, haven't read everything, but I could have told you day 1 that if you can't find anything leaking under the car it is a head gasket and it is going in the engine, which totally sucks.

Anyways, if you drive the car until the head gasket completely fails (already has in my book), then what you are really doing is driving the car until you totally destroy the engine. The dealer is hoping that it lasts long enough that they don't have to cover it under warranty, because it will be significantly more expensive to repair after significant damage is done.
I tend to agree with this; other leaks will leave a puddle in your parking spot.
And as the gasket leak gets worse and "blows", the engine will likely "seize" which could be really exciting...
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Some posters already said it - call the manufacturer's consumer affairs dept, stop wasting time trying to do a self-diagnosis. Tell the manufacturer you got a second independent opinion that said "head gasket failure is an impending event and that xyz dealership is not being cooperative, go on to say I thought when i purchased the car abc manufacturer was a company that stands behind its product. Your dealers action or lack of action confirms otherwise". Stand back see what happens when they call the dealer.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Spirit Rider »

climber2020 wrote:The dealer refuses to fix the head gasket, telling my girlfriend to drive the car "until the head gasket fails completely. Then it will be fully covered under factory warranty." My girlfriend and I both agree that this is an unacceptable solution, given the danger involved if this event occurs while doing 75 mph on the interstate.
I wouldn't just be concerned about a catastrophic failure. I would be concerned about harm being done to the engine on a regular basis.

Depending where the leak is in a head gasket, it can cause coolant to bypass into the oil system. This can emulsification of the oil greatly reducing its lubrication capability. This can do significant damage to the engine short of a catastrophic failure. If you drive this for any significant time, even if/when the head gasket is ultimately replaced, significant wear/damage to the engine could have occurred.

Not only should it be determined if the head gasket is failing, but the engine should get a detailed internal inspection if it has. This would involve detailed inspection when the head is removed, removal of the oil pan and inspection from below. This type of wear/damage may not show up until the warranty has expired. You will want to establish the wear/damage has occurred and get an extended warranty on the engine or replacement if bad enough.
whomever
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by whomever »

Disclaimer: Shade tree mechanic only, so some of this is hearsay, e.g I don't have an exhaust sniffer.

A failing head gasket can manifest itself in more than one way:

-coolant can leak into the combustion chamber and end up going out the exhaust. I think there are electronic exhaust 'sniffers' that can detect the coolant in the exhaust with a good deal of specificity. If a mechanic used one of those, I'd think the diagnosis would be very reliable.
-combustion gases can leak into the coolant, causing the coolant to boil off or overflow the reservoir. When this happened to me, you could see foam in the reservoir right after a long highway drive, if you checked right after stopping. I think there are also sniffers that will look for trace combustion gases in the coolant.
-coolant can leak into the oil, raising the oil level and turning it milky.

When I had my problem, I got one of the 'pressurize the coolant system and look for leaks into the cylinder' gadgets and it didn't reveal any problems, even though the gasket was failing; perhaps they only work for gross failures??

As others have said, you want to find out what the problem is - a failing head gasket can lead to a completely trashed motor. It probably won't be the kind of failure that presents an imminent hazard, though, like say a wheel bearing failure would; it's not a 'what if it happens going 70' kind of thing.

IIUC, one problem with failing gaskets is that they can lead to localized heating and thus block or head warpage or cracking (or conversely, a warped or cracked block or head can lead to gasket failure). In any event, if you have it replaced they need to carefully inspect the head and block for warpage or cracks, because if present those will lead to another gasket failure before too long.
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JupiterJones
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by JupiterJones »

I do think that you should get another dealer to take a look at it, or continue to press the issue with the current dealer.

But... What kind of car is it? How many miles? Seems pretty odd for a car that new to have head gasket problems, especially if it's a solid brand like Honda or Toyota.

So, while I don't approve of the way your current dealer is handling the situation, I do share their skepticism.
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Keep It Simple
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Keep It Simple »

I suggest utilizing every outlet you have in order to get this done asap. This would include going to the other dealership right away and see if they will resolve this immediately. If that does not work, file a complaint with the BBB, contact the manufacturer and let them know that you are documenting everything and that you simply will not wait for something catastrophic to happen(possibly while you have family including children in the car).

The more noise you make the more likely they will be to get something done. I think it is ridiculous you should have to go through this for them to fix their mistake.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

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mike143
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by mike143 »

You need to tell us what make and model the car is.

We had a engine replaced under warranty by Honda. They had an issue with the short block cracking on the 06+ 1.8L Civics. It exhibit the same issue, missing coolant. It was ingesting it slow enough it would burn it off before mixing with the oil and showing on the oil cap. When it got worse it did start mixing with the oil. I had to prove to the dealership that this was happening by putting UV dye in the coolant and showing the UV milk shake that formed under the oil cap. Short block was replaced for $0 out of our pocket.
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climber2020
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

OP here. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

It is a 2010 Nissan Versa hatchback. A little over 50,000 miles on it.

No puddles under the car, and it is an extremely slow leak, but a leak nonetheless. Girlfriend has been taking photos every few days of the fluid level gradually dropping.

No smoke emanating from anywhere. Other than the radiator fluid disappearing, the car drives fine otherwise.

I know nothing about cars, so please bear with me on this as this information has passed through 2 prior messengers. The local mechanic (non-dealer) was able to determine this due to some sort of abnormal condensation under some cap, as well as the oil level being higher than average. He seemed pretty certain of his diagnosis, and girlfriend has had good, reliable results from this mechanic for many years prior to her getting her current car.

I will contact Nissan's consumer affairs dept first and report back here with what they say.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by frugaltype »

I have no advice, but I can tell you my experience.

When my Mustang was new, it would randomly go into neutral. As someone above noted, this was "exciting" if I was driving up a hill. I took it a few times to a local dealer, and they kept saying they couldn't find a problem. I am pretty sure they didn't even move it from the parking space I left it in one time. So my Dad took it to a dealer where a friend of his worked, and they found the problem, which was some sort of seal failure having to do with the transmission.

So I don't know if you have any recourse except to find an honest dealer. Word of mouth may help you with that.

Now that I think about it, a registered letter to the CEO, expressing your concern about dangerous aspects of this may get their attention. I would cc it obviously to various places, the NHTSA and so forth.
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climber2020
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

frugaltype wrote:I have no advice, but I can tell you my experience.

When my Mustang was new, it would randomly go into neutral. As someone above noted, this was "exciting" if I was driving up a hill. I took it a few times to a local dealer, and they kept saying they couldn't find a problem. I am pretty sure they didn't even move it from the parking space I left it in one time. So my Dad took it to a dealer where a friend of his worked, and they found the problem, which was some sort of seal failure having to do with the transmission.

So I don't know if you have any recourse except to find an honest dealer. Word of mouth may help you with that.
Thank you for your story. There is another Nissan dealership 20 miles south which girlfriend's independent mechanic says has a much better service department than the one she has been using. We may try that route.

I spoke with consumer affairs just now. Since I am not the owner of the car, they couldn't give me any specific advice, but they were able to tell me how the process works and what information is needed to open a case. We'll get that rolling later today, and I'll update as things progress.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by MnD »

With oil and radiator fluid mixing (probably both ways) it will ruin the engine, radiator and catalytic converter which could easily "total" the car.
It would appear that head gaskets are still covered under the 5-year, 60,000 mile powertrain warranty even though the full warranty has lapsed.
https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... ntyContent
So specifically they are hoping you'll go over 60K miles and probably have a totaled vehicle and no recourse instead of them fixing the head gaskets under warranty.
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mike143
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by mike143 »

Go to the part store and put some UV dye (for coolant) in the coolant.
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telemark
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by telemark »

Definitely check with the other dealership. Did the mechanic quote you a price to replace the gasket? I had this done on a Volkswagen Jetta once, and it cost $800. Most of that was labor, because they had to take the engine apart and put it back together again. Maybe a Nissan would be different, I don't know.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Gnirk »

When we have had issues with cars that have not been resolved to our satisfaction, we write the president of the company. Always, the dealer has been contacted, and they have taken care of the problem. (cars have been under warranty at the time).
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by mbres60 »

JupiterJones wrote:I do think that you should get another dealer to take a look at it, or continue to press the issue with the current dealer.

But... What kind of car is it? How many miles? Seems pretty odd for a car that new to have head gasket problems, especially if it's a solid brand like Honda or Toyota.

So, while I don't approve of the way your current dealer is handling the situation, I do share their skepticism.
Unfortunately you are incorrect. We bought our dd a 1998 Honda Civic while she was in college. The day before she was to drive home for spring break her car overheated. She had 1,500 miles on it. Luckily some parent who was nearby picking up their child took a look and put some water in because the radiator was empty. Also lucky that there was a Honda dealer in town. She went the next day. Head gasket blown. Because it was a new car they didn't have the parts they needed. They said this happens on old cars. They needed a full week to fix the car as they had wait on the parts. She was too young for them to give her a loaner so we had to go pick her up. They would not give us the extended warranty that we did not purchase (didn't buy the car from them either). I called the regional office and had no problem getting the extended warranty which was IIRC for 7 years or 75000. Luckily we only needed to use it once ... for a broken cup holder :) . She traded the car in for various reasons when she had more than 160000 miles on it.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by nordlead »

JupiterJones wrote:I do think that you should get another dealer to take a look at it, or continue to press the issue with the current dealer.

But... What kind of car is it? How many miles? Seems pretty odd for a car that new to have head gasket problems, especially if it's a solid brand like Honda or Toyota.

So, while I don't approve of the way your current dealer is handling the situation, I do share their skepticism.
Just because it is a Honda or Toyata doesn't mean they didn't put out a stinker of a car. On top of that certain models have been known to have major problems (after the fact of course, but I buy exclusively used so I search for that kind of information). I've avoided certain Honda models because of head gasket problems. Heck, I have a subaru forester and a year older then what I have and you'd have a known head gasket problem that they corrected for my year model.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by derosa »

Yes you can lose coolant and not see a puddle and it is NOT the head gasket.

Just had a coolant leak that was not resulting in a puddle on the garage floor. Level was down in the overflow chamber - fill it up and it would go down. At first it took many days. Happened for about a month. Finally it was empty one day after I filled it up.

After much looking and using a flashlight I Finally found that water was leaking out of a hose onto the block / transmission between the block and the fire wall. There was a very small hole in one heater hose. the hose was failing / rotting from the inside out. The coolant was collecting in a small depression area on TOP of the block / transmission so that it wasn't dripping on the floor. The heat was evaporating it as well.

Time to go to my mechanic for a new hose. Honda Accord FWIIW.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by tibbitts »

telemark wrote:Definitely check with the other dealership. Did the mechanic quote you a price to replace the gasket? I had this done on a Volkswagen Jetta once, and it cost $800. Most of that was labor, because they had to take the engine apart and put it back together again. Maybe a Nissan would be different, I don't know.
Replacing a head gasket pretty much is the definition of taking the engine apart and putting it back together - or at least about half of it. The parts are never that expensive, although sometimes it makes sense to replace additional parts as long as enough of the engine has to come apart to get the head(s) off.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (car repair).
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by dratkinson »

mike143 wrote:Go to the part store and put some UV dye (for coolant) in the coolant.
Thought of this too to find an external leak. Will need UV light to see UV stain left behind on the engine block.

Don't know how well it would work finding an internal leak. If enough got into engine oil, suppose it could be seen under UV light; but would expect water-emulsified engine oil (frothy white) to be more detectable. As for a leak into a cylinder, would expect nothing to be visible. Maybe by process of elimination: water is going somewhere but (1) no visible UV stain evidence of external leak, (2) no visible evidence of leaking into crankcase---UV stain or frothy oil, (3) so that leaves the cylinders.... (I could be overlooking something.)
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simpsonlang
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by simpsonlang »

I drive a bus for a church that leaks radiator fluid past the head gasket. It doesn't leak into the oil but comes out the side of the head. Leaves a nice cloud after we stop for a few minutes to pick people up. It's likely you have a similar situation but it's a very slow leak. Ours requires us to add water every 2 weeks. The engine runs fine though I'm sure after putting water in eventually the cooling passages will corrode. But the bus is very old, has a massive battery drain which we fix when the engine is off by using a heavy cutoff switch at the battery so if the engine goes out not a big deal.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Saving$ »

1. The dealer is hoping you get tired of this and go away, and that the problem does not happen until after the car is out of warranty. This car has a 3 year/36k mi basic warranty and 5 year/60k drivetrain warranty. Whichever this is covered under, it is getting close to running out.

2. Even though you have brought it to the dealer several time MAKE SURE THE PAPERWORK CLEARLY STATES why you have brought it in. Make sure the paperwork states you asked them to check the head gasket also. They will write anything on the paperwork except what the problem is. That is so they can see this was not a problem while the car was in warranty, so they don't have to cover it if it happens after the warranty expires.

Document, document, document, and get some documentation from the dealer.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

Saving$ wrote:1. The dealer is hoping you get tired of this and go away, and that the problem does not happen until after the car is out of warranty. This car has a 3 year/36k mi basic warranty and 5 year/60k drivetrain warranty. Whichever this is covered under, it is getting close to running out.

2. Even though you have brought it to the dealer several time MAKE SURE THE PAPERWORK CLEARLY STATES why you have brought it in. Make sure the paperwork states you asked them to check the head gasket also. They will write anything on the paperwork except what the problem is. That is so they can see this was not a problem while the car was in warranty, so they don't have to cover it if it happens after the warranty expires.

Document, document, document, and get some documentation from the dealer.
Thanks for the advice. I relayed this message to my girlfriend to make sure the head gasket inspection is specifically documented.

Quick update: consumer affairs was contacted yesterday afternoon, and they were appalled by the sequence of events that occurred. A regional advisor from Nissan is supposed to call sometime today to discuss things further.
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Watty »

You have a valid problem in that they have not been able to resolve losing the fluid which may or may not be a gasket problem. It would be best to focus the leak since that is a clear problem

In your warrantee paperwork there will be instructions on how to escalate an unresolved problem.

You should find that and follow that exactly documenting the steps even if they seem like a formality or someone tells you that you don’t need to do something.

One time I had a series of ongoing different problems with a Nissan that I had bought new and the car was getting near the end of the full warrantee. I escalated it up through the warrantee escalation process and when it got to the regional person he agreed that the problems were excessive and we agreed that them providing an extended warrantee on the car was reasonable and that would give us time to see if the problems settled down.

You also need to look up the current lemon laws and if you are getting close to qualifying for that then be sure to press the issue. When looking at having a car returned under a lemon law car dealers tend to become very willing to work with you to get the problems resolved with the car being returned.
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mrpotatoheadsays
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by mrpotatoheadsays »

My car's internal fan was making some kind of clicking noise. I took it to the dealer to fix it; they said they did; I paid them. Despite this, I kept hearing this clicking noise. So one Saturday, I removed four easily accessible small screws so I could examine the fan. Hanging-off one of the blades was a loose small strip of black electrical tape; this was the obvious source of the clicking noise.

Lesson learned.

I could tell you more stories.

The automotive industry is full of dirtbags and warrantees are just another scam. You are on your own. If you can't determine the problem or fix it, expect to piss your money away at several mechanics. After a few attempts, you may consider to just live with the problem until you replace the car.

Litigation is just a big waste of your time and effort. You would be better off getting a second job and putting the money toward a replacement car.

Don't do business with this company again. I for one, will never have anything to do with General Motors.
eharri3
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by eharri3 »

The dealership's suggestion to drive the car until the head gasket blows was absolutely flat out unacceptable. They probably felt they could get away with telling her that because they were dealing with a female who would leave without questioning it. I can tell you if it was me there was a problem with my in-warranty vehicle that they were failing to find and fix appropriately and someone suggested I should just drive the car until there was a catastrophic engine failure, me and the manager would have had it out in the middle of the service department. I would not have left until I had a commitment to find the problem and fix it for good. I have had to fight with dealerships over this sort of thing before. Once had a dealer do 2000 dollars in steering and suspension work on a truck to fix a problem that came back within 24 hours of me picking it up. I went back and made them look at it again, at which point they tracked it to another problem that was a 600 dollar fix. They offered to do the repair for parts only since they had just worked on the truck. I said that wasn't good enough. Considering they just did over 2K in work that did not fix the problem, and we would never really know for sure whether the stuff they replaced even needed fixing, they needed to fix it again without charging me a dime. And they should consider themselves lucky I had no intention of fighting for my 2K back because I didn't have solid proof that the parts they just replaced were fine. After about an hour standing my ground against a manager so furious he looked like he was ready to pop a blood vessel, they put my truck back on the lift and did the final fix for free.


Dealership service departments do not like warranty work because the manufacturer often uses a very low estimate of the number of man hours that should be involved in the repair when calculating the reimbursement rate. This often causes that sort of work to become a money-looser for the dealership. Whereas when the car is out of warranty and the customer pays they can charge for how long it really takes, or LONGER than it really takes, and make better money. Your girlfriend's dealership was probably tired of dealing with it and just wants her to go away.


At this point I would not hesitate to drive the 20 extra miles if I felt I'd get better service. But on her service order for all future dealership visits it is an absolute must to make them document that the customer has had two previous dealership attempts to fix the problem that were unsuccessful, that there was already a radiator replacement, and she is specifically asking for diagnosis of a head gasket issue. She has to build a paper history because her next step will be to contact the manufacturer, who will not FORCE the dealership to do anything they don't want to do, but who can act as an intermediary for her in further discussions. Then if that doesn't work, she needs an attorney.
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climber2020
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

Update on the car situation:

We contacted Nissan Consumer Affairs. They are sending over one of their engineers to the local dealership to assess the car and repair as needed. In the meantime, girlfriend has a loaner car from the dealership free of charge until her car is completely fixed. The dealership people have been acting a lot more hospitable since we got consumer affairs involved.

Big thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I'll post another update when we figure out what was causing the radiator fluid to drop.
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runner9
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by runner9 »

Thanks for the update and glad things are improving. Looking forward to hearing the answer.
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Dutch
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by Dutch »

[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
likegarden
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by likegarden »

Good idea to get finally to a regional person. That dealer obviously does not know how to diagnose this problem.
I once had a car which occasionally knocked loudly going up hills around 35 mph. My dealer was small and the service department did not know how to find the problem. Finally I got to a regional office of the manufacturer who had a guy who immediately knew that a switch used by the automatic transmission was not working correctly intermittently. OP should let the regional people of the manufacturer handle that and get extended warranty.
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ejvyas
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by ejvyas »

Do 1 + complain to car manufacturer + write reviews about the bad dealer service everywhere online + BBB

PS: car manufacturers usually dont care about consumer complaints until some the accident rate is really high and then they will issue recalls/fixes. If you are safe it does not count as an issue!

Don't sweat the small stuff - all dealers know how to get out of warranties. Hence I dont care about warranties anymore
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NateH
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by NateH »

The Wizard wrote:
newbie_Mo wrote:Did your gf notice any smoke (white, black, or blue) from the tail pipe when she drives (Especially after a traffic stop and step hard on the gas peddle)? If there are a large amount of smoke, yes, the head gasket could be a problem. I am no mechanic, but I fix some of my car problems. If you really have to replace the head gasket, try to see if you can buy one from Ebay and pay for the labor. That will save you a lot of money.
Head gasket failure will be WHITE "smoke" which is really steam from the mostly water fluid leaking into the cylinder(s)...
you might also be able to see oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil.
4X top-twenty S&P 500 prognosticator. I'd start a newsletter, but it would only have one issue per year. | dumb investor during 1999 tech bubble, current slice & dicer.
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climber2020
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by climber2020 »

Another (and hopefully final) update:

The engineer from Nissan visited the dealership earlier today, looked at the car, and figured out the problem. My girlfriend couldn't relay to me exactly what was wrong with the car, but they have decided to replace the entire engine. The car should be good to go by the middle of next week. In the meantime, she keeps the loaner car from the dealership at no cost to her.

Thanks again to everyone for the helpful suggestions! :beer
Last edited by climber2020 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
harrychan
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by harrychan »

Good news! I also had good luck with Nissan after putting together a well drafted note to Nissan HQ consumer affairs. Only different is that my 2003 Nissan Altima was some 2000 miles away from the warranty expiration. They gave me rebuilt engine as well. This was about 5 years ago.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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beyou
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by beyou »

I had a similar experience/response years ago, in that the dealer said I should keep driving my Ford Mustang
until the steering pump died completely. It was leaking fluid but they would not cover the minor issue
of a leaking hose. Would only cover if the pump fails (and only then replace the hose at the same time).

Just reinforces my belief you should never pay for extended warranties or certified pre-owned
(CPO in my case). Paying out of pocket can not only be cheaper, but more flexible.
protagonist
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by protagonist »

livesoft wrote: It might be time for a 3rd opinion. Maybe call up the Magliozzi brothers?
You have to be really cool to make the cut. I tried twice and failed the audition, and one time my car had a really funny problem,,,,I thought for sure I'd get the gig (especially because I used to frequent their garage in Cambridge in the 70s when it was a do-it-yourself hippie scene and you paid hourly for use of a bay). I think it's harder to get on their show than to get a part in a Spielberg movie.

( In fact, the do-it-yourself garage was called "Hacker's Haven"...you paid a few bucks an hour and they provided free personal advice as well as all the manuals and tools. I wonder, in retrospect, if they were the first ones to coin the term "hacker".)
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frugalhen
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Re: Car dealer refusing to repair car

Post by frugalhen »

Seems like you have two separate problems: the correct diagnosis and the warranty. As long as there is confusion as to the diagnostics one cannot know what to do. Whether dealer or local, this depends entirely on the technician.

I would take it to another dealer, explain you have a leak and request their foreman diagnose the problem. At that point if necessary ask who the regional service manager is for the manufacturer regarding coverage.

Your local mechanic may well be correct, but to be covered u der warranty this will likely need to be remedied through a dealer.


P.s. there are dyes to find leaks this should not be that difficult. You could also change engine oil, take a sample, send it to blackstome labs and in two days know if it is leaking into engine oil. All for $25
"get out and live, you are dead an awfully long time" - Jimmy Demaret
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