Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

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Fieldsy1024
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Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Is it common to negotiate a price for this kind of service? I know I had my french drain installed in April, and I had prices all over the place. One company cut the entire price in half (8,200 to 4,100...didnt go with him because they looked like creeps). I did go with a company that offered to do it for 4,600 when their original quote was 7,200...

Some people say you get what you pay for, but I know that companies out there overcharge so much, almost expecting you to negotiate.


I got a price for 5,850 on a heating and air install. The price of the parts are about 2,700. The labor would be taking out the old furnace, ac unit, coils and replacing them.

What should I expect to pay?

I am also getting quotes from 2-3 other companies.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Spirit Rider »

Your ability to negotiate the price is dependent on the contractor's workload. This is simply not the best time to be trying to get the best price. It is still during peak A/C season most places.

You would want to try for the lull period between the heat and the A/C. This varies from early to late fall depending on where you are in the country.
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Fieldsy1024
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

In September-Oct in Philly, the weather is cool. Not hot enough for AC, not cold enough for heat. Would this be a good plan of attack?

I've heard early spring is good too.
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Optimistic
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Optimistic »

Here's a link to a thread on another forum I frequent discussing the price of installing a heat pump.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Spirit Rider »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:In September-Oct in Philly, the weather is cool. Not hot enough for AC, not cold enough for heat. Would this be a good plan of attack?

I've heard early spring is good too.
I would trend for October. You should keep you eye out for advertising/fliers from contractors. Sometime the HVAC suppliers are also running sales at the wholesale level. So you might get a break on both the labor and the equipment.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by travellight »

I recently had this work done and went with the lowest bid; that was my form of negotiation. He did a fine job. He just runs a tighter margin than the others. I did not want to work on knocking his price down any lower; it was already half the others' bids.

I do try to negotiate when I am just working with one person and I think the price is higher than what I think it should be. I agree that fall is the best time to try negotiating.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by rfburns »

Like others have said, it depends. How in need are you? If you can wait you will likely save money and have more time to vet A/C contractors. Ask your friends and neighbors who they use. A professional installation will start saving you money on day one. A shoddy installation will start wasting a small portion every day.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Well,
Right now the weather has been cool and probably have another month of heat.

One company with all 12 reviews on Angie's list being good...
Cost: 5850
Goodman brands, looked up all the equipment, came in around 2700-2800 dollars
16 seer, 95% effy furnace, 2.5 ton out unit, 3 ton coil

Another company with hundreds of good reviews
Cost: 9000
Lennox brands, didn't look up the equipment because this is way too high for me, 14 seer, 95 effy. This guy was a straight salesman, very fast talker, made me feel good inside.

The other guy that came in cheaper had sweat on his face, dirty clothes, a crew of 6 people total. They didn't explain fully what the high guy explained, and I know Goodman is a little cheaper in price, but I hear its pretty good quality.

I told them both I need to save a little more and maybe in October I can give them a call. The cheaper guy sounds like he really wants the job, the higher guy said this is as low as we can go (I didn't even ask him to come down, and he didn't even try). The cheaper guy seems like I can drop the price, but how far?

I still plan on getting another quote or two, but I am going to wait on this.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by dbltrbl »

Just a warning about Goodman Brand. I went with it as I was given a 10 year parts and Labour Warranty by a reputable dealer. Good news is unit works and dealer has stood behind it so far. Bad news from Day 1 is that unit is noisy. I mean noisy. I have same unit. It is in basement and it is annoying on second floor when it starts up or shuts down. So walk in with open eyes. Good luck.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

What kind of AC/furnace was it? I'm getting a 2.5 ton 16 seer unit, 3 ton coil, 95% Furnace

The parts I have now are Goodman. The old home owner decided to put a 3 ton unit outside and the house only need 2 ton MAYBE 2.5. It lived for 10 years. I never had much of a headache from the noise, and Im sure the new parts will be more quiet....but yes I heard the Lennox is more quiet than Goodman.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Now I am thinking, if I am waiting until October, would waiting til next spring be better since my heater still works fine. Maybe get one more season out of my heater?

Would it be more cost effective in the fall or spring?
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

Here is a thread from here on BH that has some good information about buying a new HVAC system:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 1&t=119757

If you don't mind my saying so, I think I gave some pretty good tips (we just replaced our heat pump). Since you have some time, I encourage you to do some research. I linked to a couple of very good forums in my answer above.

Regarding time of year... As others have mentioned, spring or fall is probably better as those are less busy times for dealers. Check with manufacturers (or with the salesmen). Manufacturers often have rebates during certain times of the year. When we bought our Carrier system in the spring, they were running rebates up to $1000. I don't really know the specific times of year that rebates are available.

To summarize some of my points:
1. Insist on a Manual J load calculation. That is the only way to ensure that you have a correctly sized system. Don't assume that your current system is sized correctly. It might be and it might not. Especially for cooling, you do NOT want a system that is too big.
2. Compare apples to apples. When comparing bids, make sure that the systems involved and the work involved are similar. When I read HVAC forums, people often post quotes for system A from contractor 1 and system B from contractor 2 and the two systems are not really equivalent. If one contractor is quoting a two stage heat pump with a variable speed air handler and the other is quoting a builder grade single stage heat pump with a single speed air handler, you can bet that the second system will be much cheaper.
3. Understand what you want from your system: Better efficiency? Better comfort?
4. If you post your systems on the forums I linked above (the HVAC-TALK forum does not allow pricing, but their forum members will be able to help you compare among your quoted systems - need model numbers for AC, coil, and furnace) you will get good information. They can tell you if quoted systems are comparable. They can tell you if the quoted components actually will work well together.
5. Consider getting a media cabinet. A media cabinet is simply a component that houses a 4-5" pleated filter. A filter like that will give better filtration and will still have sufficient air flow that your coil and blower will operate correctly.
6. If you have any exposed ductwork (like in a garage or unfinished basement), consider having it sealed and reinsulated (if necessary).
7. Depending on where you are located, you might consider a heat pump with gas backup. This is called a dual fuel or hybrid system. The heat pump provides heat down to a certain temperature (configurable to take energy pricing into account) then the furnace takes over. If you are in a relatively mild climate, you might be able to use an 80% efficient furnace vs a 95% furnace. If the heat pump can provide most of the heat you will need, the furnace won't run much, so you don't really take a hit by going for 80% efficiency.
8. If you are in a humid environment (during cooling season), consider getting a two stage AC and variable speed air handler. This kind of system has superior dehumidification capability (we have one). Most of the time that it runs it will run on low speed (and will generally run longer than a single stage system). Longer run times means more humidity is removed. Also, the temperature will remain more constant.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

You just gave me a headache, not because of how you explained it, but its so much more to it than just throwing a dart at any model haha. Thank you for that post.

I guess what it comes down to is I want to get the most out of my system, but without breaking the bad to hard (who doesn't?). I am a 28 year old new home owner who already put in about 20k into the house...my savings account looks bad.

I will look at those sites in that thread and do some research.

Thanks!
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

The exact models that the guy charging 5,850 are...
GSX160301- 16 SEER Outdoor Condenser, 2.5T

GME950805CX- 95% Variable Speed Furnace

CAPF3743C6- Upflow Evaporator Coil.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

My points 1, 2, and 3 are probably the most important at this point.

1. Insist on a Manual J (from every installer). That is the only way to correctly size your system. Each installer's Manual J calculation should be pretty similar. I don't really know exactly how close "pretty similar" means, but if one guy does the calculation and says you need 3 tons and another guy does the calculation and says you need 4 tons, then something is not quite right somewhere.

2. Compare apples to apples. HVAC systems are like cars. Lots of different makes (brands) and several different models (levels) in a brand. If you were shopping for a car and you found that you could get a Lexus for $$$$ or a Chevy Impala for $$, you would know there is more here to compare than just he price. The cars, feature for feature, are just not comparable. So, the Impala might be cheaper than the Lexus, but they are totally different classes of vehicle. If two HVAC contractors each gave you a bid for a Carrier system and one quoted an Infinity (almost top of the line - under Greenspeed) and another quoted a Trane entry level system (don't have a model number or name handey), then the two systems are not really comparable.

3. Try to understand the features that you want in your HVAC system, communicate that to the dealer, and then they will be more likely to give you a quote based on those features. Don't be afraid to ask for a "good, better, best" quote. The dealer should quote you a system from each of the typical 3 levels of "quality" (or features). It might help you decide on which features you really want/need when you see the prices right next to each other.

Here is a link to a post in one of the forums that I linked to in my earlier answer:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hv ... 238.html?9

"tigerdunes" presents his general spec sheet for a new system. On that forum, tigerdunes, ryanhughes, energy_rater_la, mike_home are all professionals and give very reliable information. They are very helpful.

In the end, the best thing that you can do is be an informed consumer. HVAC can be pretty complicated, but, as with many things, a lot of the choice will be driven on the features that you want and how much you are willing to spend. Most people say that the most important part of an HVAC system is a good installation (which includes correct sizing).

Given your model numbers, you should be able to get some good feedback at gardenweb (or HVAC-Talk - no prices allowed here). If you post there are willing to provide some information (location, house characteristics, whether or not the unit size was determined by Manual J, etc) when asked, you will get some valuable help, especially from tigerdunes. They can help you sort out what you have been a quoted (entry level, mid level, high end, matched/mismatched, etc).

Good luck!
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

The expensive guy was asking me all of those questions that you do in a Manuel J. He even asked me which way the sun hits our house which was pretty interesting.

This guy was very against putting in a Goodman because they don't want to base their name on a lesser system. I always thought Goodmans were solid, not the very best, but great value.

I spent atleast 1.5 hrs today just reading random stuff about HVAC and I feel much better about it. It is scary though about picking someone good. I have Angie's list, but that only helps so much. Someone could write a review on a cheap deal they got when the guy installing it was someone doing it totally wrong.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

That's the risk of relying too much on reviews. How many people really know what a good install is? Anyone replacing an old system will probably be happy with a new system. Some people will focus mostly on cost.

Educate yourself. Talk with the installers. Ask them about some of the stuff you have learned. Ask them to explain why you would want a two stage heat pump and variable speed air handler or why you wouldn't. Hint. You might want it primarily for comfort, secondarily for efficiency. You might not because it is just out of your price range or because you don't live in a super hot or humid area. See if they can explain the pluses and minuses to your satisfaction.

One thing that I did when shipping for my system was to look at the manufacturer websites and try to find factory certified installers in my area. I put some value in at least some of the extra certifications that some dealers have achieved.

Good luck!
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

I live in Philly where I will need the air on for 3-4 months. I think a stage 2 would be way out of my price range. I will get the good, better, and best prices though. I think a stage one is all I will need or want.

I was looking on Goodman for NATE Circle Certified installers and I found a couple in my area. I'm not sure what you think of Goodman. I am open to suggestions, but I hear that its not bad, not the best, but best value. The more important thing is the install itself.

Are you familiar with that NATE certificate?

I'm going to wait until October when things slow down, get those estimates from those companies.

Thanks again for helping me with this. It really makes me feel better about all of this. I love to haggle, but this is something I'd want to not get a half assed job. I will however ask each company to lower the price if they can.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Spirit Rider »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:I was looking on Goodman for NATE Circle Certified installers and I found a couple in my area. I'm not sure what you think of Goodman. I am open to suggestions, but I hear that its not bad, not the best, but best value. The more important thing is the install itself.
Here is my take on the whole Goodman vs. Carrier, Lennox, and Trane.

Goodman is a "contractor" sales oriented product. They have minimal consumer advertising. They do not restrict the contractors who can buy their product. They are no frills and value oriented.

The others are consumer oriented products, They do major nationwide media advertising (the customer eventually pays for that). They have approved contractor networks. Which limits competition, but does not necessarily ensure quality. They try to differentiate their product and retain premium prices through branding.

One thing to keep in mind. There are only a few major compressor manufacturers and manufactures of other components. A good analogy is to look at the various brands that GM had. Consider Goodman a Chevy and the others Buick, Olds, Pontiac, and Cadillac. They all had mostly the same engines, transmissions, etc... Are there differences and some are more refined products than others. Yes, but they all got you from point A to point B.

The premium brand contractors hate and I do mean hate Goodman. They will unjustly disparage the products. They are trying to protect their business and their margins. They despise that Goodman will sell to anyone and have to compete on price against Goodman contractors. They populate HVAC-Talk in significant quantities.

However, there is a caveat, because anyone can be a Goodman contractor, buyer beware. The key thing in any HVAC installation is the competency of the installer. Incompetently installed equipment will be problematic and potential have premature failures.

If you want to get the best value, you are probably going to get it with a Goodman. Just be aware of what you are getting for your money and make sure the contractor is certified, competent, and has good references. Just because someone is certified, it does not mean they are competent or have good business practices.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

So that Nate Circle Certified Installer doesn't mean anything?

Its seems like its really hard to weed out the bad from the good. Like I said, I have Angie's list, but when it comes to this kind of job, it doesn't mean much. Most people who want to sell you things will talk anything up. I will do some more research since I have 2 months to decide (or even longer).
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

I'm not sure if NATE REALLY means anything or not. Here is the link to their FAQs. Included are some questions/answers about how a company achieves NATE.

http://www.natex.org/about-nate/ask-nate-faqs/

I still think that having some certifications, from NATE and/or manufacturers (if the manufacturer offers them) seems like a valid factor to consider. There is no guarantee that the certified installers will be better than non-certified. Maybe the non-certified just haven't gotten around to it yet?

Regarding Goodman. I read the HVAC forum at Gardenweb and HVAC-TALK a lot. Spirit Rider is right that not all dealers (that sell "upscale" brands) like Goodman. I don't think that is universally true (and I don't think that Spirit Rider was saying that). However, I do think that it is probably true that Goodmans are more often pitched to budget-conscious consumers because they are more budget-friendly. I doubt that the only difference in price is the ad budget of the premium brands.

Spirit Rider's caveat is worth mentioning. It is true that any contractor can buy and install a Goodman. I don't know how the screening process works for premium brand dealers, but I would guess that, at the very least, the premium manufacturers would prefer to be associated with better quality installers than poor quality installers. I would hope that they would have some kind of weeding out process. If that is actually true, and the extent to which it is true, is speculation on my part.

Farther upthread, someone posted a link to fatwallet where there was a thread by a guy that had a heat pump, I think a Goodman, installed by someone he found on Craig's list (or maybe the Craig's list is from a different thing that I saw). Anyway, this guy (the forum poster) bought his Goodman online and had someone install it for him. I don't remember the details (and I guess I can't be bothered to look them up right now :oops: ), so I can't remember if his install went ok or not. As I recall, it probably did has the purpose of his post was to describe his experience and show how much money he saved. Personally, I would be leery of doing that. There is some question as to whether or not a company will honor the warranty (or if the warranty is even valid) if the unit was not purchased by a legitimate dealer/installer. Maybe yes, maybe no. Also, personally, I would rather have an installing company and the system manufacturer standing behind the intallation and the equipment (hopefully), then being on my own.

If you have had any work at done at your home by contractors, subcontractor, handymen, etc, then you know that it is very difficult to find people that do what you want done and do it right. They should know how to do things right (neat, workmanlike, to code (if applicable)). They should know how to things right without asking you, the customer, if it is right. Depending on what the job is, how are you supposed to know?

Anyway, this is getting longwinded.

I don't see any reason not to consider a Goodman. If you do, I would encourage you to also get a quote on at least their lowest end two stage/variable speed air handler/communicating system. It would be interesting to compare the price of that system with high end features to similar (and less high end) system from premium brands. Depending on the difference, you just might find that you can afford "high end" technology. When getting your bids, try to the best of your ability to get bids (across manufacturers) that have the most similar specs possible. Since you are considering a Goodman, which will be lower priced (feature for feature) than the most similar systems from premium manufacturers, you might also consider bids for more Goodman models. You can then compare amongst manufacturers based on features (what do system with equivalent features cost). You can also compare based on features/price. If you had been shopping strictly based on features and perferred, initially, premium manufacturers, you might find that you could some level of system, let's call it C from Carrier or Trane. If you throw Goodman into the mix, you might find that a system with the same features costs less, but, if you went up in the Goodman line, you might be able to afford a level B or A system. I am just suggesting slicing and dicing your shopping and bids both ways: features and price.

I've seen it recommend, albeit by the denizens of that HVAC-TALK forum, that you should consider an additional 10 year labor warranty (if offered by the manufacturer). Typically, new systems will come with 1 year labor and 10 year parts, if registered within a pretty short timeframe (30 days?). The additional labor warranty covers any labor costs (and should cover service call fees, but you should ask) for 10 years. I got the additional labor warranty (from Carrier) for our system because it is "higher tech" (two stage heat pump, variable speed air handler, dehumidification mode, wifi controller (aka thermostat)). I figured that with more features, there is a better chance of having some kind of problem than with a simpler system. I preferred a manufacturer backed warranty rather than dealer backed (I didn't ask if the dealer offered anything like this) in the event that the dealer went out of business, lost their association with Carrier, or I just decided that I didn't like them for some reason.

Make sure that your final contract lists actual model numbers for all equipment and that those model numbers correspond to the components that you actually think you are getting. Also, make sure that the equipment that is delivered corresponds to the contract. I have read on forums of people who, for whatever reason, apparently have had equipment installed other than what they specified (or thought they specified). One woman thought she was getting two stage/variable speed (Was it specified in the contract? Not clear from the post.), but got single stage/single speed (she was only charged this amount, but if you order a chevy, expect a cadillac, but are delivered a chevy, even for a chevy price, you are bound be to disappointed). Sometimes a different air handler or condenser will make it on the truck (could be mistake, could be that they didn't have the component in stock so someone loaded something else). Once the system is actually installed, it obviously becomes much more of a hassle to address the situation. I don't want to paint a bleak picture here like this happens all the time, it is just something to be aware of and to add to a checklist (if you have one) as you go through the process.

If you consider two stage equipment, you must go all the way: Two stage heat pump, variable speed air handler, communicating controller. Two stage heat pump + single speed air handler is no good. The two stages are wasted. Two stage + variable speed air handler + non-communicating controller is, from what I can tell, no good either. You can't get the most out of your high end features if you don't have a communicating controller.

Please note that I am not trying to talk you into buying a high end system! I just like mine and would encourage you to consider it, if the price is right. And, if you consider it, don't get talked into getting part of a high end system.

Finally, and this will be more important at the time that you actually have the system installed, read the installation manual. Either beforehand (maybe you can get it online) or during/after installation. There might be a few things that you can see (like the plumbing of the condensate drain) that you could easily verify (if called out specifically in the instructions) if they were done correctly or not. In my case, the installation manual for the air handler had very specific instructions for how to install the condensate drain, and it was not installed correctly. As a matter of fact, it was installed in a manner that was specifically called out in the instructions for how NOT to do it. We did get it corrected with no complaint from the dealer, but if I hadn't read the manual and looked at the unit, I would never have known. Would it have made a big difference in the long run? I don't know, but might have. I also had a UV light installed and had to strong arm the guy a little bit to install it correctly (i.e. according to what the instructions say to do). He read the booklet and did the job right with no complaint. He said that he had always installed them a different way. That is, at a different location on the air handler vs the correct location, which is to ensure that the coil is bathed in UV light. The job of the UV light is to prevent funk from growing on the coil, not to disinfect the air as it passes through the air handler.

Are you suffering from information overload yet? :happy

Good luck! I know that it can be stressful to buy a big (expensive, and not easily returnable) item like this. But, do your homework, keep your eyes open, aim high, and you should be pleased with the result.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Spirit Rider »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:So that Nate Circle Certified Installer doesn't mean anything?

Its seems like its really hard to weed out the bad from the good. Like I said, I have Angie's list, but when it comes to this kind of job, it doesn't mean much. Most people who want to sell you things will talk anything up. I will do some more research since I have 2 months to decide (or even longer).
No certification is a good thing. However, understand it is like certifications in many areas. It means the person dedicated the time and effort to become certified. However, there are many smart doctors and lawyers. Does that mean they make good surgeons or are the best lawyer for your case, not necessarily.

In addition you still need good references. Unfortunately, this is a fact of modern life. It is harder to know you have good trade people. Just like a mechanic you need personal references, friends, family, and colleagues. This is because a bad HVAC install, like a bad car repair may not show up for years. So unfortunately you really should look for longevity in your community. It is a little unfair, but you want someone to have been around long enough for their mistakes to have shown up.

So use certifications for screening, but don't dismiss someone with a long term good reputation just because they aren't certified. I have been doing software development for over twenty years and I don't mind saving I am pretty darn good and people who know me know that. I have never felt the need to get certifications. Yet I know plenty of certified developers who are just not that great.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by killjoy2012 »

I would strongly suggest listening carefully to the advice that wageoghe provided in this thread. The only change I would make to his advice is that instead of insisting that the contractor perform a Manual J, use that as one of your down selection criteria. In other words, you shouldn't have to tell the bidding company to do a Man J... get 5 quotes and take note of which of them 'bother' to perform the load calc on their own w/o yourself saying a word. That may be a good indicator as to the quality of installation they'll do. IMO, the quality of installation is just as important, probably even more important, than the equipment you select.

That said, I would not buy Goodman - many of the reasons have already been provided. I also wouldn't buy Trane or York (way overpriced). When I shopped in 2007, Rheem/Ruud was a good balance point between the 2 extremes.

In terms of making sure you compare apples to apples across brands, know the basics of what you want BEFORE calling anyone for quotes. Do you want a single stage, 2 stage, or modulating? What efficiency level? What SEER on the AC side? What freon type? How do the warranties differ? What other service/parts are included in their planned install - air filters, humidifier (same brand and model across all quotes?), relining the chimney, and duct work, etc. etc.

As far as price negotiation, I personally wouldn't do that. I would be straight up with all of the sales guys in telling them you're going to get 5/7/10 quotes before moving on anything, and that you're going pick based on X, Y, Z factors... including COST... and that you want the type of systems described in the paragraph above. I would RUN from any contractor that quotes you 8k and then agrees to do it for $5k after negotiation. Why? - Where do you think he's going to skimp to save money? A: On the install. Wham, bam install... vs. doing it right. Or on the equipment - "Oh, the $8k quote included a modulating furnace... but the $4k only included a single.... oops - sorry." And why was he trying to bend you over to begin with if he's not going to cut the equipment or install/labor? Nothing is free....
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by tibbitts »

I would RUN from any contractor that quotes you 8k and then agrees to do it for $5k after negotiation. Why? - Where do you think he's going to skimp to save money? A: On the install. Wham, bam install... vs. doing it right.
I often wonder about this. Admittedly it has nothing to do with hvac, but in my contract work over the years, customers would often negotiate; occasionally they'd even re-negotiate at the last minute, after fees had been agreed to. Still, it never occurred to me to not do the best job I could. Since, assuming the hvac components have been committed to in writing, all that's left is labor, the situation isn't all that dissimilar. So, is the general experience that negotiating will lead to lower quality labor?

Paul
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Thank you all for taking the time and helping me through this. Its very helpful.

I think when I get estimates, I will get them from atleast 4-5 companies, and I will just try to pay attention to see who seems more professional. It is hard to weed out guys who are great sales guys. I had Sila over for an estimate already (the expensive quote I got), saying Goodman is basically shit, he only installs good stuff like Lennox. He said over and over 7 out of 10 installers do it wrong, blah blah blah. As a customer, he wanted to scare me and he did a good job.

I will keep reading up on Angies list, but you can only go so far with that. Like someone already said, people will give good reviews because they just got a new system and are happy its over with just as long as the guys didn't get mud on the carpet.

I am interested in hearing what the two stage systems are and how much. Sila explained it to me which was helpful. That high quote for for a single stage, 13 seer lennox products, 95% effy furnace.

One company is still in business who did the install 10 years ago for the other home owners in our house. The AC unit was .5 ton oversized. That scares me a little, but 10 years ago, they could of had different people working there and just got better people to replace them.

I won't ask a company to do a manual J like someone said. If they are good at what they do, they should do it automatically. Sila did do this. He was very professional, but a lot of reviews online tell me that they are good, but overpriced.

At this point I almost feel like I can handle paying over priced for peace of mind. On the other hand, I don't want to get ripped off either.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Valuethinker »

Just on the single stage v. 2 stage.

In all the AC threads we have here, people have mentioned how much greater comfort they experience with a 2 speed system. The basic problem with AC systems (and particularly if they are oversized-- that's why you need a right size calc) is that they cycle on and off too much-- too cold and then too hot. The reason is the discomfort is largely about the humidity, not the heat per se.

So I would seriously consider a 2 speed system. It seems to pay off in terms of comfort.

The other comment I would make is that you are only going to do this once. A higher SEER is a hedge against rising electricity prices. Therefore a 15 SEER system is preferred over a 13. I recognize you will hit diminishing marginal returns, and the cost difference may make the payback too long. But electricity prices can go up. I am not saying go to 18 (insufficient upside in that) but 15 I think is justifiable.

For a long series of reasons I believe that US retail electricity prices are likely to rise. The power plants that were built in the 70s, and the grid, need to be replaced. The cost will be several times the historic cost of those assets. In the end, the consumer will have to pay for that-- these assets don't last forever.

(there is a caveat in that gas fired power stations are cheap to build, and quick. However the benefits of low gas prices have more or less fed through to the electricity system, so going forward there's unlikely to be a significant drop in electricity prices arising from cheap gas).
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Okay....a two stage is on much longer but runs at 50% of the power? (aka saving more money, more comfort).

Are all two stage systems also the higher seers? Or is there just as many two stage 13-14-15 seers as there are for single stage. I just would like an opinion on whats more important. Getting a very high seer or getting a two stage that has has a lower seer (if it even exists?)

I suppose I can look at the long term and just because something may cost 3-4k more, maybe in the long run it will even out? The only problem is I may only have our ac running 3 months, possibly 4 months tops. I do live in a humid area (Philly).

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I read somewhere that said a Goodman 2 stage is different because it has a timer? or is timed?
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Valuethinker »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:Okay....a two stage is on much longer but runs at 50% of the power? (aka saving more money, more comfort).
In essence, yes. It runs longer but at a lower noise level. The problem with a single speed system is it can only blast you with cold, or not. If your weather is very humid, but not particularly hot, then it will cycle on and off too much.

I think this is a comfort thing rather than a money saving thing-- not sure power consumption is 1/2.
Are all two stage systems also the higher seers? Or is there just as many two stage 13-14-15 seers as there are for single stage. I just would like an opinion on whats more important. Getting a very high seer or getting a two stage that has has a lower seer (if it even exists?)
That I don't know I am afraid (not US based). My guess is the scatterplot will be all over the place (high SEER, single speed; low SEER, double speed; high SEER, double speed; etc.).
I suppose I can look at the long term and just because something may cost 3-4k more, maybe in the long run it will even out? The only problem is I may only have our ac running 3 months, possibly 4 months tops. I do live in a humid area (Philly).

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I read somewhere that said a Goodman 2 stage is different because it has a timer? or is timed?
Can't comment re Goodman.

It will be interesting to see what the 'step' is on SEER. I don't believe it's huge for SEER 15 v. 13, but I could be wrong. Your contractor will have an opinion whether it is worthwhile (and not necessarily just a self interested one).

You can work out your summer electricity consumption and potential savings.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fus ... gw_code=CA

the EIA's calculator is a spreadsheet on the rhs. My own view is if the payback is 10 years or less, then it's worth it (I've done things with a 20 year payback, because I know I'll never do them again in this house-- seize the day). If you plan to sell in 5 years though, probably not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_ ... ency_ratio
tells me going from 13 to 15 saves 1-13/15 per cent = 13.33%.

I am sure Consumer Reports must have reported on brand reliability. Bearing in mind comments here about installation (that it matters a lot), that should still be worth consulting.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

From what I have seen, two stage systems are typically only available in higher SEER ratings.

You can look at any manufacturer's website and you will see that they typically have 3-4 levels of systems. On Carrier's website they are (from lowest specs/price to highest) Comfort, Performance, Infinity, Greenspeed. Most (maybe) all websites should also have a comparison tool so that you can compare features, within the brand. In Carrier's case, there is a 16 SEER (Note that all SEER ratings are "up to" X. The actual SEER achieved is dependent on getting the best matched components. So, depending on the combination of components, you could get a 13, 14, or 15 SEER using Carrier equipment.) in each of Comfort, Performance, and Infinity. The comparison tool shows them as being very similar, featurewise (which I guess one would expect).

From what I have seen, two stage systems are in higher SEER (and, by extension, higher $$$ systems). Two stage gives another step up in efficiency and a big step up in comfort. The feature may trickle farther down as new technologies (like inverter compressors) become more popular. Similar to how features trickle down in cars. Certainly in my lifetime (49 years) it was possible to buy a car without an air conditioner (maybe it still is), ABS and ESC were only available on higher end cars. Now those kinds of features are available much farther down (some due to safety concerns, others because of consumer expectations and because of the ability to add those formerly high end components economically).

As far as which is important? That is up to you. A two stage system will likely cost more than a single stage (of similar SEER). On Carrier's web site, the lowest (up to) SEER with two stage compressor is 17.2 (Infinity) while the highest (up to) SEER with single stage compressor is 16.5 (Performance) or 16 (Infinity). Generally, SEER ceiling is higher on two stage systems than on single stage.

My guess is that your local climate will be the biggest determining factor in whether or not you "need" a two stage system. The guys on these web sites can help you figure that out:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/hvac/
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.p ... ntial-HVAC

I don't know about Goodman's two stage system being timed or untimed. I think that all (or most) manufacturers that offer a two stage system also offer a "communicating controller" and components (condenser and air handler) that communicate. Goodman's is known as ComfortNet. I believe that to get the most out of a two stage system, you need a communicating controller.

One note about sizing... Heat pumps are typically available in half ton increments (1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, etc). Two stage heat pumps are typically available only in whole ton increments (2, 3, 4, etc). On the surface it would appear that it would be relatively easy to oversize a two stage system. If you calculate your required tonnage and it comes out to 2.4, you could get a 2.5 ton single stage system, but you might have to get a 3 ton two stage. Actually, that is ok because two stage systems are more tolerant of being "oversized" because they have the ability to run in low or high. Two stage systems do still need to be sized correctly, but their variable capacity does allow for some leeway. This quirk in sizing should not really have a bearing on your purchasing decision, but it is useful to know as background information.

Here are some broad strokes of what to learn about and what to consider. These are terms that you will see ad nauseum in forum discussions about HVAC:
1. Single stage vs two stage - Often framed as two stage being more efficient and more comfortable than single stage, but the choice between the two is probably more obvious in some regions than others. Certainly in a more hot and humid climate you "need" two stage more for comfort. In your case, since your cooling season seems relatively short, it may or may not be obvious that a two stage system will be "better" than an efficient single stage.
2. Levels within a brand - Vary somewhat on technical features (the higher the level, the more features), and also on cosmetic features (better case for condenser, quieter operation).
3. Controller/thermostat - A more advanced system requires a more advanced (and compatible) "brain" to actually derive the benefits that you are paying for. When getting a system with communicating capability, it is probably best to use that system's communicating controller rather than that new programmable thermostat someone just bought two years ago and not even a Nest.
4. Best match - The AHRI (http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirect ... /home.aspx) has a directory that lists matching components for all manufacturers. When quoted a condenser and an air handler, you need the best match to achieve the best efficiency. Proper matching of components is what will allow you to more closely achieve the "up to" XX SEER value. This comes up a lot when posters post the system that they have been quoted (model numbers for condenser and air handler). It is often possible that more than one model air handler could be used with a particular model of condenser (and vice versa), but there will be better matches and worse matches. Thy guys on the forums listed above can easily tell if condenser model X and air handler model Y are good matches.
5. Filter cabinet/media cabinet - This is almost a universal recommendation. It is a cabinet that is inline with the return at the air handler. It holds a 4-5" pleated filter. I don't think there is a downside here. Professionals often poo-poo 1" pleated filters (like Filtrete) as being too restrictive (to air flow) and possibly damaging to equipment. Is that true or not? I don't know, but it is a pretty consistent theme. The 4-5" pleated filters cost more, but last longer (as long a one year between replacement), allow more air flow. Note that the filter serves two purposes: reduce crap in the air so that you don't have to breathe it and reduce crap getting into your equipment making it dirty (and possibly damaging it). If a cabinet won't fit near your air handler, you can buy 4-5" pleated filters that fit in the same return opening where you might be using a 1" filter now. This is the option that I chose because we didn't have enough room at the air handler to put the cabinet (air handler is in a relatively narrow nook).
6. Inverter - I'll throw this out there, even though it is probably way beyond what you are thinking about. The highest end technology, and probably the most exciting, in residential HVAC may be inverter compressor based systems (Carrier Greenspeed, Maytag iQ, Lennox XP25). These units use a variable speed compressor (continuously variable from about 40% of capacity to over 100% (that's what they say)) rather than two stage. As such, they are able to deliver even more precise climate control than two stage systems. Increased efficiency also allows them to deliver adequate heat to be used in much more northern latitudes than prior generation heat pump systems. These are the highest $$$ systems available.

Good luck!
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Valuethinker »

wageoghe wrote:Here are some broad strokes of what to learn about and what to consider. These are terms that you will see ad nauseum in forum discussions about HVAC:
1. Single stage vs two stage - Often framed as two stage being more efficient and more comfortable than single stage, but the choice between the two is probably more obvious in some regions than others. Certainly in a more hot and humid climate you "need" two stage more for comfort. In your case, since your cooling season seems relatively short, it may or may not be obvious that a two stage system will be "better" than an efficient single stage.!
I have been near Philadelphia in summer - hot and humid defines the place. The cooling season may be 'relatively short' but it is also brutal.

On the inverter systems they sound great but I would be wary of being the technology's beta tester. You want these things to be around for 10+ years to demonstrate their reliability.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

Inverters have apparently been around for a long time on mini split systems (like Mitsubishi Mr Slim) that are used around they world. They have only recently started coming into mainstream (or maybe "mainstream" since I suspect that their installation numbers are probably still relatively small compare total heat pump units intalled) use in split systems in the US. Carrier's Greenspeed has been around for a few years. Lennox and Maytag have just started selling inverter based systems. It is probably still early days, but it certainly seems like the wave of the (near) future. Maytag actually also offers an inverter based package heat pump, in addition to a split sytem, which Carrier and Lennox do not yet. With this wider adoption (among manufacturers) of inverter technology, I can see this becoming a very viable choice for more people, especially if the inverter units exhibit the promised efficiency and good reliability.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Abe »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:Is it common to negotiate a price for this kind of service?

What should I expect to pay?
Everything's negotiable.
You should get this book and read it. "Secrets of Power Negotiating" by Roger Dawson. Cost around $11.00 on Amazon. Reading that book has saved me thousands of dollars. Not only will it make you a better negotiator, but it will make you aware when others are using negotiating tactics on you.

I recently installed a new 3 ton A/C and furnace in a rental house for $3,769.00 which included all labor, materials, tax and removal of old unit.
Slow and steady wins the race.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

No matter what, I want a high seer high effy. 1 or 2 stage. I will compare the price and see what we want to do.

Heat Pump or AC/Furnace? Those are the two options right?

I also ask if they can install a 4-5in media/filter cabinet? Is that much more $?
Thanks
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Spirit Rider »

wageoghe wrote:Inverters have apparently been around for a long time on mini split systems (like Mitsubishi Mr Slim) that are used around they world. They have only recently started coming into mainstream (or maybe "mainstream" since I suspect that their installation numbers are probably still relatively small compare total heat pump units intalled) use in split systems in the US. Carrier's Greenspeed has been around for a few years. Lennox and Maytag have just started selling inverter based systems. It is probably still early days, but it certainly seems like the wave of the (near) future. Maytag actually also offers an inverter based package heat pump, in addition to a split sytem, which Carrier and Lennox do not yet. With this wider adoption (among manufacturers) of inverter technology, I can see this becoming a very viable choice for more people, especially if the inverter units exhibit the promised efficiency and good reliability.
Yes, I have been following this trend for a couple of years. The Goodman mini-split that I installed myself is coming up on twenty years. I have not had to do any repairs other than replacing the contactor a couple of times. However, if and when it suffers a major failure, I have my eye on a Fujitsu RL S2 21.5 SEER High Efficiency inverter model. Although, with the pressures of the R-410A, I think I'll let a professional install this one.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

Yes, for you your options are going to be heat pump or ac/furnace.

Or, another option is "hybrid" or "dual fuel". This is where you get a heat pump with furnace (typically gas) backup. The heat pump provides heat down to a programmed temp (Can be programmed based on energy costs in your area. Super cheap gas and expensive electric, configure furnace to come on at higher "cold" temp. Middling gas, cheapish electric, configure furnace to come on a lower "cold" temp. I don't know how prices work on these systems, but I have think that they would generally be higher, since there is another piece of equipment in the mix. Since you already have gas and a gas furnace (that you are replacing), this might be a reasonable option. You should at least ask about it.

You can also ask what is the more common system in your area:
1. Heat pump
2. Furnace/AC
3. Hybrid heat pump with furnace backup (I doubt this is common because I think it is a relatively new combination)

My understanding is that the hybrid/dual fuel system is mainly about economics. You are trying to capitalize on the relatively high efficiency of the heat pump at "warmer" temperatures, but avoiding the penalty of trying to run a heat pump at temperatures where it becomes less efficient ($ wise) than a gas furnace (or whatever one's alternate fuel source). In climates where the furnace is expected to operate a lot, people might go with a high efficiency furnace (95-96%). In milder climates, where the furnace is expected to operate infrequently, an 80% efficient furnace is often sufficient.

The most straightforward solutions are going to be heat pump or furnace/AC.

The hybrid system might be reasonable, but it is probably considered to be a more complex solution (and, I would guess, more expensive for the equivalent heating and cooling provided). Certain climates and electric/gas rate combinations probably make this option very attractive in some places and less so in others. It is possible to calculate your expected energy costs based on your local energy costs (electric and gas) and various equipment combinations (maybe your dealer can do this). That might help in choosing or eliminating types of systems.

Most of my comments have been about heat pumps because that is what I have and is what is most common in my area in the south. I had forgotten that you currently have a furnace. I'm not trying to steer you away from a furnace and towards a heat pump, just sharing what knowledge I do have (or think I have).

I'm not sure what a media cabinet will run (since we could not fit one, I didn't end up getting a price), but I think probably $250-400. Note that this is only a cabinet that has a pleated paper filter. No electronics at all. Some people like a washable filter. I don't know much about them.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

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I think Furnace is common near my area. I don't know many houses I have been into that have heat pumps.

This crap is overloading my brain lol. I feel like hiring you guys to do it!

So far my plan is...

1. Get atleast 4 companies to come out and give me a price
2. Lean towards the ones who automatically do a Manual J
3. Ask questions about good, better, best for 1 stage/2 stage
4. Ask about the filter/media cabinet to see if they can do it
5. Get extended warranty if possible (Maybe something I can haggle instead of lower price?)

Thats it for now
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by walkabout »

I think you are on the right track :sharebeer
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by killjoy2012 »

Fieldsy1024 wrote:No matter what, I want a high seer high effy. 1 or 2 stage. I will compare the price and see what we want to do.
Just a few points to keep in mind:
- Efficiency and # of stages are 2 separate things. e.g. you can get a high efficiency single stage, or a low efficiency 2 stage, a he 2 stage, etc.. That said, most manufacturers will only sell certain combos of the 2 - e.g. very few people who are going to pay the price premium for the highest efficiency furnace only want a single stage.
- Efficiency is about operational cost saving. Stages are about comfort - not operating cost. Comfort in terms of noise (from air flow) as well as ability to add/remove humidity from home. Furnaces need longer cycle times to more effectively add/remove humidity while maintaining the home at given set temp.
- A single stage is either 100% on or off. A 2 stage would run at the same 100% setting, as well as a 'low' setting - say 40% of max output. A modulating furnace has anywhere from 3-30+ stages. The big advantage of a modulating furnace is that it has more capability to match the home's heat loss, running the furnace at whatever rate to match and ideally run the longest cycle times... minimizing air flow (noise) and maximizing addition/removal of humidity.
Fieldsy1024 wrote:Heat Pump or AC/Furnace? Those are the two options right?
It depends on your location and the weather extremes there. If you live in the south or in a very moderate climate, such as San Diego, you can probably get away with only having a heat pump for both heating & cooling. However, a heat pump only works down to certain outside temperature - ~30* F or so. I'm in MI, and all homes here either have a furnace + AC (most common) or furnace + heat pump (much less common). The heat pump + furnace just gives you 2 options for heating the home - electric or gas, depending on cost of each and the outside temp. (e.g. use the HP when the outside temp is above 40*, but furnace when lower.) And yes, heat pumps cost significantly more than an AC, so you need to figure out the cost saving & payback. In the north, heat pumps rarely pay for themselves.
Fieldsy1024 wrote:I also ask if they can install a 4-5in media/filter cabinet? Is that much more $?
Yes, you definitely want a standard media filter cabinet included in your solution - Aprilaire, etc. But the question isn't really whether it costs more or is worth it - it's a necessity. The filter isn't there to clean your home's air - it's there to keep all of the dust/dirt from caking up the blower, A coil, and other parts in the furnace. A media filter is very cheap compared to replacing blower motors every couple years.
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Re: Negotiating on a price for heating/ac installation

Post by Fieldsy1024 »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions/tips

It was a hot one yesterday, this month may be a long one sine we don't have AC lol....I keep telling myself it might save us a bunch of money if we wait til October.
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