Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to launch

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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Any chance your step-daughter has ADD?
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Calm Man
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Calm Man »

Bungo,
I was an early commenter but I hadn't realized it was a stepdaughter. There are different varieties of stepchildren. Some you might have come into their lives at a very young age so you are almost like a father. But if you came in when she was older and/or she has a father, I really advise you to let her mother manage this. If I were the kid I wouldn't listen to you and why should I? I had a 20 year old stepdaughter for a few years who moved back in with us. I hated it but I kept my mouth shut and let her mother run it. The blood of children usually outweighs the blood of a spouse if it really comes down to it.
lightheir
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by lightheir »

Bungo wrote:
lightheir wrote:To the OP - just curious, and don't reply if you feel like I'm prying, but you seem like very responsible and fair as well as committed parents. Was there anything in retrospect that you wished you did that would have possibly offset this path of your 19 yr old daughter, or was it simply beyond your control despite repeated efforts to set her straight before this day?
My wife and I have discussed this many times, at great length. At this point, we're pretty satisfied that while we're not perfect parents (who is?), we did everything we could reasonably do: moving into the best school district we could afford, lots of hands-on involvement in her study routine during high school, tutoring (by us and by paid tutors), exam prep courses, summer school to fix problem grades, a fair amount of effort to try to teach time management and budgeting skills, various "what color is your parachute" sorts of resources to help with setting some career and study goals, many discussions about what it takes to succeed at college, and so forth.

Basically, I tried to give the sort of guidance I was given in high school, plus a lot that I wish I was given.

All of this was a massive trial by fire for me as I was single until I married in 2008 and inherited a stepdaughter about to start high school. (At least I avoided the diaper changing stage.) There's always room for second guessing whether one could have done a better job - the answer is always yes, of course - but at some point the student has to take responsibility for his/her educational outcomes. I think we're comfortable with deciding that we have reached that point.
Thank you for the feedback. It does indeed sound like you did everything right.

I'm an MD, and I've been throughly humbled by the lack of control humans actually have on behavior, even with those with similar genetics (like kids). I think most people grow up hugely underestimating both the genetic and the randomness somtimes of human behavior. When I read about the twin studies that were done to try and extract how much was nature vs nurture, in a very good retrospective study done in the midcentury, it was shocking to see that over 80% of it seemed to be purely genetic in terms of overall outcome of the child. Class, wealth, time spent parenting, access to schools, all that nurture stuff we think is crucial had shockingly little effect on overall outcomes. As a parent myself, I remember this and try and enjoy my new daughter for who she is, but accept the fact that she may very well turn out not as I had expected and possibly even in ways that I do not like. I do think it's important to acknowledge this to reduce guilt and blame, and allow for honest discussions of how to manage any problems that come up productively like you're doing.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by HurdyGurdy »

Sticks, but also carrot -- a field of carrot opportunities out there. Summer is a time for young people to do all kinds of work, paid or volunteer.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by cheese_breath »

rainyday1 wrote:I might think about encouraging her to move six hours away and live on her own for a while with no help from you.
This might sound sexist, but I would not encourage my 19 year old daughter or stepdaughter to try to make it on her own six hours away from home. There are a lot of people out there who prey on naïve young girls. You don't want to risk ruining her life to prove a point.
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Bungo
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Bungo »

[Strange, the forum seems to have eaten my previous attempt at posting this, as well as several of my earlier replies. This time around, I copied the text into the clipboard before posting, so let's try again. Sorry if this shows up twice.]
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Since you asked - I think your list of requirements is "over the top OCD style". She's 19, did you launch at 19?
I was studying full time at college, just like her, but I worked hard enough to get decent (if hardly stellar) grades my first year. She failed all but one of her courses, including one based solely on attendance. All her expenses were paid, and she didn't have a job. I went to college too (in a much more demanding major and a much tougher university), and I remember it well enough to know that it's actually kind of hard to get an F in a class. If you just show up and do homework and put forth any effort at all, you will probably get a C or better, maybe a D if you really slack off. To get nearly straight F's is indicative of someone who didn't do any work at all. (Did you do that at 19?) It is not unreasonable to conclude that this is someone who should not be in college right now.
First year of college is tough, moreso for a female from what I hear from friends of mine who have girls. Have you ruled out medical causes first? Depression? I agree with the others, I'd cut her some slack and give her a chance to regroup over the summer.
No evidence of any medical causes or depression. Indeed, she seems a lot more cheerful than I would be in her shoes, and she certainly does not lack self-esteem. It's going to take more than a regrouping over the summer to convince me to roll the dice again. She's only at a state college, but it's still setting me back $12k/semester including housing. I will want to see some serious evidence of maturation and some coherent goals before continuing with that burn rate.
Your list of requirements even after editing is unrealistic - find a job and pay rent! Have you read the newspapers recently, the unemployment rate for those without a college degree is more than double of those who do have at least one degree, if not more. I don't see how flipping hamburgers and manning the fry station is going to help in "launching" her, if she can beat out the competiton to even land that kind of position. Do you have connections, where this job will magically appear so rent can be paid on Saturday? It is the first of the month you know, typically when rent is due.
Well, the first payment isn't due until a month from now. Yes, I do fully expect that she should be able to find a job and earn at least one paycheck before then. The job market may not be red hot, but it's far from hopeless (in Silicon Valley at least), especially for entry-level minimum wage jobs. If she has to apply for a hundred jobs to find one, what's wrong with that? What else does she have to do with her time? Her job is to find a job. I don't think this is unreasonable at all.
I don't say the above to be snarky, but really - it is a heck of a lot more difficult to launch today then it was in my college days and we're not talking eons ago, either. These days, kids aren't getting started until 25-27, 28 or even 30, 31.
How much of this is due to parents enabling this behavior? They're not doing their "kids" any favors by treating them like kids into their thirties!
Would you say she hasn't launched if she graduated school, but then was unable to find employment or found employment but it was of a part-time or per diem nature?
I would expect her to find some kind of job, even if not her dream job, and support herself. She would be in a very privileged position, having graduated with no student debt, so with some frugality should be able to live even on minimum wage.
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Watty
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Watty »

You should consider getting some family counseling together to help work through where you go from here.

You might offer to pay for her to go to some individual counseling, with a counselor of her choice, to help her work through her issues.

When selecting a counselor it can be a good idea to meet with a couple to decide which one would best for you.

It sounded you have the means to pay for her college and money is not real tight so try not to make the money too big of an issue in itself because her dropping out of college and coming home is actually saving you a lot of money. I'm not saying that you should be giving her money for many things, or that she should not have to work, but that is because you want her to become independent not because it is costing you so much for her to live at home for a while.
rec7
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by rec7 »

Bungo I think you mean well but are to focused on working and paying rent. If she were my kid I would be 100% on school and nothing else right now. There will be about 40-60 more years for working and paying rent. I work with a lot of people that were in the military great people but I notice one thing with several of them. They have worked three to six years on average. They all have the GI Bill so school it paid for. I watch many of them go to school but only have seen a few finish. This might not be true all over but it is just what I have seen. It is very hard once you get a little older to go back to school the people that are your age have all moved on. This is also true if a person goes working a job but only worse because then there is no GI Bill to help you. I also have a relative that was in college and started working a full time job. The minute I heard that I knew she would not finish college. It was less than a year later she dropped out. Working and going to school does not work for a lot of people.
Last edited by rec7 on Thu May 30, 2013 9:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Khanmots
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Khanmots »

I second the others that say that it's important to find out *why* she flunked out.

I'll go further and say that you should help her explore some in finding out why. It's easy to say I flunked because I'm too dumb, or partied too hard, or whatever. But it may be something like they hated the material they were studying and so partying or whatnot was an escape... in which case perhaps careful selection of what to study is all that's needed. Or perhaps there's another resolvable reason. Or... it may well be that school really isn't for her. Point is to determine the real *why* and see if it can be addressed.

Perhaps my experience will give you a different perspective. I was a national merit scholar on a nearly full-ride scholarship (that disappeared pretty quickly...) who spent 3 years with grades that were degrading more and more before flunking out with a 1.85GPA. I'd spent the last year or two being evasive whenever asked about school by my parents... and feeling guilty the whole time.

One of the hardest things I had to do was tell my parents that I wouldn't be attending school the next semester because the uni wasn't letting me come back.

I was lucky, my parents didn't kick me to the curb. They helped me figure out *why* I had gone on this decline, and what I could do about it. In my case I was in a major that the further into it I got the more I disliked it. And personally, I had (and still have) a really tough time applying myself to something that I don't enjoy. So I didn't like the courses, wasn't applying myself to them, and so of course I was doing other stuff since there were still 24 hours in a day... hanging out with friends, playing videos games, doing pretty much anything but applying myself to the classes on the material that I didn't like.

In my case, my parents were probably overly supportive. They helped me work through which major I would enjoy and thus would be able to apply myself in. They allowed me to move back in, helped me get transfered into the local university, and ensured I could cover tuition and transportation. They didn't even put restrictions on their help and didn't show any signs of not trusting me.

This second time around went much better. I was (mostly) in classes that interested me. For me this made all the difference (although I did only get Cs in a couple of courses I really disliked...). I wound up graduating with my CSE degree Cum Laude with a 4.0 for the last 2 years of it (those supposedly hard courses were interesting!) and have a quite successful career with all sorts of amazing opportunities opening up for me.

That said, my 3 years spent flunking out wasn't wasted. I learned some hard lessons about myself that, in the years since, have helped me avoid making some choices that would have been horrible mistakes.

Really though, the point of all this is find out why she flunked out. It may be that the real reason behind it is something that can be resolved. Or not. Just don't go into it assuming it's hopeless, sometimes we'll surprise you and make you proud of us again :happy


And now... I think I need to call my parents and thank them. Again. And it's dusty in here or something... :wink:
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Cheerful you say? Well, maybe she's happy to be home or maybe what you are dealing with is someone who's bipolar. Cheerfulness and the world is their oyster attitude goes hand in hand with that disease - I have relatives who have it and without medication that is their sunny disposition on life, even if it is farthest from reality.
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lightheir
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by lightheir »

Joining the peanut gallery but my 2 cents:

- The nominal rent charged is a VERY good idea in my book. The point isn't about saving money at all - it's about instilling a basic sense of responsibility in her, and making her aware at a fundamental level that even acts of daily living require expenditures, something that she clearly doesn't have an appreciation of yet. She will likely be shocked at how hard it is to earn $200/month and how painful and long hours some of the entry level jobs she takes on are. (Also more motivation for her to get an education.)

- Education will ultimately be the priority above all, but she's clearly not in a stage now where she's receptive to it. I think until she learns the hard way (as through entry level job experience) she'll just squander opportunities.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Khanmots »

I should probably note, that I'd thrown a good chunk of my own money at school and had been living like a pauper taking as little money from them as I could (maybe a couple thousand a year). After I moved back home my parents also supported (pushed for even) my decision to stop working while I was taking classes and only work summers... with them chipping in significantly more to help cover what I now wasn't earning.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Fallible »

Khanmots wrote:I second the others that say that it's important to find out *why* she flunked out.
...
I may have missed this, but do we have her own thoughts/comments here on why she flunked? What reasons has she given?
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mac808
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by mac808 »

Atilla wrote:Good Lord. Kid flunks college and returns home? That's insane. How bout returning to a place called somewhere else and dealing with life? No effing way would the kid be allowed back here if he/she flunked out. They invented cheap crappy apartments and roommates for a reason. Feel free to stop by on Sunday for chicken dinner. Heck- bring a worthless friend and drink my beer while you wash your dirty laundry. More than happy to be the dadly host. And when it's done - get out and see you next week. Good lord what is this world coming to?
I think the amount of help offered can and should depend heavily on the type of child and their own personal situation and challenges.

Having said that, you do realize that what you wrote out is at odds with how families have lived for thousands of years. It's the American experience of moving out at 18 and never returning home that is a unique, new development in the course of human events.
Last edited by mac808 on Thu May 30, 2013 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jridger2011
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by jridger2011 »

My own family has this kind of issue with not gearing up and taking school seriously. Most of the time it is just not studying and horsing around. But since you do not mention how well she did in high school and what her strengths are, it is too difficult to assume. Yes, she does need to get a job and pay her share, it will teach her how to move out at some point the right way, but you're also not figuring out why she's failing.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by rainyday1 »

cheese_breath wrote:
rainyday1 wrote:I might think about encouraging her to move six hours away and live on her own for a while with no help from you.
This might sound sexist, but I would not encourage my 19 year old daughter or stepdaughter to try to make it on her own six hours away from home. There are a lot of people out there who prey on naïve young girls. You don't want to risk ruining her life to prove a point.
I think you can get into life-ruining trouble at home just as easily. You have a lot less time on your hands to get into trouble when you're working a couple of jobs trying to make ends meet. And you have a lot less money to spend out in bars or wherever when you have to pay real rent and food costs. My best grades in college came when I was working 40+ hours a week. I enjoyed earning the paycheck and had zero time to go out drinking. All my time was spent working or studying. It forced me to focus and manage my time much more effectively. The reality is that even when you're not working, you're certainly not spending all your time studying (at least I wasn't...I'm sure the docs probably did study all the time, but not those of us who were less motivated).

It might be good to cut her loose for a little while and let her struggle. Let her see how hard it is to be an adult. I realize this is easy for me to say because it's not my child and much harder to actually do!! I don't really know what I would do in your situation, just trying to throw out ideas.

To the posters who say you should focus 100% on school, I think you're throwing good money after bad unless the student is motivated (on her own). Otherwise, they just go through the motions, but they don't really gain much. Then they graduate and still have no real direction. Maybe it's better for her to find her direction now before she commits to a major and realizes she hates that field?? I don't know the answer.


editing to add that my situation was almost the same as Alec's. My parents let me live at home while I floundered and didn't charge me rent. Their only requirement was that I work full-time. I just thought since she wanted to move out, let her. If she wants to live there, let her (if you want to).
Last edited by rainyday1 on Thu May 30, 2013 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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alec
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by alec »

Bungo,

To give you some perspective from the child's angle, I was the kid that came home from college after failing the first try. After I came home I took a job with the local landscaper for 1.5 years while living at home. My parents didn't make me pay rent or anything, but were pretty supportive. The first try at college was a real blow to the old self confidence and that took a while to get back. I just stopped going to classes (I was pretty immature).

After a year of cutting grass, I finally realized that I needed to finish college. My parents had been telling me this all along, but, being 20, I kept ignoring and procrastinating. I took some community college classes while cutting grass and then enrolled at a local college to finish out college, while commuting from home. The interview with the Asst Dean at the local college was pretty funny as he was comparing my high school transcript (straight A's) to my rather horrible college transcript.

Every child's different, and you obviously have more insight into your daughter, but I was pretty immature about things (18-20 year olds can be pretty immature). I constantly paid bills late, or ignored them all together for months, bounced checks, and didn't really care what my parents thought about it. I'd be prepared for lots of late or unpaid bills, sometimes just to spite the parents. I still did things just to piss off my parents into my late 20's.

One thing that did really help was seeing a therapist just to talk about things. I resisted for a long time before I went, but that really helped me out.

Good luck. :beer <-- a few of those might help. :wink:

-Alec
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Random Musings
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Random Musings »

Perhaps the daughter is just not interested in going to college at this point in her life. But that means that she has to be employed and pay bills, like any other working adult.

Is there anything that she is passionate about?

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Bungo
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Bungo »

Calm Man wrote:Bungo,
I was an early commenter but I hadn't realized it was a stepdaughter. There are different varieties of stepchildren. Some you might have come into their lives at a very young age so you are almost like a father. But if you came in when she was older and/or she has a father, I really advise you to let her mother manage this. If I were the kid I wouldn't listen to you and why should I? I had a 20 year old stepdaughter for a few years who moved back in with us. I hated it but I kept my mouth shut and let her mother run it. The blood of children usually outweighs the blood of a spouse if it really comes down to it.
It's not an unreasonable suggestion, but every situation is different. My wife doesn't want me to take a hands-off approach, I think in part because that is what the biological father has done, and in part because I am the one paying all the bills. It would certainly be easier from my point of view to let my wife handle this, but it's not the approach we agreed on when we got married.

By the way, I just had a discussion with my wife about making some of the rule changes discussed in this thread, but she vetoed them as too spineless. Her inclination is that some whip-cracking is in order. :D
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Post by Curlyq »

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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by cheese_breath »

Bungo wrote:
Calm Man wrote:Bungo,
I was an early commenter but I hadn't realized it was a stepdaughter. There are different varieties of stepchildren. Some you might have come into their lives at a very young age so you are almost like a father. But if you came in when she was older and/or she has a father, I really advise you to let her mother manage this. If I were the kid I wouldn't listen to you and why should I? I had a 20 year old stepdaughter for a few years who moved back in with us. I hated it but I kept my mouth shut and let her mother run it. The blood of children usually outweighs the blood of a spouse if it really comes down to it.
It's not an unreasonable suggestion, but every situation is different. My wife doesn't want me to take a hands-off approach, I think in part because that is what the biological father has done, and in part because I am the one paying all the bills. It would certainly be easier from my point of view to let my wife handle this, but it's not the approach we agreed on when we got married.

By the way, I just had a discussion with my wife about making some of the rule changes discussed in this thread, but she vetoed them as too spineless. Her inclination is that some whip-cracking is in order. :D
I hate to say it, but it looks like wifey wants you to be the bad guy here. She wants super strict rules, and she wants you to impose / enforce them. Lose - lose for you.

edit: I also have stepchildren, all grown up and moved out now. But I learned a wife can turn on you real fast when you try disciplining her children even though she told you to. Be very, very careful here.
Last edited by cheese_breath on Thu May 30, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lightheir
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by lightheir »

Bungo wrote:
Calm Man wrote:Bungo,
I was an early commenter but I hadn't realized it was a stepdaughter. There are different varieties of stepchildren. Some you might have come into their lives at a very young age so you are almost like a father. But if you came in when she was older and/or she has a father, I really advise you to let her mother manage this. If I were the kid I wouldn't listen to you and why should I? I had a 20 year old stepdaughter for a few years who moved back in with us. I hated it but I kept my mouth shut and let her mother run it. The blood of children usually outweighs the blood of a spouse if it really comes down to it.
It's not an unreasonable suggestion, but every situation is different. My wife doesn't want me to take a hands-off approach, I think in part because that is what the biological father has done, and in part because I am the one paying all the bills. It would certainly be easier from my point of view to let my wife handle this, but it's not the approach we agreed on when we got married.

By the way, I just had a discussion with my wife about making some of the rule changes discussed in this thread, but she vetoed them as too spineless. Her inclination is that some whip-cracking is in order. :D
I do agree that whip-cracking is in order. Fortunately for you though, you don't have to be a militant whip-cracker. You just need to gently educate her about what her expenses are, what she's expected to cover, and if she's not onboard or thinks she can do better, well, go for it. She'll be crawling back home with a new attitude soon enough if she chooses that route. Life is hard enough without resources and an education to require any extra harshness on top.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by btenny »

Bungo I think you need to try to find out why your step daughter got bad grades and try to understand where she is coming from emotionally. Then you can make better judgements on what to ask her to do next. Yes I think she needs to get a part time job for sure but maybe she should also go to community college locally while she grows up and matures some more.

My son got a 0.0 GPA his first semester in college also. He went away to college and spent the entire semester driving back home for days at a time to see his girl friend and party. He was almost never at school as I found out later. His college was 3 hours away and his GF was a senior in high school so he would stay with some of his friends locally or stay with his GF. He was also into the "weed culture" you mentioned your SD talks about.

So I suspect your SD is smoking some grass and does the semi-stoner thing when she is high as it curbs ambition and makes clear thinking non-existant. So I think she just does not see a need to even go to class or do any homework. Then she is likely spending lots of time with her local friends near your home thus she is happy to be back home. Plus with you and her Mom just getting together a few years ago makes for tough family dynamics. I suspect she sees you as the opposition, not a father figure or even a helper even though you are doing tons for her.

And as far as forcing her to get a full time job be careful what you wish for. My son started working after that bad semester and made so much money doing tips driven jobs that he lost most desire to go to college. He consistantly made great money parking cars and waiting tables and doing hotel consiere stuff so he saw no need to "work his butt off going to school and listening to some old fart". Did I mention making $500 per night in tips at the car races? Eventually with lots of probing by me and his mom he got a Associate Degree from the local community college but now wishes he had stayed in college for his four year degree as it would open many doors for him now that he is much much older....

Bill
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Khanmots »

Curlyq wrote:In the end, however, it took me until I was nearly 30 to graduate from college. There was something else wrong with me. I've never determined exactly what; one psychologist tested me and said that I had ADD, but I never had any scans or other diagnoses. I still struggle at times with lack of focus, organization, and follow-through.
This may not be something wrong with you...

I struggle with much the same thing at times, but it's based on what I'm working on. When I'm working on something where I have to be creative in coming up with a solution to a complex problem focus and such is usually no problem and time flies by. When it comes to working on something where it's all figured out and I know what to do and just need to do it... then focus is really hard to keep regardless of task.

This isn't something "wrong" with me. It's just a different personality type. Same with my lack of (apparent) organization and general messiness.

If there's types of stuff that you have no problems focusing on then perhaps the answer is to find a way to direct one's schooling and career such that those are the types of work you're asked to do...
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by lightheir »

btenny wrote:Bungo I think you need to try to find out why your step daughter got bad grades and try to understand where she is coming from emotionally. Then you can make better judgements on what to ask her to do next. Yes I think she needs to get a part time job for sure but maybe she should also go to community college locally while she grows up and matures some more.

My son got a 0.0 GPA his first semester in college also. He went away to college and spent the entire semester driving back home for days at a time to see his girl friend and party. He was almost never at school as I found out later. His college was 3 hours away and his GF was a senior in high school so he would stay with some of his friends locally or stay with his GF. He was also into the "weed culture" you mentioned your SD talks about.

So I suspect your SD is smoking some grass and does the semi-stoner thing when she is high as it curbs ambition and makes clear thinking non-existant. So I think she just does not see a need to even go to class or do any homework. Then she is likely spending lots of time with her local friends near your home thus she is happy to be back home. Plus with you and her Mom just getting together a few years ago makes for tough family dynamics. I suspect she sees you as the opposition, not a father figure or even a helper even though you are doing tons for her.

And as far as forcing her to get a full time job be careful what you wish for. My son started working after that bad semester and made so much money doing tips driven jobs that he lost most desire to go to college. He consistantly made great money parking cars and waiting tables and doing hotel consiere stuff so he saw no need to "work his butt off going to school and listening to some old fart". Did I mention making $500 per night in tips at the car races? Eventually with lots of probing by me and his mom he got a Associate Degree from the local community college but now wishes he had stayed in college for his four year degree as it would open many doors for him now that he is much much older....

Bill
To me, there is NOTHING wrong with someone who was getting a 0.0GPA and not even attending college, and then falling in to work that occasionally payed $500 per night. Sure, it might not last forever, but that's a huge step up from where he was slightly before that. Sheesh, I know a lot of ivy league grads who would be thrilled with an entry level job that occasionally payed that much.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by mbenz1997 »

As someone in their early 30s with no children, I'm not sure how qualified my advice is, but I would agree with finding out why she failed out and supporting/pushing her to go back. I've had friends who "failed to launch" - one of my co-residents during training readily admitted to being a total "loser" in high school. His grades were terrible, he would get kicked out all the time, and he generally didn't care about anything but himself and having fun. He eventually enrolled in the military, went to college, med school, etc etc. I had other friends who went circuitous routes who found there way as well. The people who I know that dropped out and had potential to do great things have regretted it...
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by frugaltype »

Fallible wrote:
Bungo wrote:... This is far from her first episode of poor grades, although it is the most spectacular incident so far. She may not share all the details of her private life with us, but she is fairly open, e.g. she takes a keen interest in telling us about the weed culture among her group of friends, etc. I am pretty sure it's a case of too much fun, not enough studying, and a general lack of motivation. Hardly unique among college students.
Have you talked with any of her teachers? Did she have a school counselor? Could you, your wife, and your daughter meet together with them to discuss at least the academic side of the matter? A good education is the key to a good future for her and now that you've set the household/financial rules, perhaps focusing on the reasons for her poor grades and apparent lack of motivation could help prepare her when she resumes her education.
That's what's bothering me about all this, in addition to other things. They have no idea why she didn't do well. This seems to be a very authoritarian/no communication situation.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by frugaltype »

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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Bungo »

cheese_breath wrote: I hate to say it, but it looks like wifey wants you to be the bad guy here. She wants super strict rules, and she wants you to impose / enforce them. Lose - lose for you.

edit: I also have stepchildren, all grown up and moved out now. But I learned a wife can turn on you real fast when you try disciplining her children even though she told you to. Be very, very careful here.
This is very good advice. It has been a learning process during the five years we've been married, trying to find the right balance regarding enforcement of rules. I think we have found that balance, but it hasn't been fully stress-tested, so your words of caution are well advised.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Christine_NM »

Bungo wrote: we did everything we could reasonably do: moving into the best school district we could afford, lots of hands-on involvement in her study routine during high school, tutoring (by us and by paid tutors), exam prep courses, summer school to fix problem grades, a fair amount of effort to try to teach time management and budgeting skills, various "what color is your parachute" sorts of resources to help with setting some career and study goals, many discussions about what it takes to succeed at college, and so forth.

Basically, I tried to give the sort of guidance I was given in high school, plus a lot that I wish I was given.
Ah. Is this first year of college the only thing she has ever done without your assistance?

I have no kids, but I remember that I had no assistance, ever, with elementary - high school homework, entrance exams, summer schools or any help with finding high school jobs. Everything I did, I did on my own. Maybe would have done a lot better with help, but my parents were not equipped to help me. So it was all my own effort. Freshman year was the toughest adjustment I ever had to make. No help there either.

So is this her failure or your failure? I think if you had invested less of your own effort and let her decide and do more on her own in high school, she would have had what it takes to squeak through the first year of independence.

I don't see how she can grow up under your thumb. Her only hope will be to leave and live on her own. If that is what you really want, why not let her get a job and an apartment not too near home. You help with the rent for a while. If she really wants college, let her decide what kind and when. This is not your decision to make.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Jim Profit »

btenny wrote: So I suspect your SD is smoking some grass and does the semi-stoner thing when she is high as it curbs ambition and makes clear thinking non-existant. So I think she just does not see a need to even go to class or do any homework. Then she is likely spending lots of time with her local friends near your home thus she is happy to be back home.
This is the first thing that popped into my mind when I started reading this thread, that she possibly got into drugs while at college. You might want to do a little investigating in case it is still going on; going to be tough to make meaningful progress if so.
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Post by Bungo »

lightheir wrote: I do agree that whip-cracking is in order. Fortunately for you though, you don't have to be a militant whip-cracker. You just need to gently educate her about what her expenses are, what she's expected to cover, and if she's not onboard or thinks she can do better, well, go for it.
This is exactly the message I'm trying to convey to her.
She'll be crawling back home with a new attitude soon enough if she chooses that route. Life is hard enough without resources and an education to require any extra harshness on top.
Yes, it is. We can say these things to her until we're blue in the face, but the only way these lessons are likely to sink in is for her to experience it for herself. It is my hope that requiring her to pay a nominal rent (hence necessitating her obtaining and keeping a job) while continuing to live with us will be a relatively mild way for her to start down that road. But if she wants to take the harder road (moving out), perhaps the learning experience will be that much more effective.
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Post by Bungo »

Fallible wrote: I may have missed this, but do we have her own thoughts/comments here on why she flunked? What reasons has she given?
No, we have her assertions that she thought she was doing fine and that this was wholly unexpected. But that was a common refrain with her throughout high school (that and "everyone got bad grades in that class" and "the teacher didn't like me" and so forth) whenever there were issues with grades. I've never known her to really own up to her own responsibility for poor performance, nor to offer us any insight into why she thinks she performed poorly; it's always either bad luck or someone else's fault. I'm sure she doesn't actually believe that, but I guess it's a coping mechanism.

So we're left with extrapolating our own observations from the high school era.

We know for certain, having witnessed it firsthand, that she isn't very self-motivating and seems to do best when she is with a motivated peer group. (I was somewhat like this at her age, too, so I can understand it.) It was mainly for this reason that we encouraged her to attend a four year college instead of community college, in the hope that she would have a better peer group.

Her study skills are also fairly weak and she doesn't have a very strong work ethic - a less charitable but accurate statement would be that she's fairly lazy, but hey, so am I. But this has always been the case, and has typically led to results more like her first semester college performance (C average), not an outright failure like this. So I don't think that she lacks the ability to succeed.

My best guess is that she simply gave up at some point this semester and stopped attending classes altogether. If this is indeed true, I doubt she'll tell us so for the next 5+ years, so it's only a guess. I'm not sure what was different this semester vs. last: I know there was a boyfriend in the mix, and she has admitted to a lot of weed smoking, but those factors are very common for most college students and don't usually translate to a meltdown like this.

Wish I knew more, but based on past experience with her, if there is a root cause, she's not likely to tell us what it was anytime soon.
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Post by Bungo »

jridger2011 wrote:But since you do not mention how well she did in high school and what her strengths are, it is too difficult to assume.
Yes, people have asked about this a few times in this thread. The answer is that her bottom-line high school performance was pretty decent: over a 3.0 GPA. But it would have been closer to a 2.0 if we hadn't forced her to retake several classes during the summer, and paid for quite a bit of tutoring. Her SAT and ACT scores were pretty good - I don't remember the exact numbers but she was in the top third, so I know she is underachieving relative to her potential. I think if she can find the right motivation, she should be able to do well. I'm sure this a very common problem with students (lack of motivation), including me in my first two years of college.

But lack of motivation leading to mediocre performance is one thing; a few C grades in your early years aren't going to kill your transcript. Lack of motivation leading to an epic fail is a lot harder to make up for once you get your mojo, unless you go back and retake all those failed classes. So, unfortunately for her, even if she was supremely unmotivated by the first year material, she'll have to redo it all if she ever goes back to school, if she wants to bring herself back into good academic standing.
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Post by Bungo »

btenny wrote: So I suspect your SD is smoking some grass and does the semi-stoner thing when she is high as it curbs ambition and makes clear thinking non-existant. So I think she just does not see a need to even go to class or do any homework.
I know she smokes weed, but I don't know to what degree. I don't have any ethical/moral objection to this (keep it out of my house, though), but if it impairs performance then of course it's a problem. Part of being a successful college student (and human) is to learn how to balance these kinds of distractions with your responsibilities. We're not so interested in trying to pinpoint exactly which distraction derailed her; the end result is pretty much the same regardless.
Then she is likely spending lots of time with her local friends near your home thus she is happy to be back home. Plus with you and her Mom just getting together a few years ago makes for tough family dynamics. I suspect she sees you as the opposition, not a father figure or even a helper even though you are doing tons for her.
All true, I'm sure.
And as far as forcing her to get a full time job be careful what you wish for. My son started working after that bad semester and made so much money doing tips driven jobs that he lost most desire to go to college. He consistantly made great money parking cars and waiting tables and doing hotel consiere stuff so he saw no need to "work his butt off going to school and listening to some old fart". Did I mention making $500 per night in tips at the car races? Eventually with lots of probing by me and his mom he got a Associate Degree from the local community college but now wishes he had stayed in college for his four year degree as it would open many doors for him now that he is much much older....
Well, we're just hoping to find something that will motivate her. If she can get excited about any kind of job, that will be a huge step forward in my opinion. If at some point our biggest challenge is trying to lure her back to college from a job she enjoys and which pays well, that's the kind of problem I won't mind at all.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by worknut »

I suggest you charge her at least $400 a month for rent. If your daughter never had a job before this will show her how hard it is to make ends meet for someone work for minimum wage. May be this will be her motivation to get an education.
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Post by Bungo »

Christine_NM wrote: Ah. Is this first year of college the only thing she has ever done without your assistance?
We tried to give her whatever support she appeared to need in terms of paying for tutors, and if she ever asked me to check her homework or read her essays or whatever, I was happy to do so. But I wouldn't do it without her asking, and certainly I wouldn't do the work for her. We did force her to retake several high school courses that she got D's or F's in, and she probably wouldn't have done so without being forced. She would not have made it into a four-year college without this assistance. So in that sense, yes, the first year of college is the first time we were completely uninvolved in her academics.
So is this her failure or your failure? I think if you had invested less of your own effort and let her decide and do more on her own in high school, she would have had what it takes to squeak through the first year of independence. I don't see how she can grow up under your thumb.
It's our failure, to the extent that we made her jump through just enough hoops that she was able to get into a four-year college. But the alternative would most likely have been living with us and attending community college, where she would have been much more "under our thumb." So it's not as black-and-white as you're suggesting.
Her only hope will be to leave and live on her own.
I believe this is true. We had hoped that sending her away to college would give her the opportunity to do this the easy way. If I have conveyed the impression that we are happy to have her back "under our thumb," then I have done a poor job communicating. We would have been very happy had she told us that she had an internship or summer job or whatever this summer, and we would have helped pay her living expenses wherever that job might be. She must not find it too uncomfortable here with us, because she chose to come back.
If that is what you really want, why not let her get a job and an apartment not too near home. You help with the rent for a while.
But there's the rub. If I sign or co-sign a lease, then I'm on the hook when/if she doesn't pay. This could easily devolve into a repeat of the college experience, where she decides she doesn't feel like working anymore and we still pay the bill. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
If she really wants college, let her decide what kind and when. This is not your decision to make.
Of course it's my decision to make, if she wants me to pay for it. No one is stopping her from returning to college on her own dime.
Last edited by Bungo on Fri May 31, 2013 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by BestWishes »

OP, you pretty much wrote our story. When our daughter was about the same age as your daughter, she was not motivated or interested in education at all. She just wanted to hang out and have fun. We tried everything we know how, most of them you listed like tutoring by us, tutoring group, private tutoring, etc. We gave her many options including community college, etc. We set many rules and she broke most of them. We spent lots of time with her on time management, money management but she is just not mature enough or responsible enough. It was a very tense situation for all of us. She didn't like living with us and we didn't like living with her.

Finally we told her if she wants to live with us she must follow our rules. Otherwise she has to move out and we will help her. She wanted to move out. We helped her find a job, find a room, pay for the room deposit and rent for several months. We told her we will continue to help her financially if she would take at least one class, any class at a community college. She didn't want to so eventually we stopped paying for her rent. We told her if you don't go to school at all, you should work full time and support yourself.

Fast forward a couple years, just last week, she told me she is tired of working minimum wage jobs and wanted to go back to school.

From real experience in the past couple years, in Silicon Valley, it is very easy to find a minimum wage job. Daughter has always been able to find minimum wage jobs in a few weeks. She got fire in several months on her first 3 or 4 jobs she had. She never had trouble finding another one. The current job lasted about a year now. I think it is her 5th or 6th.

Being on her own (mostly) has given her a very different perspective in life. She learned to be more responsible and probably matured faster. Also our house was a lot less stressful without her here. We spent so much resource on her that we felt our other children were being neglected.

Hope everything will work out for you, your wife and stepdaughter.
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Post by Bungo »

BestWishes wrote: Being on her own (mostly) has given her a very different perspective in life. She learned to be more responsible and probably matured faster. Also our house was a lot less stressful without her here. We spent so much resource on her that we felt our other children were being neglected.

Hope everything will work out for you, your wife and stepdaughter.
Thanks very much for sharing your story - very similar indeed to ours. I'm glad to hear that your daughter has been able to find jobs without difficulty here in Silicon Valley, and that the time she has spent working minimum wage jobs has given her some valuable perspective and helped her grow up. This is exactly what we are hoping for with my stepdaughter. Best wishes (or is it BestWishes) for the future!

I also want to thank everyone else who has been posting - it is very helpful to read such a variety of perspectives as I'm entering these uncharted waters. Everyone has raised interesting comments and/or questions. Lack of a reply on my part doesn't mean I disagree, I just don't want to completely dominate this thread with my responses.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Angel »

I suggest your wife talk to her daughter more to find out what the problems really are. It sounds like your stepdaughter didn't really want to go to college. College is not for everyone. Maybe in time she will decide to take some classes but in the meantime she can look for a job. She is still young and I think you are being a bit hard on her. I think your wife should handle this one primarily. Give your stepdaughter a chance to get a job, follow rules, etc.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by desertbanshee »

I don't think moving home at 19 is by any means a failure to launch, nor do I believe you need to fear she will never try her wings again.
College can be overwhelming. Make a trip down to the local community college where she probably will qualify for financial aid. She may not need to use the gpa from the other school if she is not transferring the credits. She can qualify for Pell grants and the like all on her own, she just fills out a fafsa form online. A 2 year college is so much more affordable and can earn her a certificate or associate's degree to get a job right when she gets out, or if she wants she can then transfer the hours and get her bachelor's. Sometimes smaller steps lead to more success. Kind regards.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Christine_NM »

Bungo -

Thanks for your reply a few posts back. I hoped I wasn't being too harsh -- it's difficult to convey real feelings in a thread like this. I wish you and your family the best with whatever arrangement you come to over the next year or so.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by retired recently »

Bungo,

Sorry to hear of your problems and I hope everything turns out well. I have a 15 year old daughter, who lives with her mother several states away, that is doing pretty well in high school for the most part. She is not perfect and is beginning to assert herself...sometimes making bad choices...but all-in-all she is doing pretty well.

I have a niece whose father did basically what you are doing and I remember thinking he was doing the right thing at the time. She moved in with a guy, pregnant, he left her, she came back home with child...today I am sure he wishes he handled it differently as he basically helps support her and her two kids...not saying he made a mistake or that things would have turned out any better but one always wonders...

What if she does not pay rent? Phone is easy you can cut it off but will you ultimately kick her out w/o a place to live? Again, it can be a great learning experience if it works out but she could also make some very bad choices that could impact the rest of her life or end her life. If you threaten and do not follow through then it seems you have "lost" as she would know you do not mean it or are not willing to make the tough choices. I always hesitate to make ultimatums or make sure I am prepared to follow through and realize the consequences.

Perhaps, instead of rent, she should know the "rules" (tidy, no staying out late, etc) and since she is probably facing a life of labor, she does laundry, dishes, cooks, cleans, runs errands, washes cars, etc in lieu of rent, unless of course, she can pay the rent. I know it is probably best for all if she moves out but at the same time it seems she may need the comfort of knowing there is always "home". Knowing I had a family helped me during life as there were times it did not look like things would turn out well for me. (I dropped out of college a semester after mediocre grades and a DWI...best thing I ever did...dad never threatened me with anything, instead let me work it out for myself what life would be w/o a degree)

I am not sure how easy your daughter is to reason with but maybe talking to her about why she needs to "contribute" would help, as opposed to giving her a list of what she must do.

Good luck and please keep us posted as many of us are facing or expect to face similar issues...and clearly what works for one may not work for all...
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Wannaretireearly »

OP: good luck, some ppl take longer to mature
All: this thread is interesting, but scares the crap out of me as I have 2 little ones ( bet I'm not the only one!).
Parenting def trumps all other jobs!

to those who shared similar experiences, anything you would have done differently (or wanted your parents to do differently) at a younger age? I have this theory that parenting time well spent with kids from about 8 thru about middle school can really help shape a person for the better. After about 14, kids thoughts are well formed (better or worse) and any change after that takes longer, and mostly needs to come from the kid - I.e. parents influence is less after about 14.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by mikestorm »

I'd like to offer (perhaps) some persepctive from her point of view as at 19 I was in the exact same place.

I blew a four year, full tuition scholarship. I had only completed one semester. In today's dollars at that particular university that's $155K all told. I simply wasn't mature enough to handle college and (allegedly) just like your daughter, I stopped going.

I started working at a bank. Pay was a bit better than the mall. Many banks offer a tuition reimbursement program. After a year or so, I took advantage of it. It was $3000 a year but if you go to community college and only take 1-3 courses at a time, that goes far. I took my time, taking night/weekend courses, and eventually earned my associates degree. My parents charged me token rent (I think it was $150) and allowed me to stay as long as I continued to work and go to school. I then transferred those credits back to the same college I washed out of a few years prior to obtain the same degree (I had some emotional demons to exercize) and at 26 finally got my bachelor's, a full four years after my peers.

Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for her to go back to her college town UNLESS she plans to attend. All her friends are still firmly on their life path and moving forward. She would just be a hanger-on. If she moves, it won't be long before she figures that out. I was in a similar situation (my college was in my hometown) and that's how I perceived myself. To say it was hard on the ego would be an understatement.

I'm hopeful she hasn't given up on college, but at the same time she probably feels really badly and is probably internally down on herself (even if she's not externally manifesting it). At the time, my mom never let an opportunity go by to throw it back in my face that I was a college dropout (nurturing family, mine) and I felt horrible (sidenote: when I did earn my degree, she actually once said that the reason was due to all her 'reinforcement'; I moved out that month).

I guess my point is as frustrated as you and your wife might be, she's probably not doing too much better. Cut her some slack for (tops) a year or so to let her get her bearings, let the consequences of her actions sink in, and perhaps make preparations to give college anohter go.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by Jill07 »

I recommend Boomerang Kids by Carl Pickhardt.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by surveyor »

While a bit embarassing, I share my story whenever I can because I think it can help both parents and students. I went to college knowing what I wanted to do. After begging my way into probationary status (nearly expelled) I graduated four years later with two engineering degrees. Two items that helped me were that I knew what I wanted to do and it was almost taken away due to my laziness.

I suspect the lack of knowing what she wants to do is the reason she can't overcome her laziness. You can charge her rent, make up all the rules, etc. and it won't make a difference until she figures out what the goal is. Treating symptoms instead of getting to the cause. Earning a college degree for the sake of a piece of paper doesn't equal a career and has driven many to misery and destitude. While I hope my own children aspire to be more than plumbers or beauticians both are respectable careers that can provide for an adequate life. I wish your family the best and hope she figures this out.
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Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by VictoriaF »

Bungo wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:If she has a child (within or outside marriage), you may end up supporting her forever.
This scenario is among my worst nightmares, but to me it seems a separate issue. She could equally well become pregnant whether or not she is at college.
The commonality between the two issues is what's going through your step-daughter's mind. If she feels stuck and oppressed at home, she is more likely to look for an escape. That will increase the probability of her getting into destructive relationships.

If she is in college and sees a clear path to her personal freedom, the probability of self-destructive behaviors is lower.

And so while the issues seem separate, the risk of nightmare outcomes is higher if she does not go to college.

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Post by fatlittlepig »

Bungo wrote:
lightheir wrote:To the OP - just curious, and don't reply if you feel like I'm prying, but you seem like very responsible and fair as well as committed parents. Was there anything in retrospect that you wished you did that would have possibly offset this path of your 19 yr old daughter, or was it simply beyond your control despite repeated efforts to set her straight before this day?
My wife and I have discussed this many times, at great length. At this point, we're pretty satisfied that while we're not perfect parents (who is?), we did everything we could reasonably do: moving into the best school district we could afford, lots of hands-on involvement in her study routine during high school, tutoring (by us and by paid tutors), exam prep courses, summer school to fix problem grades, a fair amount of effort to try to teach time management and budgeting skills, various "what color is your parachute" sorts of resources to help with setting some career and study goals, many discussions about what it takes to succeed at college, and so forth.

Basically, I tried to give the sort of guidance I was given in high school, plus a lot that I wish I was given.

All of this was a massive trial by fire for me as I was single until I married in 2008 and inherited a stepdaughter about to start high school. (At least I avoided the diaper changing stage.) There's always room for second guessing whether one could have done a better job - the answer is always yes, of course - but at some point the student has to take responsibility for his/her educational outcomes. I think we're comfortable with deciding that we have reached that point.
Maybe the problem lies deeper like the way you referred to her as something you inherited, like a object that you got stuck with rather than another human being. No offense man, you posted about your personal life just making an observation.
fatlittlepig
guitarguy
Posts: 2191
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Adult "child" moved back home - avoiding failure to laun

Post by guitarguy »

I have a question for the OP. Respectfully, it seems like your stepdaughter was "handed" everything growing up, having never had a job. Car, cell phone, spending money for clothes or whatever the case...was this all just given to her without having to earn it...? Do you think she has a high sense of entitlement, i.e. the "I don't have anything to worry about...it'll just get handed to me" attitude? (I don't mean any of this to be condescending in any way.) To me it seems like this may be the case if you've always paid for everything for her.

Personally, losing my father at age 11 and coming from a rather poor home where Mom was a stay-at-home Mom until Dad died, then afterward worked her ass off to raise 3 boys, I worked for everything I've ever had. I've had a job since I was 14 bagging groceries and on up from there. Chores and such around the house, babysitting younger brothers, all that was (unfortunately for me) done free of charge. Mom loaned me 1/3 of what it took to buy my first car and I paid it back within 1-2 years or so. I never had any help with homework, paying for college (still have some loans left to prove it), certainly never had a paid for cell phone, etc. All of my education on how to budget, pay for things, save money, etc, that all came from me. I only WISH I would've had the kind of hands on parenting that it seems you guys have given to your stepdaughter, but certainly don't fault Mom for not being able to provide it. After all, she was busy trying to make sure we had food on the table. Anyhow, to avoid digressing too much, maybe being "forced" to get a job and start earning some things for herself is necessary to kick her into gear. Once she sees how difficult it is to have what you want when you have to work for it, it'll get her motivated.

That said, a good friend of mine dropped out of college early, spent like 10 years bar tending and working minimum wage jobs, hanging out and having fun. He went back to college and became an engineer at 31 or so. So don't give up on her (which it doesn't sound like you are). As lots of others have said, some people are just late bloomers!

Best of luck with you situation and whatever you decide to do.

P.S. I agree that the rules you stated are a bit complex and legalistic. Simplify as much as possible and I think it will be beneficial to all parties.
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