Car trade/fix opinion...

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n171n
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Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by n171n »

Hi all, could use your opinion on what to do here

I've got a 2001 BMW 740i with 165k miles. Trade in is $3500... the car is obviously worth more to me than anyone else! :moneybag

I haven't put any money into this in ~2 years. But now it is in the shop with approx 3k in repairs.

1. Bad battery and/or alternator
2. Right front strut is making noise and so both probably struts, joints, and bearings need to be replaced
3. Various misc non mechanical / cosmetic type issues

Most of my driving is highway (daily ~40 miles round trip to work)

Thoughts on whether i should sell and buy something else or put in the money and take it to 200k miles? :?

thanks!
livesoft
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by livesoft »

Sounds like you just need a new $50 battery. I wouldn't worry about a noisy strut. We had a Camry with a "noisy strut" for 5 or 6 years until it was traded in with over 200K miles on it.
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jeffyscott
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by jeffyscott »

n171n wrote:I've got a 2001 BMW 740i with 165k miles. Trade in is $3500... the car is obviously worth more to me than anyone else! :moneybag
If you put the $3K into it will it still be worth $3500? If so, would you pay $6500 for a nearly 13 year old car with 165,000 miles on it? I wouldn't, but it may be different for fans of pricier cars like BMW.
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tylerdurden
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by tylerdurden »

livesoft wrote:Sounds like you just need a new $50 battery. I wouldn't worry about a noisy strut. We had a Camry with a "noisy strut" for 5 or 6 years until it was traded in with over 200K miles on it.
Agreed. Unless there is an actual issue, I wouldn't spend the money to do suspension work at this point. Change the necessary item(s) and drive it for another year or two.
"The things you own end up owning you." -TD
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by TheOscarGuy »

n171n wrote:Hi all, could use your opinion on what to do here

I've got a 2001 BMW 740i with 165k miles. Trade in is $3500... the car is obviously worth more to me than anyone else! :moneybag

I haven't put any money into this in ~2 years. But now it is in the shop with approx 3k in repairs.

1. Bad battery and/or alternator
2. Right front strut is making noise and so both probably struts, joints, and bearings need to be replaced
3. Various misc non mechanical / cosmetic type issues

Most of my driving is highway (daily ~40 miles round trip to work)

Thoughts on whether i should sell and buy something else or put in the money and take it to 200k miles? :?

thanks!
Fix it. I think the car is new enough that you need not get ride of it. As it is, you aren't getting too much money out of it -- is the 3.5K offer with a repaired car, or as it is?

Take it till 200K and then re-think.
Keep It Simple
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Keep It Simple »

You are the owner and driver of one of the most unreliable cars on the road today. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't put anything into it lately and get rid of the car. Most likely you will get it repaired and find something else goes wrong a few months later. If you are looking to save money in the long run, I would run away from a 100,000 plus mile 7 series BMW.

It's a shame too...I actually like the look of that car.

Good luck!

K.I.S.
aude
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by aude »

Keep in mind that these cars, like a lot of BMWs, especially the V8 models, have a lot of cooling system problems due to brittle plastic parts. If not replaced previously at 100,000 miles, you are overdue for preventative replacement of radiator, coolant expansion tank, water pump, engine-driven fan clutch, fan, belt tensioners, etc. Any of these items can leave you stranded somewhere, so you should seriously consider biting the bullet and taking care of them if you're going to keep the car long-term. If you DIY, this can be done for $800 or so in parts. Mechanics will charge more of course. If you do not, then at least be sure to turn off the engine the instant that it overheats.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by TheOscarGuy »

Is your comment directed towards the 7-series (which I don't own) or BMW in general?
I/we drive X5, and I have found it to be *slightly* lesser reliable than a Japanese brand, but nowhere "the most unreliable cars" on the road. They do not break as often, they do not need maintenance as often. Granted, when they do, you will pay dearly but if you keep up with the normal maintenance, you will have a decent, generally reliable car.
Keep It Simple wrote:You are the owner and driver of one of the most unreliable cars on the road today. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't put anything into it lately and get rid of the car. Most likely you will get it repaired and find something else goes wrong a few months later. If you are looking to save money in the long run, I would run away from a 100,000 plus mile 7 series BMW.

It's a shame too...I actually like the look of that car.

Good luck!

K.I.S.
Keep It Simple
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Keep It Simple »

TheOscarGuy wrote:Is your comment directed towards the 7-series (which I don't own) or BMW in general?
I/we drive X5, and I have found it to be *slightly* lesser reliable than a Japanese brand, but nowhere "the most unreliable cars" on the road. They do not break as often, they do not need maintenance as often. Granted, when they do, you will pay dearly but if you keep up with the normal maintenance, you will have a decent, generally reliable car.
Yes, my comment was directed towards the 7 series in particular as this post discusses that model. The data on BMW vehicles overall though does not seem to back up your comments above that they are "slightly" less reliable than Honda or Toyota(Japanese brands). Far from it actually.

Please don't get me wrong here. To each his own. I can certainly understand that there are people out there that value the driving experience of a BMW and therefore make the decision to pay more for the vehicle up front and on maintenance and more frequent/costly than normal repairs. .

I do not mean this to sound degrading at all, but rather just to make the point that BMW owners are not buying their car because it is cheap to purchase/maintain or because of high reliability.

Many people point to Consumer Reports when attempting to prove that BMW is reliable, however the data you are seeing is coming from BMW owners who...tend to be very loyal and overlook the reliability issues of the car and instead focus on the superior handling, feel, etc.

K.I.S.
emoore
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by emoore »

Keep It Simple wrote:
Many people point to Consumer Reports when attempting to prove that BMW is reliable, however the data you are seeing is coming from BMW owners who...tend to be very loyal and overlook the reliability issues of the car and instead focus on the superior handling, feel, etc.

K.I.S.
But how do you know that other car brands don't have the same loyalty issue? There are a lot of people that will only buy Ford or Chevy or Honda. Aren't those owners loyal to their brands and might overlook reliability issues? I'm not saying BMWs are the most reliable car out there but most cars these days are much much more reliable than cars 15, 20, or 30 years ago.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by TheOscarGuy »

Keep It Simple wrote: Many people point to Consumer Reports when attempting to prove that BMW is reliable, however the data you are seeing is coming from BMW owners who...tend to be very loyal and overlook the reliability issues of the car and instead focus on the superior handling, feel, etc.

K.I.S.
I was just pointing to my own experiences, I had no intentions of pointing to the CR. It has been my experience that, while costly to repair, I have not had my BMW break on me often, in ~5 years of owning it. I will not take it over my Altima, if my only concern for a trip is reliability of the car, clearly that will be wrong. I get that this board generally will be less receptive to owning BMW, however, one must do so with right information in mind/at hand. Costly to repair YES, Costly to buy YES, But definitely not one of the most unreliable cars. This from my experience not from CR or any other website/resource.
livesoft
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by livesoft »

I only trust the "Top Gear" folks for info about cars. The Stig is my kind of guy (or maybe gal?).
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Topic Author
n171n
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by n171n »

So just got the inspection report from the dealership ... here is the breakdown.

INSTALL NEW BATTERY & ALTERNATOR (Battery is FAULTY & DISCHARGED DUE TO FAILED ALTERNATOR) 1,795.63
Replace right thrust rod and bushings (Found worn/loose ball joint) 496.13
Replace left thrust rod and bushings (Found worn/loose ball joint) 495.63
PERFORM ALIGNMENT (PERFORM ALIGNMENT ONCE ALL SUSPENSION WORK IS DONE) 139.95
Replace power steering supply line (Found leak at power steering hose) 172.76
Replace power steering cooler line (Found leak at power steering hose) 455.71
Replace all v-belts (Found v-belts to be in poor condition) 275.58
Replace valve cover gaskets (Found engine oil leak) 673.24
Replace power steering return hose (Found leak at power steering hose) 241.08
Replace power steering pressure hose (Found leak at power steering hose) 448
Replace OIL PAN (OIL PAN DAMAGED) 607.09
Replace CUP HOLDER 258.17
Sub Total 6058.97
Tax 424.13
Grand Total 6483.11

This is a joke. The battery is still under warranty by AAA since it is <3yrs old; the valve cover gaskets were replaced/repaired by a Nissan Dealership at a cost of $600 2 months ago. Very frustrated at the level of back and forth I'm going to have to do to get this resolved. So I asked the dealership on what they would give me in trade-in and they offered a flat $3000.

Considering getting AAA to replace the battery. See if i can drive the car out of the lot and take it to a used car lot and sell it for whatever I can get for it. I wonder if I can do that with a bad alternator ... or should I spend the money to get the alternator replaced/repaired.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by TheOscarGuy »

n171n wrote:So just got the inspection report from the dealership ... here is the breakdown.
Replace CUP HOLDER 258.17
Dealership is going to attempt to rip you off, and will be successful if you buy into their BS. How difficult is it for you to get a second opinion from smaller BMW-specialized shop? They should tell you what's what. If you don't know one, look up on bimmer forums online for a good mechanic in your area.
At the very least, in the meantime, you could call AAA and see about getting the battery replaced. Since you mention this is still under warranty, this will at least get you to address one of the issues.
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mike143
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by mike143 »

Looks like they are trying to sell you a new BMW. I would hit up a BMW forum.
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SarasotaJohn
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by SarasotaJohn »

Well to go with OscarGuy's post and the next ten you'll see.... DEALERSHIP???? The age of your car just screams affordable repairs at a reputable indy BMW mechanic. To be honest none of the work is rocket science, I'd think a good independant mechanic could do it even if there's not someone specializing in BMW or German local. I don't have time to look at schematics now to see whats involved, but $1,200 in just replacing power steering hoses is insane. Getting valve cover gaskets replaced at a Nissan dealership boggles my mind a bit too.
Keep It Simple
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Keep It Simple »

TheOscarGuy wrote:
I was just pointing to my own experiences, I had no intentions of pointing to the CR. It has been my experience that, while costly to repair, I have not had my BMW break on me often, in ~5 years of owning it. I will not take it over my Altima, if my only concern for a trip is reliability of the car, clearly that will be wrong. I get that this board generally will be less receptive to owning BMW, however, one must do so with right information in mind/at hand. Costly to repair YES, Costly to buy YES, But definitely not one of the most unreliable cars. This from my experience not from CR or any other website/resource.
This has nothing to do with this board being less receptive to owning a BMW or not. If you can afford to buy a BMW and pay for the repairs good for you. It does not bother me at all. What does bother me is when people try to claim that the reliability of a BMW is "good" compared to other recognized leaders in reliability such as Toyota and Honda or that it is "good" compared with how reliable cars were 20 or 30 years ago. There is a reason that the common accepted practice by people in the know is to lease a BMW for only as long as it is covered by the bumper to bumper warranty.

To top it off, it is in my opinion not wise to give this gentleman false hope that if he drops $6,500.00 at a dealership, or $4,000.00 at a local mechanic that his car will be good to go for another 100,000 miles.

All cars can be made to last to 250,000 miles...the question is at what cost? With a Toyota or Honda, the cost is relatively minimal. With a BMW the cost is ridiculous no matter where you have it serviced, not to mention the inconvenience of being without your vehicle while it is at the repair shop. No one wants to get in their vehicle and have to worry about whether it is going to get you where you want to go.

To claim that BMW's are reliable is ridiculous and not backed up by trustworthy sources. Toyota and Honda are reliable and backed up by trustworthy sources. Everyone knows this.

To the original poster, I think you would be best to trade in this 165,000 mile BMW asap and get what you can for it. If you do not, I can all but guarantee that you are in for a long, expensive next couple years.

Please let us know what you decide to do.

K.I.S.
Randomize
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Randomize »

OP,

If the list of things you posted earlier came from the shop rather than yourself, pull out. There are a lot of shops (particularly the corporate chains) that will try to scalp you on suspension/brake repairs whenever you take your car in for basic maintenance. A strut tower making noise is frequently just a loose bolt. If it really is a bad tower or shock, fine, replace it, but there's no need to do both sides. As for the bearings, you would know if they needed to be replaced by a dragging/grinding metal-on-metal noise coming from them when you drive. Mechanics love to out each other as cheats (usually so you'll trust them not to cheat you :P) so if you have any doubts about the integrity of this shop, take it elsewhere and ask for a second opinion. Just saying, the fact that they didn't tell you exactly whether it was a bad battery or an alternator is a bad sign. If you don't mind paying a premium for the work that actually needs to be done, just take it to the dealer.

Good luck!
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jeffyscott
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by jeffyscott »

n171n wrote: Grand Total 6483.11
:shock:

I don't know much about what most of those things cost, especially on BMWs, but $1800 for a battery and alternator sounds insane.

This: http://www.automd.com/repaircost/
seems to be substantially less than your dealership, eg. battery and alternator $1330 at dealership, $705 at a shop.

But, even if you can shave as much as $2000 off the repair cost, you are still looking at over $4000 in repairs and giving up the $3000 or more that you could get for the car. So this would be like paying $7000-9000 for this car.
Anon1234
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Anon1234 »

n171n wrote:I haven't put any money into this in ~2 years.
n171n wrote:the valve cover gaskets were replaced/repaired by a Nissan Dealership at a cost of $600 2 months ago.
Stop going to Dealers. Look for a mechanic who doesn't have to support the overhead of a BMW dealership, or any other dealership. I use Angie's list and Yelp to find mechanics who will be reasonable, and have treated their customers well.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by TheOscarGuy »

Keep It Simple wrote: To claim that BMW's are reliable is ridiculous and not backed up by trustworthy sources. Toyota and Honda are reliable and backed up by trustworthy sources. Everyone knows this.
I have repeated twice that this has been my personal experience, not from any other source. May I ask where "everyone knows this" is coming from? And I am not even claiming anything is wrong with Toyotas and Hondas, they are perfect cars that are highly reliable. My statement has been, in my personal experience, BMW breaks not as often as many will have you believe, BUT with a caveat that it will cost you dearly when it does.

Or maybe you are claiming I am not trustworthy, and you have perfect reason to claim that: I am just another anonymous poster on an internet board :happy
Keep It Simple
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by Keep It Simple »

I know three people who have owned BMW's and none of them have purchased them again after the first one. The story is the same from all of them. They loved the performance, but their reliability has been atrocious. But don't take the word of an anonymous poster on this board, but rather take the word of the majority of anonymous posters on this board by looking up other BMW posts on this forum. Better yet, look up any reliable site on the internet and you will find that BMW's have reliability issues...and expensive ones at that.

Like I mentioned, more power to you if you wish to buy one...I think they are great cars based on their performance, but I do not want to give the original poster false hope that his high mileage BMW will hold up after dumping thousands in repairs into it. The data does not indicate that it will.

Finally, I strongly believe that the open market resale value will tell us everything we need to know about the reliability and longevity of this car. If BMW's were so reliable and able to last into high mileage, they wouldn't be priced so low at higher mileages. You could sell a used 2001 Honda CRV with 150,000 miles which at new sold for a third of the price of a BMW 7 series for almost double what the original poster is being offered for his BMW. Why is that? The resale market knows why.

TheOscarGuy...I am glad you have not had your BMW break on you often. I hope it continues to be reliable for you.

K.I.S.
rmark1
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by rmark1 »

I'd get a second opinion on the repairs and find out if its a battery OR alternator - it's not likely both. Much the rest on the list can wait and see for a little while, but struts or joints at 165,000 isn't unusual. Is it worth spending the money to keep the car for at most 3.5 more years, which is when your estimated usage will hit 200,000 miles?
Topic Author
n171n
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by n171n »

After getting a couple other quotes, negotiated to have BMW replace the alternator, vbelts, and battery for $1800 out the door. Am making some progress with AAA reimbursing me the costs of my other battery ... so may catch a break there.

While the non-dealership quotes were about 100-200 cheaper, if I took the car elsewhere, I would've been on the hook to pay BMW 150-200 in diagnostic fees and so when I was able to get the dealership down to within 200 of the other quotes, went ahead and told them to take care of the bare minimum I needed to be able to drive the car off the lot

I had even gotten some quotes for trade-in values and they ranged from 3000 as-is to 4500 if repaired to driveable state. So I figured I'm on the hook for a minimum of 1500 either way I look at it so might as well go ahead and get the bare minimum done and maybe drive the car for another 6-12 months (Fingers crossed!) while I shop around for something else.
eharri3
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by eharri3 »

Knew a guy with a 3 series he had for most of senior year in college and a few years after. Purchased brand new. He put 5 yrs and 60K on it then traded it for a Corolla when he started his family. He said it isn't one of those vehicles you hold for 15 years and 200K. Maintenance costs eventually start to bury you. You have your fun putting the first 50 or 60K on it and hten move on.
thomase
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by thomase »

Without debating whether the alternator and battery both need to be replaced, $1800 still sounds awful high to change those out plus replace the drive belts. I googled some remanufactured alternators for the 2001 7-series going for $250. I've replaced a couple batteries with the excellent Walmart Maxx brand, and they go for about $70-80 in my foggy memory. Belts don't cost much. Just for kicks I looked up a rebuilt alternator for my Accord and it's $100.
SomeoneWhoIsntMe
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by SomeoneWhoIsntMe »

At least with german cars you get some variation in their unreliability. You have to fix stuff all the time, but on the plus side it's always a new adventure. Were this an american car, you'd be fixing exactly the same thing over and over and over again, like a lower intake manifold gasket replacement every 40k, or three broken window regulators in a year. Buy a Toyota/Lexus, and they're just plain reliable. Although with Lexus, especially the nicer ones, you get up near BMW in terms of maintenance costs when crazy premium luxury items break.

For instance, the $500 balljoint jobs on your BMW is because BMW use a *very* nice front suspension arrangement of a cast aluminum lower control arm with an integrated balljoint. This is a lightweight, durable design that performs wonderfully, but when it does finally go bad, you've got to replace the whole thing. A garden variety car will have a $60 stamped steel arm which lasts 20 years before the bushing wears out and a serviceable $40 balljoint. Lexus do the one-piece aluminum arm thing as well, at least on the ones I've worked on. In fact, there's domestic vehicles that need the control arm replaced with the balljoint, but those are neither durable, lightweight, or of a particularly eloquent design.

Definitely get rid of the car though. At 165k, you're on borrowed time already, as far as cars go there's nothing *major* wrong with it quite yet, and you're already potentially $6000 deep in repair costs. Just wait until the cooling system takes a dump on you, or the power steering leak kills the pump and/or rack. Yeah, you don't HAVE to do any of that maintenance past the alternator and battery thing to keep it running, but if you're driving 40 miles to work, do you want to roll the dice every morning on whether or not your car is going to leave you stranded? Also, depending on your driving skill and how oblivious you are, the ball joint thing is arguably a safety hazard, if you don't notice it get worse and it lets go on the freeway, you could easily kill yourself and a few other people. Even if you *DO* shell out all the money to fix this month's batch of problems, the waterpump could eat it's self next week and cause a headgasket to blow, and then you'd really be in for it.

You're about to wind up making lease payments just to own a clapped out beater.
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n171n
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Re: Car trade/fix opinion...

Post by n171n »

The dealership is driving the car over to my home right now with a new alternator, drive belts, and battery for $1750 out the door. I feel reasonably good about the price I got here ... but really crummy about not having explored the path to rebuild the alternator. Not being a car expert, I didn't even explore that option

Fingers crossed to an uneventful next 6 months
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